16465 crowd V's Spurs - very poor = Hopefully lesson learnt David Mcnally!

[Mello Yello 2,289]

Well, clutching my season ticket in my hand I''m off to watch us do battle with Crouch and Co......

 

I''m also looking forward to purchasing my guaranteed ticket for the Villa cup clash, as I''m a season ticket holder......

 

Swings an'' roundabouts.......swings an'' roundabouts.......

 

Shame I have to compete with the biscuit bandits in the lounge......but, that''s the way the cookie crumbles......

[Crabby 0]

[quote user="Crabby"]£55 for a ticket against Stoke is asking a lot, will be interesting to actually see how many empty seats there are and what the final attendance figures come out at. Might be a lot will get sold today?   [/quote]

26072 attendance although the announcer at the ground was having trouble reading figures with more than 2 digits and announced it as 26720.There was a really poor turn out from Stoke, but in fairness who would want to travel hundreds of miles to watch that cr@p every week and watch the Chav that is Pullis jumping up down and having a tantrum,  there didn`t seem to be many empty seats to be honest!

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Crabby"][quote user="Crabby"]£55 for a ticket against Stoke is asking a lot, will be interesting to actually see how many empty seats there are and what the final attendance figures come out at. Might be a lot will get sold today?  
[/quote]









26072 attendance although the announcer at the ground was having trouble reading figures with more than 2 digits and announced it as 26720.
There was a really poor turn out from Stoke, but in fairness who would want to travel hundreds of miles to watch that cr@p every week and watch the Chav that is Pullis jumping up down and having a tantrum,  there didn`t seem to be many empty seats to be honest!
[/quote]

 

No doubt in part because we classified that as a Grade A game. That applies to away fans as much as it does to home fans. The row over the price of tickets for the cup games shouldn''t obscure the real argument, which is whether the ticketing policy for league games is right in the longer run. I am sure we got more money yesterday from a ground 800 short of capacity at Grade A prices than we would have done with a full ground at B or C prices. But if Stoke is A there are not going to be many Bs or Cs. In the short term that is fine, because demand is generally at least equal to supply, although not yesterday.

[nutty nigel 7,530]

Absolutely spot on Purple. Ther pricing for yesterday was a joke. But the punchline was they got away with it and will continue to do so because of the scarcity of casual tickets and the fact the price makes no difference to the 22,000 season ticket holders who baulked at £30 for last Wednesday. A few hundred left unsold for the likes of Stoke makes little difference in the bigger picture. £30 quid for Spurs in the cup or £50 for Stoke in the league? You decide.

 

 

[pete_norw 0]

Think the club have got it right on ticket prices, and not just saying that because I''m a S/T holder either, But If the fans want the club do well then we have to pay for it and players don''t come cheap, the Villa match will with no doubt be a sell out even if tickets were £40 or £50. because the fans are up for this one more than any other, I have been to all the cup matches so far and will be at the next round, and will be attending any home league cup match in the future, If people really want to go to football matches they will find the money somehow, just like the people who can find the money to buy Fags and booze, people moan about these prices but shops and pubs still sell loads..  

[paul moy 235]

Supporters baulked at the 30 quid because they knew it was going to be a second-team fielded as the Prem is priority. If they had been guaranteed first-team selections I''m sure that the turnout would have been somewhat higher. For a second-team match, and also midweek, the price should have been much lower, and for Stoke the price was equally ridiculous but at least people knew they''d be watching the first-team.

[nutty nigel 7,530]

Utter rubbish Moyo. This second team bollox is just an excuse. Only Bunn Tierney and Fox could be classed as reserve players and Bunn sits on the bench every week while fans clamour for Fox to start. It''s not like the clubs who play the youth team.

 

 

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Utter rubbish Moyo. This second team bollox is just an excuse. Only Bunn Tierney and Fox could be classed as reserve players and Bunn sits on the bench every week while fans clamour for Fox to start. It''s not like the clubs who play the youth team.

