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can u sit down please

Hughton/Holt

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Im looking for answers.....If you inherit a centre forward that has scored nearly 100 goals in 3 seasons including 17 in the "best league in the world", why would you ask him to play a different role? Surely you would build your team around him and look at why he was so successful.If its not broke and all that jazz.......

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I struggle to understand why we didn''t build upon the philosophy built by Lambert instead of completely changing it for a more negative outdated style. I''m not completely unhappy with Hughton, the table says he''s been a success but there was so much good about what we had before and we should have found a manager to build upon it, just look at what Swansea did!

Like I said I''m not anti Hughton and provided we don''t get relegated should be given at least 3 seasons to see what he can do with ''his'' team, but nobody can argue that 90% of this season has been horrible to watch and certainly not worth the price the club asks you to pay to watch it!

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]I struggle to understand why we didn''t build upon the philosophy built by Lambert instead of completely changing it for a more negative outdated style. I''m not completely unhappy with Hughton, the table says he''s been a success but there was so much good about what we had before and we should have found a manager to build upon it, just look at what Swansea did!

Like I said I''m not anti Hughton and provided we don''t get relegated should be given at least 3 seasons to see what he can do with ''his'' team, but nobody can argue that 90% of this season has been horrible to watch and certainly not worth the price the club asks you to pay to watch it!
completely agree. Continuity is key. Just like Laudrup & Clark have done at there clubs.

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I think he started the season with just that plan CUSDP 7 games with just 3 points scuppered that and in the games we have started 442 with gh, grant has scored just one goal and we have won just one game which covers the first 7 games and the villa QF defeat amongst others - and that was because of Kei not grant.

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Lambert is manager of a bottom 3 side.

We are comfortably above the relegation zone.

We are above Newcastle, Sunderland, QPR etc

In terms of playing budget, are we under or over performing?

I''ve said this elsewhere, what on earth are people expecting? We are 1 point off tenth. I think that would be an achievement, it''s not exciting like hammering league one sides or a championship promotion push but it''s where we are. 38 games a season, we are trying to stay up. That''s where we are. Boring? Maybe. Be careful what you wish for..

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The biggest problem seems to be that people are just not getting enough excitement at Carrow Road or on the road, and football is entertainment first for fans.

It is business for the people who work at the club, entertainment for the punters. Football doesn''t hold a monopoly in the entertainment business, and when you factor price into the equation it doesn''t give much bang for your buck.

When you are paying a good thirty five quid per game as a season ticket holder for 1 hour 45 minutes of football (+beer, +food, +travel), and the games are dull every week, and the atmosphere is morgue like, people are going to start getting a bit frustrated and... well... bored.

It doesn''t help that stewards walk around telling everybody to sit down and suffer their boredom quietly.

You can still have a decent night out in the city for twenty five quid, or you can go to watch greyhounds at yarmouth and have a flutter, or to the casino in yarmouth.

Just be thankful that we aren''t a rugby city or a good cricketing county like Essex because we''d be seeing an exodus.

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[quote user="Warren Hill"]Lambert is manager of a bottom 3 side.

We are comfortably above the relegation zone.

We are above Newcastle, Sunderland, QPR etc

In terms of playing budget, are we under or over performing?

I''ve said this elsewhere, what on earth are people expecting? We are 1 point off tenth. I think that would be an achievement, it''s not exciting like hammering league one sides or a championship promotion push but it''s where we are. 38 games a season, we are trying to stay up. That''s where we are. Boring? Maybe. Be careful what you wish for..[/quote]

I haven''t mentioned lambert. I''m purely asking a question of why wouldn''t you play to your main mans strengths!

It''s a fact that CH has asked him to play a different role.

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Well yes but it''s not just about Holt is it? It''s about the whole team and players available. A case could be made to say that last year we played according to the team''s strengths and this year we''ve played according to the team''s strengths. Next year we will hopefully have different options so playing to the teams strengths could well be different again. The alternative is to continually build a side around Holt and although I''m one of his biggest fans I think that would be madness.

 

 

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]I think he started the season with just that plan CUSDP 7 games with just 3 points scuppered that and in the games we have started 442 with gh, grant has scored just one goal and we have won just one game which covers the first 7 games and the villa QF defeat amongst others - and that was because of Kei not grant.[/quote]We didn''t play much 4-4-2 under Lambert either really.  Lambert''s tactics were fairly flexible.

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I used 442 as a blanket for starting with 2 striker which is how PL he used grant - with a partner usually in front of a diamond.  When he went lone striker PLs preference was for morison.

 

Either way the ops question was why change a system which netted 15 golas for GH last season and he has an isolated 5 this - my response is we looked poor and continue to look poor as a team when we play two strikers which is how grant scored last year.

