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grefstad

The nonsens of "survive", then strengthen in the summer

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Am I the only one reacting to all the posts in this forum by most (happy clappers) that once we survive this season, we will strengthen in the summer, and everything will look rosy once we get the coveted new pot of cash from Sky.

No, it wont.

First, who says we are able to attract attractive players to Norwich?

Players who will have seen our change of style under Hughton, and who know it will not help their career moving to a club not wanting to play football, but instead try to limit damage every game.

This is actually one of the worst implications by the new playstyle. Yes, supporters moaning is bad enough, but the long term implications is that we will not be able to attract players.

Look at Stoke...where do you find (good) players willing to go to this team, unless they are more or less thugs themselves?

If this continues Hughton will succeed in creating a new sterotype of Norwich.

We will be known as the dull country club, playing for 0-0 draws, fear of losing, no creativity, and with a manager moaning about no goals from his strike force (not knowing that the reason is his negative tactics and team set-up).

So,all you happy clappers, do you believe once (if) we are saved from relegation, suddenly the future is rosy?

Suddenly there will be jewels found by Hughton out there who want to come here and play their football?

Young 21-22 year old diamonds who see Norwich as step on the road to stardom?

Dont you think their agents will whisper a few words in their ears about our dour playstyle, negative manager, isolated countryside, etc ?

No, I don´t think we are much better off if we reach the next pot of gold.

I certainly hope so, but I don´t realisticly think so.

I think we are likely to fight against relegation next season as well, and the season after that, if we stay up.

Yes, we are a club in "transition". We are on the verge of stabilizing in the Premier, and it can be done the ugly way (as we are now doing). But surely, the implications of being known as an "ugly" team, not playing football the "right way", are quite frightening?

Yes, I may be overreacting, I may be irrational, I may also be speaking total nonsense, but it is worthy a debate, me thinks

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[quote user="grefstad"]Am I the only one reacting to all the posts in this forum by most (happy clappers) that once we survive this season, we will strengthen in the summer, and everything will look rosy once we get the coveted new pot of cash from Sky.

No, it wont.

First, who says we are able to attract attractive players to Norwich?

Players who will have seen our change of style under Hughton, and who know it will not help their career moving to a club not wanting to play football, but instead try to limit damage every game.

This is actually one of the worst implications by the new playstyle. Yes, supporters moaning is bad enough, but the long term implications is that we will not be able to attract players.

Look at Stoke...where do you find (good) players willing to go to this team, unless they are more or less thugs themselves?

If this continues Hughton will succeed in creating a new sterotype of Norwich.

We will be known as the dull country club, playing for 0-0 draws, fear of losing, no creativity, and with a manager moaning about no goals from his strike force (not knowing that the reason is his negative tactics and team set-up).

So,all you happy clappers, do you believe once (if) we are saved from relegation, suddenly the future is rosy?

Suddenly there will be jewels found by Hughton out there who want to come here and play their football?

Young 21-22 year old diamonds who see Norwich as step on the road to stardom?

Dont you think their agents will whisper a few words in their ears about our dour playstyle, negative manager, isolated countryside, etc ?

No, I don´t think we are much better off if we reach the next pot of gold.

I certainly hope so, but I don´t realisticly think so.

I think we are likely to fight against relegation next season as well, and the season after that, if we stay up.

Yes, we are a club in "transition". We are on the verge of stabilizing in the Premier, and it can be done the ugly way (as we are now doing). But surely, the implications of being known as an "ugly" team, not playing football the "right way", are quite frightening?

Yes, I may be overreacting, I may be irrational, I may also be speaking total nonsense, but it is worthy a debate, me thinks[/quote]1. We had the debate already yesterday.2. Yes, you are overreacting.

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I think the crucial thing is get this season out the way, pay off the last significant bit of debt and then next season we can spend a lot more money on the team than now. It will be easier for Hughton to improve the quality of the whole team - including the attack, and that will enable us to play a bit better.

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Perhaps this is a reaction to some of the profuse, unadulterated, and sometimes aggressive optimism of some fans on this board, but one can''t help but suspect you think as highly of this club as Jimmy Saville during a visit to a childrens ward for terminal illness.

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Personally, I don''t think there is a debate.

Every season we stay up is going to be about survival, then strengthen the next summer. That''s what about 15 out of the 20 clubs in the division will/want to be doing every year.

Will we be able to attract players to Norwich? Premiership football for the third season in a row, with a manager that pretty much every player who has ever played under him (or been coached by him) has said they have the utmost respect for? Plenty of players will want to come. "Ugly" (purely subjective) football won''t keep many away if they''ve got the chance of playing in the prem, for big wages and under a decent person as manager.

