A few points to consider

[......and Smith must score. 1,637]

[quote user="killiecanary"]What a good thread this has been. [/quote]Couldn''t agree more killie. Unbelievable to see this many pages without ANY of the usual point scoring vendettas surfacing.Cusp is a good poster and if we can see this sort of result then I hope he posts on here a bit more than he has done lately.

[morty 0]

[quote user="......and Smith must score."][quote user="killiecanary"]What a good thread this has been. [/quote]Couldn''t agree more killie. Unbelievable to see this many pages without ANY of the usual point scoring vendettas surfacing.Cusp is a good poster and if we can see this sort of result then I hope he posts on here a bit more than he has done lately.[/quote]This has been a once in a lifetime event, we managed to discuss a subject, stay on topic, and use enough long words to intimidate the idiots and keep them from getting involved.

[ZLF 342]

another positive if the cautious approach is that we have only lost 9 games compared to the average of 11-12 of those around and below us - that may not sound much but it does add up come the season end - 2 less points right now would have us very anxious indeed

[grefstad 0]

[quote user="killiecanary"]What a good thread this has been.

There seems to be little argument that the lack of cutting edge in the final third is down to the midfield selection.

What to my mind is missing now is the midfielders getting beyond Holt in numbers to find holes in the opposition defence.

I dont know if we actually have the box-box midfielders we need to give that assistance the striker needs - Howson probably is the most suited to the role, and as someone here pointed out, he did play that role against Swansea in the first half to perfection. But for some reason he isnt getting a look in..[/quote]

Good points.

Hughton is no newbie, so surely he must have considered the use of Howson, at least in home games we are expected to boss (Newcastle in poor form, Fulham, etc), and yet he continues with two sitting midfielders, and noone seems licenced to roam forward when situations arise.

For me, this is a deliberate tactical choice by Hughton, and part of the problem, espescially in home games.

PLaying two defensive sitting midfielders in away games is fair enough, but then, if we go 1-0 down, he need to change it, but he is not even doing that.

And in home games, 2 def miss is just too negative.

Other teams playing this formation (4-4-1-1), or 4-5-1, always have one defensive midfielder, and one playmaker, and the other midfielders are licenced to run/roam.

in a straight 4-5-1, there will normally be 1 sitting midfielder, 2 wingers, and 2 "inside forwards" supporting the lone striker.

This requires a lot of legs though, and none of our current midfielders seem to have the stamina or energy to fill these roles.

And when we clearly tire after 70 mins in game after game, why, oh why, does not Hughton make substitutions. It will keep the fringe players on their toes, they willl feel they have a part to play, etc.

It injects fresh energy to the side, after all you can sub 30% of the personell during a game.

For me, Howson need to play in home games, as an attacking midfielder, drop Wes, and play two strikers (when fit).

Kamars and Becchio or Kamara/Holt should be good, as Kamara have the pace to stretch defences.

Playing only Holt or Becchio up front creates a problem where the opposition can play a high line, not fearing to be exposed due to our lack of pace.

And espescially when we play 2 sitting midfielders AND Holt on his own up front, opposition teams need not fear any quick breaks, because we have not got anyone with pace.

[killiecanary 0]

Hughton is no newbie, so surely he must have considered the use of Howson, at least in home games we are expected to boss (Newcastle in poor form, Fulham, etc), and yet he continues with two sitting midfielders, and noone seems licenced to roam forward when situations arise.

For me, this is a deliberate tactical choice by Hughton, and part of the problem, espescially in home games.

PLaying two defensive sitting midfielders in away games is fair enough, but then, if we go 1-0 down, he need to change it, but he is not even doing that.

And in home games, 2 def miss is just too negative.

Other teams playing this formation (4-4-1-1), or 4-5-1, always have one defensive midfielder, and one playmaker, and the other midfielders are licenced to run/roam.

in a straight 4-5-1, there will normally be 1 sitting midfielder, 2 wingers, and 2 "inside forwards" supporting the lone striker.

This requires a lot of legs though, and none of our current midfielders seem to have the stamina or energy to fill these roles.

And when we clearly tire after 70 mins in game after game, why, oh why, does not Hughton make substitutions. It will keep the fringe players on their toes, they willl feel they have a part to play, etc.

It injects fresh energy to the side, after all you can sub 30% of the personell during a game.

For me, Howson need to play in home games, as an attacking midfielder, drop Wes, and play two strikers (when fit).

Kamars and Becchio or Kamara/Holt should be good, as Kamara have the pace to stretch defences.

Playing only Holt or Becchio up front creates a problem where the opposition can play a high line, not fearing to be exposed due to our lack of pace.

And espescially when we play 2 sitting midfielders AND Holt on his own up front, opposition teams need not fear any quick breaks, because we have not got anyone with pace.

