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16465 crowd V's Spurs - very poor = Hopefully lesson learnt David Mcnally!

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[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]Are you grooming me, Nutty?[/quote]

 

As if! Whatever makes you think that...

 

[:O][H][&]

 

 

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[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]Are you grooming me, Nutty?[/quote]

 

As if! Whatever makes you think that...

 

[:O][H][&]

 

 

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"This is about other things such as prestige; size of gates attracting advertising and investing; new facilities inside the stand and atmosphere."

 

All of which Darlington have in spades (?). as with our impoverished neighbours - though somehow their gates just don''t seem to be attractive enough to advertisers .. shirts sponsors, stand sponsors etc/. Likewise the ''atmosphere'' at poorman road sems to be also missing.

 

As to us, our facilities are awful aren''t they, how we manage to make a profit from the catering (threefive/ten times that of the binners) lord alone knows.

 

Still, in one area it might help us to move us towards them, and that is debt. That and the need to increase the ticket prices, and joining them in the Championship (presuming they stay up).

 

 

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With that argument City 1st there will never be a time until, like the old South Stand, it is forced on us.

I''d like to see the capacity at Carrow Road sufficient to support the attendance of young supporters, families and groups of friends and family.

The gate money is a small proportion of income in the EPL but in the lower leagues it is what you rely on and we proved that. For loyal fans like ours it provides the funds to challenge in such a situation.

Darlington have no history and if Ipswich fans weren''t so fickle they might avoid their spiral of decline.

Norwich City''s Board are merely custodians and their responsibility extends to providing a ground with the necessary capacity balanced against avoiding debt and the well being of the Club.

We can go through another round of players putting in transfer requests to get more money or paying higher transfer fees and wages or modestly increasing the player budget and use the increased TV revenue on a capital project while at least freezing ticket prices too.

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"The gate money is a small proportion of income in the EPL but in the lower leagues it is what you rely on and we proved that."

 

er,no

 

Despite higher attendances our income from tickest was not any better than the binners. Even in the lower leagues the ticket income was only around the third mark.

 

Yes there is an argument that with a proposed £20 - £40m increase in our TV income  a couple of million would not hurt us - and there is also a very good argument for seeing some of that increase used for long term improvement. Certainly rather than it ending up in the back pockets of over paid players and greedy agents.

 

The downside is that any increase in capacity would put a downward pressure on ticket prices, with the possible result being that we might well not see much of an increase in overall income whilst still having the loan payments to meet. Finde in the PL, not so good in the Championship.

 

For my part I much prefer the days when you could simply turn up, pay on the gate and in you go. If for many reasons others felt the same for that game you simply squeezed in and accepted it. You could meet up with friends and the attendances were pretty much determined by what was going on, on the pitch on the day. that has changed with so much now determined by ticket price.

 

That means that the club can, and does, regulate demand by a click of the mouse (ie changing prices). So there is not really a demand that exists outside and in spite of that behaviour. At the moment the club has a ready resevoir of demand it can move in and out as it requires. Therefore it is hardly likely to want to ''satisfy a demand'' that it can create and diminish as it sees fit.

 

Different days, I''m afraid.

 

 

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We can do that Rudolph. But it''s certainly not in Bowkett and McNally''s immediate plans if their recent statements are to be believed. I think perhaps 2005 and what followed is too much of a recent memory. And they did get in on the back of the fall out from the Jarrold stand.

 

There may never be a "right time". But another thing to consider is whether we can be sure the support justifies increasing capacity. We could probably sell 50,000 seats for the big games in this league but what would the attendance be for Stoke at home if we hadn''t got a captive 22,000 ST holders? The last 5 seasons have been a rollercoaster ride but the aim now is for stability in the Prem. Stability for football fans can also be boring. This season already we''ve seen the novelty of away games wearing off and with the cost being what it is that will continue to be the case. Having seen season ticket holders shy away from £30 on a large scale suggest that money is tight. £30 a game is what ST works out at. A couple of seasons in lower half mid-table could well see the demand for season tickets drop. Our current season ticket support is not made up of 22,000 who particularly want to go to every game. Wednesday proved that. A fair percentage seem to have the ticket to make sure they see the games they want to. A few seasons of that and again the novelty will wear off.

 

The rollercoaster ride of the last few seasons has been a big part of why the stadium sells out. Ironically if a new stand meant we were relegated that very thing could be the catalyst that helps fill it.

 

 

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[quote user="City1st"]

"The gate money is a small proportion of income in the EPL but in the lower leagues it is what you rely on and we proved that."

 

er,no

 

 Even in the lower leagues the ticket income was only around the third mark.

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

Er, yes and no. Only a third, but also by a considerable margin the largest single source of income. Out of £23m in the Championship ticket sales amounted to £8.1m, TV to £5.5m, catering to £4.3m and commercial to £4.3m. And whatever the overall argument for or against increasing capacity, and whatever the increased revenue purely from ticket sales might be, it would certainly also increase revenue from catering and commercial.