[/quote]

You miss the point. The perception before the game was that fringe players such as Chris Martin would get a run out. Who was actually picked on the day is irrelevant because people decided on whether to go based on who they thought would play. The key thing next will be as to what people''s perceptions are as to who will play in the Villa game. If they think that CM will play would they still pay 50 quid ?  I wouldn''t pay 15 quid.

[nutty nigel 7,530]

So Moyo, back to the question. Spurs for £30 or Stoke for £50?

 

 

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

So Moyo, back to the question. Spurs for £30 or Stoke for £50?

[/quote]

Neither for me at those prices even if I lived in Norwich.

[nutty nigel 7,530]

So you wouldn''t pay £30 Moyo? There''s never going to be tickets for less that £30! So I assume that you''d pay those sort of prices for Man Utd and Chelsea. Begs the question...

 

What team would you actually pay anything to see?

 

 

[kingsway 94]

[="paul moy"]Supporters baulked at the 30 quid because they knew it was going to be a second-team fielded as the Prem is priority. If they had been guaranteed first-team selections I''m sure that the turnout would have been somewhat higher. For a second-team match, and also midweek, the price should have been much lower, and for Stoke the price was equally ridiculous but at least people knew they''d be watching the first-team.

 

 

Exactly Paul Moy!

 

Turner was the only player who started last Saturday at Villa who started the Spurs match so while the team put out against Spurs had plenty of 1st team experience it was in reality a 2nd string. The reverting back to most of the Villa line up bar Whittiker and Snodgrass emphasises this more!

 

I''d also add that the clubs "couldn''t give a f*ck" atitude to the League cup in the last 12+ years had a big bearing on the thoughts of the stay aways!

 

I''m sure the club made more yesterday with 800 less than they would have got if they had chraged the fairer lower category prices but the bigger picture is that the club should be looking to find a finer balance between blatant profiteering and ethical ticket prices. Thats cause blatant profiteering may work in the short term (except last Wednesdays game!) but in the long term many young fans who may get hooked on Norwich City for life like many of us have in our youth are being prevented from going to games cause their parents baulk at the high prices. Going to home games becomes habit forming and like myself I found it rather surreal to be at home when Norwich were playing at Carrow Road but I wanted to make a point like many others, a point the club has taken on board. If the kids don''t get into the habit of going to home games then they soon find other things to do!

 

Despite people now starting to stay away cause of the high prices I still maintain we could fill most of a 35,000 capacity Carrow Road in the top flight cause I think theres a few more thousand out there who''d buy the better value season tickets and we''d be able to accomodate more away fans!

[nutty nigel 7,530]

We''d have no chance of filling a 35,000 stadium except against the top 6. The wailing from ST holders last week and the comments since makes me believe that many only renew STs to ensure they see the big teams. With a bigger Stadium many wouldn''t renew and games like Stoke would see 15,000 gates.

 

 

[kingsway 94]

Thats the point I''m making!

 

The big attraction of a ST for me has always been its works out cheaper than casual tickets and you have you regular seat.

 

 

While I''m sure its likely with a bigger stadium that casual prices may have to go down in order to sell more of them, casual prices will always work out higher than ST''s to entice more to buy ST''s!

 

In the past in less well attended times the club used to sell half ST''s. This would become another option if we aren''t selling all the ST spaces available in a bigger ground.

 

This seasons obvious discontent with overprices tickets will hopefully be a big learning curve for Mcnasty and co. In recent year theres been something of a "Norwich fans will go whatever" atitude but this is evidently not the case!

[kingsway 94]

I will keep maintaining that we could average 30-33,000 in a 35,000 capacity stadium in the top flight because -

 

More people would buy ST''s and half ST''s cause they work out cheaper!

 

More away fans 3000+ could be accomodated and a few clubs would demand that many!

 

Regardless of whether tickets are priced extortionating or not, there will always be people wanting to see in the flesh, the top 6-7 clubs!

 

The Board have realised that people will only pay so much for certain games, so the less attractive games will be priced more sensibly!

 

The club has said the demand is there. Last Wednesdays Spurs game prove this albeit a negative way. There was 3000+ Sopurs fans in the away end plus more than a few in home areas amongst a crowd of 16,000+. This means there was only less than 13,000 true Norwich fans there. Theres certainly many more than 13,000 Norwich fanms who''d be interested in going to games if the price was right!