Yep - I agree with all of this. Playing two def mids at home does make us one-dimensional, but if Howson isn''t the answer then I don''t know who we have on the books to do so. Certainly if we play Tettey and BJ i think Wes is a luxury we can''t afford because we haven''t got anyone up far enough for him to pass to!

I look forward to seeing who CH brings into that position in the summer if we stay up.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,877]

It''s not that we don''t play two up front. It''s that we don''t change our shape. There are times when the opposition sits and appears happy to be deep, at which point a word should come from the bench to move the ball forward, more quickly and sometimes dump the ball on top of the opposition defence. We never , ever change.

I''ve read on here that we went to two up front. Did we really play two up front yesterday? Not from where I sat we didn''t . Becchio was always behind the hapless Jacko from our GK restarts  and rarely did they play as a front two. And when we lost possession Becchio was dragged back immediately.

We dont always have to change. Take the Arsenal game. We scored, and then sat. As we did against Manchester Utd. But who could complain, the results spoke for themselves. But , when the opportunity presents itself we don''t...contrast that against Newcastle and Fulham where we were clearly against teams where we decided not to change. But why? we could (and should) have looked to score against them. But our decision was to stick. And we got a point. Rather than potentially gaining three, or losing one.

We must all understand that we will not stay up on draws. So I say again, where are our wins coming from? If Hughton thinks a draw against Fulham at home is OK, where does he think he can force a win?  

[CambridgeCanary 0]

[quote user="killiecanary"]Hughton is no newbie, so surely he must have considered the use of Howson, at least in home games we are expected to boss (Newcastle in poor form, Fulham, etc), and yet he continues with two sitting midfielders, and noone seems licenced to roam forward when situations arise. For me, this is a deliberate tactical choice by Hughton, and part of the problem, espescially in home games. PLaying two defensive sitting midfielders in away games is fair enough, but then, if we go 1-0 down, he need to change it, but he is not even doing that. And in home games, 2 def miss is just too negative. Other teams playing this formation (4-4-1-1), or 4-5-1, always have one defensive midfielder, and one playmaker, and the other midfielders are licenced to run/roam. in a straight 4-5-1, there will normally be 1 sitting midfielder, 2 wingers, and 2 "inside forwards" supporting the lone striker. This requires a lot of legs though, and none of our current midfielders seem to have the stamina or energy to fill these roles. And when we clearly tire after 70 mins in game after game, why, oh why, does not Hughton make substitutions. It will keep the fringe players on their toes, they willl feel they have a part to play, etc. It injects fresh energy to the side, after all you can sub 30% of the personell during a game. For me, Howson need to play in home games, as an attacking midfielder, drop Wes, and play two strikers (when fit). Kamars and Becchio or Kamara/Holt should be good, as Kamara have the pace to stretch defences. Playing only Holt or Becchio up front creates a problem where the opposition can play a high line, not fearing to be exposed due to our lack of pace. And espescially when we play 2 sitting midfielders AND Holt on his own up front, opposition teams need not fear any quick breaks, because we have not got anyone with pace. Yep - I agree with all of this. Playing two def mids at home does make us one-dimensional, but if Howson isn''t the answer then I don''t know who we have on the books to do so. Certainly if we play Tettey and BJ i think Wes is a luxury we can''t afford because we haven''t got anyone up far enough for him to pass to! I look forward to seeing who CH brings into that position in the summer if we stay up.[/quote]

 

You''d play Howson instead of Hoolahan?

 

Dear God.  You''d replace one of our best players with someone who is currently in woeful form and you criticise Hughton?

 

Just explain to me again exactly what is wrong with playing the same 4231 system that virtually all Prem teams play in place of the outmoded 442 except for the fact that we have Bennett and not Mata or Bale?

[nutty nigel 7,963]

I don''t see the crime of how we played against Fulham. I think it''s arrogant in the extreme to assume we should be able to throw caution to the wind and blow them away. Fulham have a squad that''s been built through years of premier league finance. They have the players to really hurt us. The reason they didn''t was because we didn''t let them. Every season this league table virtually mirrors the money spent on the wage bill. Therer are exceptions like Swansea us and QPR but money talks in this premier league and it''s not the fair competition we''d like it to be. If we are above Fulham we are over achieving. There''s nothing wrong with over achieving. We should enjoy it. But to expect it???

 

 

 

[killiecanary 0]

Not quite. What I said is that if we are going to play Tettey and BJ then I don''t think Wes has anyone to pass to in forward positions yesterday was a case in point...there were so many times he got the ball inside the Fulham half, no one was anywhere near him so he had to turn 180 degrees and go backwards. I would always want to see Wes in the team but if he has nowhere to go with the ball then I can only see him as a luxury. To be effective he needs to have other players up there with him.