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["RUDOLPH HUCKER"]

New stands are like children; if you wait until you can afford them you would never have them.

 

How many times, there cannot be a purely financial case to build a new stand other than with a long term view and in football that is very difficult to take.

 

This is about other things such as prestige; size of gates attracting advertising and investing; new facilities inside the stand and atmosphere.

 

New builds relegate clubs but standing still degenerates in the longer term hence grand old dames of football sit in the lower leagues with huge overhalls of facilities needed and wholly unacheivable.

 

Reinvest profits or pay tax on them, isn''t that right Tangy?

 

 

Kingsway

 

Precisely!

 

To many people when considering increasing the capacity get caught in the "little ole Norwich"  stereotype which a few seasons would of meant they very likely scoffed at increasing Carrow Road to the current 26,800 and something useable capacity. I struggle to see how clubs like Brighton and Swansea who haven''t averaged more than us for years (and I suspect in Swanseas case, never!) are making serious plans to increase capacity yet some of our fans are dead against increasing our capacity when all the stats show its more than viable for. We certainly need the extra capacity more than Swansea do thats for sure! 

 

People who don''t think we need to increase capacity talk as we struggle to get 20,000 for League games and we should have never raised the capacity past 20,000!

 

The fact we get close to capacity/full capacity every League game and have done for many years now prove that we have justifiable reasons to increase capacity. Just cause we average 26,000+ doesn''t mean that the gran total of Norwich supporters. Theres many more than that whcih was proved at last seasons Leicester cup game, where many people spoke of fresh faces in their parts of the ground. Add to this you''ll always have "TV" supporters who will try to get tickets for the games against the big clubs and a 30,000+ ground requiring away clubs to be allocated 3000+ tickets and then its logical to think that Norwich could get 30,000+ crowds in the top flight with the correct pricing. We averaged close to 25,000 in the 3rd Division and would of had at least a couple of 30,000+ crowds (Millwall, Boxing day, Leeds and Carlisle last home game!) for christ sakes!

 

The blatant overpricing of the Spurs prove that Norwich fans aren''t lemming like in that theres a tipping point where many thousands will say NO I''m not paying that. Disapointing as it was the Board had this theory about Norwich fans would go to games whatever but now after the bad ATT for the game can now see this isn''t the case. Like I said during my rant about not going, people voting with their feet was the only way the Board would see sense. Overpricing will not see the ground sell out and will turn a lot of people off supporting the club!

 

Its possible in current times with a bigger ground capacity we could average 5000 more for Premier League League games which would bring in more income. Add in the possibility of a new build including extra corporate facilities/ non football income streams and the new TV deal strating next season then a new build is very viable and wouldn''t have to bankrupt the club!

 

If we wern''t regularly filling the ground like we do then I would be dead set against increasing the capacity cause it would be neccessary but the stats prove otherwise. I want to see the club fullfill its potential. Increasing the ground capacity is part of this!

 

If all this makes a loony, then so be it but this is closer to the truth then those who say we shouldn''t be increasing the capacity!

 

 

 

 

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I don''t consider you a looney kingsway and agree with most of that, particularly your mention of the Club''s recent history of attendances.

 

Any business that regularly sells out it''s product would be amiss not to expand it''s enterprise in the best possible way that it could. The demand is there and will likely remain even upon possible relegation. Total sell-outs necessary to justify the expenditure. It is a long-term vision in the same way as it probably was for the worthies who brought this Club from London Road to Carrow Road in the first place.

 

The finances are crucial and the issue clearly becomes hypothetical should we go down this season, although it would become again relevant should we  make a quick return.

 

There are always plusses and minusses  to be negotiated with business expansion and many of both are always brought up when this topic is discussed. No businesses ever got bigger by dwelling on the latter. As Canary fans we should all want NCFC to grow within reason. This should be a constant and I for one would just love the bragging rights of hqving the Carrot Patch as the major sporting venue (capacity wise) in East Anglia over and above that shed-like ground down the road. 

 

If we do remain Premiership for next season without a capacity above thirty thousand for next then the Club would, IMO, have missed many tricks. Money-wise, time-wise, demand-wise, long term-wise and progress-wise, to name a few of them.     

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"yet some of our fans are dead against increasing our capacity when all the stats show its more than viable for"

 

more lies from Binsway

 

 So I''ll ask you again, point out where ONE fan is "dead against increasing our capacity "

 

"when all the stats show its more than viable "

 

again a lie, all the stats point to any new development having to be subsidised - as well you admitt when you squeak about the cost of tickets v Spurs - why not try talking to the clubs marketing and/or ticket office, I have ... you couldn''t be more wrong if you tried

 

"we could average 5000 more for Premier League League games which would bring in more income"

 

er, no the drop in ticket price required would actually cost MORE than it raised - a fact that your bleat about increased TV money higlights

 

the real point is whether the club and genuine fans want to spend money subsidising a bunch of glory hunters, that is up to the former and I''ve no doubt will be based pn actual figures not ignorant nonsense 

 

Finally I wouldn''t claim you or your ideas are so much as looney - more a case of originating from suffolk, a place where stupidity is an art form, with you as it Michelangelo 

 

 

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[quote user="kingsway"]["RUDOLPH HUCKER"]

New stands are like children; if you wait until you can afford them you would never have them.

