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Norwich Academy Team that have left.

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Nutty is right. Some people have no clue about how limiting the academy rules were for us as a club.

Prior to those rules we were able to scout all over bringing in the likes of Eadie, O''Neill, Bellamy, Green, Adrian Forbes amongst others.

Since then we have struggled o compete considering most of our given catchment area is either North Sea or low density population spread over a wide area.

Nearly every other club is in a better position in terms of population.

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Nutty / Chicken

I fully understand the main reason why we haven''t been able to produce that many good players recently.  However without getting back to the Premier League we would still be in a similar position moving forward.  It is only by being Premier League that we can get Academy 1 status, and once the initial support from the Premier League runs out, retaining Premier League status will be the only way we can afford to pump in the £2 million plus we require.  

 

Nutty, I know you are sensitive to this because of the great support you gave to FONCY but it is a fact of life that if we didn''t have Academy 1 status now, in the future we would see all the good local prospects nicked by those clubs with such status.   The decision to win back Premier League status quickly which McNally et al instigated (even if more quickly than expected) looks even more important given the new world of Academy development.

 

It effectively is not going to be cost efficient for the likes of Crewe to survive on their traditional way of youth development in this new world because the Academy 1 clubs will be able to poach players before they get too valuable.  All in all, glad we got it and Scum FC didn''t for instance. 

 

To finally answer your question Nutty, although we have some geographical advantage we are going to be up against the Premier League clubs in London and the midlands (most probably the West Ham''s, Fulhams, West Brom''s, Villans and Stoke''s) to sign the new local talent.  But we also have to look even further afield and be able to persuade kids from abroad to come to Norwich for their education.  I have close experience of the reach of the big four.  My daughter''s school friend Alex Kiwomya was picked up by Chelsea under the old rules because he was able to move to London at 15 (despite his family staying up here) because Chelsea could pay for all the expenses involved (they also have about 10 ovcerseas youngsters on thier books in a similar fashion).  Norwich could never afford that cost under the old system although technically it would have gotten around the old 90 minute rule.   

 

The real issue underlying all this about the lack of local boy done good, is that although Norfolk''s population is growing, the probability of a world class footballer being produced still remains very low in comparison to the more densly populated other parts of the UK.  Our scouting system has to be both wider and deeper going forward to encompass young talent all over the world.  That is some investment.  Tricky business this Academy lark.

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One player who recently left our academy who I personally am sure will go onto to be a top GK (if he keeps his head screwed on) will be Angus Gunn. Left us for Man City academy a year or two back, quality young GK.

Runs in the family obviously

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There''s not many facts there Sheff. And category one status is not only available to premier league clubs. The travelling time  rules of the past were also only for schoolboys. that''s why we got players discarded from other clubs when they reached 16. I assume they were discarded to make room for the foreign boys who entered the academies at 16. We also had foreign lads at our academy over the last couple of years.

 

I would like to know how many players in the premier league came through any club''s academy as a schoolboy in 1993 and compare that figure to how many players in the premier league who came through any club''s academy as a school boy in 2013. That would be an interesting comparison don''t you think? And then we could move onto where all the players who came through any club''s academies as schoolboys are playing now? I would guess the result would be at a much lower level than they used to 20 years ago.

 

 

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"Nutty is right. Some people have no clue about how limiting the academy rules were for us as a club"

Nutty is right when he mentions the 90 minute rule, but he was quoting me sweetcheeks and here''s a quote from me on another current PinkUn thread:

"Some of our youth players still do live in digs with local families Jas, and many more of them will now that we can recruit from around the country again"

So don''t be so quick to assume lack of knowledge, please.

As for who we can compare with, I can think of a good one....., Ipswich Town. They are 50 minutes away in the car and their academy has been ridiculously more productive than ours:

Jordan Rhodes (£8m)

Connor Wickham (£13m)

Darren Bent (£18m)

That''s £39m worth of former Ipswich academy strikers out in the world.

