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Ernie

Our subs are driving me nuts!

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This is a slight dig at Hughton there is no denying it.  I do think he has done a brilliant job particually under the circumstances, however the timings of his subs is really getting to frustrate me not to mention his choice of subs alot of the time.  This has nothing to do with losing a couple of games on the trot (poss 3) or even when we went on that incredible run, just that when your chasing a game how does he really expect players to come on with only minutes to change the game?  Fine when we are just seeing out a game, wasting a few more seconds becoming more defensive but when we are chasing a game?  I just dont get it, particually if we are losing you need to give your subs at least 15-20 minutes (I believe in most instances) against tiring defensives to get that goal or create that chance, if your going to lose does really matter if its by a single goal or two, or possibly that chance of getting something out of it?  E Bennett coming on in the 89th minute, what the hell is that all about I mean how many minutes in total has he actually played in the last couple of months?  I just think its asking to much.  Rant over.

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Realistically the only subs that are used to ''make a difference'' are attacking subs.

Put quite simply, what the manager has on offer is not good enough ''to make a difference''.

Chris Hughton has strengthened the defensive part of our squad and has options available to him but when you look at the attacking options or players to ''make a difference'' we are woefully short.

Therefore he goes with what he has rather than bringing on lesser players.

I hope the January window will change this.

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Good point well made, however for example Pilkington WBA away was having a nighmare and getting worse as the game went on surely bringing on say Bennett would have at least given us a lift.  Jackson although not a starter in my opinion has enough about him particually with his pace to at the very least unsettle defensives and make them sit deeper.  If Hughton does believe in his subs on the bench to be able to have an impact then whats the point of bringing them on at all, I would rather he didnt bother than to bring on offensive players with just minutes to go.

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[quote user="Ernie"]Good point well made, however for example Pilkington WBA away was having a nighmare and getting worse as the game went on surely bringing on say Bennett would have at least given us a lift.  Jackson although not a starter in my opinion has enough about him particually with his pace to at the very least unsettle defensives and make them sit deeper.  If Hughton does not believe in his subs on the bench to be able to have an impact then whats the point of bringing them on at all, I would rather he didnt bother than to bring on offensive players with just minutes to go.[/quote]

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This is something that I''ve been saying for a while, it''s not just the lack of subs, its that the same subs are are made at roughly the same time each match.I know it''s not the case but it''s almost like the changes are pre-determined before the match.  Either Morison or Howson will come on with roughly 10 mins to go and the other a few mins later.  Invariably it''s Morison for Holt and Howson for Hoolahan, irrespective of how the match is going.  Bennett or Jackson will come on in the last couple of mins, usually only if we''re losing.There seems to be a disctinct lack of a plan B or any kind of game-changing change of personel or formation.  Although a level of consistency is good, you can''t expect the same 11 players, playing exactly the same formation to do well every week, for a huge number of reasons.I don''t agree with Hughton not having sufficient options on the bench either, both Jackson and Bennett played an important part in our 12th place finish last season and offer something completely different to what our starting 11 does - pace!  I''ve been to almost every match this season and a lot of the time our play, albeit nice and tidy, lacks a directness and cutting edge, which these 2 provide.Hughton seems very afraid to try something different for fear of getting a hammering and has gone on record saying how vital a point is in this league.  It seems he would prefer to stay in the game and hope to get lucky from a set-piece than make changes to try change the pattern of the game.  It seemed to be working but 3 defeats in 4 games (and Man City up next) suggests a change of some sort is in order.     

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The subs always seem to be Morison after 78 mins, Howson, 84 and Bennett 87, these are a waste of time as they need time to get into the game, Bennett is being extremely hard done by at the moment in my opinion, he deserves to start in plac of Pilkington who has really gone off the boil lately.

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I have to totally agree as well. I find it really frustraiting. Ok sure, we are not Chris Hughton so we can not see whats going on in his head. Or perhaps he feels that our reserve''s or bench is really not strong enough to warrent changes. I mean look at other teams, im not comparing ourselves to Chelsea but they bought on Hazard, we dont have a player on our bench who could realistically even fight for a first team spot ! ( Benno maybe being the only exception ) There I think lies our issue rather than Hughton being to canny or not knowing whats going on.I for one would like to see more Benno and Jackson, espeacilly with Pilks 60th minute fades and my thoughts on a certain reserve striker. I am hoping for big things in January, 2-3 permanents, Garrido and maybe 2 back up loans.Sad but true, Howson out on loan, and perma shift of Moro and maybe even Jackson. ( although the later would hurt somewhat as he truely has not had a chance under Hughton )