I have no problem with the formation, but the personnel trying to play it. Do I think Howson is a better footballer than Hoolahoop? Not at all. But I think he may be a bit more effective than Wes in the current shape and with the 2 defensive mids behind him. I notice another thread tonight about Wes playing in left midfield...so we aren''t alone in discussing the best way to play him!!

Just out of interest, what would you do? Where would you play Wes? And who would you play in there alongside him?

[killiecanary 0]

Oh and sorry Cambridge...I am not criticising Hughton. I am definitely one who rates him...I think because the quote thingy is causing me a problem my point got caught up with the post I was responding to. I think CH is doing ok with the squad he inherited and I like his signings. But like most others I am not totally convinced by playing the 3 central midfielders we currently do in the combination we do...

[ca 1]

What a brilliant post cusdp, loads of good points well made.

I have some of the concerns that you have, doesn''t mean that I don''t want Hughton as manager because I do and it doesn''t mean that I don''t love our club because I do.

I do feel we have to be more adventerous to get the points we need though, playing so defensively so as not to lose isn''t entertaining and its not getting us the goals/wins we need.

Two upfront against Everton please and if it needs to be changed lets aim for the 60 min to make the changes, not the last 10mins.

[nutty nigel 7,963]

The problem I have with these 60 minute changes is that they can work either way. Changing the team after an hour against Fulham could just as easily result in a goal conceded as a goal scored. Football is a team game.

 

 

[ron obvious 1,731]

It will be interesting to see what Hughton does if the next half dozen or so games go against us.

I think he is extremely rational, & would therefore crank up the emphasis on attack in order to secure the necessary points. So it''s either going to be an uphill grind to the end of the season or a roller-coaster squeaky-bum excitement fest!

My money''s on the former.

[nutty nigel 7,963]

Well he does tend to go for it more if we are losing by the odd goal. Everton away is a perfect example.

 

One of Worthy''s mistakes was the substitution in the play off final. We were winning 1-0 and he brought on a defender. There was no need to disrupt the team. And he got crucified for it. But the same could have happened on Saturday. The team was holding a good Fulham side comfortably. We looked the more dangerous side going forward. The changes to the team could just as easily resulted in us conceding.

 

 

[shefcanary 3,073]

MOTD2 had a table showing we had spent £14m on transfers in the close season and January - some £10m more than WBA.  It''s my belief that the only real difference to date on the pitch from WBA has been one player - Lukaku.  Kamara could be a similar sort of game changer for us that could get us over the line that little bit quicker. 

 

This is because so much work is done before a match over how to stop opposition players from playing.  For instance opposition full backs know that showing Snoddy down the wing will not lead to anything.  They thus buy an extra couple of seconds for their colleagues by doing this and then waiting for Snoddy to stop and play the ball back to Martin, or inside to Hooly.  They are also more wary of diving in on Snoddy as well thus cutting off some of his supply from free kicks. 

 

We need something different.  Kamara is relatively unknown.  I think throwing Kamara on for a long run around would unsettle the opposition in a match where we have played 4-5-1, it certainly seemed to upset Fulham.  BUT we probably only have a game or two to do this before all the OPTA coaches have his game down pat.  We would also need Snoddy to be back on his dead ball game again (I mentioned earlier that against Fulham his delivery was woeful - the target of much of Hughton''s ire I believe).

[ZLF 342]

[quote user="grefstad"]

For me, Howson need to play in home games, as an attacking midfielder, drop Wes[/quote]

 

This season is not Johnny Hs time.   We need to continue to us him as a sub as he gets up to prem league standard - which I think he can do in time.   However so far his performance ratio is like a reverse Holt or Bassong.    Last season we lost 55% of games he started,  his introduction leading to our end of season down turn - as we were already safe it was not a concern or too noticable. 

 

This season its even worse - 60% of his premier starts are defeats,  not just not wins,  but losses.   Last season we scored fewer and conceeded noticeably more when he started than when he did not, and we won fewer and gained less points. This season we are no different with him from a goal scoring perspective yet are even worse as far as goals conceded or points won are concerned.   We win more than twice as many points per game with him on the subs bench than when he starts (1.4 v 0.6)

 

Dropping wes may be the right thing to do (kamara instead perhaps) but bringing Johnny in at the mo most certainly is not - protect him,  develop him slowly and continue to use him as a sub - but we need a more positively influential player than JH right now. 

[Mr Brownstone 0]

He who dares Nigel, he who dares.

At some point, if we''re going to stay in this league, we''re going to have to dare.