Want to know how Ipswich managed to get Oldham born and Scotland+Yorkshire raised Jordan Rhodes in their youth team at 14? They gave his dad a job. In order to do that job his dad had to move to..... Ipswich.

Connor Whickham is from Colchester. It takes less than 90 minutes to get to Colchester on the train.

Darren Bent is an Arsenal fan who moved with his parents to Huntingdon at 10 years of age. You can get to Huntingdon in 90 minutes.

So yes it is depressing, and if it is a dig at the club then so be it, the academy hasn''t pulled its weight.

Other Ipswich youth players playing in Championship or League One:

Liam Trotter (Millwall)

Dean Bowditch (MK Dons)

Owen Garvan (Crystal Palace)

Tommy Smith (Ipswich)

Luke Hyam (Ipswich)

Josh Carson (Ipswich)

Richard Wright (Man City)

That''s just off of the top of my head.

Why is it that academy rules are "limiting" for us, yet Ipswich get around this every year by flying to Dublin, signing five or six Irish 16 year olds, flying them over and shoving them in digs? The 90 minute rule has NEVER stopped us from signing 16 year olds, only kids of school age.

Craig Bellamy was on our books from the age of 10, but he was living in Wales and playing for one of our satellite teams and didn''t move to Norwich until he was 15. Owen Garvan didn''t join Ipswich until he was 16.

It was never made illegal to operate satellite academies in whichever city or country you wanted to. That''s why Crystal Palace have an academy in the USA, that''s why Southampton have a satelitte academy in Bath.

And we had one of those too in the west of the country. We can thank that for Bellamy, Llewellyn, and although I''m not sure probably Jamie Shore, Darren Eade and Jamie Cureton. All from the Wales/Bristol area, WHERE WE ONCE BASED A YOUTH SYSTEM.

Gareth Bale (from Wales) came through Southampton''s satellite academy in Bath.

Norwich have never signed 8 year olds and moved them and their families the other side of the country, or made young kids commute for six hours every Sunday to play a game. Can blame the 90 minute rule all you like, it was our decision not to continue recruiting in the west of England which has messed our academy up.

So yes it is depressing. I just have to compare our production line of Kings Lynn and Lowestoft Town players with the incredible youth systems at Ipswich and Southampton who successfully negate the rules and reap the rewards accordingly.

So yes, it is depressing. We might as well not have bothered to have an academy at all for the past decade.

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Olly,

Bryan Gunn gets top job in football agency, Man City get to sign Angus Gunn.

Ipswich give Andy Rhodes a job at their club, they get to sign Jordan Rhodes.

There is absolutely nothing stopping Norwich doing similar things with the parents of 14 or 15 year old kids from footballing families.

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The clue is in the words travelling time and not travelling miles or distance. So to take that on to the ridiculous binner comparison how much population is accessible in a 90 minute drive from ipswich and how much population is accessible in a 90 minute drive from Norwich. Think about it....

 

 

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]Olly, Bryan Gunn gets top job in football agency, Man City get to sign Angus Gunn. Ipswich give Andy Rhodes a job at their club, they get to sign Jordan Rhodes. There is absolutely nothing stopping Norwich doing similar things with the parents of 14 or 15 year old kids from footballing families.[/quote]

 

Have you got kids?

 

 

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Perhaps somebody would like to explain to me why we as a club chose, or were forced to, close down our Satelitte academy in Bristol, whilst Southampton managed to successfully keep their academy in Bath open through the past decade or so?

Their catchment area is 50% sea. http://www.sport.co.uk/features/what-is-the-secret-behind-southamptons-youth-academy/1622

WE DID THIS, WHY DID WE STOP? That is the question.

Eadie, Bellamy, Llewellyn, Cureton, Shore.... all a product of our Bristol team.