 

I have a lot of connections with the Birmingham area and the Bluenoses done a similar thing in the late 90''s. They use dto attract huge crowds at 3rd/2nd Division till the clubs owners decided to squeeze every penny out of supporters. The result was overpriced tickets, falling crowds and now in recent seasons, even in the top flight St Andrews has seen very poor crowds. Look into this this and learn David Mcnally! 

[Bill 1,788]

"While I''m sure its likely with a bigger stadium that casual prices may have to go down in order to sell more of them"

 

Dearie me, it beggars belief sometimes

 

The current figures for paying the loan rely on ALL the extra 8000 seats being sold at current prices for EVERY game. Yet here you are warbling on about cutting the prices. Do you really think if the ticket price for casuals was halved yesterday we would have sold an extra 2000 tickets ? Even were that to be true it would still only return the same amount as yesterday - thereby leaving another hole to be filled (subsidy). How many games could the club cut the casual ticket prices in order to generate sales, before that impacts of the differential between casual and season ticket prices ?

I do not believe there are -

 an extra 5000 season ticket sales out there at current prices

an extra 2000 casual ticket sales for EVERY game at current prices

an extra 500 away fans at every game

because what is always overlooked is how many of those buying casual tickets for yeasterdays game would not be doing so were there to be an extra 5000 season tickets available ?

 

so to pay for the redevelopment you either have to raise the season ticket prices, when extra supply usually leads to lower prices, and/or drastically raise casual ticket prices, when the same extra supply would usually also see a downward pressure on tickets

 

unless, of course, which I suspect some on here imagine the new stand will be built for free - no masive loan, so no interest or loan repayments whatsoever and no possibility of being outside of the Premier League either during the repayment years

 

 

ps if future attendances are dependant on current attendances ie the poor horphans and put upon mites who cannot get into Carrow Road at the moment will not attend in years to come, where have these extra 12,000 ''fans'' come from, given they were not in much evidence when we had crowds of 16,000 ?

 

 

 

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

So you wouldn''t pay £30 Moyo? There''s never going to be tickets for less that £30! So I assume that you''d pay those sort of prices for Man Utd and Chelsea. Begs the question...

 

What team would you actually pay anything to see?

[/quote]

Certainly not 30 quid for a perceived reserve game or 50 for Stoke !!  Hayes and Yeading v Ebbsfleet FA Cup was 15 quid...  QPR v Norwich was 35 quid in Jan.  Norwich in the Prem is pricing out casual fans ... even Reading away is 37 quid on Saturday.  Having said that if I lived in Norwich I would have a nice affordable season-ticket.  

[nutty nigel 7,530]

[quote user="kingsway"]

Thats the point I''m making!

 

The big attraction of a ST for me has always been its works out cheaper than casual tickets and you have you regular seat.

 

 

While I''m sure its likely with a bigger stadium that casual prices may have to go down in order to sell more of them, casual prices will always work out higher than ST''s to entice more to buy ST''s!

 

In the past in less well attended times the club used to sell half ST''s. This would become another option if we aren''t selling all the ST spaces available in a bigger ground.

 

This seasons obvious discontent with overprices tickets will hopefully be a big learning curve for Mcnasty and co. In recent year theres been something of a "Norwich fans will go whatever" atitude but this is evidently not the case!

[/quote]

 

The problem is not just the differential between STs and casuals per game but also the ridiculous grading system which the club take advantage of. This grading system is abused by McNally but even without his abuse it''s an insult to supporters and more a by product of modern fans. A Norwich supporter will make the same efforts to go to Man Utd, Stoke or Spurs in the cup. One price for all is how it used to be and that''s what us season ticket holders have had this month for Man Utd, Stoke and Spurs in the cup. The poor casual fan has had three different prices the best value being Spurs in the cup which they got at the same price as ST holders. Foir supporters each game is as important as the other. For fans the PL games against the big teams are the ones they prize the most. Different strokes for different blokes.