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Hughton was obviously not the right managerial signing to carry on Lambert''s style. But then, what is Lambert''s style doing for Villa? A team with some very talented attacking players (Bent, Benteke, Agbonlahor, Weimann, Ireland, N''Zogbia are all more than good enough for mid table). Maybe we did just get lucky last season? Normally I would argue against that, but if that style was going to work again, why didn''t we get Holloway? Why isn''t it working for Villa? Why didn''t it work for Blackpool?

I honestly think next season, once we''ve signed a couple more quality attacking players, and another one or two in defence so we don''t rely on just Bassong to hold it all together then we could very easily be playing some better football (not that its actually as bad as some people make out) and stay mid table all season.

Yes we could have built the team around Holt, but McNally didn''t even want to give him a 3 year contract, knew we''d have a decent amount of money to spend and presumably had a number of potential managers who could have built their side around Holt. I''m still very happy with Holt, but we are doing well enough this season, we are going to stay up and we do have upper management who know what they are doing.

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Its a tough watch at the moment, but we are where we are, both in the league and as a club.  In the league, as we are currently 8 points clear of the drop zone, then

surely CH is doing the necessary.  He is making us stronger as a unit

and more able to contain and compete with the whole league.   Imo that

is the future, because if we are to emulate Everton and to a certain

extent Fulham, we have to be able to compete against all the clubs in

the division.      As a club we are trying to consolidate and build a run of seasons in the top league and thereby increase the wealth of the club and the kind of players it can afford.   We have to hang in there and  see this transition through.   If Hughton can''t get the midfield/attack to function better next season then will be the time to question him.   For the moment Hughton is the man.   As for  Holt, he is having to fit in with all this and he works his socks off in the cause.  He is no problem either.

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We are playing to our strengths, relative to the changed circumstances we now have.

To compare last season to this is fallacious. Let us use the metaphor of a fight outside a nightclub. Two of us note a gang of eight loitering, they are not especially focusing on us, but are feared by others. We are fearless and keen to make an impression on girls and our peers. We spring a surprise and ferocious attack on the group. We have some success and come away relatively unharmed having inflicted some notable damage due to our audacity. All terribly exciting and a famous success.

This is a promoted side, habitually used to winning, with low expectations and little to lose. The general who conceived the plan is a genius.

In reality, given the numbers involved, and the relative strengths of the group, this was the only viable strategy.

For oppressed onlookers, this is Frey, exciting and attractive. A wonderful break from the norm.

The following Friday the two return again to the same spot. Does the strategy work again?

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[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]The way some people go on you''d think we were cut adrift at the bottom and not 1 point off 10th![/quote]

I''m not meaning to come over like that but that''s a typical response from people when challenges about our strengths.

The other is go support another team.

I''m genuinely interested in what people say re strengths

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[quote user="can u sit down please"]What are our strengths?[/quote]

It''s simple.   Our strength is  in the players we have working their hardest to play the manager wants them to play.   If we lose that total effort, we would be down amongst the clubs at the bottom.    In short, it''s down to the respect the players have for the manager and their effort in trying to play how he wants.

They''re not doing so bad.

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As per the nightclub analogy, our strengths were:

Element of surprise

Momentum

Winning mentality

Fearlessness (born of low expectations and little to lose)

This evangelical fervour was perceived due to the above, rather than real. The messianic Lambert traded on this successfully for one year. Then left when the odds were against the strategy working twice.

Our "real" strengths were limited to the creativity of Hoolahan, the talismanic quality and forceful presence of holt and the defiance of Ruddy. Nearly every other club had better resources on paper and financially.

Hughton is not an evangelist. He grasped the realistic nettle and added set piece quality from and reinforced the whole defense with bassong, turner, garrido under the not unreasonable assessment that - a la the nightclub analogy - we were not going to survive using the outscoring the opposition methods of the surprise element year one.

Whilst this year two strategy is not - and could never be - as exciting as the year one fearless hung ho nightclub attack (or the joyful ascent through the leagues against inferior opposition), it is being proved as a strategy that achieves the objective of stating in the league. This was the one and only objective for this year.

We are staying up despite playing teams better than us on paper and far richer in terms of access to finance.

This is a practical achievement that Lambert instinctively felt was beyond the club.

To most neutral observers in football it us an excellent achievement.

In time - with greater resources and better players - Hughton and the club will add quality attackers and gradually expand the playing style and our "strengths".

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="can u sit down please"]What are our strengths?[/quote]

 

This season or last season?

 

 

[/quote]

Well, this season it''s a solid defence when they are all fit with a defensive screen based on two good defensive midfielders. There are four attacking players who try to interchange and work hard as the first line of defence.

That it is our strength is indicated by two facts. The number of clean sheets and the number of 1-0 wins. It is not accidental. Tettey said when he was signed that Hughton bought him to pay in a 4231 formation as one of the two. So it has been.

It is''nt perfect as results indicate not least because we don''t have the strength in depth. But, it is our strength this season at least.

