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I am a Banana

Norwich Academy Team that have left.

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[S]

 

And ding ding round 10.  

 

oddly addictive though - like flicking through the tv channels and seeing something awful but not enough to stay with it just to see if it really is still going on...

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Perhaps the way forward is to indoctrinate half of the kids in Norfolk into being Catholic from birth, half of the kids in Norfolk into being Protestant from birth, teach them to hate each other, and then use football as a means of keeping kids away from violence and postcode wars.

Seems to work for Liverpool and Glasgow, but it might mean that we would need a second club and rename the current one, Norwich Celtics and Norwich Rangers.

I''d probably support the Norwich Celtics.

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"Can we just go back to round 8 for confirmation as to why Martin Peters is on the list"

I meant Peter Mendham, hence why I said I hadn''t gone past the early eighties.

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You haven''t addressed my original point yet so climb down off your high burger buddy!

 

If you''re a protestant I think your idea is already working. And flippant of not it makes more sense than your Ricky Martin grudge.

 

 

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"You haven''t addressed my original point yet so climb down off your high burger buddy!"

Which part of it remains unaddressed? Tell me and I''ll do my best to satisfy the question.

"If you''re a protestant I think your idea is already working"

I''m an atheist but Celtic are a club close to my heart.

"And flippant of not it makes more sense than your Ricky Martin grudge"

In any job you are expected to meet objectives. He has had 9 years as head of the academy and in that 9 years we haven''t produced a single Championship quality player. Sammy Morgan had 14 years and the list of quality players to come through the youth team during that period is hugely impressive and probably saved our club from complete financial meltdown. It isn''t a "grudge", it is an observation that our academy has been unsuccessful

I suppose that you will say that Sammy Morgan had pots of money now? Likely story between 1990 and 2004 right? For some of it they were training on awful pitches at Trowse!

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Well surprise surprise I''m not saying any of that. The point which you continually will not address is the one that Norfolk traditionally doesn''t produce it''s fair share of top footballers. Forget Ricky Martin and Sammy Morgan. They are only of interest in their own eras.

 

 

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]"Can we just go back to round 8 for confirmation as to why Martin Peters is on the list" I meant Peter Mendham, hence why I said I hadn''t gone past the early eighties.[/quote]

 

So you had a stab at it but got it wrong. He was probably the reason the budget was slashed and we had to close down Bristol.....

 

 

 

 

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I''ll just point out that I know of some of the ex youth players and they mainly have nothing but praise for the academy and it''s coaches, and it''s also worth pointing out that the head coaches has changed quite a bit over the last few years until Ricky Martin was appointed.

Right top four divisions, players that came from our academy system and had careers since say when? 2000? That is a hard task. But I shall do what I can.

2000''s onwards:

GK: Green (QPR, ok first start was 1999 but not regular until after that), Aaron Lee-Barrett (Ipswich), J. Lewis (Cardiff), D. Rudd (on loan to Preston), J. Steer (with us),

Def: R. Brindley (Chesterfield), A. Drury (Leeds, I believe he played at youth level for Norwich), J. Shackell (Burnley), M. Spillane (Southend), G. Francomb (loan to AFC Wimbledon),

Mdf: T. Adeyemi (loan to Brentford), K. Smith (with us),

Str: Ryan Jarvis (Torquay), P. Hayes (Brentford), I. Henderson (just been released by Colchester), C. Martin (on loan to Derby apparently),

1990''s onwards (I have included players who are not now but played predominantly in the four tiers):

GK: A.Marshall (Villa), M.Tyler (Peterborough 1994-2009 now Luton),

Def: D. Mills (retired, played predominantly in the top two tiers), Che Wilson (play at a much lower level now at 34), Rob Ullathorne (retired), D. Kenton (retired), D. Sutch (retired),

Mid: Darren Eadie (retired early due to injury), Keith O''Neill (played for Middlesborough and Coventry before retiring due to injuries), C. Llewelyn (retired), A. Forbes (retired), S. Carey (retired), D. Russell (late ''90''s well into the 2000''s as we all know), A.Johnson (retired),

Str: C. Ballamy (Cardiff), A. Akinbiyi (without club - retired?), Chris Sutton (retired), A. Coote (non-league), J. Cureton (Exeter),

Players currently in conference:

D. Crowe (Newport County), Rossi Jarvis (Cambridge Utd), S. Habergham (Tamworth), D. Sinclair (Sutton Utd), L. Daley (Braintree),

Others with tentative links who represented Norwich: Simon Davies (Fulham, played schoolboy level for Norwich), Bobby Zamora (QPR, with us for a season or two until he was 15),

And that is off the top of my head! There are bound to be players I have missed out, some likely to be obvious, others not. It''s arguable which period was less productive of successful especially if you consider a lot of the young players that were successful in the ''90''s were recruited using when we could recruit from further afield.

It is impressive how many young goalkeepers we seem to have produced since Andy Marshall really. I hope it keeps going.

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singupcarrowroad said: "In any job you are expected to meet objectives. He has had 9 years as head of the academy and in that 9 years we haven''t produced a single Championship quality player."

Sure. Joe Lewis might have something to say about that, not to mention K.Smith or Chris Martin - who admittedly may be a bit less experienced at that level.

singupcarrowroad said: "Sammy Morgan had 14 years and the list of quality players to come through the youth team during that period is hugely impressive and probably saved our club from complete financial meltdown. It isn''t a "grudge", it is an observation that our academy has been unsuccessful."

But this is where you start to make the error. Morgan was head of the academy during a time predominantly where the new regulations were not in existence.

Taking that into consideration if you have a look at the players I posted up as successful from the ''90''s you''ll see how many would not have been eligible for our academy to have on the books.

Most notably: D. Kenton, C. Bellamy, D. Eadie, K. O''neill, Andy Marshall, Andy Johnson and right on the cusp Robert Green.

There then appears to have been a gap of a few years before we had the likes of Shackell break through. This actually covers the latter years of Morgan''s reign.