 

How many times, there cannot be a purely financial case to build a new stand other than with a long term view and in football that is very difficult to take.

 

This is about other things such as prestige; size of gates attracting advertising and investing; new facilities inside the stand and atmosphere.

 

New builds relegate clubs but standing still degenerates in the longer term hence grand old dames of football sit in the lower leagues with huge overhalls of facilities needed and wholly unacheivable.

 

Reinvest profits or pay tax on them, isn''t that right Tangy?

 

 

Kingsway

 

Precisely!

 

To many people when considering increasing the capacity get caught in the "little ole Norwich"  stereotype which a few seasons would of meant they very likely scoffed at increasing Carrow Road to the current 26,800 and something useable capacity. I struggle to see how clubs like Brighton and Swansea who haven''t averaged more than us for years (and I suspect in Swanseas case, never!) are making serious plans to increase capacity yet some of our fans are dead against increasing our capacity when all the stats show its more than viable for. We certainly need the extra capacity more than Swansea do thats for sure! 

 

People who don''t think we need to increase capacity talk as we struggle to get 20,000 for League games and we should have never raised the capacity past 20,000!

 

The fact we get close to capacity/full capacity every League game and have done for many years now prove that we have justifiable reasons to increase capacity. Just cause we average 26,000+ doesn''t mean that the gran total of Norwich supporters. Theres many more than that whcih was proved at last seasons Leicester cup game, where many people spoke of fresh faces in their parts of the ground. Add to this you''ll always have "TV" supporters who will try to get tickets for the games against the big clubs and a 30,000+ ground requiring away clubs to be allocated 3000+ tickets and then its logical to think that Norwich could get 30,000+ crowds in the top flight with the correct pricing. We averaged close to 25,000 in the 3rd Division and would of had at least a couple of 30,000+ crowds (Millwall, Boxing day, Leeds and Carlisle last home game!) for christ sakes!

 

The blatant overpricing of the Spurs prove that Norwich fans aren''t lemming like in that theres a tipping point where many thousands will say NO I''m not paying that. Disapointing as it was the Board had this theory about Norwich fans would go to games whatever but now after the bad ATT for the game can now see this isn''t the case. Like I said during my rant about not going, people voting with their feet was the only way the Board would see sense. Overpricing will not see the ground sell out and will turn a lot of people off supporting the club!

 

Its possible in current times with a bigger ground capacity we could average 5000 more for Premier League League games which would bring in more income. Add in the possibility of a new build including extra corporate facilities/ non football income streams and the new TV deal strating next season then a new build is very viable and wouldn''t have to bankrupt the club!

 

If we wern''t regularly filling the ground like we do then I would be dead set against increasing the capacity cause it would be neccessary but the stats prove otherwise. I want to see the club fullfill its potential. Increasing the ground capacity is part of this!

 

If all this makes a loony, then so be it but this is closer to the truth then those who say we shouldn''t be increasing the capacity!

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

There goes a decent debate. Anyone who doesn''t agree with the kings way is guilty of being "little ol'' Norwich". Well now, I''ve been accused of that before by far bigger numpties on here. And over the years those said numpties have changed their minds, disappeared or reincarnated as something else.

 

We have Spurs at home for a place in the quarter finals of the cup. The tickets are discounted by 33% from the normal league price. And we can''t half fill the stadium the size it is now. Yet all of a sudden I''m supposed to believe we could sell out a 35,000 stadium at £45/£55 per ticket. Little ol'' Norwich maybe. But it will take a lot more than those sort of insults to change my mind. I''m sure I''ve asked this before Kingsway, would you pay £45/£55 to see Nowich v Stoke?

 

 

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You seemingly are against capacity increase!

 

Yes the new development would have to be subsidised, by the clubs profits afterall we''ll be debt free at the end of this season. The longer we stay in the top flight the club will make serious profit particularly from the new tv deal starting next season. The stats prove we could sell more tickets but fans won''t be fleeced like the price for last Wednesdays Spurs game. The high price of casual tickets for League games is only viable cause the demand exceeds the supply. If the ground held 35,000 and we were struggling to average say 30,000 then the club would have to drop casual prices to attract more fans and offer half season tickets. The exact thing is happening now with the Qtr final game against Villa £5 cheaper than the previous round, ample evidence theof the clubs admitting they got the price wrong!

