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First Wizard

Is Wes over rated?

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[quote user="morty"]Okay, I didn''t want to pander to the usual attempt to attention seek, but I shall.Anyone who has gone to games in the last 5 seasons surely can''t question Wes''s quality, at best he is unplayable, at worst he has been a creative shining star in the middle of some very average performances.He plays a specific role that sometimes stifles other players, but he has been the heartbeat of this team, managers build the team around him.And frankly he''s better now than he has ever been. When Lambert dropped him all those years ago it was justified, and he came back fitter and working harder.Anyone who considers Wes not good enough, frankly doesn''t know squit about football.[/quote]

The voice of reason, well done.To take your points one at a time.  1. Wiz is a poster on here get used to it2. In the last five years I have witnessed Wes playing  very well and also very badly.   So I agree with you that at best he is unplayable, but at worst he cuts a frustrating figure, ineffective and not good for overall team performance.3. He does play a specific role in the team - managers build a team around him because they have to, being one of the more gifted of players - but he has limitaions, as most people recognise.4. He has been better this season, the chief reason being - imo - that he is playing further forward, thus when he runs into blind alleys less damage is done.  But what do I know, eh, I only have opinions.

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]

we have become a bit predictable and like somebody elsehas said the opposition has found us out. 

[/quote]

Exactly. We are predictable. Obviously teams have us watched and they know exactly what we''re going to do because we''ve played more or less the same team and system every single game under Hughton. We need to give them something different to think about, whether that means taking Wes out of the team or making a change elsewhere (that could also then take the focus off Wes a bit).

 

I think Wes is a bit unlucky to be criticised for not playing enough "killer" passes. I get the feeling some people think that an attacking midfielder must slice teams open with through ball after through ball and have a goal record like Frank Lampard. However, that''s not really what Wes'' game is about and it''s not really fair to judge him against it.

 

Moreover, how many players are out there that play all these "killer" passes? And of the ones that do exist who do they play for and how much do they cost?

 

 

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The only thing that Wiz has proven in his post is that if anything Wes is UNDERRATED by sections of our support.

The thing that is missing from his game is goals, I would really like to see him working more on getting into goalscoring positions more often, and when he does get into a goalscoring positions he seems to hesitate a little.

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]The only thing that Wiz has proven in his post is that if anything Wes is UNDERRATED by sections of our support.

The thing that is missing from his game is goals, I would really like to see him working more on getting into goalscoring positions more often, and when he does get into a goalscoring positions he seems to hesitate a little.[/quote]I agree, the whole ethos of playing a single striker works around players breaking into the box after he has done the dirty work.It is our midfield that should be chipping in with the goals just now.

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In fairness to Wes (or Hughton perhaps), he does look to be working on that part of his game, he was very unlucky not to grab one against QPR and it took an excellent save from a top keeper to keep that one out, and if he had scored that then there wouldn''t have been too much time between the header that he scored and the QPR game.

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]

Wiz, this is spooky, earlier I was reading the post about what team we should play vs Everton and this almost triggered me to post a similar subject regarding Wes, but I decided not to do it as felt I would just get insults, told I didnt know what I was talking about etc (you klnow all about that) and it wouldnt stimulate a decent balanced debate. So, thanks for posting, it''s a good subject to discuss and has actually stimulated some good responses....because these are the sprts of things message boards are all about.

Now, hate to say this, but having read that earlier post I came to the conclusion that vs Everton I would actually not play Wes, but that doesnt mean I think he is over rated.

I just think that when he is in the team the shape of the team becomes very rigid, we have become a bit predictable and like somebody elsehas said the opposition has found us out. 

For where our club is right now, Wes is certainly one of the most talented players we have on our books. I like seeing him play.......BUT, regardless of his percentages I still dont think he is, shall we say.....one of those "match winner" types of players, as he rarely comes up with the killer pass or a goal created out of nothing......this is now what he needs to do more often, actually a thread a month or so ago discussed this and he scored immediately afterwards......but I dont think he has done that much since in terms of something crucial.