More recently you could argue we have been getting back to previous successes with players matching careers of the likes of Adrian Forbes and Llewelyn in the lower tiers with a clutch of exceptions in the likes of Chris Martin, Joe Lewis and a few others.

It is even more relevant when you consider how few have gone on to better their careers, out of the lot Chris Sutton, Bellamy, Green are the stand-outs.

You could argue that out of 20+ years of our youth system why have only three stand out players have come through the system and into the team and forge themselves a career at the top level. And that only includes one genuine ''local'' boy in Sutton, whose father also had a football career.

So as of yet, I simply can''t see where your evidence is coming from, if you have any.

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And the problems with Chris Sutton, although genuinely a local boy who grew up in Norfolk, for the sake of any study without preconceptions he was not Norfolk born.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

And the problems with Chris Sutton, although genuinely a local boy who grew up in Norfolk, for the sake of any study without preconceptions he was not Norfolk born.

 

 

[/quote]

That too is very true. But he is the closest out of that bunch to being ''local''.

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That list Chicken actually makes me think again about our academy products of recent years. Ok there aren''t many big names on there. Also, I thought Drury had only been at Pboro before he joined us, but that might be wrong.

Considering our up and down between the top three divisions, poor finances for many years and seemingly not very good running at the top end of the club (Mr.Doncaster).

We do seem to be very good at churning out GKs.

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@Ginger: I''m sure that when he arrived with us he said otherwise and then I bought the testimonial program and I am sure it says in that about having played for the Norwich youth set up prior to Peterborough.

However at times like these ''Flown from the Nest'' is your friend: "Adam Drury was at Norwich City with Kit Carson before arriving at Peterborough United as a 15 year-old, and his London Road teammates were quick to take the mickey out of the young left back’s bandy legs so they aptly named him after one of Hollywood’s most celebrated cowboys - John Wayne."

I have to agree with you too, I thought we had had a barren patch but the reality is we have actually produced a lot more ''local talent'' recently than it would appear we did in the past.

Joe Lewis is from Broome.

Chris Martin is local.

Korey Smith isn''t so local being from Hatfield but it is within our catchment I should imagine. (the 90 minute thing baffles me a bit, its a bit like the holy grail - 90 minutes, is that on a train service not effected by leaves on the line?).

It''s also pretty regular as it seems that at least one from each year at least looks able to make it at some level of football.

I have to say I really do think population density has a lot to do with things. For example, when I lived in London every patch of green (public parks, gardens etc) in the summer becomes a hive of activity, people engaging in all sorts of sports from just jogging or a bit of frisbee to footy etc.

When I''d just moved to West London, I''d pop down to Chiswick green from my rented flat, at the weekend and be guaranteed a kick about with a complete bunch of strangers. Obviously after a while you got to know one or two people, but if you turned up with a ball you''d get a knock about. Some of the chaps I played with could only speak in broken english but we could all speak football.

You just don''t get that in some of the smaller villages. These days many of them share schools as there are not enough kids to justify having two schools open for them. Pick up games like that are just as important as coaching sessions. First and foremost it is important that the youngster actually likes football and wants to play it.

Growing up in Norwich I was always kicking a football around somewhere, but I never got good coaching until I was sent on some of the summer footie camps that Peter Mendham used to run.

The schools I went to either didn''t have a footie team or had preferred players which effectively excluded everyone else. Despite that I turned up to some sessions and the coach was surprised to see I was half decent.

But if I am honest that is where the problems lie. Not with the academy but at grass roots level. As a country our grass roots level for sports sucks. It is no where near inclusive enough.

People are trying to spot potential ''great'' sports people when they are very young, and it just doesn''t work like that. How many great youngsters have turned out to be great flops? How many written off youngsters have gone on to better their critics?

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"Sure. Joe Lewis might have something to say about that, not to mention K.Smith or Chris Martin - who admittedly may be a bit less experienced at that level"

The same Joe Lewis who''s first season in the Championship resulted in a relegation and a horrendous goals against total, and who''s second Championship season saw him spend most of the season on the bench at Peterborough while a keeper signed from Exeter was first choice? That first team keeper was deemed not good enough and now plays for Crawley. So if by Championship standard you mean not better than the Crawley keeper, and benchwarmer for the distinctly average David Marshall, then sure. Korey has a chance of becoming Championship standard, the first since Shackell, Chris Martin has League One written all over him.

"But this is where you start to make the error. Morgan was head of the academy during a time predominantly where the new regulations were not in existence"

That''s not my error, that''s supporting my argument fully, which is that Morgan brought through several quality local players during his 14 years, Martin has not. It also supports my original argument which is that we shouldn''t have closed Bristol. We started our Hatfield arrangement in 2004, the same year that we employed Martin. How much was he involved in establishing that arrangement? And if he was involved in overseeing that, then why shouldn''t be be held accountable for the failure of Hatfield to become as fruitful as Bristol? The bit that you are missing here is that we are allowed a satellite, do operate a satellite, and both Morgan and Martin have had the benefit of one.

"Taking that into consideration if you have a look at the players I posted up as successful from the ''90''s you''ll see how many would not have been eligible for our academy to have on the books"

You will also see how many came from the Bristol area, and how several of the high quality players were local.

"Most notably: D. Kenton, C. Bellamy, D. Eadie, K. O''neill, Andy Marshall, Andy Johnson and right on the cusp Robert Green"

Eadie, Bellamy, and Johnson would have been well within 90 minutes of our Bristol satellite. Where are the Eadie''s, Bellamy''s, and Johnson''s from Hatfield? I think you need to check again with Andy Marshall, who was from Suffolk and so easily within our current 90 minute catchment area. I think that you need to reconsider Keith O''Neill too, who we signed aged 17 from Home Farm. There is nothing in the current rules preventing us from signing 16 or 17 year old players from Ireland, and in fact Ipswich do this now. Likewise Darren Kenton, we signed him at 16, nothing stopping us from signing a 16 year old from London now. I think you need to understand this rule a bit better. We can sign a 16 year old from anywhere in the country, move them to Norwich, and stick them in digs. The 90 minute rule has never stopped us from doing that.