 

I said we COULD, not WOULD average 5000 extra in the top flightt with a 35,000 ground. Just my prediction but I think with 3-4 games selling out at 35,000, most other games 30,000+ and maybe some of the less attractive games attracting under 30,000 then we would likely be able to average 31,000+. Not unrealistic like your trying to make out!

 

Why would the club and regular fans be subsidising glory hunters?

Season tickets will no doubt go up but won''t go up excessively or otherwise we certainly won''t need extra capacity?

 

Whats so wrong with wanting to see the club grow and for a club who''ve regularly got near sell out/complete sell out for 10 years now to try to increase capacity.

 

No I''m not Suffolk and please don''t slag Suffolk cause many, many Norwich come from across the border!

 

 

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I was called a loony on this thread a while ago so I accusing some Norwich fans of being small thinking where our great club is concerned is hardly nowhere near as derogatory, in reality not derogatory at all. This coming from somene calling themselves Nutty Nigel!

 

 

Well I''m glad I''m not the biggest "numptie" on here and no I will no not change my opinions on increasing the capacity of Carrow Road!

 

Your totally missing the point on the Spurs game. This was a game very likely to be played by very understrength teams by two teams who wouldn''t care if they wern''t in the competition. Norwichs atitude to this competiton since the late 90''s has been terrible, a total insult to fans spending money going ot the games. Is it any wonder then, that a potential 23,000+ crowd at realistic prices was reduced to under 17,000 because of the totally unrealistic adult ticket price?

 

The casual ticket prices for League games are excessively high because theres hardly any of them available and the demand well exceeds the supply on many occasions. The Spurs cup game had 26830-3300 away seats = about 23530 tickets available to home fans.

Now 23530 tickets available for game likely to be played by 2 understrength teams whose clubs would take a half hearted interest in it are not going to be as in demand as the 2-3000 casual tickets available for a League game where both teams would be playing their best available sides and desperate to win the match.

 

We would never sell out a 35,000 Carrow Road at £45-£55 a ticket because much of that capacity would be full of season ticket holders, children and OAP''s all of whom wouldn''t be paying anywhere near that.

 

No I wouldn''t pay £45/£55 to watch Norwich v Stoke because I''ve got a value for money season ticket. If I did''t have the season ticket then unless I became richer than I presently am then I''d be listening on radio Norfolk. People who go on about season tickets sales going down with a capacity increase forget that one of the reasons most people buy season tickets is becuase they work out much cheaper than casual tickets and always will do. If I didn''t had a season ticket I wouldn''t be able to afford current casual prices and most other ST holders would be in the same boat. Anyway like I said before the casual prices are only high because theirs so few of them. If there was more casual tickets then the price would go down which is exactly what the club have been forced to do with the Villa game. Had the Spurs at £30 sold 22,000+ then the Villa game would of likely been £5 more expensive, or at least the same.

 

I agree the prices for the Stoke game were disgusting, a total abuse of the category scheme and the reason why the crowd was 800 short of capacity. Incidentally most of this 800 shortfall in capacity was in the away end and anyway theres loads of clubs that would love to get a home crowd only 800 short of capacity. Those sorts of prices should only be charged for the top teams!

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I am not against increasing the ground capacity - a fact you would be well aware of if you had bothered to read the thread.

 

However you do now accept that "the new development would have to be subsidised" whereas previously you were telling us it was viable because of the huge number of fans who would turn up.

 

In the face of all known knowledge regarding supply and demand, more so at Carrow Road, you are now claiming that if there was an increase in capacity "Season tickets will no doubt go up" ! To keep the differential in price with casual tickets you add "casual prices will always work out higher than ST''s to entice more to buy ST''s! casual tickets would also have to go up", yet you further add  "with a bigger stadium that casual prices may have to go down in order to sell more of them.

 

I don''t think you really have a clue and are simply making up stuff as you go. along Anyone else recognises that we have been able to attract large crowds by keeping season ticket prices artificially low. I cannot see how by increasing capacity you could then also increase the season ticket price. Or by also decreasing the casual ticket price you could ensure that it is better (financially) to buy a season ticket.

 

It comes back to whether it is good practice to triple our current debt and use money to subsidise what are, in the main, glory hunters. It could be argued that in the grand scheme of things £3 - £4m a year is not a great amount when we are receiving tens of million in the PL. The problem is that commitment will run over a far longer period than the current TV deal, far longer than we can guarantee that we will be in the PL.

 

How much of a burden would those millions of debt repayments be were we to be back in the Championship - when these glory hunters may well have gone back to where they were before we were in the PL. 

 

So maybe lets have an honest debate about this. How this might fit in with the longer term development and security of the club, but spare us the emotive guff about how the club is conning people over ticket prices or failing to provide them with seats.