 

And just to get back to this reserve team nonsense from the cup game. Last year in the christmas week Lambert started 19 different players. Which game was the reserve team? At least Moyo is honest enough to admit his expected reserve team didn''t happen.

 

 

 

 

[kingsway 94]

Likeas been said on here before, if we do increase to 35,000 and we ONLY average doesn''t make it wrong cause without the ground holding 35,000 the 32,000 average wouldn''t be possible!

 

I''d say using current times as a guide, we''d get probably get 34-35,000 against ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and Man City. Most other games would be in the 29-32,000 range!

 

Well its something we''ll certainly find out in the near future cause the club seriously wants to do it and they know the demand more than what we do!

 

Another note is No one would of predicted the big League crowds we''ve attracted from about 2001 onwards back in the 1990''s. Even myself a believer in increasing ground capacity at Carrow Raod wouldn''t!

[nutty nigel 7,530]

[quote user="kingsway"]

Likeas been said on here before, if we do increase to 35,000 and we ONLY average doesn''t make it wrong cause without the ground holding 35,000 the 32,000 average wouldn''t be possible!

 

I''d say using current times as a guide, we''d get probably get 34-35,000 against ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and Man City. Most other games would be in the 29-32,000 range!

 

Well its something we''ll certainly find out in the near future cause the club seriously wants to do it and they know the demand more than what we do!

 

Another note is No one would of predicted the big League crowds we''ve attracted from about 2001 onwards back in the 1990''s. Even myself a believer in increasing ground capacity at Carrow Raod wouldn''t!

[/quote]

 

Well you''ve seen something I haven''t. I''d say the opposite is the case and the comments I''ve heard from Bowkett and McNally certainly seem to have distanced them from earlier commitments.

 

Do you seriously think we could get 29,000 for Stoke at home after Wednesday''s attendance? I firmly believe a 35,000 stadium would reduce ST numbers resulting in many lower gates with only fairweather sell outs against the big names.

 

 

[kingsway 94]

Like I said before, ST''s will always work out chepaer than buying casual tickets and with a ST you have more choice on where you want to sit!

[nutty nigel 7,530]

[quote user="kingsway"]

Like I said before, ST''s will always work out chepaer than buying casual tickets and with a ST you have more choice on where you want to sit!

[/quote]

Yes they will Kingsway and they always have. But not with the margins we now contend with. ST price per game probably averages the £30 charged on Wednesday. Casual prices probably average £50. It''s not justifiable and any major stadium expansion will see that gap close. It''s unlikely to happen now, especially after the club saw first hand how many boycotted at paying the avarage price for Spurs in the cup. You can''t have it both ways. On that evidence what would you need to charge to get your 29,000 for Stoke at home? Unless we go back to kids for a quid of special offers like Villa did the club will be left with their 13/15,000 hardcore supporters who go come what may.

 

 

[kingsway 94]

Yeah but with no intention of getting into the "I''m a better fan than you" bull, I''d say I''ve been more hardcore than most over the last 40 years and have always considered myself someone who''d always go to Carrow Road 1st team games whatever but last Wednesdays price forced my hand. I suspect quite a few thousand fans would of had the same situation!

 

I''ve always thought that judged in the crowd increases over the years, any expansion to 30,000+ while in the top flight would see a similar situation to what we have now which is most of the ground taken by season tickets, combined with more spaces for away fans -1500- 3000 and about a thousand more available seats for casuals!

[Bill 1,788]

You haven''t quite grasped this have you Kingsway. You talk of increasing the ground capacity as if it were a piece of knicker elsatic that can be stretched as you please. 35,000, 32.000 or in fact ''any expansion to 30,000+''.

 

In the real world any expansion will be brought about by adding another tier on top of an existing stand, or pulling down a stand and completely rebuiling it. The most likely would be rebuilding the main stand. Putting in 8000 seats there would cost around £20m,

 

That would give us an extra 4000 seats (roughly a seventh more than now). A seventh more in ticket income would be therefore be generated. However that presumes that ticket sales are as high there as now ie all season tickets sold, virtually all casual season tickets also sold. Even that would only generate around £1.6m. If the loan is to be paid over £10 years the capital payments would be £2m a year alone and the interest most likely around £1.5m per year, averaged out over the 10 years.

