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First Wizard

Is Wes over rated?

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You won''t like this, but yes in my book.

 

He always seems to run into dead ends, as he does giving the ball away or losing it, even to the point of setting up attacking options...........for the opposition!

 

His creative skills are now being smothered out by Premier teams who know now how to play him.

 

Would it be best to sell him now while we can?

 

If I''m wrong please educate me, minus insults, as to why. [:|]

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If anything Wes is UNDERRATED.

He is the only man in our squad who can think of that little piece of magic to unlock a defence set up an attack.

He''s willing to try something that might give the ball away, yes, but when he gets it right it''s a joy to behold.

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[quote user="Wiz"]

You won''t like this, but yes in my book.

 

He always seems to run into dead ends, as he does giving the ball away or losing it, even to the point of setting up attacking options...........for the opposition!

 

His creative skills are now being smothered out by Premier teams who know now how to play him.

 

Would it be best to sell him now while we can?

 

If I''m wrong please educate me, minus insults, as to why. [:|]

[/quote]

 

If we could, so we could spend the money on someone else, it might be an idea. But we can''t, so it isn''t.

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He has the highest pass completion rate in our side.... So no, he does not always seem to run into dead ends and give the ball away. I would say he rarely does that, considering how much he gets the ball.

He may not be directly setting up or scoring many, but if you can''t see what he is doing then there isn''t really much point discussing it. He is still very important. I wouldn''t mind him being dropped for a game or two, maybe more permanently and have him playing from the bench to allow two proper wingers and two proper strikers to play. But that would mean relying on Pilks being more consistent.

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That''s right up there for a Wiz OP but at least we''ve moved on from Hughton or Delia bashing.  I''ll entertain you, by kind of agreeing, but say that is the fault of us putting all our eggs in one basket.  He is no mircale worker, so people''s perceptions that he is our main player may get over-hyped.  But that is our fault (and Hughton''s?) not his. 

 

His biggest fault is not finding the killer pass often enough.  But there are many who will say that is as much a fault of his colleagues not trying to find a space for him.  And then I''d say well that is because it really is bloody difficult to second guess WTF Wessi is going to do next.  If only it was that difficult for defenders, who on the whole just have to nudge him there, poke at the ball there, before snatching the ball away from him. 

 

He also should try and shoot more often, but his natural body position on one of his runs is not facing goal, like for example Bale.  This means he never really is set to have a shot.  But he has proven he can be a fox in the box if others try to feed him with a lob over the defence within the penalty area - we really should try and do this more often but invariably he doesn''t try to get into the box but is always seeking to take control of the ball outside the area - his own worst enemey perhaps.

 

Some might say that this is because the opposition invariably double team him.  Yes, that''s true, so we should work out a way of not just passing to him but working a clear space for him to do his magic. 

 

On his day he is unplayable, but that doesn''t happen often enough. I really hoped his goal for Eire would see him come out all guns blazing against Fulham, but it just didn''t happen.

 

But the bottom line is he is the only player we have who we can play the ball out of defence to who might just be able to keep the ball and eventually play another in.  I just wish it wasn''t our only route forward.

 

In conclusion I think we do not make the most of Wessi - he could be worthy of being hyped more.  But we''re currently asking him to do too much of the wrong thing.  We need to find a way of releasing him a little more in and around the box, but I fear that is as much to do with him rather than our inability to coach others around him.

 

Who next Wiz?

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No, not at all. He''s one of the best players this club has had in the last 20 years.

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Yes wiz,  you are wrong to think we should sell Wes.   As you whether he is over or under rated I dont know.   He is a senior member of our squad and at the moment better than the players we have as options for that position.  As such he should probably start.  Is he a first name on the team sheet?  No.

 

What Wes does more than any other play is get dispossed.   If you look when this happens its because he is dribbling at the opponents - takibng the game to them - and is often limited with an out ball due to lack of movement support from the striker and midfielders.

 

His pass success rate is one of the highest in the club and overall per game he loses possesion less often then Holt, BJ, or Pilkington.  Its just we seem to notice him being dispossed more often then yet another misplaced pass from BJ.  Perhaps we just expect too much. 