"More recently you could argue we have been getting back to previous successes with players matching careers of the likes of Adrian Forbes and Llewelyn in the lower tiers with a clutch of exceptions in the likes of Chris Martin, Joe Lewis and a few others"

Both Llewellyn and Forbes played well over 100 league games each for us in the Championship. So far the only player since Jason Shackell to manage that many Championship games for any/all teams is Chris Martin, who I don''t think we could be too confident would be a Welsh International if he was Welsh, Chris Llewellyn was, and Llewellyn rejected numerous moves back to the Championship so that he could stay in Wales with Wrexham. Forbes "found his level", but comparing success stories is surely preferable to comparing the non-success stories.

"It is even more relevant when you consider how few have gone on to better their careers, out of the lot Chris Sutton, Bellamy, Green are the stand-outs"

Once upon a time we had a very short little winger, quick as a flash he was. Fox was his name, Ruel Fox. One of the best players of his generation not to play for England. Spurs paid £4.25m for little Fox, who got his place taken in the Newcastle team by some girly looking French bloke named Ginola.

Ended up winning a League Cup medal he did.

Keith O''Neill and Darren Eadie would feel very hard done by not to be included in your little list my dear, what with them both being well and truly ravaged with injury. I seem to remember Danny Mills being one of England''s stand out performers in the 2002 World Cup, grabbed a League Cup winners medal himself in 2004 sweetcheeks.

Ade Akinbiyi, as useless as he was here, went for transfer fees totaling £14m in his career. Andy Johnson and Chris Llewellyn were Welsh Internationals, Rob Ullathorne played Premier League football for Leicester and reached a cup final.

That''s what we have from the nineties. From the noughties the best that anyone can muster is that Robert Green mustered a few England caps, became world famous for a massive howler, has played more seasons in the second tier than he has the first tier, and is probably the best paid reserve keeper in the world. Other than that you have pulled together a list of players who have hardly kicked a ball for us and gone on play for five hundred quid a week in League Two. Whoopdy do.

"You could argue that out of 20+ years of our youth system why have only three stand out players have come through the system and into the team and forge themselves a career at the top level"

I could, and have, argued completely against that.

"And that only includes one genuine ''local'' boy in Sutton, whose father also had a football career"

No, it also includes a Norwich born player who played in the 2002 World Cup, and the best right winger that we''ve had in my lifetime.

"So as of yet, I simply can''t see where your evidence is coming from, if you have any"

Well since my argument is that the youth team was much more productive in the 90''s than it was the 00''s and the 10''s so far, then I think you have done a mighty fine job of producing that evidence yourself.

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Chicken,

When you say this:

"Korey Smith isn''t so local being from Hatfield but it is within our catchment I should imagine. (the 90 minute thing baffles me a bit, its a bit like the holy grail - 90 minutes, is that on a train service not effected by leaves on the line?)"

You show that you haven''t read this thread.

Hatfield is not within 90 minutes of Norwich, but we have a satellite center of excellence at Hatfield, it is also where we got George Francomb from.

Most of the players that you mention as not being from within our 90 minute area under Morgan came from within the area of our satellite centre of excellence at Bristol.

The only difference is that Martin has Hatfield, and Morgan had Bristol.

Eadie, Bellamy, Llewellyn, Cureton, Shore, Andy Johnson, all those came from our Bristol satellite.

In the 9 years since we opened Hatfield and appointed Martin, we only really have Korey Smith and George Francomb to show for it.

Now tell me again, is it the 90 minute rule that is hindering us? Or is it the closure of Bristol and the complete failure to find and develop any talented local kids?

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Sorry but you were banging on about ''local'' talent at one point and my counter to that was we have very rarely had a lot of ''local'' talent.

I also said that that list was off the top of my head and that I doubtlessly had missed off players including some more obvious.

D.Mills did well for himself that is for sure, whether he was ever really that good is another matter altogether. Certainly wasn''t what you would call ''cultured'' or a ''technical'' player. Perhaps a bit like a slightly better Tierney?

I didn''t mention Fox because you distinctly said ''90''s and considering Fox''s first appearance was 1986 that would put him outside of that and Morgan''s running of the academy.

You say nothing has come out of the Hatfield arrangement yet mention Shackell who is from Stevenage. Now there may not be a link between the two but there is only 11 miles between the two. Korey Smith is from - tah dah - Hatfield.

And whilst you have an opinion on Chris Martin Derby County think enough of him to give him a go in the Championship.

But ok lets throw out Lewis, C.Martin and K.Smith and ignore Shackell too - but there is still one other ex academy player that has recently been playing on a regular basis in the championship - A. Lee-Barrett. You''ll probably find another reason to dismiss him too.

The truth is some people are impossible to please and ever since you have reared your head on this board you have been little else but negative.

In fact in a way you are starting to sound like Wiz, moving the goalposts every five minutes.

First off you claimed that Banana''s challenge couldn''t be done - then did it, albeit missing out some players that have been listed since and more likely candidates that actually fore fill the criteria.

I''d like to point out this too: (singingalotoftosh wrote) "The reality is that our academy produces many more players for local non-league teams than it does for professional teams in the league system."

That statement right there applies to FOOTBALL. If you took the academy system as a whole in this country - it produces more non-league or otherwise players than it does those that make it in the top four leagues. How many are there in each year at the academy? Multiply that by the number of clubs there are. A rather throw away statement if I may say so, and one that displays a naivety about football.

Then you went on to go on about ''local'' products, or at least chime in with others that did, before banging on about the ones that were recruited through our then satellite youth centre.

That went because unless you have been missing for something like the best part of 20 years, we were skint and £20million in the poopoo, to the point of rumours that the administrators were about to roll in . . . . .

By the way, just to correct you on a couple of things.

Darren Bent was born in Tooting and then moved to Huntingdon. The first of which is well outside of our catchment area, the second is borderline, certainly not as clear as you make it. It''s 80 odd miles give or take, at 60mph the entire journey it would take 1hr and 20 minutes. Considering there isn''t one straight road I think it is fair to say it is probable that it isn''t within catchment.

