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Buncey

Poor football once again

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I had a little rant and rave yesterday regarding the result then realised it wasent the result that angers me it was the standard of play,

Last three seasons I haven''t been able to criticise the players performance as we have always looked hungry and up for any team no matter what the score is or what time is remaining on the clock.

This season however I feel we have bought in better standard of players than that of the previous few seasons yet our standard if play has gotten worse!

We seem to be lacking the very basics, can''t make simple passes, a lot of the players first touches have been shocking as well, when it comes to going forward I have noticed a lot more hoof ball up to the forward men/man.

I don''t mind us sitting back and absorbing pressure as we had done this many times last season however when we win the ball back their is a very large lack in urgency for a counter attack their is very little pressing when don''t have the ball either.

Take the Tottenham game as an example, in the first half we didn''t lack any of these things in fact it was the complete opposite, we pressed when off the ball and when we did win the ball back the urgency for a counter attack was plane to see and we go in to half time with the lead. Second half we don''t do any of that and setback not pressing the opposition and we never looked like being able to hold on or try and score a second.

I don''t know why this has happened but it really is staring to worry and frustrate me if we don''t rectify these points we shall be dragged in to a very tough relegation battle.

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Clint, I agree with lots of what you say. CH substitution timings baffle me a bit too...as I said I don''t think he has a very high opinion of the players not making the starting eleven so tries to squeeze as much as he can from them. I would have liked to have seen becchio on earlier yesterday as soon as Holty was tired.

I honestly believe CH has done a pretty good job of strengthening the squad and the team is now playing to this shape. Re Fox I loved the guy and was one of those clamouring for his selection as our best ball player... Then he played and did very little so what the hell do I know??

I really do rate Hughton and I think we will stay up confortably. That being so I think the time to judge will be next season. But to suggest as some on here have that be is another Roeder seems to me to be ludicrous.

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[quote user="Clint"]Hughton has a solid and reasonably effective (but dull) plan A but is possibly the least savvy and tactically limited manager I''ve ever seen at Norwich.[/quote]Really?  Less savvy and more limited than Grant?  Gunn?  Roeder?  Megson?  Hamilton?Very harsh.

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[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Clint"]
Hughton has a solid and reasonably effective (but dull) plan A but is possibly the least savvy and tactically limited manager I''ve ever seen at Norwich.
[/quote]

Really?  Less savvy and more limited than Grant?  Gunn?  Roeder?  Megson?  Hamilton?

Very harsh.

[/quote]

 

Harsh is one way of looking at it I guess. I''d go much further and say it''s one of the most idiotic comments I''d ever read on here. And that''s some award! It''s one thing for people to say they don''t enjoy the games so much under Hughton. I don''t really agree but can understand that point of view. But this? Come on! He''s had us mid-table prem for virtually the whole of the season. He has improved us by a huge amount when we don''t have the ball. He has out thought the likes of Fergurson and Wenger in specific games and has been out thought by others. I would say he is probably one of the most tactically savvy managers I''ve seen here.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Clint"]Hughton has a solid and reasonably effective (but dull) plan A but is possibly the least savvy and tactically limited manager I''ve ever seen at Norwich.[/quote]Really?  Less savvy and more limited than Grant?  Gunn?  Roeder?  Megson?  Hamilton?Very harsh.[/quote]

 

Harsh is one way of looking at it I guess. I''d go much further and say it''s one of the most idiotic comments I''d ever read on here. And that''s some award! It''s one thing for people to say they don''t enjoy the games so much under Hughton. I don''t really agree but can understand that point of view. But this? Come on! He''s had us mid-table prem for virtually the whole of the season. He has improved us by a huge amount when we don''t have the ball. He has out thought the likes of Fergurson and Wenger in specific games and has been out thought by others. I would say he is probably one of the most tactically savvy managers I''ve seen here.

 

 

[/quote]I thought I''d just read the most idiotic comment ever, on the Time to change the Captain thread but you are right Nigel, this one pushes it close.Surely it''s time for the kids to be in bed?

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Watching the game on Sky I thought it was a reasonably entertaining game and we deserved our point. However I do agree that our passing and touch in the second half was poor. However we are showing signs of coming out of the poor run we have had and as results improv so does the perception of the quality of our play.

I can recall some really dire and dour football under Ron Saunders in the season we were relegated and he resigned and I say that as someone who regards him as one of the best City managers in my 50+ years of following the club.

