Will Hoolahan Go Down As A Legend?

[Aggy 755]

I think there is a difference between being a key player and being a legend. A legend, for me, has to have a relationship with the club/fans that is more than just about on field performance.

Take Huckerby - he was one of the best players we''ve had in decades, but the real reason we still love him so much is that he ''became one of us'' almost. Iwan is probably the only other one in my lifetime, and again he had more of a relationship with the fans, we loved him etc.

Lambert, before the relationship was soured this summer, had more than just managerial achievement. He was called ''the Messiah'' by many and we all virtually adored him.

Hoolahan has done loads for the club on field. But there isn''t the same relationship there between him and the club, or him and the fans (at the moment) as there was/is with those I would call ''legends''. If Hoolahan sticks around here and becomes a club ambassador of some description, then that may change. He has certainly done enough on-field to be of very well remembered and regarded, but he is just lacking a bit of the personality side of club legend at the moment, in my eyes.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="Aggy"]He has certainly done enough on-field to be of very well remembered and regarded, but he is just lacking a bit of the personality side of club legend at the moment, in my eyes.[/quote]Ron Saunders is a club legend but certainly wouldn''t win any personality awards, especially from his players. Personality doesn''t come into it.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]

 

OK, I''m obviously out on a limb here (and therefore must be a binner) but I''m going to say no. For me, legend status comes around rarely and really only applies to those who made a tangible difference themselves over a long period or at a push for a  one-off magical moment (eg that Jeremy Goss goal).

 [/quote]

 

That''s quite right, although I would add in those players who have a special relationship with the crowd or symbolise something about the team. It is not always about pure ability. In my time I would only list the following:

Ron Ashman, Terry Bly, Barry Butler, Kevin Keelan, Ron Davies, Duncan Forbes, Martin Peters, Jeremy Goss, Robert Fleck. Bryan Gunn, Darren Huckerby and Iwan Roberts. Plus Dave Stringer as player/manager, and Sir Arthur South, as saviour/chairman.

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

Is Delia a legend?

[Yellowfuture 71]

She is to Wiz

[Aggy 755]

[quote user="lappinitup"]Ron Saunders is a club legend but certainly wouldn''t win any personality awards, especially from his players. Personality doesn''t come into it.[/quote]

Firstly, I''d argue that personality does come into it. You can have cult-like figures who were distinctly average players, but had a connection with the fans and become legendary.

However, like I said in the rest of the post (the bits you didn''t quote), it''s not strictly personality as such, but it is about a further connection with the club or the fans. I can list lots of players who have played well for us. But the legends are those who had something more. That could be something like an adoration from the fans (which may have come about purely because of their on-field performances, but was more than just the odd song and clap whenever they showed a good bit of skill), or it could be because of something they do off-field. 

Hoolahan though doesn''t, for me, fit into either of those categories. Off field he hasn''t created any real ''special'' ties with the club/fans different to any other player. And although he has put in some fine performances over the years, we as fans don''t ''worship'' him in the same way that we ''worshipped'' Lambert, Huckerby, Iwan for instance.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]

 

OK, I''m obviously out on a limb here (and therefore must be a binner) but I''m going to say no. For me, legend status comes around rarely and really only applies to those who made a tangible difference themselves over a long period or at a push for a  one-off magical moment (eg that Jeremy Goss goal).

 [/quote]

 

That''s quite right, although I would add in those players who have a special relationship with the crowd or symbolise something about the team. It is not always about pure ability. In my time I would only list the following:

Ron Ashman, Terry Bly, Barry Butler, Kevin Keelan, Ron Davies, Duncan Forbes, Martin Peters, Jeremy Goss, Robert Fleck. Bryan Gunn, Darren Huckerby and Iwan Roberts. Plus Dave Stringer as player/manager, and Sir Arthur South, as saviour/chairman.

[/quote]

 

Are you leaving Grant Holt out of that list because he''s still playing Purple? Because he fits all your criteria more than some listed.

 

Top five in my time - Kevin Keelan, Martin Peters, Duncan Forbes, Darren Huckerby, Grant Holt. And I''d probably put Trevor Hockey in the top 10. Even though he only played 13 games he certainly has legendary status.