 

 

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Kingsway, nearly all the spare capacity for Stoke was in the away end. There''s no spare capacity for the Man utd game though. And the tickets are even more money. And that''s the thing, we can sell out at any price when fans come to see the opposition. Us ST holders have been spoilt over the years. I notice that Spurs fans had no problem paying £30. As far as I can see the whining came from Norwich ST holders. The half hearted understrength team nonsense is also all in your head. I was at the game and it wasn''t half-hearted and we didn''t field the youth team either.We fielded all first team players.

 

Am I understanding correctly that you are advocating we part with 20m and then reduce prices?

 

 

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Kind of relieved, I managed to get a ticket, enjoyed watching, didnt mind paying £30 cheaper than a night down the pub & more rewarding. All said a great wednesday night. Thought the spurs fans were in fine voice too.

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Has anybody managed to buy their ticket using the online system?

I can''t get it to work, it keeps throwing up an error because my season ticket is in the basket and needs to be removed before checkout. I press remove and nothing happens!

Anyone know how to sort this?

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Glory hunters?! Why insult new supporters, they are very welcome .

And why deny more people the chance to own a season ticket or be able to buy one for a friend or family member side by side?

Why not make it really cheap for kids or for two adults and two kids on a family ticket? This is our future fan base. Look at typical football crowds around the country, they are full of middle aged men.

Norwich city is supposed to be a community club. It used to be lacking in business nous and corrected that with Bowkett and McNally. On the downside there have been instances of a lack of emotional intuition with over the top responses over branding, Internet leaks and pricing to name but three.

Norwich City needs to ensure it balances business with its civic role. I remember reading a football commentator say he had attended the UEA and knew no other City where the life of the football Club and the mood do a city and its people were so intertwined as Norwich.

Good debate though, and I respect your points City 1st.

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"Glory hunters?! "

 

"but I think with 3-4 games selling out at 35,000, most other games 30,000+ and maybe some of the less attractive games attracting under 30,000"  - kingsway

 

"And why deny more people .............."

 

Nobody is being denied anything, anymore than 20,000 City fans are being denied a seat in the Main Stand.

 

At the moment extra capacity is a decision about allocation of resources and possible finanacial risk as explained previously. To make those seats financially viable they would have to charge MORE than current season ticket prices. That flies in the face of all current marketing knowledge, so they would require a subsidy. With the risk of an almost crippling subsidy were we to be relegated.

 

We have employed directors and commercial staff to make us successful. The debate is what defines success, at will always be league position/cup wins etc which is underpinned by generating and using money to that end. That I''m afraid is how it is.

 

 

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["nutty nigel"]

Kingsway, nearly all the spare capacity for Stoke was in the away end. There''s no spare capacity for the Man utd game though. And the tickets are even more money. And that''s the thing, we can sell out at any price when fans come to see the opposition. Us ST holders have been spoilt over the years. I notice that Spurs fans had no problem paying £30. As far as I can see the whining came from Norwich ST holders. The half hearted understrength team nonsense is also all in your head. I was at the game and it wasn''t half-hearted and we didn''t field the youth team either.We fielded all first team players.

 

Am I understanding correctly that you are advocating we part with 20m and then reduce prices?

 

 

Kingsway

 

I know nearly all the spare capacity was in the away end and can you blame them?

 

Yes ManU''s sold out. I recall going past Carrow Road on a Monday morning at 7.30am last season and there was a huge que of people waiting for the box office to open in order to get Man u tickets. And people like you say we shouldn''t increase capacity!

 

Yes thers some games that will always be popular and others that won''t, which is what the category scheme is supposed to cater for and did until McNasty decided that nearly every game is category A!

 

There was many non ST holders who said no to paying £30 to watch the Spurs game!

 

The clubs atitude to the League cup for the last decade has been half hearted!

Did you go to the MK Dons debacle last season for firm evidence of this?

 

Its no wonder many thousands who would of gone ot the Spurs game had the tickets been a fairer price stayed away!

 

And as for your claim that it was a 1st team - codswallop!

 

Yes it was a team with lots of 1st team experience but if that would of been a League game where our Premiership survival was at stake would we of played with that line up - a big NO!

 

If everything in football came down to profit or loss then most if not nearly every football team in the world would of folded by now!

 

As someone earlier put it, stadium expansion is like having kids. If you held of till you could afford them then you''d never do it. With the TV deal and capacity increase offering the potential to increase average crowds and increase catering, corporate and other non football income streams it is viable but of course nothings guaranteed so it would be a gamble but whatever you do in life theirs fors and against and risks!

 

Stadium expansion is all about trying to enhance your club, make it bigger and better and more attractive to players and sponsors. Norwich need to expand because the crowd figures of the last 10 years and the demand the club knows about prove we''d probably get even bigger crowds of the ground was expanded!

 

If we don''t expand our capacity when we can, which is in the Premiership, we''ll get left behind by clubs with crowd levels much lower than ours who are seriously thinkign about expanding capacity, in the case of Brighton, their ground will be bigger than ours at the end of this season. MK Dons will follow suit soon as well!