I sincerely hope we''re not made to pay for our failure to beat any of QPR, West Ham, Newcastle or Fulham on home soil. I''m not suggesting we have a divine right to beat the teams around us, but we have to beat some of them at some point if we''re going to stay up.

As you say, if we''d have gone for it in those four games there''s no guarantee there would have been a positive outcome, but even if we''d ended up winning one and losing one we''d be 2 points closer to safety.

The concern is that the longer we go without that win the lower the momentum and confidence get, and the fewer opportunities remain to get those points on the board.

I hope I''m just worried over nothing, but worried I am nonetheless.

[Mr Brownstone 0]

Maths was never my strong point.

[Monty13 2,796]

Howson shouldn''t be replacing Wes, he should be playing in a team with him against similar levelled opposition.

Howson alongside Johnson or Tettey would show more attacking intent and take the pressure off Wes being required to be the catalyst of all our build up.

While the stats for Howson aren''t good this year, when starting he has often played in a 442 formation. As I have said before my only recollection of him starting in one of the defensive berths in a 451 was at Swansea and we not only won the game we scored 4 goals.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Monty13"] Howson alongside Johnson or Tettey would show more attacking intent and take the pressure off Wes being required to be the catalyst of all our build up. [/quote]

Unfortunately Howson''s tackling this season is rather suspect and the opposition have a free run at our back row...........

[ZLF 342]

Monty - his 3 appearances in a 4231 were liverpool away (in the hoolahan role),  swansea and west ham away (in the defensive role).    In there are our most sublime and most ridiculous 45 minutes respectively.     

 

As a 442 he also appeared in the luton defeat which is not included in the above stats.

 

As tangy has pointed out we are a little suspect through the middle when howson starts.    As i said - next year maybe - just not right now.  

[grefstad 0]

Fair points regarding Howson, Zippers.

But I just cant help feeling Howson is better equipped as an offensive midfielder than a defensive midfielder.

He seems to be a bit too restrained by Hughtons rigid system when he plays.

Admittedly, he did not set the Premiership alight last season either, but he seems much more confident in his own ability.

In fact, this goes for almost all our offensive players this season.

Pilkington is a shadow of himself since October, Elliot seems very low of confidence, and is played out of position, Wes is not effective when he has only one player in front of him, and has to turn back to find support every time, Holt is lurking on to the wings to find some space to actually get the ball, because is is well wrapped up by the attention of 2 center halfs, and his movement on to the wing, although creating space for others, is not exploited because our other midfielders have been told to hold, not to attack (Tettey/Johnson).

There is something very wrong with this setup, and it has been going on for a long time now. Even during our 10 game unbeaten run, I never felt we played well, but we were capitalizing on other teams sloppyness, and some good oldfashioned luck, nicking 1-0 wins where it could easily have been a draw, etc.

And yes, it is a mangerial shortcoming not coming up with a plan B when things don´t go our way.

It is also a managerial shortcoming not using the subs better than we have done for most of the season.

I refuse to believe that our bench players are so much worse than our first XI, but by being so sparely used, they are also very short of confidence, and when they are given only 2-3-5 mins to make an impact, it is just a Catch22.

It is for me quite unbelievable how we have failed to at least try to win games, especially at home, and games vs QPR, West Ham, Newcastle and Fulham spring to mind.

Now, you can say that in these games, we did not attack more due to the risk of conceding, but when you dont try to win games at home, when are you going to try to win games (apart from gambling on other teams making mistakes gifting us goals) ?

To me, all these situations when we have had the chance to go at the opposition in evenly balanced games at home, and failed to do so, is something we would probably not see with other managers in this league. It is a Hughtonesque thing, and something that mirrors the guys cautious personality.

Sadly now, the fear of losing will have crept in with the players, and as such, the entire team, except perhaps for Snoddy, looks perplexed, and playing with fear.

I just dont see us breaking this bad spell without a change of heart from the manager, and without implementing a more positive style of football, we will not be able to get the best out of our players.

[Monty13 2,796]

Zipper, personally I don''t think he can play the Hoolahan role, certainly not to the standard of the man himself. I also don''t think 442 is the answer to anything apart from how to get battered at this level.

I didn''t remember him playing in the West Ham game but thanks for pointing it out. I honestly don''t think that game is as fair a reflection as Swansea. Look at the Swansea side he played in it is pretty much all first choice players. Then look at the West Ham team, and who is the big name missing, no Holt up front. To me Swansea is the only example of Howson playing in a full strength team, in the current favoured formation.

I don''t think he is as strong in the tackle as Tettey or Johnson, but then neither of them have his passing range or dribbling ability. You have to make compromises somewhere and at the minute the compromise seems to be play 6 defensive minded players and hope Hoolahan does some magic or we nick a goal from a set piece. I would rather see one of the two defensive midfielders changed for a more balanced player.