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Firstly, my comments were made mid-Sunday afternoon, if your kids are in bed at that time, then I would question your parenting methods.Secondly, I see that you have taken that line in isolation - very clever.  Although omitting the fact that also in the same sentence, I fully admit that Hughton has a reasonably solid and successful Plan A.  This on its own, puts him ahead of some of the ex-managers names metioned, who couldn''t even master that.  He has undoubtedly achieved some success with this and I expect him to continue to do so.However, my point is purely in relation to his tactical nous and was in  response to Killies post - which I might add (just like PurpleCanary did) he responded in an adult like fashion and agreed with most of my points made.  Which certain posters have chosen to ignore.Now, as you are all so clever, perhaps you could give me an example of a league match in which Hughton has changed the dynamics of the match by use of a change of personel or system?  As I mentioned, we''ve not come back from behind to win a league match this season and have not looked like doing so IMHO.  Surely a manager as tactically savvy as Hughton would have done so at some point this season?As for out-thinking Fergie and Wenger, now that is surely laughable.  He has played more-or-less the same 11 players in the same system in every match this season.  As such, we played in exactly the same way against Man U and Arsenal as we did against QPR, Reading, Newcastle, West Ham, Villa et al.  We just played better against the first two.  Hardly tactical genius is it?  He certainly didn''t out-think anyone.   I look forward to hearing about all of these comebacks and game changing decisions that Hughton has masterminded this season.....

 

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I won''t disagree that CH hasn''t made any gamechanging substitutions or tactical surprises that I can remember offhand Clint. But would you accept that just maybe that is because he doesnt think he has the personnel to change a game? As I mentioned before I was desperately keen to see Fox in the side...then came Luton.

One of the ways PL used to be able to change shape was to keep Hoolahoop on the bench and bring him on with a change of formation, but if CH was to leave Wes out then I suspect all hell might just break loose on here! We seem to be settled into a midfield formation that has Jonno and Tettey as the ballwinners and Wes as the lone creative force...playing Holty up front on his own really can only work if the midfielders are pacey enough to get up beyond him, but that aint really happening...

But I do maintain that I like the players CH has brought to us, and I will hope for more of the same quality of signing for the forward reaches of the team next seson.

Do you think Becchio and Holt might start up front together on Sat? And if they do, who gets sacrificed in midfield...Johnson?

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I suppose the only arguement to that is that it must be difficult to come in completely from the cold (like Fox did) and be up to speed.  These guys are getting literally no game time as they are never brought on due to the lack of subs we seem to use.I hope Becchio starts on Sat as a sign of intent.  Pilks is probably going to be injured so it looks like we could have an enforced change of personel anyway.  Obviously, Becchio for Pilks would require some tweaking in our preferred system!

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[quote user="Clint"]Firstly, my comments were made mid-Sunday afternoon, if your kids are in bed at that time, then I would question your parenting methods.Secondly, I see that you have taken that line in isolation - very clever.  Although omitting the fact that also in the same sentence, I fully admit that Hughton has a reasonably solid and successful Plan A.  This on its own, puts him ahead of some of the ex-managers names metioned, who couldn''t even master that.  He has undoubtedly achieved some success with this and I expect him to continue to do so.[/quote]

Well, let''s take your whole post then:[quote user="Clint"]Killiecanary, if we stay up this season (which I

think we will) it is certainly nothing to do with Hughton''s tactical

nous!
I could set-up a team and say to them ''go out and defend

for your lives lads'' which is basically our only tactic.  Yesterday was a

decent point in my book but I felt we were very lucky to get it.As

the game went on, we sat deeper and deeper and yet again Hughton had no

idea what changes to make to influence the game.  At one point in the

2nd half, QPR were completely out playing us and we were simply playing

hoof ball to no-one because everyone was back defending. A manager with

any kind of tactical nous would be able to identify this and change the

personnel and/or tactics accordingly. It was exactly the same against

Spurs when Tettey and Johnson spent most of the 2nd half camped just

outside of our box (possibly due to a bit of tiredness).  Inevitably,

due to the better players available, Spurs scored whereas QPR didn''t

(although we really have Bunn to thank for that, not Hughton).Clearly

in both games, changes were needed (even if it simply to get fresh legs

on) but Hughton had no idea what to do.  This is reminiscent of our

entire season.  Never have we gone behind in a league game and come back

to win or even looked like it.Hughton has a solid and

reasonably effective (but dull) plan A but is possibly the least savvy

and tactically limited manager I''ve ever seen at Norwich.

[/quote]Point 1 - if we stay up it''s nothing to do with tactics.  Surely setting up the team system and instructions on how they will play IS tactics, isn''t it?  The minute someone says "if we stay up it''s got nothing to do with the manager" is the minute everyone with half a brain or more realises they are not about to hear a fair and reasoned reflection of reality.  I bet if we were in the bottom three it would have everything to do with the manager....Point 2 - "I could set-up a team and say to them ''go out and defend

for your lives lads'' which is basically our only tactic."  So how have we won games this season?  It took one hell of a save to deny Hoolahan a goal before QPR''s penalty was given, lest we forget.  Counter-attacking football away from home is hardly defending for their lives.Point 3 - " yet again Hughton had no

idea what changes to make to influence the game" - or does he lack the players who could make a meaningful change?  What would you have done differently?Point 4 - we successfully got a point and clean sheet away at QPR, this is not tactical failure.Point 5 - It was exactly the same against

Spurs when Tettey and Johnson spent most of the 2nd half camped just

outside of our box (possibly due to a bit of tiredness)Point 6 - "Clearly

in both games, changes were needed (even if it simply to get fresh legs

on) but Hughton had no idea what to do.  This is reminiscent of our

entire season.  Never have we gone behind in a league game and come back

to win or even looked like it."  We have however come back in games to draw after being behind, which is something - coming back from 1-0 down against Spurs, Everton, Aston Villa, Southampton away from home.Point 7 - let''s go back to that quote again -"Hughton has a solid and

reasonably effective (but dull) plan A but is possibly the least savvy

and tactically limited manager I''ve ever seen at Norwich."I maintain he isn''t and the names I listed in the previous post were all worse.