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"The clue is in the words travelling time and not travelling miles or distance. So to take that on to the ridiculous binner comparison how much population is accessible in a 90 minute drive from ipswich and how much population is accessible in a 90 minute drive from Norwich. Think about it"

I did think about it, and I just illustrated perfectly how Norwich could have signed all three of their most successful current former-academy players. THINK ABOUT IT.

Darren Bent + Connor Wickham, both within 90 minute radius. Jordan Rhodes scouted and then signed with his dad getting a job out of the deal. THINK ABOUT IT.

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That''s just plain ridiculous. You''re assuming so many things there.

So far, over the last few weeks the only clubs that have been held up for comparison are Southampton and Ipswich. Don''t you think they were jealous of our academy in the late 80s and early 90s. All club''s academies have peaks and troughs. Man Utd had a golden era but even they have suffered comparitive troughs. Chelsea''s academy has been mentioned. How many of their team came through it as schoolboys.

 

How many boys go through the premier league academies each year and where are they playing now?

 

 

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]Perhaps somebody would like to explain to me why we as a club chose, or were forced to, close down our Satelitte academy in Bristol, whilst Southampton managed to successfully keep their academy in Bath open through the past decade or so? Their catchment area is 50% sea. http://www.sport.co.uk/features/what-is-the-secret-behind-southamptons-youth-academy/1622 WE DID THIS, WHY DID WE STOP? That is the question. Eadie, Bellamy, Llewellyn, Cureton, Shore.... all a product of our Bristol team.[/quote]

 

Bath is 53 miles from Southampton and with the roads it is within 90 minutes travelling time. Do you think that could have something to do with it?

 

 

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Our academy was productive in the early to mid nineties because we had a satellite academy in Bristol, which we elected to close. Stop blaming catchment areas, it is an excuse for mediocrity.

As much as I sympathize with the fact that your admirable fundraising efforts have proved relatively fruitless over the past decade, the simple fact is that we have constantly failed to sign and develop players capable playing at a high level in the professional leagues.

The Ipswich example is the perfect example, whether you like it or not, because when you look at the players that they have churned out over the past decade or so..... you will find that most would have been eligible to sign for Norwich City under the 90 minute rule.

The Southampton example is nothing other than illustration of how the 90 minute rule is NOT what hindered us, but our DECISION somewhere in our history to CLOSE our BRISTOL academy.

You can''t say that we don''t produce Bellamy''s and Eadie''s anymore because of the 90 minute rule, we don''t produce Bellamy''s and Eadie''s anymore because we CLOSED OUR BRISTOL ACADEMY.

SOUTHAMPTON STILL HAVE THEIRS IN BATH.

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]Perhaps somebody would like to explain to me why we as a club chose, or were forced to, close down our Satelitte academy in Bristol, whilst Southampton managed to successfully keep their academy in Bath open through the past decade or so? Their catchment area is 50% sea. http://www.sport.co.uk/features/what-is-the-secret-behind-southamptons-youth-academy/1622 WE DID THIS, WHY DID WE STOP? That is the question. Eadie, Bellamy, Llewellyn, Cureton, Shore.... all a product of our Bristol team.[/quote]

The previous academy rules stated that teams were only allowed satellites on exceptional circumstances and could only have one. Norwich have had a satellite site in Hertfordshire for a while (I believe this is were Korey Smith and Henri Lansbury were) - unfortunately this site is pretty close to Arsenal so they have made off with the better players (Lansbury jumps to mind, as well as Philip Roberts).

 

Norwich''s academy has suffered from under funding in the past few years - Roeder confirmed this whilst he was manager and cleared out a lot of players who were never going to make it. For me a big issue is decisions made regarding the academy don''t have a huge amount of instant impact, but the true effects aren''t felt for 5 or so years.

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"Bath is 53 miles from Southampton and with the roads it is within 90 minutes travelling time. Do you think that could have something to do with it?"

I don''t know if you are terminally stupid or not, but the point here is that due to that academy they are able to sign players who live WITHIN 90 MINUTES OF BATH.

