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Pete Raven

Norwich City in plea to persistent standers

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="......and Smith must score."][quote user="nutty nigel"]

No they haven''t said it''s a silly idea. It''s just that there''s a lot of silly people.

 

Whether or not clubs in the future can have safe standing areas is not the ishoooo. The present dictates that the club has to abide by the rules in the ground regulations. If you think shoft lifting should be made legal then there''s no point in expecting the police not to arrest you until you get the law changed.

[/quote]Not quite the same thing Nutty.Shoplifting is a criminal offence. Standing in an all-seater stadium is a civil matter so the police don''t get involved unless a criminal offence is committed as a result of someone not taking too kindly to being told to sit down.[/quote]

 

No you''re right Smithy. It''s not quite the same thing. But it''s the same principle. And if you''ve ever had terminal conversations with the beast and his little book then you''d know what I mean. Bottom line is that if ground regulations are ignored by either the supporters or the club or both then there will be consequences eventually. And this has quite obviously been brewing most of the season.

 

[/quote]Yes, I did know what you meant but you knew that anyway.[;)]It''ll be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. A sizeable contingent of bevvied-up Scousers being asked in a Capt Wilson , " Would you mind awfully ? " softly softly approach or will the stewards take no prisoners ? Either way I reckon the Old Bill in the away section will be earning their corn.Could see some uniform action in the Barclay and Snake Pit too, which, judging by our last few lame displays will at least provide some light entertainment and maybe stop us from dozing off again.[:D]

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I sit down at games because people around me sit down and there are children who sit there. On (the rare) moments of excitement we all stand and I encourage kids to stand on their seats so they can see over everybody.

That all said I would prefer to stand at games because I find it more comfortable. Also, having spent a fair bit of time in continental Europe watching a number of different teams, an atmosphere is far enhanced by people standing. That is undeniable in my experience. However I understand the laws in Britain but I believe that will change in the next few years and as a result the FA will be challenged to change their regulations. Whether that means Norwich will want to introduce safe standing then remains to be seen, but when the time comes I will most definitely be petitioning the club to have a safe standing section.

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[quote user="......and Smith must score."][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Ches right hand man "]All these threads seem to be full of arguments.
[/quote]

 

What did you expect? Are you that simple as to think that if you called someone a cnut they''d just take it?

 

Actually.....


[/quote]

Just shows what a crazy place this board is sometimes doesn''t it Nutty.

Here we have someone who sits obediently in the N & P out of '' politeness '' to his fellow fans then calls you a naughty four letter word on here.

Couldn''t make it up......
[/quote]

 

[:D][Y]

 

That''s what makes this place sooooo special[;)]

 

 

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A number of years ago, Manchester United were issued with a threat by Trafford

Council and the FLA to close sections of Old Trafford due to persistent

standing. In order to sanction that closure of stands, or sections of them, the

FLA and Trafford Council would have to prove in court that the proposed action

(closure of stands) is proportionate to the risks involved (risk to fans safety

due to persistent standing). Something they will never be able to do, as there

is no factual evidence of safety risks surrounding persistent standing in seated

areas (as far as I am aware). Although I stand to be corrected if any can be

produced.On the back of those threats, Manchester United engaged a

company to carry out an independent Risk Assessment on persistent standing at

Old Trafford. The only one of its kind as far as I am aware. The Risk Assessment

found that the most "dangerous" times at Old Trafford for fans to be out of

their seats, were before the game when fans were entering the stadium, during

halftime when fans made their way to the toilets and refreshment areas, at the

end of games when leaving en masse causing a crushing effect at exit gates, and

last but not least - during "moments of excitement" and goal

celebrations.As you will be aware, all of those "dangerous" situations

identified within the independent Risk Assessment, are deemed perfectly "safe"

by the FLA and their guidelines. All deemed "safe" and acceptable within the

content of the Safety Certificate.The Risk Assessment highlighted that

there was no apparent safety risk with standing during passive play. In other

words, persistent standing. The only safety risk highlighted involved those

standing on the first few rows of an upper tier, but again, this risk increased

massively during goal celebrations and other situations highlighted

above.Manchester United presented this Risk Assessment to Trafford

Council and the local Safety Advisory Group (SAG), and their threats of stand

closure and court appearances disappeared. Thousands of supporters at Old

Trafford have since stood for 90 minutes every week since then, and no sections

of the stands have been closed, or allocations reduced for away supporters.

