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hogesar

Unwarranted David Fox criticism

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Only got round to posting this now, but since the Luton game, however from Canary Call to this forum to others - there has been a fair amount of criticism aimed towards the team - quite a bit at Fox.I think it''s completely unfounded. What''s his biggest asset? His passing ability, both in terms of accuracy and range. For him to be effective, we need to have more than 2 completely fucking static strikers for 60 minutes of the game. There was very little movement. I''m a big Fox fan so spent alot of the game watching him, and the amount of times he had the ball and made time for himself to look around only to see literally no movement from the attackers or midfielders was frightening.He''s not going to have the energy or tenacity of Tettey or Johnson but he won his fair share of tackles and was the only person who was able to retain possession even with the crap surrounding him.Feel he deserves a chance in a league game this season.

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I''m not particularly keen on criticising our players, but i thought Fox was woeful on Saturday (he wasn''t the only one of course).

Every pass he made in the first half was either sideways or backwards and in the second half when he finally tried to pass it forward he hardly ever succeeded.

As was graphically highlighted by Gordon Strachan on the ITV highlights - Fox was the Norwich player who was 8 yards ahead of the Luton player as the move for their goal started, but 11 yards behind him when the move finished.

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I don''t believe any of the players who were brought in for Saturday''s game did anything to claim a first team place. Those in possession of the shirts at Liverpool were under pressure before the Luton game. But having seen that would you replace Johnson or Tettey with Fox or Howson? And would you replace Snodgrass or Pilkington with Bennett? They may still get another opportunity but they certainly didn''t grasp this one.

 

 

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[quote user="Thirsty Lizard"]

Every pass he made in the first half was either sideways or backwards and in the second half when he finally tried to pass it forward he hardly ever succeeded. [/quote]This pretty much backs up my point. He looked up every time to pass forwards but wasn''t willing to play a pointless hoof like the rest of the team were.In the second half we obviously had to force the issue and with no clever movement in and around him he was forced into playing like the rest of our team and booting it up and hoping for the best.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I don''t believe any of the players who were brought in for Saturday''s game did anything to claim a first team place. Those in possession of the shirts at Liverpool were under pressure before the Luton game. But having seen that would you replace Johnson or Tettey with Fox or Howson? And would you replace Snodgrass or Pilkington with Bennett? They may still get another opportunity but they certainly didn''t grasp this one.

 [/quote]

Thing is Nutty, it''s hard for an individual to stake a claim, especially in a CM position, when the rest of the team are dreadful. Especially with Fox''s style. If it was Johnson staking a claim he could run about and put in some hard challenges, not actually achieve anything but make it look like he was playing well. Fox, as i''ve said, is there to pass the ball. He is miles ahead of any of our other CM''s when it comes to passing the ball. When we''re being overran in midfield by a non-league outfit, he isn''t going to stand out and shine. He needs a little bit of movement from those around him, as ik eep stressing.

I also think players unfortunately need more than one shock game in the cup to show their capabilities, but that''s just my opinion.

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I get your point Hoggy. But to play to our strengths with Snodgrass, Pilkington and Hoolahan we need the midfiled engine room driving us forward to get our clever players higher up the pitch. I agree that Howson was more disappointing than Fox in this regard but neither put down a marker for me.

 

 

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He is a very nice passer of the ball but not a lot else.

 

He can''t run and so it is easy for teams to go past and him and play around him but another problem was shown up by Luton on Saturday. They sat deep with two banks of four and therefore limited the space available for Fox to exploit with his passing and because he can''t really carry the ball forward it was pretty easy for them to defend against.

 

I''d have subbed him off at halftime and brought Tettey on. We needed to give them something different to think about. They knew exactly what to expect with Fox in the team and were well set up to deal with it.

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[quote user="GJP"]

He is a very nice passer of the ball but not a lot else.

 

He can''t run and so it is easy for teams to go past and him and play around him but another problem was shown up by Luton on Saturday. They sat deep with two banks of four and therefore limited the space available for Fox to exploit with his passing and because he can''t really carry the ball forward it was pretty easy for them to defend against.

 

I''d have subbed him off at halftime and brought Tettey on. We needed to give them something different to think about. They knew exactly what to expect with Fox in the team and were well set up to deal with it.

[/quote]I''d agree to an extent but that''s why i feel Tettey alongside him would work. You''re right he doesn''t tend to carry the ball and Nutty''s also right regarding needing the midfields to drive on. The problem was against Luton this was Howson''s job and half the time he sat behind Fox. Think i saw Fox in the opposition penalty box making a run once, Howson was still holding back. Maybe letting Tettey push forwards alongside Fox would work.

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That just about sums it up for me GJP.

I think the main reason he has such a good reputation (with some of our fans) for passing is that he is extremely conservative. Yes, you do need to keep retention, but you also have to make things happen.