THEY CAN SIGN PLAYERS WHO ARE 90 MINUTES FROM SOUTHAMPTON, AND PLAYERS WHO LIVE 90 MINUTES FROM BATH.

IF WE HAD OUR BRISTOL ACADEMY WE COULD SIGN PLAYERS WHO LIVE WITHIN 90 MINUTES OF NORWICH AND WITHIN 90 MINUTES OF BRISTOL.

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Bethnal Yellow, it was also where Jason Shackell was.

I think that reopening a satelitte somewhere should be a priority. Bristol sounds like a good idea, as it happens.

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Or why not France? Or Spain? Or Italy? Or Norway?

If the 90 minute rule really makes our lives that difficult, despite the fact that Ipswich have churned out three or four England Internationals from within our catchment area, then we have to do something about it.

The team that I pulled together does nothing other than prove that.

If our academy doesn''t start producing the goods then it is better off closed. Might sound harsh, but it is. We spend a lot of money on it and there is one current Premier League player who has graduated from it, and he''s usually on the bench for the 20th placed team.

We have no idea what "level" Smith, Adeyemi, and Martin will settle at, but we are still waiting for our Oxlade-Chamberlains, Bale''s, and Walcotts, that much is certainly clear.

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]Bethnal Yellow, it was also where Jason Shackell was. I think that reopening a satelitte somewhere should be a priority. Bristol sounds like a good idea, as it happens.[/quote]

Don''t need one anymore as there are no catchment area restrictions - I''m not sure how the Cat 1 academy rules sit with satellite centres anyway.

 

If you look at the players current in the Norwich academy it already has a much more international feeling, I believe there are players from Germany, Italy and France currently in the team. Signs of progress indeed - but let''s not kid ourselves about a youth academy, few clubs (even fewer Premier League ones) have a significant element of their teams produced in their academies. Norwich should be aiming for one first teamer from the youth team and maybe another couple of squad players - if they can achieve this in the next 5 years or so I would consider that a success.

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]Well we do need one. How else would we sign a 12 year old from Manchester and play him every Sunday?[/quote]

They are moved into digs, this is what the previous rules didn''t allow.

 

The kids weren''t allowed to play for a club more than 90 mins from their registered parent/guardian''s home address. Catergory 1 status means Norwich don''t have to move the family (which some clubs were doing) but just the kid - which saves a hugh amount of money.

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Do they really move 12 year olds into digs? I mean, that''s what YTS kids did at 16 to 19, but Bellamy only moved here a year early at fifteen because he knew that he had to get out of Cardiff because his mates were getting into crime and drugs.

Would you allow your 12 year old kid to move 300 miles away to live with some foster family? Why? There must be twenty clubs in the Manchester area?

The more that I hear the less that I really understand what the actual benefit of this Cat 1 status is, with the exception of perhaps getting away with signing kids from London, where absolutely no actually good kid would choose Norwich over a Chelsea or an Arsenal.

Unless we can open a satelitte academy in the North East, North West, or Wales, where loads of talented kids seems to come from, then what is the actual point?

12 year olds in digs? Seriously?

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]"Bath is 53 miles from Southampton and with the roads it is within 90 minutes travelling time. Do you think that could have something to do with it?" I don''t know if you are terminally stupid or not, but the point here is that due to that academy they are able to sign players who live WITHIN 90 MINUTES OF BATH. THEY CAN SIGN PLAYERS WHO ARE 90 MINUTES FROM SOUTHAMPTON, AND PLAYERS WHO LIVE 90 MINUTES FROM BATH. IF WE HAD OUR BRISTOL ACADEMY WE COULD SIGN PLAYERS WHO LIVE WITHIN 90 MINUTES OF NORWICH AND WITHIN 90 MINUTES OF BRISTOL.[/quote]

 

And you''re sure of that fact are you? So the only club who could find a loophole in the FA rules governing schoolboys was Southampton. Why don''t you read the rules first and then set your keyboard to caps lock.