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]

 

OK, I''m obviously out on a limb here (and therefore must be a binner) but I''m going to say no. For me, legend status comes around rarely and really only applies to those who made a tangible difference themselves over a long period or at a push for a  one-off magical moment (eg that Jeremy Goss goal).

 [/quote]

 

That''s quite right, although I would add in those players who have a special relationship with the crowd or symbolise something about the team. It is not always about pure ability. In my time I would only list the following:

Ron Ashman, Terry Bly, Barry Butler, Kevin Keelan, Ron Davies, Duncan Forbes, Martin Peters, Jeremy Goss, Robert Fleck. Bryan Gunn, Darren Huckerby and Iwan Roberts. Plus Dave Stringer as player/manager, and Sir Arthur South, as saviour/chairman.

[/quote]

 

Are you leaving Grant Holt out of that list because he''s still playing Purple? Because he fits all your criteria more than some listed.

 

Top five in my time - Kevin Keelan, Martin Peters, Duncan Forbes, Darren Huckerby, Grant Holt. And I''d probably put Trevor Hockey in the top 10. Even though he only played 13 games he certainly has legendary status.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Partly because he is still playing and partly to enrage posters![:O] I thought about putting in Neil Doncaster for the same reason.[;)] But, seriously, Holt doesn''t fit all my criteria (which I didn''t list entirely) but then most of the players there don''t. He certainly is more of a folk hero than, say, Chris Sutton, but not in Sutton''s class as a player. And the same goes for Iwan Roberts. Nowhere near as good as Sutton, or Ron Davies but gets in on that folk hero basis at a time when we weren''t very good. Equally we have had many better centre-halfs than Forbes - Watson, Bruce, David Jones, Linighan etc etc -  but none who  exemplified the team in the way Forbes did.

By contrast there is no doubt Martin Peters is above anyone else on your list or mine in terms of ability, which is why he is there, but I wouldn''t say he was as loved as some of the lesser players. He was valued and cherished rather than worshipped.

I did consider Hockey but he was indeed only here for a few games. If he had been local - a kind of Norfolk Harry Cripps - he might have made it.

[Davo 0]

Che''s right hand man said: Depends what you define a legend is?

 

This is a key question. I guess if you are the kind of person that votes Dean Ashton and Holt into the club hall of fame then sure Hoolahan is a legend. I''m not really that kind of person. To me legendary status is only given once a player has left the club (either retirement or because they move on to new pastures). Legends are also players that have had an impact beyond anyone else, they are the greatest of our players, thhose few who you will still talk about in glowing terms when you are old.

 

Huckerby was the last legend. He acted like a professional who cared about the club as more than just another employer. He was outspoken at times and criticised the club when it was needed. The way he acted when he was treated so badly showed pure class and he kept his promise never to play against Norwich. He had an imact in his first season and played in such a direct attacking style of football that made watching him so exciting. I am not sure we have had any player since that is comparable.

 

The reason why I don''t see Hoolahan as a legend yet is for two reasons:

 

a) He is still playing and there is still time for him to improve or destroy his status

b) For me he is not at the same level as Hucks and to call Hoolahan a legend would diminish Huckerby''s standing in my eyes.

 

Davo

[Tetteys Jig 830]

Yes, he is. Also, don''t forget that we were above relegation zone until Wes got injured that fateful season.

[Tetteys Jig 830]

So is Balotelli more a legend at Man City than wes is to us because he is more extrovert? Is that how it works?

[hootenanny 0]

A legend is someone who has been a key factor in the clubs success.

For me, over the last 4 years those people are Lambert, Holt and Hoolahan. Nobody has done more for the club, in footballing terms, than these three.

Lets be honest the hall of fame is a bit of joke, I mean Dean Ashton was a good player but he was not part of any great success at Norwich and only was here a year or so.

The comparison in playing terms of Hoolahan and Huckerby is irrelevant, they are completely different players.

How many seasons in the Premier League did Huckerby play for Norwich? How many has Wes played?