The comparison with Stoke may perhaps turn out to be a fair one. But would we rather be boring and in the prem, or less boring in the championship? From a business/management/players'' point of view, they''d take boring in the prem every time. That''s where chairmen and owners want their club to be playing, that''s where players and managers want to be plying their trade.

As for your last few paragraphs, what is the point you are trying to make? Are you suggesting that sacking Hughton will somehow turn us into a side that doesn''t have to fight for premiership survival every year? Are you suggesting that we should get relegated so that we don''t need to worry about premiership survival every season?

What quality players did Lambert attract? A few half decent championship players? Yet we were playing very ''entertaining'' football under him.

75% + of the teams in this division strengthen purely to stay up the next year. We will always be doing that, regardless of whether we''re playing good football or ''ugly'' football. We''re never going to be signing Messi type players. Personally, I couldn''t care less how we stay up, as long as we do.

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[quote user="Aggy"]Personally, I don''t think there is a debate.

Every season we stay up is going to be about survival, then strengthen the next summer. That''s what about 15 out of the 20 clubs in the division will/want to be doing every year.

Will we be able to attract players to Norwich? Premiership football for the third season in a row, with a manager that pretty much every player who has ever played under him (or been coached by him) has said they have the utmost respect for? [/quote]Well said.  If it''s nonsense then it''s every club''s nonsense (the 5 remaining clubs will "win stuff", then strengthen in the summer.)

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[quote user="raktoni"]1. We had the debate already yesterday.

2. Yes, you are overreacting.

Get off your high horse Ginger Peler[/quote]I posted my opinion. If you care to look in the thread "A few points to consider, the points were all debated without anyone wetting their pants.

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[quote user="Aggy"]

What quality players did Lambert attract? A few half decent championship players? Yet we were playing very ''entertaining'' football under him. [/quote]

Good point, but there is also a point that Lamberts additions to the squad were made on an assumption that we would be relegated right away, according to the 7 year plan.

Therefore Lambert did not make the big signings, but instead went for basement bargains.

Now though, expectation is to stay up for another season, if we stay up this season, so Hughton will likely be shopping with that in mind (meaning he will spend more on fewer signings, hoping for more "quality").

Now, it all remains to be seen, how things pan out.

If we are able to add to the squad 1 decent forward, 2 decent midfielders where one of them is a playmaker type, and one a left winger, and some quality defenders, espescially full backs, we could manage to hang on for another season.

The difficult stuff is to improve the squad while playing a brand of football which is not seen upon as attractive (for players) to play.

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[quote user="grefstad"]Good point, but there is also a point that Lamberts additions to the squad were made on an assumption that we would be relegated right away, according to the 7 year plan.

Therefore Lambert did not make the big signings, but instead went for basement bargains.

Now though, expectation is to stay up for another season, if we stay up this season, so Hughton will likely be shopping with that in mind (meaning he will spend more on fewer signings, hoping for more "quality").

Now, it all remains to be seen, how things pan out.

If we are able to add to the squad 1 decent forward, 2 decent midfielders where one of them is a playmaker type, and one a left winger, and some quality defenders, espescially full backs, we could manage to hang on for another season.

The difficult stuff is to improve the squad while playing a brand of football which is not seen upon as attractive (for players) to play.[/quote]
1) Lambert didn''t make signings on the assumption we''d get relegated. If you think that''s how he and/or McNally operated then you''ve obviously been watching two different people to me for the past few years. We have always - and continue to - operate on the premise that we will spend as much as we can afford without risking financial ruin of the club. There will be no different ''assumption'' this year than there have been in the previous couple of transfer windows. The only difference will be that Hughton will have more money to play with, due to another season in the prem and the debt being made less.
2) Your last sentence I couldn''t disagree more with. West Ham - terrible, woeful football, doing alright in the league, managed to attract Carroll this summer. (Now, I think Carroll is overrated, but he had a reputation with him; and by your reasoning players with reputations don''t go to teams who play bad football.) Compare that with Wigan, who have played good football under Martinez for a few years now, yet who have they signed that would be miles better than what we''ve got? And where exactly has that got them anyway?
You also make the error of thinking that players make decisions due to the same reasons that you are currently thinking as a fan. Professionals will be just as happy with a hard fought, team performance where they''ve all ran their backsides off helping each other out and fighting for the point, than they will with scoring for fun. In fact, I reckon if you ask most professionals, they would be more annoyed with letting 4 sloppy goals in but scoring 5, than they would be with a solid clean sheet and a 1-0 win.
Finances, league position, manager. These things all come before style of play in a player''s choice of clubs. If us and Swansea offered the exact same financial package, both finished on virtually the same points, and both had managers that were of similar personalities/man management styles, only then would style of play come into things. 
3) This summer we will spend the money we can afford on bringing in players that Hughton believes will do us a job. We will sign players who are within our budget. We may get beaten to one or two signings (purely because there are plenty of teams in this division/Europe who have more money than us). We almost certainly won''t lose out on a player JUST because of our style of play.