 

His defensive work is under-rated - covering huge amounts of ground and in many games making and winning as many tackles as our so called defensive midfielders.   More importantly he makes himself available for the ball,  giving an out option to the team.

 

Finally we have looked much better with him in the team than without as he seems to bring a spark. 

 

He does have off games and his invisible right leg is a constant frustration.  But I do feel he is a player we should want at the club rather than at another.

 

For me he has been one of our top 4/5 performers this season 

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One aspect of his game that is overlooked is his work rate, he never seems to give in. He always wants the ball and wants to get us ticking,

He always tries right until the 87th minute when he gets taken off.....

I also would not mind seeing him dropped for a couple of games to allow us to play a kinda 442 and see how we get on. He is always on the bench to allow us to slot back in to hughtons 451 if we are winning or things are not working at all

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Thats a top reply Sheff, but I''m a huge David Fox fan, best passer of a ball at the club by a country mile, good at free kicks and can really cross a ball, all things imo, which Wes can''t do.

 

His omission from the team is the real reason as to why the goals have dried up.

 

But thats taking this thread off topic.

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Perhaps inconsistent rather than overrated? Or is it that some other defences have worked out how to deal with him?

He is capable of holding on to the ball, which is by no means unimportant, but sometimes he does run into bland alleys. Perhaps teams have learned how to force him into these.

I am not sure whether he is the best short passer - Surman''s touches and even Howson''s passes push him close, and he is not in the same class as Fox when it comes to long passes.

 

My concern with him is really twofold. 

- He is not a great goal scorer, although he has scored one good goal this year with his head, and he does not have a great shot, even with his left foot. Shouldn''t someone who plays well forward be expected to threaten the goal more, even if his main task is to supply others?

- In our present formation he fequently has no-one to pass to, as Holt has gone wide in searching for the ball. This is not his fault - if there is no striker at hand, he obviously can''t create much. I think that other clubs struggled to find his best position, and he blossomed under Lambert with the diamond formation in the Championship and League one. At present, however, his gifts are being underused.

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I was thinking during the QPR game that when we have the ball and are looking to work it forward, a lot of our players are very predictable and limited in what they''ll do.  E.g. Tettey (and I''m a big fan of Tettey) normally is looking for a simple ball to RM or Snoddy on the right which isn''t bad, but I wish he''d try to get forward and look for a more penetrating ball as I think he''s got the quality to do more for us going forward.  Similarly Garrido will either play the ball forward to the winger in front of him if - and only if- the winger is clearly open, otherwise he''ll pass back to the centre.  He won''t try anything more risky going forward.

 

For creative play we are generally reliant on Wes, Snoddy, Pilks.  Wes has been our biggest creative contributor this season but as has been pointed out, he needs others to move and creating openings for him to pass to, which has been lacking sometimes.  This gives some spectators the impression he runs into dead-ends or gives the ball away.  It is because he is trying (and often succeeding with) more creative moves, inevitably this is more risky than a simple sideways ball, but it is the only way to create chances and score goals.

 

E.g. if you look at his through ball to Holt in the Swansea game which let to the foul which brought the winning goal, it was superb, but if he hadn''t struck it perfectly it would have gone to a Swansea player.

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[quote user="Wiz"]

Thats a top reply Sheff, but I''m a huge David Fox fan, best passer of a ball at the club by a country mile, good at free kicks and can really cross a ball, all things imo, which Wes can''t do.

 

His omission from the team is the real reason as to why the goals have dried up.

 

But thats taking this thread off topic.

[/quote]

I''m a David Fox fan but if he was that good he''d be in the team (or even on the bench more than he has been).

 

It''d hurt the club more to lose Wes than it would Fox.

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Okay, I didn''t want to pander to the usual attempt to attention seek, but I shall.Anyone who has gone to games in the last 5 seasons surely can''t question Wes''s quality, at best he is unplayable, at worst he has been a creative shining star in the middle of some very average performances.He plays a specific role that sometimes stifles other players, but he has been the heartbeat of this team, managers build the team around him.And frankly he''s better now than he has ever been. When Lambert dropped him all those years ago it was justified, and he came back fitter and working harder.Anyone who considers Wes not good enough, frankly doesn''t know squit about football.