 

Like I''ve repeated on here before, I''m only all for stadium expansion at Carrow Road mainly because we''re filling Carrow Road for League games on a regular basis. If we wern''t then I''d be totally against and if we wern''t in the top flight I''d say no as well!

 

And I''ll say it again anyone that thinks we don''t need to expand our ground capacity are drinking from the "little Ole Norwich" cup, an atitude which has held the club back before and will again if the club listens to the myth.

 

While McNasty has got some of the prices wrong recently. I admire him for getting away from this Little Norwich atitiude!

 

Ticker prices are all about supply and demand. Its no unrealistic to say that in a 35,000 ground we could get up to 5000 more season ticket holders. Combine this with more away fans then it likely their still wouldn''t be that casual tickets left which would mean they''d still be costly!

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["City1st"]

"Glory hunters?! "

 

"but I think with 3-4 games selling out at 35,000, most other games 30,000+ and maybe some of the less attractive games attracting under 30,000"  - kingsway

 

"And why deny more people .............."

 

Nobody is being denied anything, anymore than 20,000 City fans are being denied a seat in the Main Stand.

 

At the moment extra capacity is a decision about allocation of resources and possible finanacial risk as explained previously. To make those seats financially viable they would have to charge MORE than current season ticket prices. That flies in the face of all current marketing knowledge, so they would require a subsidy. With the risk of an almost crippling subsidy were we to be relegated.

 

We have employed directors and commercial staff to make us successful. The debate is what defines success, at will always be league position/cup wins etc which is underpinned by generating and using money to that end. That I''m afraid is how it is.

 

 

 

 

Kingsway

 

There will always be more interest in some games and less than others but that is life. Norwich in recent years have bucked this trend more than nearly every League club in the UK by getting big crowds in every home League game, hence the realistic opttion of stadium expansion!

 

Like I said in my last post theres alway goign to be risks and like you said a question of allocating ressouces. when we sign a player for X amount there will always be a risk because he might get injured John O Neill style or might be a flop Mike Sheron like!

 

Yes the risk in expanding capacity is getting relegated and/or crowds dropping or not going up after the expansion. Theres no guarantee we''ll stay up and neither with crowds but at least with the crowds the clubs has got the knowledge that every capacity increase since 2004 has seen the crowds go up as well and they know the current demand exceeds the supply!

 

Life is a risk and professional football is a risk, full of ifs and buts and about taking chances!

 

You talk like Norwich don''t need the extra capacity and you know all the ins and outs of the clubs finances. I wouldn''t even think about stadium expansion if we wern''t in the top flight or we wern''t getting getting so close to capacity crowds every time!

In terms of on pitch success a club of size nowadays judges this by mere Premiership survival. Stadium expansion would help us become more viable in the top flight cause we''d be able to generate more income and entice a higher calibre of football staff to the club!

The UEA and other organisations have done studies and come to the conclusion that Norwich City while in the megabucks top flight can justifaibly look to increase capacity!

 

Even at current prices with extra capacity we''d probably be able to get bigger crowds which would generate more income!

 

Its really a no brainer when we become debt free and are still in the top flight!

 

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More old shyte from  Binsway

 

After having to admit that the new stand would have to be subsidised, NOT paid for by tickets as previously claimed binsway now spouts out this old tosh

 

"Stadium expansion is all about trying to enhance your club, make it bigger and better and more attractive to players and sponsors"

 

Yes, our impoverished neighbours who have had a bigger and better stadium in the past decade have been "more attractive to players and sponsors", my ar se ! They can''t even find sponsors for their shirts or stands.

 

What about Derby, Sheff Weds, Middlesboro, Leicester, Darlington etc ? Where are their better players ? Why are Palace top of the table and the paupers bottom, is Selhurst Park more attractive ?

 

You have lost the argument with your contradictory nonsense binsway. As to the cost and feasibility I will trust those who work at the club and can state authoritively, rather than some fantasist who hasn''t a clue whether prices should go up, come down, what causes a price to go up or down, how the club determines prices etc ....... or even when planet reality might next pass within his bizarre universe.

 

 

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[quote user="kingsway"]["nutty nigel"]

 

I know nearly all the spare capacity was in the away end and can you blame them?

 

Yes ManU''s sold out. I recall going past Carrow Road on a Monday morning at 7.30am last season and there was a huge que of people waiting for the box office to open in order to get Man u tickets. And people like you say we shouldn''t increase capacity!

 

Yes thers some games that will always be popular and others that won''t, which is what the category scheme is supposed to cater for and did until McNasty decided that nearly every game is category A!

 

There was many non ST holders who said no to paying £30 to watch the Spurs game!

 

The clubs atitude to the League cup for the last decade has been half hearted!

Did you go to the MK Dons debacle last season for firm evidence of this?

 

Its no wonder many thousands who would of gone ot the Spurs game had the tickets been a fairer price stayed away!

 

And as for your claim that it was a 1st team - codswallop!