Interestingly it almost is a straight run from Huntingdon to Ipswich and is ten miles fewer. Makes it more likely to be inside than out.

I like how you dismiss Green, very classy. I also like how you say if Chris Martin was Welsh he still wouldn''t get into the side when Ched Evans regularly featured in Wales squads despite being predominantly league one or lower reaches of the Championship.

I don''t disagree with some of what your saying but I think you are going to far and being far to aggressive over it. It makes it sound like you are an ex academy player with a chip on your shoulder or the parent of one and is rather bitter.

The reality is that since relegation in the ''90''s we have struggled for money due to debts, we closed down projects we couldn''t afford to run. Although we did invest in new academy facilities at Colney which we had to really.

The addition of the sky money for the big clubs meant that they had more money to invest into better and more expansive youth systems as well as being more able to invest in players themselves. Lets not forget some of the premiership clubs have paid money for these kids, and not small amounts either at times.

We simply didn''t have the dosh to do all of the things you are suggesting. That is the reality. Four years ago we were nigh on broke. I am sure we would have loved to have offered jobs to youth players parents in an effort to get them here, at a time when we were cutting staff. Sure lets get rid of another loyal employee to make way for some geeza who could be a bit of a nob so we get his son in the academy.

Established clubs like Arsenal could probably pay someone £20k a year to lick stamps for envelopes and house them rent free. We were hard pushed to buy more than a single player.

Lets just get a little bit real. Perhaps now we are in the prem, and debt free, we can dream of returning to the days our academy brought us more success.

And that is the final point I would like to make. You bang on about the academy not being as productive - in many ways it is being far more productive in that it is searching harder in a more confined space, than it had done before. It is still producing as many players if not more, again from a smaller area.

What you are talking about is the success of those players. And that is a tough one, is it the coaching that has failed them? Or is it that we have just failed to unearth players with the natural ability that the likes of Bellamy and Sutton had? Or, in the case of Chris Martin, does it come down to the player themselves and their character/attitude?

And that is where unless you are down at the academy watching their sessions regularly you will struggle to find proof.

Football is a lot more cut-throat for the youngsters than it ever used to be. Much more pressured - I don''t think that is a good thing either. But much has changed since the days of Sutton. For starters I''m not sure a modern day footballer could be an alcoholic of the levels quite a few of the Man Utd and Arsenal players were in the ''90''s not to mention others.

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"D.Mills did well for himself that is for sure, whether he was ever really that good is another matter altogether. Certainly wasn''t what you would call ''cultured'' or a ''technical'' player. Perhaps a bit like a slightly better Tierney?"

Well yeah, he was good. He played for England and had a fantastic World Cup in 2002.

"Certainly wasn''t what you would call ''cultured'' or a ''technical'' player"

A week ago you didn''t even know what ''cultured'' meant, I had to explain it to you.

"I didn''t mention Fox because you distinctly said ''90''s"

No, I said Eighties and Nineties, you said Nineties.

"You say nothing has come out of the Hatfield arrangement yet mention Shackell who is from Stevenage"

And signed 2 years before we linked with Hatfield.

"Korey Smith is from - tah dah - Hatfield"

No shit, I just said this, what are you a parrot?

"And whilst you have an opinion on Chris Martin Derby County think enough of him to give him a go in the Championship"

Hope it works out for him.

"But ok lets throw out Lewis, C.Martin and K.Smith and ignore Shackell too - but there is still one other ex academy player that has recently been playing on a regular basis in the championship - A. Lee-Barrett. You''ll probably find another reason to dismiss him too"

Jason Shackell is a Morgan-era player, who I''ve used myself as the last example of a good Championship player, are you even reading my posts? Korey Smith has played a handful of Championship games, Chris Martin I wish him well but jury is still well and truly out, Aaran-Lee Barrett is a Morgan-era player too and is from within our catchment area. Have you forgotten the argument here? I''m saying that we have talent in this area, you have just quoted two local players. As for "playing regularly", he has played 38 league games in four seasons, and not once this season.

"The truth is some people are impossible to please and ever since you have reared your head on this board you have been little else but negative"

Funny that. My 1-0 score prediction for the Fulham game, my 1-1 score prediction for the Everton game, my prediction that Holt will score several more goals this season, my belief that Hughton will play 4-4-2, my suggestion that we send shirts to Sierre Leone. All sounds really negative that. I''m not allowed to point out that we have had a decade of poor performance for the following reasons:

1. It upsets Nigel because he fundraises for Nigel.

2. A few other posters then back Nigel because they know and like him.

But let''s be realistic here, I''m telling the truth.

"First off you claimed that Banana''s challenge couldn''t be done - then did it, albeit missing out some players that have been listed since and more likely candidates that actually fore fill the criteria"

Actually I think you will find that I completed Banana''s challenge by ignoring the rules, and if the rules were stuck to it could not have been completed. I listed several Blue Square Prem players, and players who hadn''t played for us. If I''d not have done that the eleven wouldn''t have been possible. Get your facts right.

"In fact in a way you are starting to sound like Wiz, moving the goalposts every five minutes"

Funny how I''m the one perceived to have done that and not Nigel.

"I like how you dismiss Green, very classy"

I was sitting in the Riverend for his very last game when he stuck his fingers up at the Norwich fans. Very classy.

"I also like how you say if Chris Martin was Welsh he still wouldn''t get into the side when Ched Evans regularly featured in Wales squads despite being predominantly league one or lower reaches of the Championship"

Ched Evans scored 35 in 42 last season, he is simply better than Chris Martin.

"It makes it sound like you are an ex academy player with a chip on your shoulder or the parent of one and is rather bitter"

No, crap at football and no kids.

"The reality is that since relegation in the ''90''s we have struggled for money due to debts, we closed down projects we couldn''t afford to run. Although we did invest in new academy facilities at Colney which we had to really"

Maybe we did need to close Bristol. If we did, perhaps we should consider closing Hatfield and reopening Bristol.

"We simply didn''t have the dosh to do all of the things you are suggesting. That is the reality. Four years ago we were nigh on broke"

Could not having an Eadie or a Bellamy to sell not have something to do with that? Those two player sales were deemed essential financially at the time.