 

Yes there will be extra food/drink profits but they will have to offset the extra stewarding costs and the £1.4m loss in revenue from the Main stand members having to be seated elsewhere, per season.

 

We have pretty much reached our peak numbers wise. Yes ''big'' games will always have a high demand, way above supply as it will never be cost effective to built seating for those few games. Much of the talk on here is about how the club are putting the prices up too high, yet the whole cost of any ground expansion is based on those prices being maintained, if not actually increased.

 

The last two home games have pretty much blown away much of the nonsense about the ground needing to expand becato fit in the 8000 plus fans clamouring to get into Carrow Road. Maybe some of those still deluded might now care to tell the rest of us how this will be funded.

 

 

 

Yesterday and Wedsnesday should have woke up a few

[Yellowfuture 71]

Why does any loan for expansion have to be paid off over 10 years, is that a standard stipulation by lenders for these sort of capital projects or is it a convenient round figure used by the club for financial planning purposes, which in reality could be moved either way?

[Highland Canary 76]

I''m not convinced Villa at £25 will be a sell out. We didn''t manage to sell out our away allocation to Villa (cf last season) and attendances both in the cup and against Stoke were soft. Will be interesting to see - my estimate 18k

[nutty nigel 7,530]

[quote user="kingsway"]

Yeah but with no intention of getting into the "I''m a better fan than you" bull, I''d say I''ve been more hardcore than most over the last 40 years and have always considered myself someone who''d always go to Carrow Road 1st team games whatever but last Wednesdays price forced my hand. I suspect quite a few thousand fans would of had the same situation!

 

I''ve always thought that judged in the crowd increases over the years, any expansion to 30,000+ while in the top flight would see a similar situation to what we have now which is most of the ground taken by season tickets, combined with more spaces for away fans -1500- 3000 and about a thousand more available seats for casuals!

[/quote]

 

Yeah but you just did...

 

Your 40 years, like my 45 years, are the past. I was talking about the hardcore support now. Those 13/15,000 change season by season. Those who went to the Spurs game are this season''s hardcore. Your claims from the past are about as relevant as the scummers still milking their days as a top tier club in the last century.

 

The truth is while you were encouraging a boycott because £30 was too much many casual fans were happily paying the same £30 which was a 33% reduction on their price for the Stoke game.

 

 

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

Be honest, a lot of people didn''t go to the Villa Cup game because, amongst financial reasons, they could only see Norwich losing, there wasn''t the belief. In fact, I bet we would have sold more tickets if this game had come up during our two promotion seasons.

As for increasing capacity, there are risks on spare capacity reintroducing selective attendance. That said, the expansion of Carrow Road cannot simply be a financial decision any more than a transfer fee is. It is very much a civic ambition.

Costs can be mitigated by naming rights and by making the building multi use although this is tough in a recession.

We surely need new dressing rooms and spectator facilities in this stand as well as proper team benches so it isn''t just about the seats.

[Bill 1,788]

"Why does any loan for expansion have to be paid off over 10 years"

 

It is not. It is just a figure I used as a starting point.

 

Put it at around twenty years and you might start to get an annual repayment figure that doesn''t require such a big subsidy  But that is an awfully long time to be saddled with debt repayments. Change it to 5 years and we could be looking at a £4m plus subsidy. Relegation the year after and that is one helluva burden when the income will drop by a minimum of £30m, after parachute payments.

 

Put simply, there is not the demand at the ticket prices required that would make it financially viable/.

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,530]

[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]Be honest, a lot of people didn''t go to the Villa Cup game because, amongst financial reasons, they could only see Norwich losing, there wasn''t the belief. In fact, I bet we would have sold more tickets if this game had come up during our two promotion seasons. [/quote]

 

I agree Rudolph. The £30 excuse was a bit of a red herring. Another observation I made was that there were different faces amongst the season ticket seats around me yesterday.