 

Yes it was a team with lots of 1st team experience but if that would of been a League game where our Premiership survival was at stake would we of played with that line up - a big NO!

 

If everything in football came down to profit or loss then most if not nearly every football team in the world would of folded by now!

 

As someone earlier put it, stadium expansion is like having kids. If you held of till you could afford them then you''d never do it. With the TV deal and capacity increase offering the potential to increase average crowds and increase catering, corporate and other non football income streams it is viable but of course nothings guaranteed so it would be a gamble but whatever you do in life theirs fors and against and risks!

 

Stadium expansion is all about trying to enhance your club, make it bigger and better and more attractive to players and sponsors. Norwich need to expand because the crowd figures of the last 10 years and the demand the club knows about prove we''d probably get even bigger crowds of the ground was expanded!

 

If we don''t expand our capacity when we can, which is in the Premiership, we''ll get left behind by clubs with crowd levels much lower than ours who are seriously thinkign about expanding capacity, in the case of Brighton, their ground will be bigger than ours at the end of this season. MK Dons will follow suit soon as well!

 

Like I''ve repeated on here before, I''m only all for stadium expansion at Carrow Road mainly because we''re filling Carrow Road for League games on a regular basis. If we wern''t then I''d be totally against and if we wern''t in the top flight I''d say no as well!

 

And I''ll say it again anyone that thinks we don''t need to expand our ground capacity are drinking from the "little Ole Norwich" cup, an atitude which has held the club back before and will again if the club listens to the myth.

 

While McNasty has got some of the prices wrong recently. I admire him for getting away from this Little Norwich atitiude!

 

Ticker prices are all about supply and demand. Its no unrealistic to say that in a 35,000 ground we could get up to 5000 more season ticket holders. Combine this with more away fans then it likely their still wouldn''t be that casual tickets left which would mean they''d still be costly!

[/quote]

 

Where do I start...

 

I don''t even want the people who are coming to watch Man Utd in the ground kingsway. Let them go to Old Trafford. Are you seriously suggesting we divert money from the first team to expand the stadium in order to fit in fans who come to watch the opposition?

 

There were more casual fans happy to pay £30 for the Spurs game than paid £45 for Stoke. If these non season ticket holders you reckon baulked at paying £30 then how many of them will pay £50 for a seat in your new stand?

 

It was the first team. The big clubs like Arsenal play their youth team. That''s the difference. Lambert used 19 players over Chrtistmas last season without any one remotely suggesting he fielded reserve players. Why use the MKDons game as a yardstick when Hughton had already played and won through two rounds this season. If winning games isn''t a signal of intent then I don''t know what is.

 

Some of the rest of your points I don''t really understand buddy. Too much for a bog cleaning bingo caller to come to terms with in one go. But I think you must be the only person on here who believes we could sell another 5,000 season tickets. Surely the most likely scenario would be a decrease in season ticket holders?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I haven''t read all of this and I think I may have commented on this earlier, but the ground expansion plan just doesn''t hold water.   There may be a case for adding a couple of thousand seats if possible, but new stand?  Not in these times.   

If you build a new stand adding 5000 seats, you will end up with less demand for season tickets - whereas to make the new seats viable you would actually need more season ticket buyers - who would have to pay more for he privelege.    A question of supply and demand.    Its better to have a small waiting list for season ticket holders than a shortfall.   Its like money in the bank.   Its better to be in credit  than overdrawn.  

The only games that would fill a 35000 ground would be extreme games - perhaps half a dozen games a season, if that.      The  average attendance would not be much more than it is now imo.     Hardly grounds for a new stand.   Yes we want to build our club up, but imo talk of a new stand is wishful thinking.  

We should concentrate  our efforts on the pitch - if we evolve into a stronger club with players and wages up with the best in the country, then we will be higher up the table, be seen as an established premiership club and then - and only then should we build a new stand.    Also, I suspect that a new stand would be part of any investment  plan - if DS stands down because new money is coming in - then a new stand would be part of the deal - hence avoiding the need for new debt. 

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"The average attendance would not be much more than it is now imo."

 

Unless the club were to reduce prices much lower to stimulate demand. The problem is that any drop in price could not simply be applied to that stand but would have to be across the board, so any increase in numbers would simply cause a loss elsewhere.

 

The concern would be that there might actually be an almost ''neutral'' overall take, whilst still having an extra 4000 in the ground. Fine, if that was all it was but the new stand (UNLIKE the present seating) has costs with it so from some where those costs have to be paid. Again fine if we are in the Pl, but what happens if we are relegated ?

 

If numbers drift away there will not be the margins to decrease prices further to stimulate demand as the spare capacity will take away the current supply problem. We could then easily be in the kind of downward spiral the paupers have down the road, with regard to ticket income.