"Lets just get a little bit real. Perhaps now we are in the prem, and debt free, we can dream of returning to the days our academy brought us more success"

And I hope it happens.

"It is still producing as many players if not more, again from a smaller area."

I just don''t understand what you are saying here. We have gone a decade without producing a good player, quantity of players VS quality of players. Look it is great that Ryan Jarvis got to have a career in football, but we have sold Joe Lewis for £300k and I think we got £50k for Stephens to Hibs. How much have we spent on it? You are saying that we couldn''t afford to have a strong academy, I''m saying that over the past decade we have no doubt LOST MONEY on youth development, whereas if you add together Bellamy+Eadie+O''Neill+Green, I suspect it was previously a different story.

"is it the coaching that has failed them? Or is it that we have just failed to unearth players with the natural ability that the likes of Bellamy and Sutton had?"

Either of those scenarios would be a failure though, wouldn''t it? I agreed with something that you said earlier in the thread, Worthington didn''t loan out the likes of Jarvis and Henderson at 18/19/20, and perhaps they would have become better players if he had.

"Or, in the case of Chris Martin, does it come down to the player themselves and their character/attitude?"

I''ve always been curious about Martin''s attitude, I have no idea whether it is a stinky one or whether he has been misunderstood, but no managers since Roeder have had a bad word to say about him publicly. DiCanio did though, so it is an interesting one.

"And that is where unless you are down at the academy watching their sessions regularly you will struggle to find proof"

I just hope that somewhere in the current bunch of U18 players we have a real gem. Loza is one of the best products. You will note the following:

1. not from our catchment area

2. signed at 16

In ten years it isn''t just the failure to get something out of our under 16 system, but the failure to sign 16 year olds from outside our catchment area who develop well enough to stay on. Like I''ve said numerous times, many other clubs sign 16 year olds from all over the country. In ten years we haven''t signed one good enough to come through and play first team football. Owen Garvan was signed at 16 by Ipswich. The 90 minute rule may well be excused by a genuine lack of local talent, but somebody has to explain why the 16 year olds that we sign never make the great. I sincerely hope that the Murphy''s or Loza buck the trend.

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So back to my point about population demographics and the Liverpool/East Anglia comparison...?

Are you really pish at football? I had visions of you being a midfield general. Strong in the tackle, committed and loads of energy.

The kind of guy they used to play behind me, the water carrier for my elegance and artistry. You see, I was more of a French player, skilful but didn''t have that work ethic.

Mike Sutton told me that. At the same time he had John running round a three school complex dragging a tyre tied round his waist. Making him bigger and stronger, the very thing Che is so against. I have to say that John was about 11 at the time and was a phenomenal talent. But Mike had fallen out of favour at NCFC and that was fundamental in what happened with John. Nice lad, John and made a living from the game.

No reflection on NCFC though.

Anyway, back to why Liverpool creates better players than East Anglia. Why do you reckon it is singstar?

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Sing - you have changed the goalposts.

You said we should be able to get enough talent out of the population at hand, but then state we shouldn''t have shut the Bristol centre or that the Hatfield link is doing us no good.

The problem I have is that you can''t really have it both ways. Either we have enough resources in terms of young people in Norfolk to work with or we don''t.

Not all clubs have links like the Bristol or Hatfield one, because they don''t need them.

Interestingly there are players from the ''90''s that were failed to be picked up by our youth system then too. Matthew Upson for example.

And as for educating me as to what ''cultured'' means - when?

As for Nigel - I''ve never met him. In fact there is only one poster on here that I think I can say I have met and we don''t always agree on things and if we don''t so what?

I just don''t like the way that because we are not beating everyone at the moment people are picking out random things to criticise the club for - it just isn''t acceptable.

Also - you have read my ''attitude'' as being ''bad attitude'', I am sure I don''t have to educate you in the meaning of the word but it is not what I meant. You might be right in that some players don''t have the work ethic or a bad attitude but actually there is a much finer line. You need to be mentally robust, a bit like seasoned marathon runners, you need to know which pain is good and to push yourself through.

And by not finding the talent, I meant is the talent there as much as anything else. We could have millions of youngsters (actually we have roughly 130k aged between 0-14 in Norfolk - or around 15% of the population which is bellow national average) but if there isn''t the talent there it''s not going to be magicked up.

As it stands though, having grown up mainly through the late ''80''s and early ''90''s I would say coaching has improved, there weren''t many teams I could join as a youngster and the coaching at school in terms of PE was pretty non-existent. Like I say if it wasn''t for being sent on the footy camps run by the likes of Peter Mendham I probably would never have received any formal training.

These days football for youngsters is far more accessible. And like I said, in terms of local young players we are being far more productive - it''s just the success of those youngsters is not as great.

And as for the team:

GK: Green,

DF: Drury, Spillane, Shackell, Francombe.

MF: D. Russell, I. Henderson, Lansbury, C.Martin.

ST: Bellamy, Ryan Jarvis.

Subs: P.Hayes, Lewis, Lee-Barrett, Cureton, A. Marshall, Adeyemi.

So it is in fact possible. All have played for our first team, all have played at some point for our youth system. Paul Hayes is contentious I agree as he didn''t play a league game for us, but the stipulation was a ''first team game'' and he did play and indeed score against Arsenal in a pre-season friendly before moving on. Oh and yes, you could argue that the players on loan still belong to us but again the stipulation was they don''t currently ''play'' for us. Which is also why K. Smith isn''t down as part of that team.

As for era, it wasn''t you that suggested the dates, Nutty asked if we were comparing now to the late ''80''s / early ''90''s. You then started going on about Sammy Morgan who you say was in charge of the acadamy for 14 years prior to R.Martin''s 9 years. Well by my maths, and your logic, Ruel Fox has to be omitted as a Morgan player because he wasn''t. And actually even Mills probably would have been part of the youth system, being 18 in 1995 when he made his first appearance for us - it would make him 13 in 1990 when Morgan became head of the academy.