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[quote user="GJP"][quote user="Wiz"]

Thats a top reply Sheff, but I''m a huge David Fox fan, best passer of a ball at the club by a country mile, good at free kicks and can really cross a ball, all things imo, which Wes can''t do.

 

His omission from the team is the real reason as to why the goals have dried up.

 

But thats taking this thread off topic.

[/quote]

I''m a David Fox fan but if he was that good he''d be in the team (or even on the bench more than he has been).

 

It''d hurt the club more to lose Wes than it would Fox.

[/quote]

 

That comes down to a managers decision....and I''m not taking this thread there!

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[quote user="morty"]Okay, I didn''t want to pander to the usual attempt to attention seek, but I shall.

Anyone who has gone to games in the last 5 seasons surely can''t question Wes''s quality, at best he is unplayable, at worst he has been a creative shining star in the middle of some very average performances.

He plays a specific role that sometimes stifles other players, but he has been the heartbeat of this team, managers build the team around him.

And frankly he''s better now than he has ever been. When Lambert dropped him all those years ago it was justified, and he came back fitter and working harder.

Anyone who considers Wes not good enough, frankly doesn''t know squit about football.

[/quote]

 

I''ll conceed the going to games bit morty, you get a bigger picture etc etc.

 

But because my opinion is different to yours that doesn''t mean its squit, mostly this season, I''ve had to rely on live streams for City games, albeit in superb HD, so my view is of course based on that.

 

And believe me, as I have the advantage of instant replays, Wes, imo, fu*cks our side up at times.

 

But you cannot beat being there.........I''ll agree on that.

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[quote user="Wiz"]

[quote user="morty"]Okay, I didn''t want to pander to the usual attempt to attention seek, but I shall.Anyone who has gone to games in the last 5 seasons surely can''t question Wes''s quality, at best he is unplayable, at worst he has been a creative shining star in the middle of some very average performances.He plays a specific role that sometimes stifles other players, but he has been the heartbeat of this team, managers build the team around him.And frankly he''s better now than he has ever been. When Lambert dropped him all those years ago it was justified, and he came back fitter and working harder.Anyone who considers Wes not good enough, frankly doesn''t know squit about football.[/quote]

 

I''ll conceed the going to games bit morty, you get a bigger picture etc etc.

 

But because my opinion is different to yours that doesn''t mean its squit, mostly this season, I''ve had to rely on live streams for City games, albeit in superb HD, so my view is of course based on that.

 

And believe me, as I have the advantage of instant replays, Wes, imo, fu*cks our side up at times.

 

But you cannot beat being there.........I''ll agree on that.

[/quote]Its frankly exactly the same as Barca building their side around Messi.Yes, sometimes it tactically chokes us, because Wes is neither a midfielder (too lightweight in the tackle) nor is he a winger (too slow) his ideal position is in the hole behind a single striker, or at the tip of the diamond.So the manager starts with Wes and picks around him. And the manager must think a lot of him if he is willing to do this.

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Also, every players aim is to train and play well enough in every match, to not give the manager a reason to drop him.People are wringing their hands enough about our current uninspiring football at the minute, can you imagine the outrage if Wes were dropped?He is the one player that has the ability to pick the ball up and take it past men.

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Wes is the most gifted player at the club.

 

Testimony to how important he is, is that when he is omitted from the starting 11 it is immediately clear that we look a better side and more dangerous with him in it.

 

This is why the much vaunted plan B is so difficult to sort out. To change to two up top, realistically we have to drop our best player, Wes, as he just doesn''t fit into a flat 4-4-2. Hughton is a start at the back kind of guy so I don''t think he fancies going 3 at the back, but the system we play is the one that suits Hoolahan. The one that he fits into.