He is a very valuable member of the squad, who perhaps has been over used a little this season, I guess because CH doesnt see that many better options within the squad, which maybe true..........perhaps like me CH thinks that Fox IS over rated, sorry Wiz, but I do and have never really understood all of the fuss to be honest, he is decent, a good squad player (for where we are right now) ...I digress...that''s a topic for another thread.     

Anyway, over rated....Wes.....depends on what you are looking for.....I just can''t make my mind about this one......a match winner vs Everton when we really need it, then I guess I will have to say NO.......OTBC

[/quote]

 

Cheers for your imput Mark, I was hoping you''d chip in with your view. [Y]

 

Its certainly gave me a few things to ponder over the weekend.

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[quote user="Wiz"]

You won''t like this, but yes in my book.

 

He always seems to run into dead ends, as he does giving the ball away or losing it, even to the point of setting up attacking options...........for the opposition!

 

His creative skills are now being smothered out by Premier teams who know now how to play him.

 

Would it be best to sell him now while we can?

 

If I''m wrong please educate me, minus insults, as to why. [:|]

[/quote]It depends what you mean by "over-rated".  Nobody is saying he''s Lionel Messi.If you mean he shouldn''t be in the first team then I''d disagree.  I would argue he is the one element of poetry in a team otherwise full of prose.Some football teams are good enough that, even if you know what they are going to do, you can''t stop them doing it.  We aren''t that good and need a bit of creative spark.  Wes Hoolahan is that player.If you look at our results record with and without him in the starting XI, that''s probably all you need to know.

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[quote user="Wiz"]

You won''t like this, but yes in my book.

 

He always seems to run into dead ends, as he does giving the ball away or losing it, even to the point of setting up attacking options...........for the opposition!

 

His creative skills are now being smothered out by Premier teams who know now how to play him.

 

Would it be best to sell him now while we can?

 

If I''m wrong please educate me, minus insults, as to why. [:|]

[/quote]It depends what you mean by "over-rated".  Nobody is saying he''s Lionel Messi.If you mean he shouldn''t be in the first team then I''d disagree.  I would argue he is the one element of poetry in a team otherwise full of prose.Some football teams are good enough that, even if you know what they are going to do, you can''t stop them doing it.  We aren''t that good and need a bit of creative spark.  Wes Hoolahan is that player.If you look at our results record with and without him in the starting XI, that''s probably all you need to know.

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I don''t think Wes is overrated at all. It is may be odd to say this about a man who is 5ft 6 but he the best player at the club for holding the ball up. He is one of the few players we have capable of receiving the ball in tight situations and holding onto it. This gives his team-mates time to advance up the pitch. So he is effectively knitting attack and defence together much of the time.

Liverpool away was a glimpse of what it is like trying to play one up front without him and it wasn''t pretty because no one was really able to offer any respite from Liverpool attacking.

He has his limitations naturally. A player of his ability should be more clinical in front of goal (Aston Villa and Newcastle being just two exanples) and he is heavily reliant on his left foot. But if he was two footed and a goalscorer he would be worth about £20 million and wouldn''t be playing for Norwich City. We have to be a little realistic here.

We are a very fortunate to have him. I always think the most telling thing is what fellow professionals and others involved in the game think of a player. A lot of players like Ruddy and E. Bennett say he is one of the best they have ever played with. A lot of other chairman (including Huw Jenkins at Swansea and now Simon Jordan being the latest) have all said he was a player they really liked and wanted to sign.

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It''s also interesting that posters who have complained about our boring and negative style of play believe the remedy is to drop Wes Hoolahan.Wiz, let''s have some answers from you.  Who would you play instead of him and what formation would you send out?

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Most underrated player of this and last three seasons.

His own downfall with some fans is that he constantly wants to be on the ball and make us tick, he therefore appears to lose it more than other players.

This season he has very little creative support from the rest of the midfield, he constantly receives the ball with his back to goal and has to turn and look for an opening, with often no immediate outlet option as we only have one striker.

He doesn''t score enough goals is perhaps a valid criticism, but he isn''t a striker, and this year I am unsure how he is meant to be in the box looking for a goal, and dictating our build up from outside of it. When he is in the box, by the nature of him not dictating play, it is usually to be challenging for head height crosses from the wing, go figure he doesn''t get on the end of many of them.