Like I said, in some ways I don''t disagree but you don''t half have to be such a clott about it. And again, making up (which is what you have done) averages to suit your argument is not fact finding nor accurate.

Telling people you ''taught'' them stuff which is spurious is also aggressive by nature and just plain nasty. I have thicker skin than that thankfully as I have been on many a muddy a walk in our fair county and had to scrape worse of my boot.

What I would say to you is that in the ''90''s we clearly fed off the success off the earlier years when we were premiership and had money to invest in projects further afield. In recent years even our professional squad scouting network has been damaged but cost limitations - a number of managers and people at the club has said as such.

We then got by on drips and drabs, the occasional ''success story'' by which I mean Green who has had a much more sustained run as part of the England set up rather than Mills who played in 2002 only due to G.Neville being injured.

However, recently there has been somewhat of a revival which appears to also be increasing the quality of the players coming out. A few years ago you had the likes of the Jarvis brothers and their year.

In between that you would have looked down the leagues and found precious few ex Norwich academy players playing.

There is quite a splattering now, and those going out on loan tend to be getting decent reviews. Adeyemi for example, may not make it as a premiership footballer but it would appear that he has acquitted himself well where he has played, as with Smith. Even C.Martin appears to do something right.

My hope is that the academy goes from strength to strength and continues to improve from year to year. That puts us in a better position to be creating the next generation of home grown players of the level needed to play at the higher end of the game.

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I would say only Chicken has tried to embrace this without any preconceived ideas. Singsomethingsimple seems obsessed with comparing apples with pears. However doing that fails to give any consideration to what players Sammy Morgan inherited when he joined the academy and what his legacy to Ricky Martin was when he left. That''s because he''s unable to look at things objectively with an open mind and has come into this discussion blinkered and with the narrowest agenda of most of the posters on this thread.

 

 

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"Sing - you have changed the goalposts. You said we should be able to get enough talent out of the population at hand, but then state we shouldn''t have shut the Bristol centre or that the Hatfield link is doing us no good"

That isn''t necessarily what I am saying, I am saying that for the last 15 years we have seen much less/no local talent come through, but we have certainly see local talent come through in the past.

"The problem I have is that you can''t really have it both ways. Either we have enough resources in terms of young people in Norfolk to work with or we don''t"

No, you and Nigel can''t have it both ways. Either we are talking about a 90 minute catchment area or we are talking about Norfolk. When providing examples of "local" talent I have provided examples of players from Suffolk and a little beyond. You called Huntingdon right, turns out it is 15 minutes outside of our catchment area by car, and half an hour outside by train, but when defining "local talent" it is you and Nigel who are referring to "Norfolk", think you will find I''ve stuck to the 90 minute catchment area, hence why I''ve included Ruel Fox, Louie Donowa, Chris Martin, Andy Marshall, and others, in the definition of "local talent", because they were not from Norfolk but they would now fall within our catchment area.

"And as for educating me as to what ''cultured'' means - when?"

Tom Adeyemi thread.

"I just don''t like the way that because we are not beating everyone at the moment people are picking out random things to criticise the club for - it just isn''t acceptable"

I haven''t picked out a random thing to criticise the club for, I''ve been bemoaning the standard of our youth team players for many years.

"And by not finding the talent, I meant is the talent there as much as anything else. We could have millions of youngsters (actually we have roughly 130k aged between 0-14 in Norfolk - or around 15% of the population which is bellow national average) but if there isn''t the talent there it''s not going to be magicked up"

We have no way of knowing whether Jarvis and Henderson, and even Chris Martin have the "talent", and whether that has not been harnessed. I think it is undeniable that Martin has talent, can''t you remember his League One goals? You yourself have questioned the talent and ability of Danny Mills, an England International who played in a World Cup and won a League Cup medal. Perhaps the question should be "why aren''t we harnessing the talent of our players".

"And as for the team:

GK: Green,

DF: Drury, Spillane, Shackell, Francombe.

MF: D. Russell, I. Henderson, Lansbury, C.Martin.

ST: Bellamy, Ryan Jarvis"

Drury and Lansbury cannot be claimed to have come through our youth team, surely? And did you read the rules? It says "1. They can''t play for Norwich now", I think you will find that Chris Martin and Tom Adeyemi are still Norwich players. It also says "currently play in the top 4 english leagues?". You have selected Darel Russell who was released by Portsmouth and is currently on trial in Canada with Toronto FC.

So you are criticizing my team, which I tried very hard to compile by bending the rules, and have subsequently compiled your own by bending even more rules than I did. What do you want, a medal for biggest bender?

"Well by my maths, and your logic, Ruel Fox has to be omitted as a Morgan player because he wasn''t"

I mentioned Ruel Fox because Nigel claimed that we traditionally don''t produce any players locally, I threw his name in the ring alongside other players from the Eighties and Nineties, to show that we have produced plenty of local players. I think you will find that his name was first mentioned by me in that context.

"Like I said, in some ways I don''t disagree but you don''t half have to be such a clott about it. And again, making up (which is what you have done) averages to suit your argument is not fact finding nor accurate"

You and Nigel can''t agree on whether you are talking about Norfolk, or about our catchment area. You have used Norfolk demographics again in your response. Our catchment area has produced good players, some who have come through at Norwich, some who have come through at Ipswich, some from Peterborough and Cambridge.

"What I would say to you is that in the ''90''s we clearly fed off the success off the earlier years when we were premiership and had money to invest in projects further afield"

We were in the Premiership before the early-Nineties then were we? And we had pots of money in the 1980''s? We were a selling club, and one of the players that we sold was Justin Fashanu (brought up in Attleborough, within our catchment area).

"We then got by on drips and drabs, the occasional ''success story'' by which I mean Green who has had a much more sustained run as part of the England set up rather than Mills who played in 2002 only due to G.Neville being injured"

Danny Mills got 19 caps and reached a Champions League Semi-Final. I love the way that you accuse me of being negative towards recent Norwich youth players before you rubbish possibly the most successful English International that we''ve produced in modern history.

