16465 crowd V's Spurs - very poor = Hopefully lesson learnt David Mcnally!

[e10_yellow 0]

shefcanary - indeed, not been an S10 resident for a couple of years now, thought I''d better stop misrepresenting!

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="lincoln canary"][quote user="kingsway"]

Yes, 16465 against one of Englands biggest clubs, about our most local club in the Premeirship was not good and a firm indication that Mcnasty got the prices very wrong however much the few may argue otherwise. Many fans including myself voted with their feet because £30 adult admission price to watch two virtual 2nd string teams play in a cup competition neither club really cares about whether they go through or not was very overpriced!

 

£20 for adults would of seen a near sell out and a better atmosphere!

 

Anyway fair play to Mcnasty for admitting he got the pricing wrong on Radio Norfolk last night!

 

For Villa I would be happy to pay £25 for adults which I feel would attract a near sell out!

 

Please note David Mcnally!

[/quote]

 

 

In very simple terms;

 16,465 X £30 = £493,950

Near sell out @ £20 per ticket = 26,000 x £20 = £520,000

Diff = £26,050 ( lost revenue)

Relatively speaking 26k is not alot of money, so I fail to see how finacially Mcnally got it wrong. Thats also assumming £20 a ticket would have attracted a near sell out, personally I still think we would have struggled to get more then 20,000 in which financially makes £30 a ticket the correct decision. Hiking the ticket prices maybe moraly wrong, but Mcnally makes money, and last night I think he got it right.

I''m aware there are other factors that come into play such as more merchandise sales with larger crowds etc etc. but do people honestly believe we could have sold out last night? I don''t.

 

 

[/quote]

 

You really are priceless. You think he got it right even though he admits he got it wrong.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Norfolk Mustard"]

Tweet from McNally:

We didn''t sell out last night with adult prices at £30, clearly, and yet our revenues were better than a sell-out and a £20 adult price.

[/quote]



The margins are small.   What does McNally want - small crowds paying more money or larger crowds paying a bit less.  Its swings and roundabouts and the difference in income wouldn''t be that great.     "Fill the ground, whatever it takes" - should be the mantra. 



[/quote]

 

I am a multi-millionaire having won a vast sum on the lottery. For the quarter final, I want 10 seats and the rest (all 27,000 + of them) to remain empty. For this privilege, I am prepared to pay double £30 x 27,000, i.e. £1.62M. I assume this will be acceptable to everyone who argues for maximising income at every opportunity. 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Norfolk Mustard"]

Tweet from McNally:

We didn''t sell out last night with adult prices at £30, clearly, and yet our revenues were better than a sell-out and a £20 adult price.

[/quote]



The margins are small.   What does McNally want - small crowds paying more money or larger crowds paying a bit less.  Its swings and roundabouts and the difference in income wouldn''t be that great.     "Fill the ground, whatever it takes" - should be the mantra. 



[/quote]

 

Not just that, ldc. McNally has - very defensively - plucked that £20 figure from nowhere. Presumably if we had charged, say £22 for adults, or £25, it would have been worth our while.

I notice he is also asking for suggestions as to what they should charge for the next round. I have one. For the Aston Villa tie reinstate the pre-adult category so that 16-years-olds don''t have to pay whatever adult price he decides. Because these games are not just about short-term revenue. They are also about attracting in the next generation. Which in the longer run will benefit the club financially.

We had a crowd last night of probably only at the most 13,000 NCFC fans. Yet McNally and Bowkett are on record as saying there are 32,000 NCFC fans out there. Not on the evidence of last night. And certainly not if they continue with their current pricing policies.

[/quote]

 

There is another purely financial argument for the prices for the Villa game (which applied equally to last night, athough as it happens we got lucky). What would give us a better chance of reaching a money-spinning semi-final and possibly even the final  -  a crowd of  under 20,000 paying £30 or £35 or a crowd of 27,000 paying less? You only have to pose the question to know the answer.

[/quote]

 

But would we have sold out if the tickets had been £25? Or even £20? I have my doubts. How many more season ticket holders would have gone? Not many I''d wager. Tim mentions Brentford and MKDons but the attendances for those games were made up of casual fans. The season ticket holders who post on here shouldn''t class themselves as the norm. We now have 22,000 season ticket holders who are a different breed. Good supporters all of them, but it seems for the majority their ST is their football fix. The tickets and associated costs (and these costs are another reason they don''t attend) take up their budget for the year. Only something really special would warrant an extra spend. What this might have been was an exercise to find out how many more casuals would come if the stadium was expanded.