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[8] "STAND UP! STAND UP!.....For Jesus....Ye soldiers of the cross......Lift high his royal banner....he must not suffer loss....." [8]

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Oh great , this means the snake pit will regail us with classics such as"We stand when we want , We stand when we want, "Nothing quite like getting behind your team.

TBH everyone should just sit the fcuk down and quit moaning.

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[quote user="Blofield Canary"]

A number of years ago, Manchester United were issued with a threat by Trafford

Council and the FLA to close sections of Old Trafford due to persistent

standing. In order to sanction that closure of stands, or sections of them, the

FLA and Trafford Council would have to prove in court that the proposed action

(closure of stands) is proportionate to the risks involved (risk to fans safety

due to persistent standing). Something they will never be able to do, as there

is no factual evidence of safety risks surrounding persistent standing in seated

areas (as far as I am aware). Although I stand to be corrected if any can be

produced.On the back of those threats, Manchester United engaged a

company to carry out an independent Risk Assessment on persistent standing at

Old Trafford. The only one of its kind as far as I am aware. The Risk Assessment

found that the most "dangerous" times at Old Trafford for fans to be out of

their seats, were before the game when fans were entering the stadium, during

halftime when fans made their way to the toilets and refreshment areas, at the

end of games when leaving en masse causing a crushing effect at exit gates, and

last but not least - during "moments of excitement" and goal

celebrations.As you will be aware, all of those "dangerous" situations

identified within the independent Risk Assessment, are deemed perfectly "safe"

by the FLA and their guidelines. All deemed "safe" and acceptable within the

content of the Safety Certificate.The Risk Assessment highlighted that

there was no apparent safety risk with standing during passive play. In other

words, persistent standing. The only safety risk highlighted involved those

standing on the first few rows of an upper tier, but again, this risk increased

massively during goal celebrations and other situations highlighted

above.Manchester United presented this Risk Assessment to Trafford

Council and the local Safety Advisory Group (SAG), and their threats of stand

closure and court appearances disappeared. Thousands of supporters at Old

Trafford have since stood for 90 minutes every week since then, and no sections

of the stands have been closed, or allocations reduced for away supporters.

[/quote]

Very interesting Blofield Canary. Is this information publicly available?

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[quote user="The Walking Man "][quote user="Blofield Canary"]

A number of years ago, Manchester United were issued with a threat by Trafford

Council and the FLA to close sections of Old Trafford due to persistent

standing. In order to sanction that closure of stands, or sections of them, the

FLA and Trafford Council would have to prove in court that the proposed action

(closure of stands) is proportionate to the risks involved (risk to fans safety

due to persistent standing). Something they will never be able to do, as there

is no factual evidence of safety risks surrounding persistent standing in seated

areas (as far as I am aware). Although I stand to be corrected if any can be

produced.On the back of those threats, Manchester United engaged a

company to carry out an independent Risk Assessment on persistent standing at

Old Trafford. The only one of its kind as far as I am aware. The Risk Assessment

found that the most "dangerous" times at Old Trafford for fans to be out of

their seats, were before the game when fans were entering the stadium, during

halftime when fans made their way to the toilets and refreshment areas, at the

end of games when leaving en masse causing a crushing effect at exit gates, and

last but not least - during "moments of excitement" and goal

celebrations.As you will be aware, all of those "dangerous" situations

identified within the independent Risk Assessment, are deemed perfectly "safe"