"However, recently there has been somewhat of a revival which appears to also be increasing the quality of the players coming out. A few years ago you had the likes of the Jarvis brothers and their year"

I agree that there should be great hope that Declan Rudd, Tom Adeyemi, and Korey Smith will go on to achieve a lot more in football than the likes of Ryan Jarvis and Dean Sinclair. But I remember Ryan Jarvis being touted as the next Chris Sutton, I can remember Ian Henderson scoring some cracking goals at Carrow Road, I can remember the Jarvis wonder goal against Liverpool. You will find dozens of former highly rated youngsters in League One and League Two, Jose Baxter is the latest. We are a couple of years off working out just where Korey Smith and Tom Adeyemi belong. I have huge hopes for both of them, but I have huge hopes for all Norwich youngsters and the last successful one was Jason Shackell, nothing has changed yet. Perhaps even Chris Martin will get a move somewhere and prove his mettle in the Championship. I HOPE THAT THEY ALL DO GREAT.

"In between that you would have looked down the leagues and found precious few ex Norwich academy players playing"

You would actually have found several ex-Norwich players playing who are no longer there. And that is precisely my point. Robert Eagle is now at Lowestoft, Andrew-Cave Brown went to Leyton Orient and was last seen at Lowestoft and has quit football, Danny Gay spent two years at Southend and is now at AFC Sudbury. A lot of the players that we see at lower league clubs will slip down the leagues. Dean Sinclair is now in the Blue Square South. Look at Ryan Jarvis, at one of the weakest teams in League Two. They all find their level in time.

"My hope is that the academy goes from strength to strength and continues to improve from year to year. That puts us in a better position to be creating the next generation of home grown players of the level needed to play at the higher end of the game"

And like I have said, I hope that we start producing Championship standard players, and I hope that at least one or two of Rudd, Steer, Adeyemi, Smith, and Martin will become players of that standard. But I''d like to see where they are playing at 24, 25, 26 before calling them Championship players. Only Martin has played a moderate amount of Championship football, only 80 or 90 games though. Adrian Forbes and Chris Llewellyn played more Championship football than that, and you yourself have labelled them as League One players.

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"No, you and Nigel can''t have it both ways. Either we are talking about a 90 minute catchment area or we are talking about Norfolk."

Well if you read the thread we were talking about the catchment area and then the population of Norfolk was raised by someone other than myself or Nutty. Oh yeah, it was you - stating that we had more people in Norfolk available to us than the ''average'' other teams have.

If that doesn''t suggest you were saying we should be getting more out of that population I don''t know what does.

"When providing examples of "local" talent I have provided examples of players from Suffolk and a little beyond. You called Huntingdon right, turns out it is 15 minutes outside of our catchment area by car, and half an hour outside by train, but when defining "local talent" it is you and Nigel who are referring to "Norfolk", think you will find I''ve stuck to the 90 minute catchment area, hence why I''ve included Ruel Fox, Louie Donowa, Chris Martin, Andy Marshall, and others, in the definition of "local talent", because they were not from Norfolk but they would now fall within our catchment area."

See above. You brought up the argument that ''Norfolk'' has a bigger population than most clubs do on average. I think you need to consider that perhaps that part of your argument is what is confusing things rather than blaming others for something they did not do - eg bring in the population of Norfolk, which at least hints that is what you mean by local.

Also it is worth while noting that Nutty was the first one to mention ''catchment'' area - after you had mentioned the averages and the population of Norfolk.

"Tom Adeyemi thread."

Sorry, must of missed it in which case you have failed to educate me. Oh well, judging by this thread I won''t have missed much. Oh and boy am I right!

"If you don''t understand the difference between a cultured midfielder and a box-to-box midfielder then that is your problem not mine.

David Fox is a cultured midfielder, Damien Francis was a box-to-box midfielder, Tettey can probably be considered a box-to-box midfielder. Phil Mulryne was a cultured midfielder, as was Ian Crook.

There isn''t a single dig at either Hughton or Adeyemi in my post you confrontational asswipe. David Fox, cultured midfielder, doesn''t get a look in. Yes?"

So unfortunately it looks like I am not the one that needs educating. It appears that you are confusing a box to ''box midfielder'' with the likes of Gary Holt and a number of other players.

It actually proves my point. Gerrard is often referred to as a box to box midfielder, strange that he has also been referred to as cultured.

"We were in the Premiership before the early-Nineties then were we?"

Nope and it''s not what I was stating either. But the premiership brought more money to the club.

"And we had pots of money in the 1980''s?"

See above - but in addition, we were not £20million in debt.

"We were a selling club, and one of the players that we sold was Justin Fashanu (brought up in Attleborough, within our catchment area)."

And we still were until Big Mac came in, infact we have been even more so since relegation in the ''90''s, any player whether youth or otherwise that showed any promise has been sold on, quite a few for profits. Again nothing new, and no different to any other championship, Division 1 team at that time.

I''d also like to add that the likes of Dean Sinclair that slipped down the leagues is mirrored by the likes of Adrian Coote. There have been plenty of those as well as the success, as I said before all you have to do is look at the actual figures and you''ll see that only a small number of the total number of academy products nationwide, make it as professional footballers.

To the rest of you ramble.

The point is the half reasonable points you have tried to make have been incredibly poorly presented with moving parameters.

The best example is you saying we haven''t done well enough, giving every club an average population to pull from (which would include the population of Norfolk) and then tell us that Norfolk has a larger population than the average to draw from.

You then go on to ignore criticism of using that rather skewed example to talk about the catchment area which people had already previously mentioned.

I don''t have a problem with people asking the question - do you think the academy should be producing higher quality footballers? That is a valid question, and one worthy of debate.

The problem is you have come on here trying to tell people that they are wrong, that your view is right and when they essentially resist having your opinion rammed down their throat you get slightly edgy and abusive.

So to summarise:

1) be less of a tool

2) make your view more clear and less forceful

3) you never taught me anything

4) be nice and play fair

5) oh and always look both ways before crossing the road.

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"If that doesn''t suggest you were saying we should be getting more out of that population I don''t know what does"

I do believe that we should be getting more out of Norfolk, yes.