 

And like the comparisons with the MKDons and Brentford I already posted the following on another thread : In 1993. we played Spurs at home in the 4th round of the FA Cup. We were clear top of the Premiership and the attendance was 15,003. The following season we played Vitesse Arnhem at home in our first ever European match and the attendance was 16,818. So maybe we''ve never been that interested in cups during the modern era.

 

 

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]We have been poor in cups for years. People don''t have loads of spare money. We already play Spurs twice a season. It''s a Wednesday evening. It''s a League Cup game, even less attractive than the FA cup. All good reasons for people to not go. I went, but that''s because I won''t be able to make it to many of the November and early December games, so made sure I was home this week for both games, If tickets were £20 we would not have been near a sell out, and someone already did the math, an extra 10k tickets sold would have only made an extra £26 thousand profit, which is nothing to a premiership club. And it''s unlikely we would have sold those extra 10k tickets anyway, for the reasons I listed above.[/quote]

And exactly where did you buy your crystal ball?

[ex-greenoschin 0]

I cannot remember in recent history a mid week cup game ever being any where near a "sellout" whatever the ticket price.

Whether £30 was too much is a different question, but to take as read we would have sold out at £20/25 per ticket is purely wild speculation and already is becoming "fact" on here!

[NCFC REVERIE 0]

This was debated on canary call last night, somebody said children were five pound, don’t know if that’s true, if so the number crunchers are way of with the revenue estimates.

I have to say as a season ticket holder and lucky for me someone who can afford the thirty pound asking price (yes I did go) I would have preferred cheaper tickets and a full ground.

I sit in the lower Barclay the row behind me was completely empty, only seven in the row in front.

Well done to those who did sing, sterling job.

[Bill 1,788]

"What this might have been was an exercise to find out how many more casuals would come if the stadium was expanded"

 

 

I would suggest young master nutty you are exceedingly close to the truth, though I would think as McNally has said, they pretty much knew what £20 and £30 tickets prices would deliver in the way of attendance figures.

 

It does however possible drive the final nail into this twaddle about another 8000 fans clamouring to get into Carrow Road, and raises the concern of how much the club will have, or are, prepared to subsidise those fans - who on the evidence of last night will stay away if the ticket price is not low enough. It will also have swept away the other myth of the ''poor little horphans'' and other sundry mites who have been denied their chance to ''be introduced'' to Norwich City/Carrow Road. If their attendance is so dependendant on lower prices then it will remain as such in the future.

 

Fans turn up on the basis of a mixture of success and ticket price. Any lack of the former would exert a considerable down pressure on the later. With the costs of the new stand looking to be running at break even at best for the initial few years (and that with maximum attendances and current prices) there will be the thought that it is a risk and cost that the club doesn''t have to take at the moment, or in the near future.

 

For the record I would always prefer to see full house at Carrow Road. I''m not sure what Spurs views were on last nights ticket pricing - they do have a say in cup games, but given the sums involved I''m sure they would hve wanted to play in front of a bigger crowd. For the Villa game the club should go back to the old cup game system of issuing  ''voucher'' with the ticket giving preference over any semi final and final tickets. This will not only focus fans minds on attending, but introduce a sense of fairness into any ticket allocation/sales were we to go further.

 

And yes this was very much a big PR blunder by the club, I hope it has learned from this.

 

 

 

 

[BroadstairsR 2,138]

I thought that gate receipts were shared in cup games.

 

After covering overheads, Tottenham got 50% of the remainder surely. Any profit, or lack of it would have been shared with them making some of the above assumptions slightly askew.

 

This system used to be applied to league fixtures as well and suited the clubs with smaller support or grounds. It did us. When we first got into the old first division a visit to the likes of Old Trafford  or Highbury was a major financial bonus. Now an away league game provides no monetary gain.

 

The change of this to the present arrangement is yet another reason why some of the bigger clubs have developed into the mammoths they are now, even before Sky TV.

[Baldyboy 0]

I am a season ticket holder and unemployed so couldnt afford to go last night at £30 but if it had been twenty quid I would have gone, so hoping it will be that price for Judas'' return!!!!