by the FLA and their guidelines. All deemed "safe" and acceptable within the

content of the Safety Certificate.The Risk Assessment highlighted that

there was no apparent safety risk with standing during passive play. In other

words, persistent standing. The only safety risk highlighted involved those

standing on the first few rows of an upper tier, but again, this risk increased

massively during goal celebrations and other situations highlighted

above.Manchester United presented this Risk Assessment to Trafford

Council and the local Safety Advisory Group (SAG), and their threats of stand

closure and court appearances disappeared. Thousands of supporters at Old

Trafford have since stood for 90 minutes every week since then, and no sections

of the stands have been closed, or allocations reduced for away supporters.

[/quote]

Very interesting Blofield Canary. Is this information available?[/quote]

 

Thanks for this info.. This is precisely the thing that was behind my earlier rant. I would have expected this issue to have been tested at a bigger club. ManUre should share this report with NcNally - anyone got firm details of this or a contact at that club.? Thishould stop the local SAG in their tracks.

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I think too much is being made of this. Most people would be happy with standing if it were legally sanctioned and there was a separate area for it.Saying fuck you to the club and your fellow supporters really isn''t the answer, and taking unilateral action is more likely to get the club in trouble, than it is likely to affect change.

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Stand if you want to stand, sit if you want to sit. It''s all a part of the game. I stand for 90 mins at the away games I go to which is most yet at the home games I sit for 90. There is no risk and the club won''t get any punishment otherwise most of the clubs in England would need to get fines as well!

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Why has it taken the FA so long to act? It''s not like we''ve only just started persistent standing this season. I reckon it''s the 4th season I''ve stood for most of the games. Sat only once this season at the last home game for a few minutes.

 

No issues with sitting but there''s no consistency. Maybe we are the FAs Morison...

 

Found that post from Blofield Canary interesting. Would have thought celebrating a goal in the away end at Newcastle more risky that at Carrow Road.

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]Oh great!, another fun afternoon in the lower Barclay with the orange jacketed brigade.[/quote]whatever happened to "Jim Bowen" the jobsworth who used to patrol Block D?[/quote][:D][Y] If he is the one i''m thinking of too!

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Without reading any of this exhaustive thread, my view is ''rules are rules'' (in this case safety rules; and after Hillsborough there really shouldn''t be much to argue about there). I say turn a high-powered hose on the disruptive element. Knocking those with a low level of intelligence to the back of the stand with cold water might wake a few up in a certain corner of our stadium, but somehow I doubt it!...

 

Literally flush them out and replace them with the 1500 ''good ''uns'' on the waiting list.

 

Sorted.

 

Next.

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We have had great atmospheres during the seated era so it''s all about the on pitch action not seated or standing. I have stood in equally quiet games in the Barclay.

So who among the standing revolutionaries will take ncfcs standing campaign to the fa? Or lead the fans view in a ajointclub approach? Or do you just want to enjoy a faux match day rebel?

I have asked what the clubs appetite to start a false club campaign for changing the regulations what''s your effort???

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]We have had great atmospheres during the seated era so it''s all about the on pitch action not seated or standing. I have stood in equally quiet games in the Barclay. So who among the standing revolutionaries will take ncfcs standing campaign to the fa? Or lead the fans view in a ajointclub approach? Or do you just want to enjoy a faux match day rebel? I have asked what the clubs appetite to start a false club campaign for changing the regulations what''s your effort???[/quote]

The order came from Europe, but in Europe they are allowed to stand, Germany France Italy Spain, so why do the F A and others want to stop standing here

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I will LOL at all of the people demanding that they continue to stand when the Barclay and Snakepit are both closed by the HSE or the SAG.  Have fun outside the ground whilst we''re all still watching the game.