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Hughton was reasonably happy with losing 1-0, did not want to risk Chelski scoring again but thought we could nick a goal for a draw, as we almost did from the excellent downward header from Bassong. That attitude has worked for many games this season so who can argue. [:)]

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Agree with the OP. As Iwan said in his book, a sub needs at least ten minutes to get in touch with the pace of the game, have the ball at his feet a few times, build up some confidence etc. The only player that can change a game that quickly is Marc Libra

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]by changing formation surely he was trying to change the game?[/quote]

Nope IMO, just adapting the team to keep it at a 1-0 deficit rather than 2-0 while hoping for a flukey equaliser. [:D]

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[quote user="Clint"]This is something that I''ve been saying for a while, it''s not just the lack of subs, its that the same subs are are made at roughly the same time each match.

I know it''s not the case but it''s almost like the changes are pre-determined before the match.  Either Morison or Howson will come on with roughly 10 mins to go and the other a few mins later.  Invariably it''s Morison for Holt and Howson for Hoolahan, irrespective of how the match is going.  Bennett or Jackson will come on in the last couple of mins, usually only if we''re losing.

There seems to be a disctinct lack of a plan B or any kind of game-changing change of personel or formation.  Although a level of consistency is good, you can''t expect the same 11 players, playing exactly the same formation to do well every week, for a huge number of reasons.

I don''t agree with Hughton not having sufficient options on the bench either, both Jackson and Bennett played an important part in our 12th place finish last season and offer something completely different to what our starting 11 does - pace!  I''ve been to almost every match this season and a lot of the time our play, albeit nice and tidy, lacks a directness and cutting edge, which these 2 provide.

Hughton seems very afraid to try something different for fear of getting a hammering and has gone on record saying how vital a point is in this league.  It seems he would prefer to stay in the game and hope to get lucky from a set-piece than make changes to try change the pattern of the game.  It seemed to be working but 3 defeats in 4 games (and Man City up next) suggests a change of some sort is in order.     


[/quote]

 

Agree with a lot of what has been said on this thread.

 

However for me it is the lack of a plan B that is the biggest concern. If your starting 11 are the best for plan A and can last the 90 then using substitutes to slow the game for a bit makes sense. When it does not make sense is when we are losing. When chasing a game I would have thought you need to give defences something different tro think about. More pace, a change of formation something to try to unsettle them. This just does not seem to be in our armoury at the moment. Possibly we notice it more as it was a constant feature under Lambert.

 

Maybe we are a team in transition. Is Hughton trying to say this is the way we play, beat us if you can. More of a top team mentality, but do we currently have the personnel to do this? I will leave you to your own thoughts on that. Posts on this forum suggest a need to strength in a few positions, and particularly some pace up front is needed. I would agree and possibly this is where we are aiming. We are all hoping for some gems to arrive in the transfer window. However we probably go into it with less resources than any other team so all other things being equal we may come out of it a stronger team but weaker relative to pretty much the whole of the division. In the past we have found the answer to making things not equal, lets hope it continues.

 

In the meantime even the top teams have plan Bs and Cs. If we stick with just plan A there is a distinct danger we could get sussed and have a more uncomfortable second half to the season than we are currently anticipating.

 

OTBC

 

 

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In my day there wasn''t such thing as subs. Subs is a relatively new thing. When we played it was if you get in the first 11 you play otherwise you don''t if someone got injured you ended the game with 10 men that was just how it was in those days.

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Hughton clearly has a game plan and sets us up accordingly but the lack of a plan B or C is a worry, his subs are nearly always like for like, he never seems to change things when they are not working and brings them on way to late in the game.  If we are going to lose games which we will then I would just like to see us be that bit braver if there''s only a goal or 2 in it, WBA threw 4 strikers on the pitch to get something out of the game and they did.  There has been this pattern in the last dozen or so games where we have been totally in control only to seemingly take our foot of the pedal and try to defend what we have got, a tactic thats proving to be even harder to do with Ruddy out injured.  Hughton has without doubt done a brillant job to get us to where we are now, hopefully we can get 1 or 2 additions in the New Year to help us push on but in games when we need a goal to get the win or rescue a point can we please be just that little bit more adventurous.

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How many more points do you think we could have got if Hughtom was a little more tactically aware like the posters on here?