One fan may find watching Huckerby more exciting than Hoolahan. Others may argue Hoolahan.

But for me, there''s no doubt in the last four years, watching Wes pull the strings for Norwich and be instrumental in a winning side has been far more enjoyable than Huckerby''s time at Norwich.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

I guess there is no right or wrong in this debate. I tend to agree more with Hootenanny than others. For me Ron Davies and Iwan Roberts can''t possibly be in a hall of fame in front of Holty. Purple has them there. In this case surely we can all be right?

 

 

[Davo 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I guess there is no right or wrong in this debate. I tend to agree more with Hootenanny than others. For me Ron Davies and Iwan Roberts can''t possibly be in a hall of fame in front of Holty. Purple has them there. In this case surely we can all be right?

 

 

[/quote]

 

We are all right as this is a thread purely about opinion. There are no facts, stats or defined criteria what what one must achieve to become a "Club Legend".

 

Davo

[ricardo 7,385]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I guess there is no right or wrong in this debate. I tend to agree more with Hootenanny than others. For me Ron Davies and Iwan Roberts can''t possibly be in a hall of fame in front of Holty. Purple has them there. In this case surely we can all be right?

 

 

[/quote]I''d be amazed if Tommy Bryceland and Kenny Foggo weren''t somewhere on your list. A little further down perhaps?

C''mon withoutc''mon withinyou''ve not seen nothhinglike the John Man-Ning

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="Davo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I guess there is no right or wrong in this debate. I tend to agree more with Hootenanny than others. For me Ron Davies and Iwan Roberts can''t possibly be in a hall of fame in front of Holty. Purple has them there. In this case surely we can all be right?

 

 

[/quote]

 

We are all right as this is a thread purely about opinion. There are no facts, stats or defined criteria what what one must achieve to become a "Club Legend".

 

Davo

[/quote]

 

I think we can all agree on one thing. Whatever the criteria might be they have to be a great deal more stringent than those for the club''s ludicrously bloated "Hall of Fame". Just from the As and Bs Neil Adams? Max Briggs?? Ollie Burton???

[Vazzza 62]

Really interesting thread this, makes for good reading.

My only thoughts on it that haven''t already been overly discussed is when a player can gain Legend status. I think this can''t be decided until the player retires. He may decide to move in the Summer and pick 1p5wich as his destination, then single handedly resurrect them into a prem side in 2-3 years, I can''t see anyone calling him a legend then! I know this won''t happen, but just an example of how a player could destroy a great reputation in seconds.

Personally, I think he will gain legend status. Especially in this generation of fans eyes who haven''t seen some of the other names mentioned elsewhere on this thread.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]Whatever the criteria might be they have to be a great deal more stringent than those for the club''s ludicrously bloated "Hall of Fame".[/quote]Is the Doc in the hall of fame.? And if not, why not?I still miss him. [:''(] [:''(] [:''(]

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]Whatever the criteria might be they have to be a great deal more stringent than those for the club''s ludicrously bloated "Hall of Fame".[/quote]

Is the Doc in the hall of fame.? And if not, why not?

I still miss him. [:''(] [:''(] [:''(]
[/quote]

 

If - as you can see - Darren Kenton for heaven''s sake is in then I don''t see why the Doc shouldn''t be:

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Norwich_City_F.C._Hall_of_Fame_members

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Davo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I guess there is no right or wrong in this debate. I tend to agree more with Hootenanny than others. For me Ron Davies and Iwan Roberts can''t possibly be in a hall of fame in front of Holty. Purple has them there. In this case surely we can all be right?

 

 

[/quote]

 

We are all right as this is a thread purely about opinion. There are no facts, stats or defined criteria what what one must achieve to become a "Club Legend".

 

Davo

[/quote]

 

I think we can all agree on one thing. Whatever the criteria might be they have to be a great deal more stringent than those for the club''s ludicrously bloated "Hall of Fame". Just from the As and Bs Neil Adams? Max Briggs?? Ollie Burton???

[/quote]

 

Being in the club''s hall of fame must devalue the legendary status of all our choices.

 

Hall Of Fame Out!!!!![:@]

 

Perhaps somerone could print some stickers...

