Hughton Has NOT Improved The Defence!

[hogesar 9,618]

We''ve conceded less and kept considerably more clean sheets. That, and (by actually being at the matches) i don''t feel like every time a Prem team attacks us we''re going to concede, which is how i felt for most of last season.

[Warren Hill 0]

I think Bassong has improved the defence.

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Wiz"]

The facts are, at this time last season we had had conceeded only 3 more goals than we have now and at the expence of free flowing, attacking and scoring football...........and he''s spent a big wad of cash to achieve this.

 

I suggest that anyone who still clings to the myth that Hughton has radicly improved the defence/team is away and playing with the fairies!

 

We were far better last season and after he''s had two transfer windows, imo.............he''s failed!

[/quote]its because he''s black isn''t it?in all seriousness Whitbread had been moved on long before Hughton arrived, Ayala has proven to be injury prone and is no someone elses problem.. if you really think Marc Tierney is better than Jabier Garrido then i want whatever it is you are smoking! ditton Bassong and Ryan Bennett/Leon BArnett.

[Baldyboy 0]

all this bull about clean sheets is exactly that,we may have had 8 clean sheets but we have conceded four or more goals FIVE times. How many times last season did we concede 4 or more?

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="cautious Chris "]all this bull about clean sheets is exactly that,we may have had 8 clean sheets but we have conceded four or more goals FIVE times. How many times last season did we concede 4 or more?[/quote]Aah, baldyboy is back. Are you saying we had a better defence last season baldyboy?

[nutty nigel 7,513]

[quote user="cautious Chris "]all this bull about clean sheets is exactly that,we may have had 8 clean sheets but we have conceded four or more goals FIVE times. How many times last season did we concede 4 or more?
[/quote]

 

All this bull about clean sheets was all the whiners would talk about last season when we didn''t have many....

 

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/2710985/ShowPost.aspx

 

 

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="cautious Chris "]all this bull about clean sheets is exactly that,we may have had 8 clean sheets but we have conceded four or more goals FIVE times. How many times last season did we concede 4 or more?

[/quote]

 

All this bull about clean sheets was all the whiners would talk about last season when we didn''t have many....

 

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/2710985/ShowPost.aspx[/quote]

[quote user="cautious Chris "]the one major thing we need to sort out

next season is how to defend properly!!! Failing to keep a clean sheet

away and only 2 all season is poor!!![/quote]

LOL! [:D]

[Butterbean_Canary 0]

[quote user="star_manic"]how many goals would we have shipped by now if Lambert was still our manager? this season was always going to be a lot tougher than last as the overall quality is slightly better and we are no longer an unknown quantity. without a doubt our defence is considerably better than last season. we have conceded 40 goals so far, but 23  have been in five matches, in 4 of which Barnett (3 ) and R Bennett have been in defence and Bassong(3) or Turner(2) missing. which means in the other 21 matches with a settled defence, we have conceded just17 goals, and 3 of them were in our 4-3 victory over Swansea. stats can prove anything you want them toWiz, but it cannot hide that our first choice defence is much stronger than last season.[:P][/quote]

This ^^

[ZLF 271]

Wiz is right on the bare bones of it;   3 fewer goals conceeded but a significantly worse goal difference because we have scored fewer.    The real benchmark is the number of points,  which we are down on too.   Pointing out we had games with large goals conceeded this season does not wash - we did that last season too.   So we do have an issue that needs resolving.

 

However Wiz you are wrong.    The defence is significantly better,  but there is a caveat - and his name is Seb Bassong.    

 

When he plays we are a much better team, we defend visibly better and its no longer a shock when we conceed no goals.  Seb has missed just 3 games this season and we have conceeded just 25 goals in those 23 appearances - just over a goal a game.   we have let in 15 in the other 3 - scoring just 2 and nil points -13 GD in those games.   His leadership is crucial.      Our goal average all season is 1.5 goals conceeded,   down to 1 with seb  Conceeding at 1 goal a game is as good as any team in the prem.

 

But without Seb we are rudderless at the back.   Improvements have been made but we do have a single man dependency and that (and our shot shy strikers) are what we need to address.

[chicken 0]

Here is the real problem though.

Good, decent and proven strikers that can provide us with what we need are the most expensive part of a football team.

Hughton came to us in the summer, probably with some sort of budget.

Let''s say for arguments sake that the budget is around £10million.

Look at the squad we had. For all we know Whitbread was already gone having been able to talk to other clubs since January - which would suggest that Lambert didn''t rate him that highly.

