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Pete Raven

Norwich City in plea to persistent standers

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Point one - It''s persistent.

 

Point two - That''s pedantic.

 

Point three - I understand that people want to stand, indeed I have done so on many an occasion both home and away. BUT the bottom line is - and all other arguments are redundant whether you like it or not - it is an All Seater stadium and persistent standing breaches regulations which could result in the club not being issued with a safety certificate.

 

In other news, why do people act differently away from home? Do you watch Football Factory the night before and iron your best Hackett threads too?

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "]Your away argument is pretty point because for me to sit then the row in front has to sit in which is in most cases no the case.
[/quote]

 

It''s not pretty pointless to the poor old guy who can''t see though is it? But as long as you can blame the bloke in front that lets you out.

 

One more time.. If you wanted to stand that much you would have done what I did. Or don''t your mates want to stand either?

 

 

 

 

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I think its quite clear what persistent standing is in practice,   its those fans that having been asked to do so argue about and then dont sit.

 

I have experienced as good atmospheres in both seated and standing areas.   I love the sway and movement of a stand and am all for their reintroduction.

 

However isnt the issue of our safety certificate dependent on being able to demonstrate that we comply with being an all seated stadium?    And are the FA rules still that you can only remain in the top two tiers if you have seated only stadia?  (not sure if that has changed - I think any promoted club to the champs needs plans to upgrade or close standing areas after x number of seasons?)

 

Until standing areas are permitted there is nothing the club can do beyond what we can do as fans - that is petition for a change in the regulations to enable clubs and fans to make a choice.

 

In the meantime  dont the T&C of ticket sales point out you are only in the ground at the agreement of the club,  and the criteria will include complying with safety notices and stewards requests.      

 

Accept the club and stewards are currently between a rock and a hard place and blame them there authorities - not the enforcers.  

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "]All these threads seem to be full of arguments.
[/quote]

 

What did you expect? Are you that simple as to think that if you called someone a cnut they''d just take it?

 

Actually.....

 

 

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "]All these threads seem to be full of arguments.[/quote]No they don''t.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Accept the club and stewards are currently between a rock and a hard place and blame them there authorities - not the enforcers.  

[/quote]

 

I tried that one but got called a cnut for my trouble. However I''m luvvin'' the fall out[Y]

 

 

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"Seated areas are not designed to safely accommodate large numbers of supporters standing either in front of their seats or in aisles and gangways."

So I presume there will be no more concerts held at Carrow Road in the future, the Jehovah''s Witness convention will be affected too as they are always standing throughout their services. I take it also that we will no longer be asked to stand for a minutes silence in remembrance for things like Hilllsborough.

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[quote user="Plan b"]"Seated areas are not designed to safely accommodate large numbers of supporters standing either in front of their seats or in aisles and gangways." So I presume there will be no more concerts held at Carrow Road in the future, the Jehovah''s Witness convention will be affected too as they are always standing throughout their services. I take it also that we will no longer be asked to stand for a minutes silence in remembrance for things like Hilllsborough.[/quote]

 

How does that help the steward who''s been instructed to enforce the ground regulations from which the club''s safety certificate is granted?

 

 

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As everyone knows all seater stadia were introduced post Hillsborough.

 

The problem at Hillsborough wasn''t the standing per se; it was the overfilling of the stands whether on an allocated capacity with matching ticket sales being too high, or additional people gaining access in addition to the pre-determined capacity or most likely because latecomers all headed for the nearest pen which was also the one behind the goal so that particular section far exceeded the allocation

 

You cannot sell a section of terrace but you can sell an individual numbered seat and that distrubutes the crowd evenly.

 

The roots of all this go back much further than a single disaster and the blame and the shame, then and now, is a shared one.

 

Whilst there have always been crowd disasters it has to be recognised that in earlier times society was about collectivism as opposed to individualism as it became during the 1980''s and still persists to this day. This is a big subject but for me, as regards football, it manifested itself in huge crowds behaving responsibly as a self-identified unit and allowed huge densities of people of all type to accumilate. I still remember, as a child, being seen through to the front of the River End, by adults who saw this as accepted practice so the children could see the game.