 

 

[Davo 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Davo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I guess there is no right or wrong in this debate. I tend to agree more with Hootenanny than others. For me Ron Davies and Iwan Roberts can''t possibly be in a hall of fame in front of Holty. Purple has them there. In this case surely we can all be right?

 

 

[/quote]

 

We are all right as this is a thread purely about opinion. There are no facts, stats or defined criteria what what one must achieve to become a "Club Legend".

 

Davo

[/quote]

 

I think we can all agree on one thing. Whatever the criteria might be they have to be a great deal more stringent than those for the club''s ludicrously bloated "Hall of Fame". Just from the As and Bs Neil Adams? Max Briggs?? Ollie Burton???

[/quote]

 

Can''t disagree with your point there. Although it does make me wonder if you had of got to C would you of mentioned Crook?

 

Davo

[Tumbleweed 106]

The mention of Crook triggers a thought. That side of the early 90s included some really good players such as Crook himself, Culverhouse, Bowen, Butterworth, Linighan, Sutton, Fox, and so on. But in the more limited lists of true legends proposed by some on this thread, I think only Sutton gets a mention.  Is it because they just gelled together and individually didn''t stand out? How many of those would be considered better players (albeit obviously in different positions) than Hoolahan? Is Hoolahan only a "legend" candidate because he appears as a more isolated example of skill and ability with some longevity than the others around him? I''d suggest that Hoolahan sticks out a little more at the moment because we have, and have had for a while, more limited players around him.

 

I agree with the point about connection with the fans. My own opinion is that "legend" is the highest bar reserved to a few who have all necessary ingredients, whatever your criteria. It elevates them above those who have other tags such as being loyal,  having good ability, played lots of games, got on well with fans, first on the teamsheet, great motivator/captain and so on. Hoolahan ticks some of these but although I accept some of the other points made about him I''m still not convinced that he has reached that Huckerby threshhold.

 

Great thread by the way and some excellent contributions.

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

[quote user="Splendid Rush"]When we got relegated from the Championship they payers were (incredibly) out in a club on Prince of Wales Rd. My mate was in the VIP lounge (I think he is friends with someone who works in a department store or some other highlight of Norwich society). Anyway, He was really drunk and slumped against a bar looking at the floor. Hoolahan walked past and asked him if he was ok. My mate replied that he wasn''t after watching Norwich go down to the third tier for the first time in his life and Hoolahan gave him a big hug, apologised profusely and vowed to put it right. I don''t think you''d get that from many modern day footballers.[/quote]Cheers for sharing this mate. Great little anecdote. [Y]

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="Davo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Davo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I guess there is no right or wrong in this debate. I tend to agree more with Hootenanny than others. For me Ron Davies and Iwan Roberts can''t possibly be in a hall of fame in front of Holty. Purple has them there. In this case surely we can all be right?

 

 

[/quote]

 

We are all right as this is a thread purely about opinion. There are no facts, stats or defined criteria what what one must achieve to become a "Club Legend".

 

Davo

[/quote]

 

I think we can all agree on one thing. Whatever the criteria might be they have to be a great deal more stringent than those for the club''s ludicrously bloated "Hall of Fame". Just from the As and Bs Neil Adams? Max Briggs?? Ollie Burton???

[/quote]

 

Can''t disagree with your point there. Although it does make me wonder if you had of got to C would you of mentioned Crook?

 

Davo

[/quote]

 

Ha! I certainly wouldn''t lump Crook in with those three as being totally unworthy. I should add, for those too young, that Ollie Burton was an excellent player. A tough but skilful midfielder. Like so many of that era he was sold on, to Newcastle, where he made nearly 200 apperances. If my list of "legends" was two dozen long instead of one dozen then Crook might well get in, particularly as a symbol of that Stringer passing side. And I do think, to qualify for this status, a player nomally has to have something more than just ability. A symbolism or an empathy with the supporters, or longevity, or something.

Tumbleweed, for example, mentions Culverhouse and Bowen. Now they are two unchallenged members of my NCFC all-time eleven, but neither seems quite to be a legend in the way that some lesser players.