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Just tow the line for a while, stay in your seat and the whole issue will drop off the radar, any deliberate confrontation today will only make it less likely that a bit of standing will be tolerated in the future. I sit right next to the snake pit in the City stand and really enjoy getting into the atmosphere that''s generated there, it''s a great place to sit. People having a few beers and standing I think probably does get them signing more and I don''t have a problem with that, but the authorities do so that''s the end of it. There will be a couple of local heros that try too look hard and will probably get kicked out today and that will be end of, all the disciples will then sit down and tow the line. What is odd is that recently the fight to stand and associated chanting has taken predidence for a group in the Snake Pit over actually watching the game and what''s going on on the pitch, when that happens you wonder what their motivation really is!

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I''m pro standing, always have been, sitting kills the atmosphere, and Chelsea, Man City fans seem to stand without all the grief. ...........why?

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I can see both sides of the argument here

On one side you have the club who are desperate to follow regulations despite every other club doing so

Then on the other side you have the fans who are arrogantly trying to keep a tradition going of terracing

There''s one way to solve this, a fan swap with Peterborough, all the posh fans who want to sit and watch premier league football come to Norwich and all the standers at Norwich who obviously want to watch lower standard football go and stand at the posh

Good luck lads !!!

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the more you look into it, the more and more the legislation in place looks like complete unsubstantiated nonsense. Legislation that is enforced by the Football Licensing Authority (FLA), working with the local councils responsible for the safety certificate for each football ground within their borough, who in turn pressurise those clubs to enforce the FLA legislation."Persistent standing is not allowed" - can somebody please define persistent standing? Is it for 2 minutes? 20 minutes? 2 hours? If I stand for 20 minutes then sit down for 5 seconds, is that still persistent standing, as I''ve broke up that period of standing?"Standing is acceptable during moments of excitement" - what exactly is a "moment of excitement? A goal? A free kick on the edge of the box? A corner? I was asked to sit down the other week when we had a free kick on the edge of the box, if that''s not a goal scoring opportunity and a "moment of excitement", then what is? The whole game is a "moment of excitement" to me. I wait all week for the game, and the entire 90 minutes are exciting. Who can tell me otherwise and stand up in court and prove it is not?In order for a stand to be closed, or any action of that kind to take place, the authorities must prove in court that the action being taken is in proportion to the risks involved. Something they will never be able to do. Fans have been standing persistently in all seater grounds for years, with constant threats of stand closures. Nobody has been injured and there is not one single piece of evidence to suggest standing it more dangerous than sitting. No way to prove that the proposed closure of the stand is in proportion to the risks. There are no evidence of risks to present! Not one threat of closure has been enforced yet, and never will be. Some clubs seem to ignore the guidelines and allow their fans to stand. Other clubs pick and chose when they want their fans to stand. Every club could ignore the FLA and local council. Their legislation holds no weight or substance. It''s almost make believe.Man City''s safety manager  made a statement last summer, that the club have created a singing section in the lower tier next to the away fans, and he will NOT be asking stewards to enforce them to sit. They''ll be left alone to stand, as there is no safety risk with standing in lower tiers. He is 100% correct. And every game this season, City fans have stood all game, every game with no hassle from stewards. There has been no closure of the stand or threat of that from the FLA. They know they can''t win. If only every club had a stadium manager like the one at Man City.