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Chops, I could continue to make my point but alas, I have a more purposeful existence than spending my life posting 13,500+ times on here.......and I''ve just noticed your signature.

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Well Clint because you addressed points I made in my post I assume you''re debating with me. Something I''m quite happy to do. As I''m so clever I''ll give you Everton away as an example of matches from which we gained something from substitutions. Because we were behind we brought on all the attacking options we had. I''ll also cite you all the games we won points from, our points total and league position in defence of not making changes, or gambling with the points we held. As I said in my post I can understand people preferring "gung ho play to win" football but to say Hughton tactically limited doesn''t hold water.

 

 

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[quote user="Clint"]Chops, I could continue to make my point but alas, I have a more purposeful existence than spending my life posting 13,500+ times on here.......and I''ve just noticed your signature.[/quote]Depends how you define "purposeful" but if that includes making ridiculous statements and then declining the opportunity to explain them, knock yourself out.The signature isn''t something I''ve ever said, but thanks.

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Last season we scored 14 and conceded 15 in the last 15 minutes of matches. So far this season we have scored 6 and conceded 5 in the last 15 minutes of matches. Food for thought[pi][^o)]

 

 

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It baffles me as to what some supporters really want from their team, we may not be playing the most exciting football at the moment, but we are picking up points and surviving.Our previous Messiah spent £20m plus in the summer at Villa and I bet their fans would love to be in our position. Yes they do play exciting football at times, but they cannot defend so throw points away.Our squad is mainly made up of basically, in the most part, Championship quality players who are competing in one of the best leagues in the world against a lot of world class players. None of our players were ever realistically mentioned as being a target for another Premiership team in the recent transfer window and I don''t think that there are more than maybe two or three that would be on another club''s shopping list.Hoots has to do the best with what he has to work with and knows that survival this season, however it is attained, is the be-all and end-all of his remit. Has anyone considered that the reason he seems to have no Plan B, whatever that is, and does''nt make substitutions any earlier is because the possible replacements he has available to him would not improve or help the team and could conceivably jeopardise our chances of a point or three.We could, maybe, pick out the odd game where a different set-up or tactics would have produced a better result, but we are where we are and we are what we are. Make the most of it, support our team and stop bitching! It could be a whole lot worse.

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I''m glad there has been some good debate on the thread.On a related note (as there has been much comparison between Lambert and Hughton). Things are definitely going wrong at Villa.Here is a link to a nice article (and numbers) about wins and losses from comebacks.http://www.whoscored.com/Blog/4k8ndtwxw0slzoq3uzfdcq/Show/Premier-League-Focus-Victors-Victims-of-Comeback-ResultsVilla are second from bottom. Gaining a measly 2 points from losing positions. And losing 18 points from winning positions. As you would expect Norwich are middle of the road. Giving up 6 more points than those gained. Lambert certainly has not been able to recreate the success he had at Norwich.

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It has been the catalyst for interesting debate Fellas. I''n still of the opinion that I understand people not enjoying the games so much but  don''t believe it''s a reflection of Hughton''s tactical abilities.

 

Just to follow up my last post with a bit more food[pi] for thought[^o)] Aston Villa have scored 4 and conceded 12 in the last 15 minutes of games.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It has been the catalyst for interesting debate Fellas. I''n still of the opinion that I understand people not enjoying the games so much but  don''t believe it''s a reflection of Hughton''s tactical abilities.

 

Just to follow up my last post with a bit more food[pi] for thought[^o)] Aston Villa have scored 4 and conceded 12 in the last 15 minutes of games.

 

 

[/quote]Nutty, when will CH start showing his tactical talent? Thats not a dig, but just interested.

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[quote user="can u sit down please"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

It has been the catalyst for interesting debate Fellas. I''n still of the opinion that I understand people not enjoying the games so much but  don''t believe it''s a reflection of Hughton''s tactical abilities.

 

Just to follow up my last post with a bit more food[pi] for thought[^o)] Aston Villa have scored 4 and conceded 12 in the last 15 minutes of games.

 

 

[/quote]

Nutty, when will CH start showing his tactical talent? Thats not a dig, but just interested.
[/quote]

 

I know it''s not a dig. My whole point though is that he has been showing it. It''s just different tactics. Last season everyone on here was crying out for clean sheets. I preferred the games last year and said so at the time. I enjoyed them more. However that doesn''t mean Lambert is a better tactician than Hughton. In fact I believe the opposite is the case.

 

 

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