You can blame the rest of the team for lack of movement/getting marked out of the game, but that doesn''t make him any more effective. For me, a lot of his passing just slows things down; Actually this seems to have been a disease spreading throughout the team lately.

That''s why I think Tettey is a much better player. He will try & drive forward, tackle block, make riskier passes yes - but the last figure I saw was 82% completion rate (as against Johnson''s 52%?)

which is still extremely good.

I think Fox looks good when everything''s going right. We need players who can make things happen.

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Fox is quality.

If he had the movement of snoddy, Hoolahan and a decent fwd to aim for he would pick passes all day.

As hog has said, sometimes sideways and backwards are your only options. If Barca keep the ball people purr....if we or fox does it, it''s boring.

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Just to add, he''s our version of carrick.

Look how important he is to united. Neither players split defences but both retain possession (something tettey and johnson can''t do) and keep us ticking over.

Then it''s up to Pilks snoddy and Wes to open up the defences.

Players like fox are often unappreciated.

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Both Hoggy and Danny make good points about Fox. But the deal for me is the higher up the pitch you can get the ball to Wes. Snoddy and Pilks the more dangerous they are. This is why we are more effective with Holty than Morison or Jackson because neither of those two are particularly good with their back to goal which would allow the three musketeers to get further forward. I think the system we play with the two wide players cutting inside is more suited to having Johnson and Tettey in the engine room. Fox disappointed me on Saturday. Even conidering Hoggy and Danny''s points because he did have Holt for the second half. But the biggest disappointment was Hughton. If he only wanted to play Holt for half a game surely that should have been the first half.

 

 

 

 

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Fox will only ever be as good as the movement of players in front of him and on saturday they all looked like someone had glued them to the spot. He didnt have a good game on saturday but like nearly all of the players out there has had good games in the past, typical Norwich City forum to have an over reaction with posts like they all have to be sold or suddenly they arnt good enough to back up. Baby thrown out with the bath water comes to mind, especially when you look at other results and the calibre of player on show.

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the key point well made by young hoggie is the lack of movement, not just from the strikers but the link up midfielders. he was spot on that there was no movement. That did not change even with holt on and has been a feature of our last 8 games In that my daughter was spot on when she said it was like watching our relegation sides - no one wanted the ball so instead of attacking space (as luton did for their winner) we hid behind defenders making it difficult for ourselves.

and that is something fox never hid from - he did make himself available but too often there was no out ball.

In balance despite his time on the ball he failed to impose himself on the game against non league.

He was markedly better than howson on the day (strachan criticised fox for failing to track the run, but our other midfielder was also absent from view) and is a viable alternative to BJ - I dread to think what he would have done with that amount of possession.

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Some interesting points in the last few posts - it did make me wonder how Fox would perform in a team like ManU; I think it''s quite possible he would do well in a Carrick role (although I also think other teams might target his physical weakness).

But, of course, we''re not ManU & we need to fight for every ball. So, in the present context, I don''t think he''s the right player for us.

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[quote user="hogesar"]Only got round to posting this now, but since the Luton game, however from Canary Call to this forum to others - there has been a fair amount of criticism aimed towards the team - quite a bit at Fox.I think it''s completely unfounded. What''s his biggest asset? His passing ability, both in terms of accuracy and range. For him to be effective, we need to have more than 2 completely fucking static strikers for 60 minutes of the game. There was very little movement. I''m a big Fox fan so spent alot of the game watching him, and the amount of times he had the ball and made time for himself to look around only to see literally no movement from the attackers or midfielders was frightening.He''s not going to have the energy or tenacity of Tettey or Johnson but he won his fair share of tackles and was the only person who was able to retain possession even with the crap surrounding him.Feel he deserves a chance in a league game this season.[/quote]He doesn''t shoot... therefore he never scores (okay, he has scored once in four years over three divisions), he doesn''t track back, he NEVER puts a challenge in, he doesn''t run with the ball, 90% of his passes are short and backwards/sideways. His delivery is okay, but i saw some poor attempts at passes against Luton.I have criticised as being Fox''s biggest critic, but i really don''t get the love in, never have. As previously said on many occasion, that''s now two different managers with two different styles who have not seen him as a premiership player, nuff said!

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I dont see ..and have never seen anything to convince me that david fox is anymore than a decent  League one player ,, saturday did nothing to change my  mind. To compare him with Carrick ..or even Barcelona players ... deluded is all that now comes to mind !

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Which two different managers would that be Canaries Utd? David Fox has played nearly half his league games for Norwich in the Premier League. Both you and that porker who needs two seats don''t seem to have mastered the art of debate[:O]

 

I think Ron''s point about Manchester Utd is a good one. As much as we''d like to play them off the park our only realistic chance of success at this stage is probably to stop their players doing exactly that to us. We are still at a very early stage of our premier league developement.