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[quote user="Blofield Canary"]the more you look into it, the more and more the legislation in place looks like complete unsubstantiated nonsense. Legislation that is enforced by the Football Licensing Authority (FLA), working with the local councils responsible for the safety certificate for each football ground within their borough, who in turn pressurise those clubs to enforce the FLA legislation."Persistent standing is not allowed" - can somebody please define persistent standing? Is it for 2 minutes? 20 minutes? 2 hours? If I stand for 20 minutes then sit down for 5 seconds, is that still persistent standing, as I''ve broke up that period of standing?"Standing is acceptable during moments of excitement" - what exactly is a "moment of excitement? A goal? A free kick on the edge of the box? A corner? I was asked to sit down the other week when we had a free kick on the edge of the box, if that''s not a goal scoring opportunity and a "moment of excitement", then what is? The whole game is a "moment of excitement" to me. I wait all week for the game, and the entire 90 minutes are exciting. Who can tell me otherwise and stand up in court and prove it is not?In order for a stand to be closed, or any action of that kind to take place, the authorities must prove in court that the action being taken is in proportion to the risks involved. Something they will never be able to do. Fans have been standing persistently in all seater grounds for years, with constant threats of stand closures. Nobody has been injured and there is not one single piece of evidence to suggest standing it more dangerous than sitting. No way to prove that the proposed closure of the stand is in proportion to the risks. There are no evidence of risks to present! Not one threat of closure has been enforced yet, and never will be. Some clubs seem to ignore the guidelines and allow their fans to stand. Other clubs pick and chose when they want their fans to stand. Every club could ignore the FLA and local council. Their legislation holds no weight or substance. It''s almost make believe.Man City''s safety manager  made a statement last summer, that the club have created a singing section in the lower tier next to the away fans, and he will NOT be asking stewards to enforce them to sit. They''ll be left alone to stand, as there is no safety risk with standing in lower tiers. He is 100% correct. And every game this season, City fans have stood all game, every game with no hassle from stewards. There has been no closure of the stand or threat of that from the FLA. They know they can''t win. If only every club had a stadium manager like the one at Man City.[/quote]
Do you seriously think NCFC would want to get into a position of having to defend its actions and try to mitigate an action in court brought against it by enforcement authorities. 
There may well be room for discussions a la Man City to try and achieve a compromise but in the first instance the club will have to demonstrate that it is able to comply with the requirements as they now exist.

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Firstly let me say I haven''t read all this thread but obviously know that the issue of standing attracts very diverse opinions.  As I am one of the older contributors on here (not as old as Tilly or Ricardo of course [:D]) I feel it may be interesting to a few of our younger viewers to have my ''historical'' perspective.  My Uncle started taking me to Carrow Road when I was 9 in 1964.  Although we stood in the South Stand, it was very obvious that the Barclay was the place to be.  For the two previous years I had attended and enjoyed watching speedway and stock car racing at the Firs Stadium and soon realised that the atmosphere that could be generated at a football ground (particularly by a noisy standing area behind the goal) bore no comparison to any other sport at the time.  I was, therefore, hooked to football but also to the atmosphere.  I particularly remember some large crowds at Cup games early on (Blackburn & Sheffield Wednesday come to mind) where the noise was incredible.  So I grew up in an era when the atmosphere at a game was as important (if not more important given some of the dire stuff we had to endure in the mid-late 60''s) as what was happening on the pitch.  For this reason, I still (to this day) have a season ticket towards the rear of the middle of the lower Barclay (almost equivalent to the view I had of the ground when I was a kid) because I enjoy the singing and atmosphere that can be generated.Moving on, we obviously had (football in general that is) some dreadful dark times off the pitch which led to the situation we have today.  Not long after all seaters were first introduced we were having to put with some dire times on the pitch (1995-2001 in particular).  So naturally the level of standing at games was limited to those times during a dreadful 0-0 draw with Bury or Stockport when we actually got within sight of the penalty area!  However, during the last 10 years or so (from the play-off season onwards) we have had a fair degree of excitement one way or another so many of the youngsters who have started coming in that time have got used to standing for long periods of the games in the Barclay and the Snakepit in particular).  I for one can only remember sitting in my seat for the briefest of moments during our current spell in the Prem (probably not amounting to any more than one hour over the last two seasons).  The stewards near us are relaxed about this, all the season ticket holders around us know what the situation is (and most of them have their season tickets in that area because they want to be there for that very reason).  I would also add that the majority of those with season tickets near me are of a similar age so I''m not surrounded by youngsters - most near me are in the 40+ age group.  This does not cause any problems apart from at Cup games where a high number of casuals turn up and are not used to the situation.  However, this has never led to any friction with those casuals or with the stewards.I agree that the best way forward is to campaign for safer standing areas to be created giving the fans back the choice they once had but the way the issue has been managed in our part of the lower Barclay has been conflict free and a credit to the stewards who we all recognise and respect.  If this is about to change then this will be a sad day.  During the period of the repercussions of Hillsborough and the Taylor Report I was the Safety Officer for the East Anglian Branch of the Football Supporters Association and we campaigned for safe standing areas then but it obviously fell upon the deaf ears of the Thatcher Government.  European teams have proven that this can be achieved but the money this would cost to implement in the Premier League is probably one of the main reasons why teams would be loathe to adopt this approach.  There is logistically no reason why this can''t be done but when did the fans ever really have a say in events???