 

Even when things went wrong, single policemen on horses could direct a crowd because the crowd accepted being directed as happened in the famous Wembley final.

 

After World War II in came mass youth cultures which rebelled against elders and establishment. For those brought up on Simon Cowell this would seem really radical. These cultures manifested into disobedience and finally, in the 1970''s led to football violence which severely damaged the game. England World Cup winners found themselves playing into an era of abusive chants, pitch invasions, terrace invasions, mass fights in and out of the ground and as a result, increased segrigation and pitch barriers.

 

Many of us will remember the barriers erected at Norwich; but the one I remembe r most was at The Dell, Southampton, when 30 or so of us were put into a three sided mesh cage although at many grounds we got no segregation at all and with the paltry away attendences we generated then were limited to simply spectating and watching our backs.  Even on the rare occasions of being able to afford a seat the experience was little better.

 

Football fans became derided en-masse as some sort of scum. Yes, there was a new breed of ''celebrity'' fan, but overall we were the scum of Europe and banned from playing in European competition. Politicians and club owners added to the rhetoric until it became okay to paint all football fans with the same brush and treat them accordingly. This dehumanising of football supporters made it easier in the end, as with all derided groups, to treat them badly. No one would have cared enough in the lead up to Hillsborough to worry about putting people behind cages or crushing the largest group of fans in the smallest end stand.

 

So, today when I see Liverpool supporters standing at games it strikes me as ironic. When I see individuals run onto the pitch and assault a player because there is no physical barrier to prevent them it infuriates me because of what this led to in the past. When I hear abusive chants or worse still the absolute low-lifes who think their voices need to be heard during pre-kick off silences - as happened at the last England Wembley game it makes me sick because this reflects on all football supporters.

 

But the safety aspect with seats is not the standing during games. It is selfish in the modern day because stands are more mixed and it affects others where in the past every fanatic in The Barclay was a knowing participant. Seating has created this problem. But when a goal is scored there is a sudden upward momentum and jumping around far more dangerous than simply standing as is the movement to and from seats.

 

No, seats are not safer because we are sat down, they are safer because the density of people is distributed in a way terracing cannot do. The crowd is more easily monitored, standing stewards can see over heads, CCTV can pick out individuals who are more physically accesible to crowd controllers and more often than not the individual can be immediately identified by the seat so behave through vulnerability to repercussions. The abuse complained of by a recent poster towards his father by a group of youths in The Barclay was attributable in no small measure to the fact they were right away from their points of identification, their seats.

 

If everyone in a seated section acquiesced to standing then seating is clearly safe. If not, it becomes a source of agitation.

 

The Barclay consists of relatively shallow terracing and is easy to enforce. The away section in The Jarrold is not and it looks like one rule for away fans and one for home with any recriminations impacting disproportionately hard on the home fans. What I would like to see is a progressive reduction in away supporter allocations season on season for breaching ground regulations. ie, if 2500 Arsenal fans persistently stand this season, then should we play them next year their allocation is reduced by 20% and so on until their number is enforcable on match days.

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It is a bit of a stretch to believe that stadiums that are designed to be all seater to stop another hillsborough type disaster are now apparently such a death trap if people aren''t sitting down in them.

They should just come out and say it straight, they simply don''t want football fans standing up.

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Yet another game with no atmosphere then. No 12th man then, guess the manager has said we are not needed.

Do any of you who want to sit all game have a way of making it a good atmosphere or is this now a thing of the past?

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If our fans really dont want us to stand then why do so many people stand at away games?Standing = better atmosphere. Some people want to go to football and not scream or shout or anything- others want to back their team.Away games are better (in my opinion) because the people that go wish to back their team vocally. Doris and her old dearie mates... do not.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Plan b"]"Seated areas are not designed to safely accommodate large numbers of supporters standing either in front of their seats or in aisles and gangways." So I presume there will be no more concerts held at Carrow Road in the future, the Jehovah''s Witness convention will be affected too as they are always standing throughout their services. I take it also that we will no longer be asked to stand for a minutes silence in remembrance for things like Hilllsborough.[/quote]

 

How does that help the steward who''s been instructed to enforce the ground regulations from which the club''s safety certificate is granted?