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Meant to also chuck in geographical location - if you''re offered the same wage etc. at a London club or Norwich, and you want to live in the capital/in a busy bustling area great for night life, then you''ll probably go to the capital club - again, that is assuming the financial package offered and the footballing opportunities are at a similar level (ie; you wouldn''t go to a League 1 London club over Norwich in the prem, nor would you go to QPR if they offered you £5k a week and Norwich were offering you £30k a week).

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[quote user="grefstad"]Am I the only one reacting to all the posts in this forum by most (happy clappers) that once we survive this season, we will strengthen in the summer, and everything will look rosy once we get the coveted new pot of cash from Sky.

No, it wont.

First, who says we are able to attract attractive players to Norwich?

Players who will have seen our change of style under Hughton, and who know it will not help their career moving to a club not wanting to play football, but instead try to limit damage every game.

This is actually one of the worst implications by the new playstyle. Yes, supporters moaning is bad enough, but the long term implications is that we will not be able to attract players.

Look at Stoke...where do you find (good) players willing to go to this team, unless they are more or less thugs themselves?

If this continues Hughton will succeed in creating a new sterotype of Norwich.

We will be known as the dull country club, playing for 0-0 draws, fear of losing, no creativity, and with a manager moaning about no goals from his strike force (not knowing that the reason is his negative tactics and team set-up).

So,all you happy clappers, do you believe once (if) we are saved from relegation, suddenly the future is rosy?

Suddenly there will be jewels found by Hughton out there who want to come here and play their football?

Young 21-22 year old diamonds who see Norwich as step on the road to stardom?

Dont you think their agents will whisper a few words in their ears about our dour playstyle, negative manager, isolated countryside, etc ?

No, I don´t think we are much better off if we reach the next pot of gold.

I certainly hope so, but I don´t realisticly think so.

I think we are likely to fight against relegation next season as well, and the season after that, if we stay up.

Yes, we are a club in "transition". We are on the verge of stabilizing in the Premier, and it can be done the ugly way (as we are now doing). But surely, the implications of being known as an "ugly" team, not playing football the "right way", are quite frightening?

Yes, I may be overreacting, I may be irrational, I may also be speaking total nonsense, but it is worthy a debate, me thinks[/quote]Your last sentence summed it up to a tee.I remain a happy clapper if that''s the term you want use. Hughton''s job is to keep us in the Premier League this season. NOTHING else matters. He could stand 11 players on the line and eeck out 12 0-0 draws for all I care.If we go down there is absolutely zilch chance of recruiting better players. The future will be a hell of a lot rosier in the Premier League next year than it would be in the Championship, losing our better players and trying to adjust finances to a much lower turnover.Carry on Chris, just get the job done.

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the fact is we cant change the players we have now until the season ends - so the focus is on ensuring we change the fact that we are the prem team with the longest current winless run and staying in the prem so we can strengthen as a prem team

That has to mean an overhaul of the attacking options - but we have nothing to change until then - so given our limitations survival is the minimum requirement

however post match comments about their quality by Hughton really do undermine our teams capabilities - and must surely be eroding self confidence. we did have the quality to beat fulham

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

however post match comments about their quality by Hughton really do undermine our teams capabilities - and must surely be eroding self confidence. we did have the quality to beat fulham[/quote]

Correct, as well as the constant talking up of the opposition pre-match.

I dont understand this.

Hughton seem to be installing a "small team" facing "big team" pre every match, almost to find an excuse prematurely for a poor performance (or result) which he "knows" will happen.

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This is a myth. Pure and simple.

If you watch Sky any Saturday morning, in their previews they show all the managers at their interviews and they all always say nice things about the opposition. It''s part of the etiquette of prematch publicity.

To suggest that Hughton is any better or worse than anyone else is ill informed nonsense.

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What Aggy said.

I may also be concerned by some of our current tactics, the January failure to grab a top class striker, and recent results. But I simply can''t go along with your notion that all is lost just yet!

Plus, don''t understand the need for this polarisation between doom-mongers and happy clappers, and the way both extremes call each other idiots and morons. Anyone who does that is obviously an idiot and a moron.

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