 

 

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That''s what I was thinking. 34 points and a CL place. I reckon all the club want to do is survive. No feckin'' ambition as usual!

 

 

 

 

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What''s been said about the poor use of subs is exactly what Newcastle and Birmingham fans said when he joined us.Can''t fault the points total and the position we''re in at Christmas but it''s frustrating when we''re losing by an odd goal, or it''s a draw against a team there for the taking, that we don''t make changes early enough.   When we eventually do make bring on a sub it''s Howson who won''t change a game or Morison who won''t change anything even with 20 mins.  To me only Jackson might make a difference from the choice on the usual bench if he got 20 mins.  Gives us the chance to play to feet instead of lumping up to 1 R whose hold-up play is not good enough at this level.

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Great post earnie and I don''t get to say that much on here. I am in the sane opinion a few times this season holt has barely been moving for the last 20 min. Not because he''s lasy just put so much in. This stage is when fresh legs is needed. We all know Jackson and Morrison are no great holts , but at that stage of the game they could do a lot more chasing and pressing.

Also feeling a little sorry for Elliot bennet think he needs atleast a half and get his pace on. Even if it is in a hoolihan role.

In chris we trust on the ball city.

And merry Christmas to you all !!

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I just think fans are more impatient than the manager. We want to win every game and don''t consider the negative impact of substitutions. Just see what the positive impact could be. Take the Chelsea game, our game plan was working perfectly right up to the last minute. Had Bassong''s header gone in we would have had the best result most fans dared hope for. With us doing such a good containing job on Chelsea my opinion is earlier substitutions would have had more chance of a negative affect than a positive.

 

 

 

 

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Nutty, I would argue our game plan wasn''t working perfectly unless it was to lose 1 nil and have no attempts on goal?Had Bassong''s header gone in, it would have been a fantastic result but an extremely lucky one, which is exactly what I said in my earlier post.  Rather than change things, Hughton would prefer to keep it tight and hope to get lucky from a set piece.  I agree that certain substitutions could have a negative impact on how the game is going.  However, I''ve witnessed certain players either having shockers or looking dead on their feet and for whatever reason are left on the pitch.  I don''t see how making a change in this situation would have a negative impact. The West Brom and Villa (cup) matches are examples of where we were well in the game but the opposition manager made positive tactical changes, which worked to their advantage.  Had we done the same, these games may have gone our way, for example, Pilkington was dire in both matches (and apparently ill in one) but played the full 90 mins in both - why? 

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Clint, I can''t believe trhat you and others can''t see the tatical success of Hughton''s philosophy this season or recognise players contributions without the ball. If the game plan is working then there''s more to lose by making the substitutions. It''s my opinion that against Chelsea any earlier substitutions, especially some of those suggested on here, would have been more likely to cost us more goals than score us any. But football is all about opinions and I can''t prove mine anymore than you can prove yours.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Clint, I can''t believe trhat you and others can''t see the tatical success of Hughton''s philosophy this season or recognise players contributions without the ball. If the game plan is working then there''s more to lose by making the substitutions. It''s my opinion that against Chelsea any earlier substitutions, especially some of those suggested on here, would have been more likely to cost us more goals than score us any. But football is all about opinions and I can''t prove mine anymore than you can prove yours.

 

 

[/quote]

 

He is channelling the spirit of Helenio Herrera and the Internazionale of the 1960s.

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Now, Mishkin, although I nearly always agree with you, I do think Hughton may be guilty of a little too much caution with his subs. Sometimes one or two of our players look totally knackered around 75 minutes - usually due to the huge amount of effort they''ve put in - & often the opposition are tiring too. At this point I can''t help but feel that players like Simeon & EB would be worth bringing on.

BUT it would change the shape of the team, & may disrupt fluency while everyone adapts. This is where judgement comes in, & I have absolutely no doubt that Chris''s is superior to mine.

BUT, then again, no football manager is perfect. And substitutions may just be a little bit of an imperfection in his overall excellent abilities ...

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Not really sure what we would have lost by making 3 attacking changes at, say, 70-75 mins though?     Whether we lost 4-0 or 1-0 we would have ended up with nil points and still have a negative goal difference.     In 15 minutes the basic hard working ethic is not going to go from the team and if we went 2-0 down we can avoid further negative goal difference by attacking less with the same 11 players on the pitch.    

 

From a losing position bringing on fresh legs to energise the team and change the attacking dynamic may have gained us a point.  

 

So we had nothing to lose and plenty to gain IMO.

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