His work rate, technical skill, passing and ball retention under pressure is superb. He is also one of the few players in the first eleven capable of delivering a decent cross. He also tracks back and tackles superbly well at times.

He is a bit lightweight is also a valid point but unless he is going to grow some more and bulk out I''m not sure what he can do about that?

If anybody thinks our side is better without Wes than with him, then I don''t think you have been watching the same side as me for the last 4 seasons and especially these two in the PL. Its no coincidence that both our PL managers pretty much used formations that utilise Wes to best effect to get results in this league.

I have never seen a poster put down a cold hard fact /stats backed argument why Wes shouldn''t be in this team. Its always "but he loses the ball too often" (ok well lets get rid of Holt as well he does it more, with far less of the ball) or he''s too lightweight, he can''t play left midfield (Wrong, if you didn''t watch the games go back and check the match reports!).

Should he play every game? No, the opposition should dictate chosen team and tactics. Is he overrated? Well I honestly don''t think some fans give him sufficient praise in the first place.

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It is our midfield that should be chipping in with the goals just now

Premier league goals this season

Strikers 6 (24% of our goals)

Midfield 11 (44%)

Defence 8 (32%

Morty - I would suggest our midfield have been scoring - for us this season; cant recall many chips though.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]It is our midfield that should be chipping in with the goals just now

Premier league goals this season

Strikers 6 (24% of our goals)

Midfield 11 (44%)

Defence 8 (32%

Morty - I would suggest our midfield have been scoring - for us this season; cant recall many chips though.[/quote]Interesting stat actually.But they still need to score more in total.No, no chips lol.

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Wes is over rated by us Norwich fans ... as are all our players ! Why ? Because we are their ''fans''.

Only player that is highly rated from outside of our fan base is Ruddy & Bassong

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Actually Crispy Wes has always received a lot of praise from opposition fans, media outlets (read plenty of articles from an Irish perspective questioning why he wasn''t in their squad at various points, as well as seeing lots of tweets from non-Norwich fans).

I can remember on two occasions after away games hearing home fans talk about Wes afterwards. Once at Chelsea when I was waiting around after the game as I wasn''t in a rush to get the train home, and then again after I think the Villa game, on the train surrounded by Villa fans...

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Not sure why wiz is using the term "over rated"?

Is it because he (Hoolahan) is in the team ahead of Fox ?

Frankly I think both Fox & Hoolahan should be in the starting line up. These two are two of our most creative players - you just need to look at how well the team played last season when these two were paired together

Both are not natural goalscorers but both link the attack superbly from midfield- look at the team this season without this combination - completely one dimensional & rudderless.

Fox did look ineffective against Luton but that''s not his fault - he''s not match conditioned/match fit due to the lack of competitive matches - the club''s fault here.

But in keeping with his structure Houghton is not going to play too many "lightweights" and if I had to pick one of the two it would be Hoolahan - why ? because if there is no movement upfield, Fox will be forced to pass sideways - people will see this as being ineffective. With Hoolahan (playing further upfield) with his close control he can receive the ball, twist away from his markers and start an attack.

So Wiz agree that Fox should be in the team however Hoolahan is probably the most under rated player by the fans at the club.

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@Gingerpele

Sure he will have his good games and stand out every now and again as mentioned but I was coming from the perspective of a casual Premiership fan ..... & I think Ruddy & Holt will be on most people''s lips ( albeit Holt hasn''t won any fans this year). On another note I got completely shot down in pre-season when I suggested Holt wouldn''t come close to scoring as many goals this season as he did the last.

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Crispy, you weren''t the only person to suggest that. A large number (larger than there should have been anyway) of fans every season since he joined have doubted him in the upcoming season. I remember people being disappointed we signed Holt and not Lee. Then doubted he''d be as effective in the Championship, same at the beginning of last season, even many of those who thought he''d do well said he wouldn''t get double figures in the league.