 

 

 

 

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It was the Swansea game in the championship were I saw his terrible positioning and the fact that he cannot react.

He is tidy in possession, but I would not say he is that player for us anymore. Some players fall back as we move on. Fox is that for me.

We needed a premiership style player in the midfield and fortunately we got tettey and we will look to improve this position as well.

Fox can pass, I don''t rate his distribution... Nothing with pace, dip etc. it is a flights ball, he is accurate and ball with his feet is ok. But even in tettey''s first game (cup game) fox played alongside him and just floated around the centre circle.

I just want our club to move forward, fox is a squad player at most. I do. Not expect him to sign a new contract after his years extension, is that right?

Fox would not make a top 8 championship first team.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Which two different managers would that be Canaries Utd? David Fox has played nearly half his league games for Norwich in the Premier League. Both you and that porker who needs two seats don''t seem to have mastered the art of debate[:O]

 

I think Ron''s point about Manchester Utd is a good one. As much as we''d like to play them off the park our only realistic chance of success at this stage is probably to stop their players doing exactly that to us. We are still at a very early stage of our premier league developement.

 

 

 

 

[/quote]Brilliant NN, who is the ''Porker'' out of curiosity? Either your own debating skills are not up to standard or you are a little dim!? Having read many of your previous posts i know you are not the latter, so i think you are asking the question wanting me to account for the fact he played many games under Lambert. But, and yes i''m well aware he was voted 3rd (god knows how) POTS last year, but he was not an ever present and as the season wore on Lambert came to realise he wasn''t cutting the Norfolk mustard! I stand by my evaluation of Fox for all the reasons i have previously mentioned on many occasion.

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[quote user="Canaries Utd"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Which two different managers would that be Canaries Utd? David Fox has played nearly half his league games for Norwich in the Premier League. Both you and that porker who needs two seats don''t seem to have mastered the art of debate[:O]

 

I think Ron''s point about Manchester Utd is a good one. As much as we''d like to play them off the park our only realistic chance of success at this stage is probably to stop their players doing exactly that to us. We are still at a very early stage of our premier league developement.

 

 

 

 

[/quote]Brilliant NN, who is the ''Porker'' out of curiosity? Either your own debating skills are not up to standard or you are a little dim!? Having read many of your previous posts i know you are not the latter, so i think you are asking the question wanting me to account for the fact he played many games under Lambert. But, and yes i''m well aware he was voted 3rd (god knows how) POTS last year, but he was not an ever present and as the season wore on Lambert came to realise he wasn''t cutting the Norfolk mustard!

I stand by my evaluation of Fox for all the reasons i have previously mentioned on many occasion.
[/quote]

 

My point was that you made up a stat to put across your point of view and the porker just called people deluded without even attempting to debate his point of view. This had been a very good thread.

 

David Fox would not be my choice to start for Norwich in the Premier League for the reasons I have given. But I''m not so arrogant as to dismiss those who have put forward a different point of view very well.

 

 

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This was a reminder that cup games are just a waste of time now for our kind of club.    Saturday was just a run out for the squad players, in effect.

If you look at the team for MK Dons where we lost 4-0 - it was the same story -  the same shortfall from the same players.  Jackson, Fox, Surman, Rudd and R.Martin.   Wilbo for Kane - two fringe players, both not found their feet at that stage.   I''m not suggesting these players are responsible as the whole team was woeful - they made Luton and MKDons look a class above us.    But it does beg the question - what''s the point of it?  

The individual merits of Fox we know about.   Jackson too.   But we are being sold short at these kind of games.   Highly motivated clubs going up against a second string of squad players who are not a team as such.   I like Fox as a player - but he has no chance of shining - no more than any other player put in that situation.      It''s not Hughton I blame - all (most) managers do it.     Get in the premier league ( and to a lesser extent the Championship) and it is ok to put out a more or less untried selection of squad players and "hope" they win.  

Like I said - a waste of time money and effort - particularly by the fans.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]the key point well made by young hoggie is the lack of movement, not just from the strikers but the link up midfielders. he was spot on that there was no movement. That did not change even with holt on and has been a feature of our last 8 games In that my daughter was spot on when she said it was like watching our relegation sides - no one wanted the ball so instead of attacking space (as luton did for their winner) we hid behind defenders making it difficult for ourselves.

and that is something fox never hid from - he did make himself available but too often there was no out ball.

In balance despite his time on the ball he failed to impose himself on the game against non league.

He was markedly better than howson on the day (strachan criticised fox for failing to track the run, but our other midfielder was also absent from view) and is a viable alternative to BJ - I dread to think what he would have done with that amount of possession.[/quote]Yep, i''ll agree he didn''t control the midfield however with a rusty Surman, an obselite Howson and equally ineffective Bennett it was going to be hard.P.S - Happy Im''s still yella & green!