 

 

[/quote]

I''m not having a pop at the stewards, they are just doing their very hard job of trying to control a large group of very vocal men, I wouldn''t want to do it. I''m just saying that the reasons the club and the FA give for standing completely contradicts when it comes to the same stadiums host other events. I''m betting a fair bit of income for Wembley Stadium will come from concerts but I doubt no promoter would want to hold them there if the owners of the ground, the FA, didn''t allow the punters to stand during the concert.

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It is not ''health and safety''. It is ground regulations, something the club is subject to as are you by entering the ground.

 

The real question is one of liability. Were there to be any accident that could in anyway be attributed to fans standing in a seating area it is most likely the clubs insurance would try to weasel out of any payment. Since 2007 the directors of a company could be held criminally responsible for such events.

 

I''m not too sure whether the ground would be closed but I would put this to you -

 

Were you to give me a lift to Carrow Road and I paid you petrol how would you react if your insurance company insisted that both of us wore a seat belt. No problem, I would assume. But what would be your reaction be if I flatly refused to wear the belt even though it would mean you having to cough up out of your own pocket for any accident claim (up to a million or more) and face possible imprisonment as well. In the meantime I was sat in your car bleating on about the ''health and safety police''.

 

Of course the club can take the risk and argue that there is a greater risk of greater public order concerns by trying to implement a no standing policy. However given the possible liabilities most are opting for the ''safe'' option.

 

As to there being standing areas in Englsih grounds then that requires a change in regulation, behaving like a child at the ground won''t change that.

 

 

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New version:

"Cross your arms if you hate the scum"

or

"stamp your feet"

or

"slap your knees"

anything other than standing up these days!

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[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]If our fans really dont want us to stand then why do so many people stand at away games?Standing = better atmosphere. Some people want to go to football and not scream or shout or anything- others want to back their team.Away games are better (in my opinion) because the people that go wish to back their team vocally. Doris and her old dearie mates... do not.[/quote]This is only your opinion.So when you''re grown up, and don''t want to stand anymore, you''ll stop going to matches?

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[quote user="City1st"]

It is not ''health and safety''. It is ground regulations, something the club is subject to as are you by entering the ground.

 

The real question is one of liability. Were there to be any accident that could in anyway be attributed to fans standing in a seating area it is most likely the clubs insurance would try to weasel out of any payment. Since 2007 the directors of a company could be held criminally responsible for such events.

 

I''m not too sure whether the ground would be closed but I would put this to you -

 

Were you to give me a lift to Carrow Road and I paid you petrol how would you react if your insurance company insisted that both of us wore a seat belt. No problem, I would assume. But what would be your reaction be if I flatly refused to wear the belt even though it would mean you having to cough up out of your own pocket for any accident claim (up to a million or more) and face possible imprisonment as well. In the meantime I was sat in your car bleating on about the ''health and safety police''.

 

Of course the club can take the risk and argue that there is a greater risk of greater public order concerns by trying to implement a no standing policy. However given the possible liabilities most are opting for the ''safe'' option.

 

As to there being standing areas in Englsih grounds then that requires a change in regulation, behaving like a child at the ground won''t change that.

 

 

[/quote]It is not ''health and safety''. It is ground regulations, something the club is subject to as are you by entering the ground.Ground regulations are there for health and safety reasons as they don''t want anyone to get injured, people don''t want to get sued!

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]If our fans really dont want us to stand then why do so many people stand at away games?Standing = better atmosphere. Some people want to go to football and not scream or shout or anything- others want to back their team.Away games are better (in my opinion) because the people that go wish to back their team vocally. Doris and her old dearie mates... do not.[/quote]This is only your opinion.So when you''re grown up, and don''t want to stand anymore, you''ll stop going to matches?[/quote]No you''d move away from the safe standing area to a seated area?