"Also it is worth while noting that Nutty was the first one to mention ''catchment'' area - after you had mentioned the averages and the population of Norfolk"

Yes, it is indeed you and Nigel who are using the catchment area as an excuse for poor academy performance, not me.

"So unfortunately it looks like I am not the one that needs educating. It appears that you are confusing a box to ''box midfielder'' with the likes of Gary Holt and a number of other players"

I never said anything about Gary Holt you retard.

"See above - but in addition, we were not £20million in debt"

Perhaps you need to understand the concept of real terms money and inflation, as well as the balance sheet. Money is just a number, our debt rose as a number, but so did our income and the value of our land assets. For the same reason Chris Sutton was British transfer record at £5m.

"I''d also like to add that the likes of Dean Sinclair that slipped down the leagues is mirrored by the likes of Adrian Coote. There have been plenty of those as well as the success, as I said before all you have to do is look at the actual figures and you''ll see that only a small number of the total number of academy products nationwide, make it as professional footballers"

I''m attempting to argue that we haven''t produced anybody of note in a decade. You are struggling to argue against that.

"I don''t have a problem with people asking the question - do you think the academy should be producing higher quality footballers? That is a valid question, and one worthy of debate"

Do you think the academy should be producing higher quality footballers?

"The problem is you have come on here trying to tell people that they are wrong, that your view is right and when they essentially resist having your opinion rammed down their throat you get slightly edgy and abusive"

Actually no, it was you that did that at the very beginning of the thread. I''m entitled to my opinion, as long as it is exactly the same as yours. My opinion has remained the same throughout this thread, has been the same for several years, and won''t be changed by you. I''ve told you my opinion several times, I don''t care what yours is. You and Nigel seem to care what mine is. I don''t want to change yours, you aren''t going to change mine.

"that your view is right and when they essentially resist having your opinion rammed down their throat you get slightly edgy and abusive"

No, actually I have my opinion, it is my opinion and it belongs to me, I am not trying to change your opinion, it is you and Nigel who are continuing to question mine and suggest that it is invalid.

So to summarise:

1) be less of a tool

2) make your view more clear and less forceful

3) you never taught me anything

4) be nice and play fair

5) oh and always look both ways before crossing the road.

Neither my opinion or your opinion is going to change here. Do you need me to remind you what my opinion is?

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My opinion is:

1). We shouldn''t have closed Bristol.

2). If we had to close Bristol then we should reopen it.

3). Our academy has underperformed in the past decade, even when considering the 90 minute rule.

4). Hatfield hasn''t been anywhere near as successful as Bristol.

5). If the latest crop don''t cut the mustard then perhaps we should consider changing things, including personnel.

I don''t care and have never cared whether you or Nigel, or anybody else, agrees or disagrees with my opinion. It is Nigel, and then you, who have attacked my opinions in an attempt to suppress and discredit them throughout. I respect your right to an opinion and I don''t care how you express them.

But nothing that neither of you have said have given me good reason to change my opinions. Is that clear?

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Back on topic:

Just to be sure this is what Banana said:

"Is it possible to make a starting 11 or maybe even a full 18 man squad using just players that have come through our academy and currently play in the top 4 english leagues? 2 Rules - 1. They can''t play for Norwich now. 2. They must have played for the first team at least once.

I''ll start with Robert Green in goal!"

My team:

GK: Green,

DF: Drury, Spillane, Shackell, Francombe.

MF: D. Russell, I. Henderson, Lansbury, C.Martin.

ST: Bellamy, Ryan Jarvis.

Subs: P.Hayes, Lewis, Lee-Barrett, Cureton, A. Marshall, Adeyemi.

"Drury and Lansbury cannot be claimed to have come through our youth team, surely?"

Looking at this with an open mind I assume you mean academy as that is what Banana said - not youth team (although that in itself is ambiguous after all is the U14''s not a youth team?).

As a recommendation google flown the nest and bookmark it, it''s a pretty useful quick glance resource. In there you will find the following, and I quote:

''Adam Drury was at Norwich City with Kit Carson before arriving at Peterborough United as a 15 year-old" - so in this example he did in fact come through our academy or youth set up before being moved on.

Lansbury was in the Norwich youth system/academy from 1998-1999. He was born in Enfield, not far from Hatfield either. This one is more tenuous as he was only with us for a season or two as an 8 and 9 year old, but Banana''s rules didn''t really state how long they had to have been in the academy - slight bending but less so than ignoring them.

"And did you read the rules? It says "1. They can''t play for Norwich now", I think you will find that Chris Martin and Tom Adeyemi are still Norwich players. It also says "currently play in the top 4 english leagues?". You have selected Darel Russell who was released by Portsmouth and is currently on trial in Canada with Toronto FC."

Yes to all of these - but if you look I did identify that. Although having said that I omitted Matt Ball who is on the books at Stevenage - so if you get precious switch him in for Russell. Drop C.Martin for Cureton. You still have a legitimate 11.

"So you are criticizing my team, which I tried very hard to compile by bending the rules, and have subsequently compiled your own by bending even more rules than I did. What do you want, a medal for biggest bender?"

I have not bent the rules more, in fact if you look closely I have actually tried to adhere by them more closely as a result bending less than you. In fact if you change the players I have suggested the only one that is close is Lansbury, but he fore-fills the original criteria.

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Nigel surely the idea ofthe academy is to develop kids from a very young age and let them grow into footballers through the right coaching and development program ala Spain, Germany, Holland Belguim ect. Our academy ( like lots of English academies ) seem to think if a team loses @ 7 / 8 / 9 the kids are not good enough, what really is happening is we do not understand how to develop young kids into good / top footballers.

Kids are time trialed and the ones not quick enough get released unfortunately a kid born in July / August will not be as fast as a kid born the previous September - its not rocket science. I willhappily get a group of under 9''s born in May  June July August ( within the 90 min cattchment to play the academy under 8''s who will all be born Sept / Oct  / Nov. I suspect the 8''s would get absoloutely hammered hence why it wont ever happen     

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