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[quote user="Canaries Utd"][quote user="hogesar"]Only got round to posting this now, but since the Luton game, however from Canary Call to this forum to others - there has been a fair amount of criticism aimed towards the team - quite a bit at Fox.I think it''s completely unfounded. What''s his biggest asset? His passing ability, both in terms of accuracy and range. For him to be effective, we need to have more than 2 completely fucking static strikers for 60 minutes of the game. There was very little movement. I''m a big Fox fan so spent alot of the game watching him, and the amount of times he had the ball and made time for himself to look around only to see literally no movement from the attackers or midfielders was frightening.He''s not going to have the energy or tenacity of Tettey or Johnson but he won his fair share of tackles and was the only person who was able to retain possession even with the crap surrounding him.Feel he deserves a chance in a league game this season.[/quote]He doesn''t shoot... therefore he never scores (okay, he has scored once in four years over three divisions), he doesn''t track back, he NEVER puts a challenge in, he doesn''t run with the ball, 90% of his passes are short and backwards/sideways. His delivery is okay, but i saw some poor attempts at passes against Luton.I have criticised as being Fox''s biggest critic, but i really don''t get the love in, never have. As previously said on many occasion, that''s now two different managers with two different styles who have not seen him as a premiership player, nuff said! [/quote]1) Is scoring a requirement for a midfielder in his role? If so we need to get rid of all our Centre Mid''s, as very few have scored more than a couple of goals.2) I''ll agree he isn''t much of a forward-running midfielder but as others have said neither is Carrick. His passing is dependant upon the players around him, as i already explained. That is only my opinion of course, but i''ve seen little evidence to suggest to the contrary.3) I''m not sure where this `love in` exists? Surely this thread is a fantastic example of just how wrong you are? He achieved 3rd in POTS awards and i heard no complaints at the time.4) Lambert was a big Fox fan. Hence, bringing him to the club, and hence making lot''s of appearances in midfield last season!

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Pilkington, tettey, Johnson, snoddy have nothing to worry about from players already at the club. Think re-inforcements in the summer are needed as I am sure a player or two moves on.

We need to move forward as a club and so far we have very little alternatives in our current squad.

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[quote user="barclay seats 4849 "]I dont see ..and have never seen anything to convince me that david fox is anymore than a decent  League one player ,, saturday did nothing to change my  mind. To compare him with Carrick ..or even Barcelona players ... deluded is all that now comes to mind ![/quote]League One? Well he had 9 league assists in the Championship. That would be more than Hoolahan, Surman, Jackson, Lansbury..Which suggests, perhaps, that the delusion is your end? [:)]

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[quote user="smooth"]

Fox would not make a top 8 championship first team.[/quote]He was more than good enough for us to finish in the top two.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Canaries Utd"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Which two different managers would that be Canaries Utd? David Fox has played nearly half his league games for Norwich in the Premier League. Both you and that porker who needs two seats don''t seem to have mastered the art of debate[:O]

 

I think Ron''s point about Manchester Utd is a good one. As much as we''d like to play them off the park our only realistic chance of success at this stage is probably to stop their players doing exactly that to us. We are still at a very early stage of our premier league developement.

[/quote]Brilliant NN, who is the ''Porker'' out of curiosity? Either your own debating skills are not up to standard or you are a little dim!? Having read many of your previous posts i know you are not the latter, so i think you are asking the question wanting me to account for the fact he played many games under Lambert. But, and yes i''m well aware he was voted 3rd (god knows how) POTS last year, but he was not an ever present and as the season wore on Lambert came to realise he wasn''t cutting the Norfolk mustard! I stand by my evaluation of Fox for all the reasons i have previously mentioned on many occasion. [/quote]

My point was that you made up a stat to put across your point of view and the porker just called people deluded without even attempting to debate his point of view. This had been a very good thread.

David Fox would not be my choice to start for Norwich in the Premier League for the reasons I have given. But I''m not so arrogant as to dismiss those who have put forward a different point of view very well.

[/quote]Thanks Nutty, i''ve been enjoying what has actually been a fairly good debate!Re the part i''ve highlighted in bold - i fully understand that. Fox would be an ideal player if we were already playing well, brimming with confidence. But when that was happening Johnson and Tettey were vital - so it''s lose lose in a way for him. I agree that in general when you''re playing badly he''s almost like a `luxury` player. However thing''s are not going to plan at the moment and the tenacity and endeavour in the center of the park has been there, but without significant retaining of the possession.I think he''s a very viable alternative - I wouldn''t necessarily say start him against Spurs but i certainly feel against the lesser opposition where the isn''t so much pace and agility in the center of the park he deserves a go.

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