So on that basis we had:

RB: Russel Martin - no experienced back up.

CB: Barnett, R. Bennett and Ward.

LB: Tierney.

In terms of strikers we had:

Holt and Morison who had scored 10+ goals each. Jackson who had and can chip in with a couple from the bench along with C.Martin and Vaughan.

In theory we should have managed ok on the back of at least three of those strikers being ok for the prem.

So back to that £10million. A striker of the pedigree we needed would cost in the region of say £5million. Half your budget blown away on one signing.

To make it a bit clearer we were able to sign Bassong and Turner for that much money - or there abouts.

Sure we could have signed a striker on top of those two but then we would not have signed Snodgrass, Tettey, Whitteker and Garrido.

If you want to survive a second season in the premiership you have to be able to defend, that means having decent defenders. It would appear that Lambert somewhat struggled to sign us an outstanding central defender for this level. Especially when you consider that all of them, including De Laet have found themselves playing in the championship or in our reserves.

We do need a new striker and a reliable one, it at least looks as if that is what the club tried to do in January and at least brought in Becchio and Kamara to add something a little different. Becchio is probably the most clinical striker we have had at the club for a while, knows where the goal is and is much more out and out than Holt. Time will tell if he has the quality at this level though, I personally think he has.

That said the only thing I would like to see is if we play two up front, to have Snodgrass switch to the left with Pilks or Bennett on the right. Get some balls into the box and give our chaps some service.

[Dubai Mark 0]

Another good subject to debate Wiz, thanks, way better than a lot of stuff we get on here. What I find strange is that you get branded an attention seeker when you start a thread yet this doesnt get thrown at others, anyway.........

I  can see your point and accept your view........BUT, I disagree with you on this one, although had to really think about it before I did, as based on that headline statistic this assumption can certainly be made.....and I guess accepted. However.... taking everything into consideration, in particular having seen all of the games at least live here on TV, it is clear that our defence is "better" than last season, as individuals and as a team...and I am convinced that whilst Bunn has done a very decent job between the sticks (a very astute signing by CH as is that of Camp) we would have been slightly better with Ruddy and perhaps 3 or 4 points better off. Having a new GK behind you is always tough for a defence particular replacing the quality of Ruddy.

The CH signings across the back four have been terrific, I never thought we would sign a player of the quality of Bassong, a player I have always rated highly, in just our second season......he has been terrific, really top class,  other than a couple of acceptable lapses. nobody''s perfect (Rio and Terry make em too)........Turner after a difficult start has also been terrific........Whittaker is unlucky not to be back in the side and that''s a credit to Russell Martin, but the side certainly looks stronger with him in place.......Bunn has been great and is a top class back-up keeper......my only one I personally need convincing on is Garrido (although I never was a huge fan of Tierney after the first half dozen or so games last season) as he started well but for some games now has been very average, maybe the pace and intensity of the Premier League is getting to him, that said worst case, which is right now, he is on a par with Tierney.

The midfield too has performed very well defensively when required, something that was missing last season.....I for one certainly remember us losing the midfield battles way more last season than this.

Sure we should have strengthened our forwards situation (I though am delighted we have signed Becchio......he will notch at this level and Holt will thrive too either playing alongside him and/or having some genuine competition) but this is about our defence.......and I will take a lot of convincing that had we stuck with PL''s defence and not signed a back-up GK we may well have been below QPR at this stage of the season.

So, Wiz...please keep posting the types of subjects that stimulate good debate, the good one''s on here, and there are many, will join in with the debate while the others can go and masterxxxx for all I care! OTBC 

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

So Wiz doesnt think Garrido is better than Tierney?!LOL[:D]

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="Dubai Mark"]

Another good subject to debate Wiz, thanks, way better than a lot of stuff we get on here. What I find strange is that you get branded an attention seeker when you start a thread yet this doesnt get thrown at others, anyway.........

I  can see your point and accept your view........BUT, I disagree with you on this one, although had to really think about it before I did, as based on that headline statistic this assumption can certainly be made.....and I guess accepted. However.... taking everything into consideration, in particular having seen all of the games at least live here on TV, it is clear that our defence is "better" than last season, as individuals and as a team...and I am convinced that whilst Bunn has done a very decent job between the sticks (a very astute signing by CH as is that of Camp) we would have been slightly better with Ruddy and perhaps 3 or 4 points better off. Having a new GK behind you is always tough for a defence particular replacing the quality of Ruddy.