 

There is also the awareness that any redevelopment would have to be roughly in multiples of 4000 ie 4000 or 8000 on top on the South Stand, 8000 or 12,000 to replace the Main Stand. The capacity cannot simply be expanded willy nilly as some on here are warbling on about. These are very fixed and immovable numbers that would need quite a bit of price movement to guarantee the maximum occupancy and income. Something that would require far more certainty that a couple of seasons in the PL where demand is already dropping off or the infantile squeaks of a few deluded fantasists.

 

It is easy to sit and claim some kind of moral high ground by bleating about an imagined 35,000 fans, to talk of providing extremely cheap seating for those who have only recently shown an interest, without any recognition of the cost and the logistics involved.

 

A cursory look down the A140 should show what the dangers of incompetent and unrealistic club management can deliver - maybe that''s what some would like to happen to our club, for what ever reason .. who knows ?

 

 

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If, and only if, we have successfully navigated three full seasons in the Premiership then where will we be as a Club?

Firstly, we will debt-free. Secondly, I expect we will have improved the quality of the playing squad over that time to ensure our continuing survival. No doubt we will have invested in the youth scheme and extended our scouting system.

But I wouldn''t be surprised that, even after all of this activity, we are still showing a healthy surplus of income over expenditure. So what do we do with this surplus? Let the tax man have? Allow the playing squad to up their wage demands, knowing that we have the cash sitting in the bank? Or do we invest the surplus into increasing capacity and improving fans facilities. Of course, the surplus wouldnot be big enough to finance the building of a new stand outright, but it would contribute to financing the debt we''d incur to build the stand.

I agree with Nutty''s arguements that the likely scenario is that many ST holders will not renew on the basis that casual seats will become available and that as a result ticket prices may fall around the whole of the ground as a result. But then why is that neccessarily a bad thing that the supporters are the one''s benefitting from the TV income, through cheaper entry, rather than this surplus ending up in the pockets of greedy players and their agents. And with cheaper seats for fans, you will see bigger gates as football becomes more affordable.

So far, this thread has looked at what is good for the club. But let''s not forget the fans in this, too. If it means the proportion of revenue from ticket receipts falls in relation to TV revenue then ithas to be a good thing for the supporter.

 

Of course as I said at the beginning,this applies only if we havebeen in the Premiership for a few seasons are are looking at an income surplus. If we are relegated then we would be better off keeping the ground capacity as it is now because we''d unlikely to be  enjoying revenue surpluses.

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They''re interesting points Rocky. But we will only show a surplus if we stop striving to get to the next level. Theoretically, if we aim  to improve season upon season then there will be no surplus. The ultimate aim should be to win the league. Now I can understand people saying that aim is not realistic and at some point we should end the rat race and take our ambition away from football  and back to bricks and mortar. But that will undoubtedly see us drop back. There''s no standing still in football as we have found out to our cost. If that happens we will be back to the unrealistic fans anger and howling that the last board had to put up with.

 

Who''d be on the board of a football club? They can never be right and will always be selling the fans short.

 

 

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"So far, this thread has looked at what is good for the club"

 

and that is what motivates what happens at the club, so anything to the contrary is I''m afraid just wishful thinking

 

this applies only if we havebeen in the Premiership for a few seasons

 

but that previous status still doesn''t determine the subsequent seasons - the question would be one of could we continue to subsidise fans on an ever growing cost

 

how low would the ticket price have to drop to attract 35,000 at home to Barnsley - a drop that would have to be right across the board, slashing income to the bone and so requiring even more subsidy

 

sadly many fans did not recognise the downside of TV, and I''m afraid still don''t - increasing the TV revenue by another £30m per annum will not increase the playing ability of players, but will burden clubs with having to pay those both on and off the pitch to stay on that money merry go round, because without that mad merry go round of money there would be no PL as we know it and if City were to stand aside from it there is every certainty that they will quickly fall off it - so removing the need for a 35,000 stadium

 

I''m not sure if there is a simple solution to this - and definitely not the ones being offered up by pie in the sky dreamers in much earlier posts

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Kingsway, nearly all the spare capacity for Stoke was in the away end. There''s no spare capacity for the Man utd game though. And the tickets are even more money. And that''s the thing, we can sell out at any price when fans come to see the opposition. Us ST holders have been spoilt over the years. I notice that Spurs fans had no problem paying £30. As far as I can see the whining came from Norwich ST holders. The half hearted understrength team nonsense is also all in your head. I was at the game and it wasn''t half-hearted and we didn''t field the youth team either.We fielded all first team players.

 

Am I understanding correctly that you are advocating we part with 20m and then reduce prices?

 

 

[/quote]

 

It depends what you mean by whining, nutty, but if you mean people regarding £30 as too high a price and demonstrating that by not attending then I very much doubt that applied only to season ticket holders. Given that the number of NCFC fans in the ground was probably at most 13,000 I would be amazed if there were not a large number of non-ST holders who decided to stay away. If only half our 22,000 ST holders attended that would mean only 2,000 non-STers. Notional figures, of course, to make the point.

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