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Do you seriously think NCFC would want to get into a position of having to defend its actions and try to mitigate an action in court brought against it by enforcement authorities.
There may well be room for discussions a la Man City to try and achieve a compromise but in the first instance the club will have to demonstrate that it is able to comply with the requirements as they now exist
 
You are missing the point - no authority has ever had the courage or the evidence to take any closure action. Do you honestly believe an underfunded local authority would risk taking potentially expensive action against a football club? Good use of tax payers money? I don''t think so.

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Sing stand up if you hate the scum all game sorted. They can''t throw everyone out.It''s 2013 and with proper safe standing areas as in germany it would be fine. we have standing at music festivals with 100''000 + people that are intoxicated one way or another safely enjoying themselves why can''t we have that at football stadiums. This is going to be blown out of proportion and stewards with be on it big time today. But I will still stand at the moments when we would allways ie attacking towards us, corners, goals etc. nobody will get thrown out for that.

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[quote user="Blofield Canary"]
Do you seriously think NCFC would want to get into a position of having to defend its actions and try to mitigate an action in court brought against it by enforcement authorities.
There may well be room for discussions a la Man City to try and achieve a compromise but in the first instance the club will have to demonstrate that it is able to comply with the requirements as they now exist
 
You are missing the point - no authority has ever had the courage or the evidence to take any closure action. Do you honestly believe an underfunded local authority would risk taking potentially expensive action against a football club? Good use of tax payers money? I don''t think so.
[/quote]
I understand what your saying Blofield and you make a fair point, Local Authorities are scarred stiff of getting involved in enforcing the legislation they are responsible for against anyone that is big enough and rich enough to fund a defence. NCFC want however to keep a good relationship with local agencies as neither party would want the adverse publicity associated with a public spat, so we will do as we are told. The LA would have kept a pretty low key approach to enforcement, but once they start getting complaints, as I believe they did after the Luton game, then they have no option to try and flex a bit of muscle. In reality what''s  happening at the moment will be a strategy agreed by the club and the council working together.

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[quote user="flying high up in the sky"]Sing stand up if you hate the scum all game sorted. They can''t throw everyone out.It''s 2013 and with proper safe standing areas as in germany it would be fine. we have standing at music festivals with 100''000 + people that are intoxicated one way or another safely enjoying themselves why can''t we have that at football stadiums. This is going to be blown out of proportion and stewards with be on it big time today. But I will still stand at the moments when we would allways ie attacking towards us, corners, goals etc. nobody will get thrown out for that.[/quote]The salient point here is though, some people don''t want to stand the whole game.

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[quote user="DanielHammond"]Stand if you want to stand, sit if you want to sit. It''s all a part of the game. I stand for 90 mins at the away games I go to which is most yet at the home games I sit for 90. There is no risk and the club won''t get any punishment otherwise most of the clubs in England would need to get fines as well![/quote]

 

This is the reasoning that I don''t understand Daniel. We had a thread about this last season and nobody could explain to me why it is that folk would behave differently in away games from the way they behave at home games.  I finally decided it must be the herd mentality, or some might say sheep, where people do whatever folk around them are doing to fit in. Or is there something I missed?

 

 

 

 

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