The CH signings across the back four have been terrific, I never thought we would sign a player of the quality of Bassong, a player I have always rated highly, in just our second season......he has been terrific, really top class,  other than a couple of acceptable lapses. nobody''s perfect (Rio and Terry make em too)........Turner after a difficult start has also been terrific........Whittaker is unlucky not to be back in the side and that''s a credit to Russell Martin, but the side certainly looks stronger with him in place.......Bunn has been great and is a top class back-up keeper......my only one I personally need convincing on is Garrido (although I never was a huge fan of Tierney after the first half dozen or so games last season) as he started well but for some games now has been very average, maybe the pace and intensity of the Premier League is getting to him, that said worst case, which is right now, he is on a par with Tierney.

The midfield too has performed very well defensively when required, something that was missing last season.....I for one certainly remember us losing the midfield battles way more last season than this.

Sure we should have strengthened our forwards situation (I though am delighted we have signed Becchio......he will notch at this level and Holt will thrive too either playing alongside him and/or having some genuine competition) but this is about our defence.......and I will take a lot of convincing that had we stuck with PL''s defence and not signed a back-up GK we may well have been below QPR at this stage of the season.

So, Wiz...please keep posting the types of subjects that stimulate good debate, the good one''s on here, and there are many, will join in with the debate while the others can go and masterxxxx for all I care! OTBC 

[/quote]

 

oh dear

 

there''s alway at least one who falls for it

 

 

[canaryfan68 0]

Regardless of how many more/less goals we have conceded surely we should look at the style of football and the points return we have got.

At the end of this season will we have progressed from the last campaign, I don''t feel we have but some will say the only thing that matters is staying in the premiership. I agree that premiership status is paramount but Hughtons football bores me! Tin hat at the ready!

[BarclayWazza 91]

[quote user="cautious Chris "]all this bull about clean sheets is exactly that,we may have had 8 clean sheets but we have conceded four or more goals FIVE times. How many times last season did we concede 4 or more?[/quote]

The answer is 3. But we conceded 3 goals 6 times. As as someone has already said from looking at the goals conceded this season with and without Bassong it shows the improvement he''s brought to the team. That alone shows that Hughton HAS improved the defence.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

For starters, it is probably best to judge this season based on post Bassong/Garrido playing.

After the 5-0 hammering at Fulham, Chris Hughton went and bought a new central defender.

The current back 4 of Whitaker, Turner, Bassong and Garrido are far stronger players than those available last season (Martin, Barnett, R Bennett, Ayala, Ward, Whitbread, De Laet, Tierney, Naughton)

The best player in defense last season was probably Kyle Naughton, who is sadly not our player, who is arguably better than Whitaker.

I think nearly all Hughton''s signings have improved the team in terms of quality:

Seb Bassong

Robert Snodgrass

Alexander Tettey

Javier Garrido

Michael Turner

Steven Whittaker

Done ok:

Mark Bunn

Jury is out:

Kei Kamara

Luciano Becchio

Lee Camp

Flops:

Harry Kane

[QHcanary 0]

A post I made on 20 January after the Liverpool game.[quote]

Some goals conceded per game stats. With Ruddy 1.46, without 2.00.

With Bassong 1.20, without 5.00. With Whittaker 1.00, without 2.14.

[/quote]If Bassong had been playing in the three games we conceded 5, and the games had gone to defensive form we''d have conceded 11 or 12 goals less at that point. Since then we''ve conceded less than a goal a game in the league, including a game against a team that includes one of the best players in the world who is currently scoring for fun. We also have many more clean sheets than last season.How anyone can say Hughton hasn''t improved the defence is beyond me.But let''s not let that get in the way of some attention seeking, eh?

[First Wizard 0]

[quote user="Howson is now"][quote user="Wiz"]

[quote user="morty"]Wiz, you here still?

You going to back up your "facts" lol?

I suspect you will roll out the "Its just my opinion and I was provoking the debate" line again.
[/quote]

 

It should be simple enough........even for you!

 

Here''s a clue....compare today to today last season, only 3 less goals conceeded than under Lambert. .........and an attack which is now buggered.......some progress.[:|]

[/quote]

 

Your title was very clear "Hughton has NOT improved the defence!" You then go on to say that we have conceded three less goals than this day last season. It should be simple enough........even for you! That three less is an improvement. Regardless of how big an improvement, just going on your words and your words alone, you have proved that your thread is cr@p and that you contradict yourself.