 

 

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]Do they really move 12 year olds into digs? I mean, that''s what YTS kids did at 16 to 19, but Bellamy only moved here a year early at fifteen because he knew that he had to get out of Cardiff because his mates were getting into crime and drugs. Would you allow your 12 year old kid to move 300 miles away to live with some foster family? Why? There must be twenty clubs in the Manchester area? The more that I hear the less that I really understand what the actual benefit of this Cat 1 status is, with the exception of perhaps getting away with signing kids from London, where absolutely no actually good kid would choose Norwich over a Chelsea or an Arsenal. Unless we can open a satelitte academy in the North East, North West, or Wales, where loads of talented kids seems to come from, then what is the actual point? 12 year olds in digs? Seriously?[/quote]

A lot of kids aged 12 (and younger) in boarding schools around the country - not that I imagine Norwich will do anything as successful but La Masia at Barcelona is this kind of set-up. It is also what clubs like Watford were proposing to do. With the promise of the untold riches of Premier League football plenty of parents will be prepared to let their kid live in a boarding school/digs arrangement. It is fairly common in gymanstics or ballet so why not football?

 

I''m not 100% sure satellites will be able to continue with the change of rules, and even if they do I would guess Category 1 teams will just go in and take the kids from them to their own academies. Far better to be with the main club than stuck out somewhere else, out of sight (this is certainly how prospective clubs will sell it to the kids and their parents). Norwich aren''t ever going to be able to compete with Arsenal and Chelsea in attracting young players, so they will have to rely on good coaching and excellent scouting (even then any gems they uncover will be tempted away) and a satellite centre isn''t going to help that.

 

As for Cat 1, it certainly isn''t perfect and won''t instantly solve all of Norwich''s youth production woes, but it is certainly much better to be in that club than outside of it.

 

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And the much vaunted binboy academy, despite the riches of their much vaunted rich investor, didn''t apply for cat one. Much to the dismay of the binfans.

 

 

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Operation of Football Academies, Centres of Excellence and Satellites

17 Subject to the requirements of this Section of these Rules, a Club may operate either a Football Academy or a Centre

of Excellence.

18 With the prior written consent of the Board:

18.1 a Club which operates a Football Academy may also operate one satellite Football Academy; and

18.2 a Club which operates a Centre of Excellence may also operate one satellite Centre of Excellence, provided that

a satellite Football Academy or a satellite Centre of Excellence may be attended only by Youth Players in age

groups Under 9 to Under 16 inclusive and that at least once in each week of operation they are coached or play

with Youth Players attending the Football Academy or Centre of Excellence operated by the Club.

19 The Club must be responsible for the training of all Youth Players registered with it at a Football Academy, Centre of

Excellence or any satellite centre of the same.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

And the much vaunted binboy academy, despite the riches of their much vaunted rich investor, didn''t apply for cat one. Much to the dismay of the binfans.

 

 

[/quote]We can only afford it because we''re in the premier league, most champs clubs can''t afford to pay for cat 1 and pay for promotion. 

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They are the only rules that I can find Nutty Nigel, seeing as you have quite obviously read the rules yourself, perhaps you can link to them for my convenience, preferably with the rule number which states that players must live within 90 minutes of the parent academy to sign for a satellite academy?

Whilst you are at it, perhaps you could explain how it is exactly that you can travel from Cardiff to Southampton in 90 minutes.

Perhaps you could also explain how Korey Smith could travel from Hatfield to Norwich in 90 minutes, according to the AA it takes 2 hours 11 minutes.

Perhaps you could also explain how Jason Shackell could travel from Stevenage to Norwich in 90 minutes. Legally that is, while sticking to speed limits.

Is it because they didn''t have to? Because we had a satelitte centre of excellence? Yes Nigel, yes I think that might be right, don''t you?

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