 

It''s easy to be critical of this at the moment, we aren''t playing particularly well, we aren''t scoring, we''re not winning. I''d argue that we don''t have the personnel to change it all that much. Elliot Bennett certainly hasn''t grabbed his chance, Fox, Surman et al were terrible against Luton, I''m just not sure what people expect Hughton to magic up.

 

For me, we need Holt, Hoolahan, Snodgrass, Johnson, Tettey, Bassong, Turner and ideally Ruddy on the pitch to stand the best chance of winning games. I might even be tempted to add Garrido and Whittaker to the list and when I look at it like that, it seems we''ve got a decent first 11 but no depth. And that, I think, is where the problem lies.

 

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What I find interesting is that under Lambert, Fox and Thierny played a lot of games in the Premier and more than coped well.

 

Suddnly, they''re not good enough............hmm?

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[quote user="Wiz"]

What I find interesting is that under Lambert, Fox and Thierny played a lot of games in the Premier and more than coped well.

 

Suddnly, they''re not good enough............hmm?

[/quote]Do you understand that we got away with murder last season? We were the surprise package, we had the momentum of two promotions behind us. Do you consider that they were the best players we had at the time, and we now have better players?Do you perhaps consider, that the players you mention aren''t good enough to fit into how Hughton wants to play, and showed this when they got their chance to shine in the Luton game.Seriously, isn''t all this obvious?

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Personally I always thought we had to accommodate wes.

I felt our team had to play a 451 as we went up the leagues. Yes the diamond worked in league 1 and in the championship but I always though the higher the leagues you go the harder it would be to accomodate wes. But I do see teams struggle with him, but they do know he is not a goal threat. Therefore if we have money to spend in the summer then I can see other players coming in and his playing time decreasing. We do not want to be a one man team relying on wes next season for that creative spark.

So is he over-rated, I think we rate him highly due to what we have had and do have. I also think pundits are right that most things go through wes and we don''t hide that. But I do think that most teams in this league are happy for him to do his stuff as the goal threat and final ball in the final third is lacking.

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He is our most technically gifted player without a doubt, but in my mind not really direct enough for the Premier League.  He beats his man, then it''s touch, touch, touch before playing a pass.  It needs to be beat the man and pass, but he normally takes too much time.

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[quote user="Wiz"]

What I find interesting is that under Lambert, Fox and Thierny played a lot of games in the Premier and more than coped well.

 

Suddnly, they''re not good enough............hmm?

[/quote]

Tierney was never that great last season, tried saying that at the time. He did alright in some games but his performances were generally overrated.

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Wiz, this is spooky, earlier I was reading the post about what team we should play vs Everton and this almost triggered me to post a similar subject regarding Wes, but I decided not to do it as felt I would just get insults, told I didnt know what I was talking about etc (you klnow all about that) and it wouldnt stimulate a decent balanced debate. So, thanks for posting, it''s a good subject to discuss and has actually stimulated some good responses....because these are the sprts of things message boards are all about.

Now, hate to say this, but having read that earlier post I came to the conclusion that vs Everton I would actually not play Wes, but that doesnt mean I think he is over rated.

I just think that when he is in the team the shape of the team becomes very rigid, we have become a bit predictable and like somebody elsehas said the opposition has found us out. 

For where our club is right now, Wes is certainly one of the most talented players we have on our books. I like seeing him play.......BUT, regardless of his percentages I still dont think he is, shall we say.....one of those "match winner" types of players, as he rarely comes up with the killer pass or a goal created out of nothing......this is now what he needs to do more often, actually a thread a month or so ago discussed this and he scored immediately afterwards......but I dont think he has done that much since in terms of something crucial.

He is a very valuable member of the squad, who perhaps has been over used a little this season, I guess because CH doesnt see that many better options within the squad, which maybe true..........perhaps like me CH thinks that Fox IS over rated, sorry Wiz, but I do and have never really understood all of the fuss to be honest, he is decent, a good squad player (for where we are right now) ...I digress...that''s a topic for another thread.     

Anyway, over rated....Wes.....depends on what you are looking for.....I just can''t make my mind about this one......a match winner vs Everton when we really need it, then I guess I will have to say NO.......OTBC

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