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "]No you''d move away from the safe standing area to a seated area?[/quote]WHAT safe standing area?

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[quote user="Plan b"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Plan b"]"Seated areas are not designed to safely accommodate large numbers of supporters standing either in front of their seats or in aisles and gangways." So I presume there will be no more concerts held at Carrow Road in the future, the Jehovah''s Witness convention will be affected too as they are always standing throughout their services. I take it also that we will no longer be asked to stand for a minutes silence in remembrance for things like Hilllsborough.[/quote]

 

How does that help the steward who''s been instructed to enforce the ground regulations from which the club''s safety certificate is granted?

 

 

[/quote] I''m not having a pop at the stewards, they are just doing their very hard job of trying to control a large group of very vocal men, I wouldn''t want to do it. I''m just saying that the reasons the club and the FA give for standing completely contradicts when it comes to the same stadiums host other events. I''m betting a fair bit of income for Wembley Stadium will come from concerts but I doubt no promoter would want to hold them there if the owners of the ground, the FA, didn''t allow the punters to stand during the concert.[/quote]

 

Yes buddy. And you make good points. But that isn''t where we''re at. While the law is as it is it will be enforced. We all knew this was coming. For the club to openly allow sections of the stadium not to comply with ground regulations would be madness. And for safety certificates to be given in the knowledge that the regulations were openly ignored would also be madness. If there was an incident, however minor, the club and the people who issued the cerificate would suddenly be in a very difficult position.

 

 

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]If our fans really dont want us to stand then why do so many people stand at away games?Standing = better atmosphere. Some people want to go to football and not scream or shout or anything- others want to back their team.Away games are better (in my opinion) because the people that go wish to back their team vocally. Doris and her old dearie mates... do not.[/quote]This is only your opinion.So when you''re grown up, and don''t want to stand anymore, you''ll stop going to matches?[/quote]No you''d move away from the safe standing area to a seated area?[/quote]Apparently some people cant understand that the pro standing people fully accept that there should be standing/non standing areas..Instead deciding to think that we want FCR to become all standing which isnt the case at all.But hey ho.

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It''s clearly a case that NCFC have been targeted by the authorities, hence the announcement early in the 2nd half against Fulham.  The club have to be seen to be doing all they can to get fans to sit down.  Many of our stewards are fans and can be seen standing at away games, but they''re just doing the job asked of them.  NCFC are currently in the spotlight, sit down for 5 minutes when asked tomorrow and soon the attention will move somewhere else.I''d love to see a safe standing area at Norwich, but until laws allow it''s not going to happen and we have to put up with this situation every few years.

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]If our fans really dont want us to stand then why do so many people stand at away games?

Standing = better atmosphere. Some people want to go to football and not scream or shout or anything- others want to back their team.

Away games are better (in my opinion) because the people that go wish to back their team vocally. Doris and her old dearie mates... do not.
[/quote]

This is only your opinion.

So when you''re grown up, and don''t want to stand anymore, you''ll stop going to matches?
[/quote]

No you''d move away from the safe standing area to a seated area?
[/quote]

 

But...there aren''t any standing areas. Safe or not and that, my old chum, is the point.

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[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]Of course its my opinion..Am I not allowed one anymore? [/quote]Oh don''t be so precious.

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r="Che''s right hand man "]r="morty"][r="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]If our fans really dont want us to stand then why do so many people stand at away games?Standing = better atmosphere. Some people want to go to football and not scream or shout or anything- others want to back their team.Away games are better (in my opinion) because the people that go wish to back their team vocally. Doris and her old dearie mates... do not.

This is only your opinion.So when you''re grown up, and don''t want to stand anymore, you''ll stop going to matches?

No you''d move away from the safe standing area to a seated area?

It was hypothetically.

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"Ground regulations are there for health and safety reasons as they don''t want anyone to get injured, people don''t want to get sued!"

 

So it is not health and safety, it is the avoidance of possible litigation

 

as stated

 

 

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