Back on topic, maybe the casual fan doesn''t talk about Hoolahan that much. But anyone who knows anything knows he''s very good. Plenty of examples of fans of other teams who''ve seen him up against them liking him, commentators on the streams often big him up, and the Irish fans/media like him. He probably comes after Rudd, Holt and Bassong in terms of other fans/media praise for our players, but certainly isn''t neglected or anything like that.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]It is our midfield that should be chipping in with the goals just now Premier league goals this season Strikers 6 (24% of our goals) Midfield 11 (44%) Defence 8 (32% Morty - I would suggest our midfield have been scoring - for us this season; cant recall many chips though.[/quote]

But they still need to score more in total.

[/quote]

 

Agreed - I would say the defence has done its bit and its the front 6 that need to add more - but most pressure on the strikers.

 

Kei Kamara  - the time is right,  come on down...

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[quote user="Mister Chops"]It''s also interesting that posters who have complained about our boring and negative style of play believe the remedy is to drop Wes Hoolahan.

Wiz, let''s have some answers from you.  Who would you play instead of him and what formation would you send out?

[/quote]

 

Honest question deserves an honest answer from me Mr C.

 

I''d start with Howsen in Wes''s place, drop him to the bench and use him as a sub in the last 25 minutes if things aren''t working.

 

Also Tetty would go in favour of Fox, who imo, is the best crosser we''ve got, Tierny would replace Garrido as he supports wide players better, again imo.

 

And I''d play without fear and go 2 up front and sod the risks!

 

Well, you did ask. [:$]

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[quote user="Wiz"]

You won''t like this, but yes in my book.

 

He always seems to run into dead ends, as he does giving the ball away or losing it, even to the point of setting up attacking options...........for the opposition!

 

His creative skills are now being smothered out by Premier teams who know now how to play him.

 

Would it be best to sell him now while we can?

 

If I''m wrong please educate me, minus insults, as to why. [:|]

[/quote]

Your post does not deserve a dignified response, due to your constant abuse of the players who play for a team you supposedly support.

You are a Muppet of the highest order. Now go and stick your head up a dead bears bum.

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Wow, are you serious Wiz? If so your making yourself look silly.

Wes is underrated if anything. You put Wes in a Man City or United team and he would get the recognition his talent deserves.

As much as we all love Snoddy and Pilky and Holty, they do make Wes look bad a lot. Often Wes has limited options and just doesnt have the players around him to compliment his skills.

Ive likened him to being our Silva or Nasri etc. If Wes had Ageuro or Van Persie or Rooney etc. ahead of him and around him youd really see how good he is.

As it is he suffers by not having better players around him.

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Clearly Wes is not over rated. He is the best passer at the club and a dangerous player. My main criticism of Wes would be his lack of goals at this level. Playing off the striker you would think he could chip in with a few more.

Like all our forward players he is a little hamstrung by our defensive approach.

Of all the forward players Snodgrass has impressed most this season. He has been an excellent signing and is a quality player. His ability to buy and take a free kick has been especially effective.

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Yes he is well over rated, 2 assist for a "creative" player is shocking imo, he has lost the ball far more times then that of any other player this season runs around in a circle and people think he''s messi..

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[quote user="barclay_boy111"]Yes he is well over rated, 2 assist for a "creative" player is shocking imo, he has lost the ball far more times then that of any other player this season runs around in a circle and people think he''s messi..[/quote]

 

No one thinks he is messi

 

BJ and Holt are the two players who have lost possession most for us this season,  and there are plenty more before we get to Wes.   He DOES get dispossed the most - but thats something different.

 

Yes - 2 assists is not what we want,   but even the best only has 3 for us this year!   At least he did not cost multi millions like stewart downing who went a whole season with a goal or an assist for liverpool last year ;-)

 

 

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" Wes is underrated if anything. You put Wes in a Man City or United team and he would get the recognition his talent deserves. "

No way. I love Wes but that''s no where near the truth.

People get bought for big clubs based on performance, stats & consistency. No way Wes has played well enough to get there attention. A midfielder / 2nd striker needs to get more that couple of goals and assists to deserve a shot in a top 6 team.

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