[/quote]

 

Whilst imo, you split hairs over my thread''s title, I still stand by its premise, that after spending millions in the summer, Hughton has not really improved the team defensively and as an added bonus, our attack is now non existant!

 

To think otherwise is burying your head in the sand or playing your fiddle why Rome burns!

[morty 0]

You''re wrong (again) and talk all the twaddle you like, its not going to make you right.

[Zak Van Burger 0]

[quote user="Wiz"] 

Whilst imo, you split hairs over my thread''s title, I still stand by its premise, that after spending millions in the summer, Hughton has not really improved the team defensively and as an added bonus, our attack is now non existant!

 

To think otherwise is burying your head in the sand or playing your fiddle why Rome burns!

[/quote] Just to clarify you start a thread entitled "Hughton Has NOT Improved The Defence" and in your opening post inadvertently post a statistic which disproves the assertion that "Hughton Has NOT Improved The Defence", because that was thrown back at you along with even more facts and statistics which disprove your claim, you change it ever so slightly to "Hughton Has NOT "really" Improved The Defence".Take a look at the league table and see where defensive mastermind Paul Lamberts team sit and check their goal difference and that''s with one striker performing well, something we don''t have the benefit of, I dread to think what our gd would have been this year with him still in charge. But you carry on thinking Lamberts doing it right and Hughtons doing it wrong, if nothing else it''s always good for a giggle when you reach bursting point and post. PS check out goals scored for offensive mastermind PL''s new team while you''re there....

[Mister Chops 7]

To be honest, I think it''s easier just to make random assertions backed up by no evidence, while keeping one grizzled old finger on the "report" button.

[Bill 1,788]

" offensive mastermind PL''s"

 

I would hardly call him offensive, a bit brusque perhaps

 

but offensive, not in my opinion

 

.

[First Wazzock 902]

The defence has improved more than Lowestoft has. If you dropped a nuclear bomb on it you''d do £3 worth of improvements

[MyGodWeArePoorToWatch 0]

Yep we are a

Work in progress

He needs time.

We have a better deffence

Noo

We are like watching paint dry.

Our deffence has been improved by one player

Our creativity is non existent.

Our Strikers are blunt.

So it seems in over all terms we are worse off than last season.

But then, many of us knew that. And i stand by what i said.

Stay up, or go down, Hughton is not right for this club.

[crabbycanary 2]

[quote user="the1englishman"]Yep we are a

Work in progress

He needs time.

We have a better deffence

Noo

We are like watching paint dry.

Our deffence has been improved by one player

Our creativity is non existent.

Our Strikers are blunt.

So it seems in over all terms we are worse off than last season.

But then, many of us knew that. And i stand by what i said.

Stay up, or go down, Hughton is not right for this club.[/quote]

Who, in your opinion, is?

[ellis206 0]

Chris Hughton is right for this club, the calibre of player he has brought in and has been trying to bring in are a complete different level to the type of player Lambert brought in.

Staying up this year is a massive achievement no matter how you look at it. We are slowly building a decent squad, our first choice defence is immense and probably up there statisically as one of the better defences in the league, in the summer the strike force and midfield will be improved.

 

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="the1englishman"]Yep we are a Work in progress He needs time. We have a better deffence Noo We are like watching paint dry. Our deffence has been improved by one player Our creativity is non existent. Our Strikers are blunt. So it seems in over all terms we are worse off than last season. But then, many of us knew that. And i stand by what i said. Stay up, or go down, Hughton is not right for this club.[/quote]

The style of your post is like poetry.

The content is like Edward Lear.

 

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

8 clean sheets suggest that he has albeit we have had severaltonkings which has rined our gd

[Old Shuck 183]

Could those who wish for Hughton to be replaced as our Manager please suggest the alternative and how and why they would do a better job?

 

"I don''t know who it should be, I just want him replaced" is not an acceptable answer.

 

Wiz....?

[Roodge 0]

In the ancient Tibetan "Wheel of Life" there exists a poor pathetic creature, who is called  The Hungry Ghost. It is depicted as having an engorged bloated belly, & a tiny neck & lips. No matter how hard it feeds, its hunger can never ever be satisfied. And what it feeds on are peoples attentions & emotions. If you feed the Hungry Ghost it will continue to hang around & haunt you. Tis better to starve it out. Wiz, I suggest you lighten up man, every single post you make has become predictable & forkin negative. It is boring the ass off me. Lighten up man, get behind the team & the manager, stop the attention seek, become a valued NCFC supporter, we aint doin too badly. One more thing, negative energy is not supporting, not interesting & not appreciated.