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You can''t build a team around one striker, the clue is in the word team. If we had two or three top quality strikers, then I have no doubt the manager would have adopted a different style of play, at home at least, but we have not had the quality up front to allow him to do that. Basically we had Holty and if he gets a knock or loss of form there''s very little to fall back on. I am hoping that Kamara will pick up from where he left off against Everton and will play up from with Holty on Saturday.

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We are undoubtedly more solid this season - Hugton''s shrewd signing''s of Bassong and Turner and Tettey have helped create a rigid spine down the team.

In solidifying us, however, we have lost the gung-ho ''going for it'' Lambert approach.

What this does is enable us to beat teams like Man Utd 1-0 at home when we get the lead and defend on it. What it does mean, however, if we go behind we struggle to get back into it. The last 15 minutes of our games always worries me massively as we sit deeper and deeper.

All in all though, clear of the relegation zone, and one point of 10th. Hughton and the lads are doing a fine job, last season is history.

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Really? Lambert completely reconstructed the team to accommodate Wes Hoolahan.

The irony is that we have probably gone with 4-5-1 for the same purpose, to accommodate Wes, and if we went to 4-4-2 and started leaving out Hoolahan then people would start saying "we need to play Wes".

What we probably ultimately need is for somebody special like this Van DutchBloke to come in and completely rework the fans way of thinking. At the moment we see Wes and Holt as so important because we haven''t improved on them, we''ve just added Snodgrass to the mix.

You can build a team around one player, perhaps the bigger question is whether we can bring somebody in who is more worthy of building a team around. That bloke from Portugal looks a bit like a Torres, and Liverpool were set up for three years to feed Torres goals, and now they are set up to feed Suarez goals.

So you 100% can build your system around a top striker, the question is whether we could do that with Holt without sacrificing Hoolahan, and the answer is probably no.

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Good posts. That''s pretty much how I see it. Last season our best defender was a fullback on loan from Spurs. After Naughton it was probably a fullback at centreback in Russell Martin. Our first choice centreback was undoubtedly Ward who Lambert always seemed to play when fit. The other centrbacks were Ayala, Whitbread, Bennett (who it looked like we intended to build our defence around) and Barnett. Left fullback was Drury or Tierney or at times Naughton on the wrong side. They are all at best championship options and Hughton spent big money immediately bringing in Bassong and Turner, two experienced premier league defenders. He also brought in Garrido and Whittaker two experienced premier league fullbacks. The midfield has also been strengthened both defensively and offensively. But until the January window we hadn''t improved the forwards who were our biggest strength last season. The jury is still out on Becchio and Kamara but the verdict is still in about Holt and Hoolahan. For me they both have to start to give us the best attacking options.

 

 

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The forward options are last to be revised because in order to truly move them forward from the Holt-Hoolahan axis status quo, significant finances are required.

Additionally, even having the finance is not necessarily enough to attract the requisite quality to Norwich.

We have to make less strategic / financial mistakes than other clubs in order to progress, which I suspect makes comparatively significant investment in the forward line more likely.

The club is ending this message with the pursuit of hooper and - notably - Van Wolfswinkel.

By staying up and - if you so wish to view it - enduring a pragmatic playing approach, We will be in a position where such a superior attacking option will not be an isolated gem, but rather an effective complement to the successful building work already undertaken.

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[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]The forward options are last to be revised because in order to truly move them forward from the Holt-Hoolahan axis status quo, significant finances are required. Additionally, even having the finance is not necessarily enough to attract the requisite quality to Norwich. We have to make less strategic / financial mistakes than other clubs in order to progress, which I suspect makes comparatively significant investment in the forward line more likely. The club is ending this message with the pursuit of hooper and - notably - Van Wolfswinkel. By staying up and - if you so wish to view it - enduring a pragmatic playing approach, We will be in a position where such a superior attacking option will not be an isolated gem, but rather an effective complement to the successful building work already undertaken.[/quote]

 

That is the point that''s constantly ignored every transfer window. We have to hope that we can uncover a gem from somewhere as Swansea did with Michu. But these are few and far between.

 

Nobody who I would want to run our football club would gamble with it''s future. And if that''s little old Norwich mentality then that''s me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Indications from the club are that they will invest in significant, proven attacking options as soon as practically possible.

"Finding a Michu", whilst hugely welcome, is not a calculable option. Norwich are not in the position of bring able to spend a few (low) millions on possible attacking gem, rather they are waiting for the "investment purchase" as the game-changer of the rebuilding process started following the hung-ho year one survival. Becchio is a safethy net cover for Holt and Kamara is an (excellent) cheap gamble.

Rather than being on the lookout for a "cheap" (who fail 5 times out of 10), we will invest in relatively expensive proven quality, which - upon staying up - will be a conversely low-risk strategy as it is providing exactly what we require.

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Just to play ''Devil''s advocate'' could you handle playing like Stoke very week for guaranteed Premier league status rather than ''Lambert''s gung ho style football with all the risk it entails ? I could not stomach it personally !

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