[Davo 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 If my list of "legends" was two dozen long instead of one dozen then Crook might well get in, particularly as a symbol of that Stringer passing side. [/quote]

Here we have another factor that determines how people think of a legend. For me Crook is a legend. I only have a 1/2 dozen heroes and 3 of them were in our side against Bayern.  That same team was the one I was watching as a boy of 9 and 10 years old. After that are only 3 legends, one Eadie is more of a boy hood idol. Iwan and Hucks being the other two. You have been watching our side longer than I have so have seen more players who have made that grade of being a legend. I don''t think many will argue that during the late 90''s and the 00''s we didn''t really have too much to cheer about at times so it''s harder to pick out any legends from that time.

Davo

[Not Nigel 0]

Ian Crook is a Norwich legend in my eyes, he was a mainstay of a team which would have qualified for Europe four times if it wasn''t for Heysel.

Played for us for 11 years, stuck around while the boat sank, never asked to move, and I can''t find stats but must have played over 500 games including cup fixtures? He managed 418 in the league.

Our all time appearance record is Ron Ashman on 592, if anybody can find stats which show how close Crooky is to that record I''d be grateful.

Gunn and Bowen got nowhere near Crooks appearance record I know that.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]Ian Crook is a Norwich legend in my eyes, he was a mainstay of a team which would have qualified for Europe four times if it wasn''t for Heysel. Played for us for 11 years, stuck around while the boat sank, never asked to move, and I can''t find stats but must have played over 500 games including cup fixtures? He managed 418 in the league. Our all time appearance record is Ron Ashman on 592, if anybody can find stats which show how close Crooky is to that record I''d be grateful. Gunn and Bowen got nowhere near Crooks appearance record I know that.[/quote]

 

That 418 figure is in all competitions. The record is Keelan''s 673. Gunn finished on 477. Bowen got stuck on 399.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,431]

Just for the debate I''d like to throw in Bruce, Watson and Drinkell all from the same side....and of course Mr Paddon; if he was playing today would be the darling of the media with those flowing blonde locks...

[chicken 0]

The problem is that you have people measuring up their childhood heroes against the modern day equivalent. Much in the same way that most of them will prefer music from their youth to today''s stuff.

I was 8 in 1990 - although I supported them before that I can remember 1990 onwards more clearly.

At that time the playground favourites were many of those already mentioned. Goss, Crook etc - especially during/after the Europe run (when a certain Mr.Wright, teacher at Avenue Middle, arranged to have the match on a TV at the end of the school day so we could watch it together as a group).

My parents aren''t the greatest fans but I did go occasionally with friends.

I remember the mid 90''s better and the late 90''s even more clearly. After relegation there were not many stand out players that would suit a legend status. Neil Adams, Gunn and Roberts were both long serving and reliable if not fantastic players. Roberts is the pick of the bunch primarily because he was our goal scorer and for a long time kept us punching above relegation to the then Division 2. Without his goals who knows what would have happened.

You then had the Worthington era, and as much as people like to slate him - he was at least consistent in getting the team finishing top half of the table and often within touching distance, or of course, in the play-offs.

Again during that period Iwan was the ever-present talisman. He just kept getting us goals. I suppose for that era you can throw in Malky and Fleming as well. Although Malky was far from a skilled player he played with his heart on his sleeve and was a good old fashioned stopper. Fleming it would seem, appears to have passed a lot of people by. We had a very mean defense with him in it and again, like Iwan he was a constant.

Obviously we then signed Huckerby - who became a cult hero within six months for his playing style and then for telling his agent to go jump as he was staying with us, quite publicly too. Green was also in there.

Again Huckerby experienced highs and lows of promotion and then relegation, being the favourite to one despicable manager treating him like crud.

Then you had a few forgettable years. Hoolahan was signed as his replacement.

It''s hard. Out of those years I''d go with Iwan, Huckerby, Holt and Hoolahan.

I don''t go with this how they treat the fans stuff. I actually respect that he may want to keep himself away from the limelight. Paul Scholes is considered and Man U legend and he is famously avoidant of the cameras etc.