[SwindonCanary 455]

The most embarrassing thing for me was the Spurs fans singing ''your grounds too big for you'' When the complete opposite is true

[Bill 1,788]

er, 13.000 empty seats suggest otherwise

 

 

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="lincoln canary"][quote user="kingsway"]

Yes, 16465 against one of Englands biggest clubs, about our most local club in the Premeirship was not good and a firm indication that Mcnasty got the prices very wrong however much the few may argue otherwise. Many fans including myself voted with their feet because £30 adult admission price to watch two virtual 2nd string teams play in a cup competition neither club really cares about whether they go through or not was very overpriced!

 

£20 for adults would of seen a near sell out and a better atmosphere!

 

Anyway fair play to Mcnasty for admitting he got the pricing wrong on Radio Norfolk last night!

 

For Villa I would be happy to pay £25 for adults which I feel would attract a near sell out!

 

Please note David Mcnally!

[/quote]

 

 

In very simple terms;

 16,465 X £30 = £493,950

Near sell out @ £20 per ticket = 26,000 x £20 = £520,000

Diff = £26,050 ( lost revenue)

Relatively speaking 26k is not alot of money, so I fail to see how finacially Mcnally got it wrong. Thats also assumming £20 a ticket would have attracted a near sell out, personally I still think we would have struggled to get more then 20,000 in which financially makes £30 a ticket the correct decision. Hiking the ticket prices maybe moraly wrong, but Mcnally makes money, and last night I think he got it right.

I''m aware there are other factors that come into play such as more merchandise sales with larger crowds etc etc. but do people honestly believe we could have sold out last night? I don''t.

 

 

[/quote]

 

You really are priceless. You think he got it right even though he admits he got it wrong.

[/quote]

Read his tweet, we made more in revenue last night with £30 tickets then we would have done with a sell out at £20 a ticket. Basically backing up my statement. So doesn''t really sound like he got it wrong does it? And anyhow he''s unlikely to come out and provocatively state his right and the fans are wrong is he? Numpty.

[Monty13 2,229]

You could have given kids tickets away for free, most still wouldn''t have come, if its a choice between free Norwich tickets to watch all their heroes sit on the bench or the one night of endless free sweets a year, most kids would choose the sweets!

Also while not wanting to call our CEO a liar as I don''t have access to the figures he does, but I''m not really sure how we wouldn''t have made more money from extra food, drink, programmes etc. even if the ticket revenue was the same, either that or wages for those working at carrow road are too high! It''s a very begrudging apology when he says I got it wrong but actually I was right....but he''s done wonders for this club so actually make these sort of mistakes, in the grand scheme of things, it makes little difference.

Oh and can we not bring the stadium expansion argument in to last night, last nights game was about as far away from an indicator of how many extra norwich fans would watch premiership games as you can get. Protests about ticket prices, Halloween, midweek, miserable cold weather, reserve side out, no indication of how many season ticket holders went.... it tells you zero.

[Highland Canary 76]

I''m minded to agree with Purple. I enjoyed last night. It would not have affected my decision if the price had been higher. Equally, I don''t share the view that had the price been say £20 the match would have sold out. We do not have a tradition - over recent years at least - of large attendances in cup competitions. Even at £20 I''d be surprised if we were to sell out against Villa. If we are to believe McNally''s rhetoric of the club being run as a ''mutual'', he would be using all of our cup matches to hook the next generation, kids for a quid/ family promotions - just like Cullen orchestrated so successively pre- and post- the opening of the Jarrold. As Purple points out it''s not that long ago that we were getting only 16k in Europe.

[kingsway 94]

["Tim Allman"]

The crowd was swelled by a huge Spurs away following, 3,000 plus no doubt quite a few in the home areas.  So City will have had around 13,000+ home fans in attendance.

 

Some perspective on this; the home crowd last night was roughly 500 more than were at the Cup  games at home to Brentford in the 2009/10 season and the disaster at home to MK Dons last season.

 

And as for trotting out the “...every spare penny line.....”, I think at £20 at ticket for adults + concessions we may well have sold another few thousand tickets and made at least same gate money.

 

But from a PR point of view NCFC have got away with it. There are some new storylines to be told; we won and we have a new hero to cheer in Mark Bunn, City are on a cup run and it had to be Villa at home in the quarter final.

 

I’ll remember the evening we beat Spurs for all these things but also for when a large number of Norwich fans said enough is enough as regards ticket prices.

 

 

We''d of definately got 20,000 at the very least at £20 for adults. I bet everyone on here knows of people who said no to paying £30 last night or were one of the stay aways who''d of definately gone if the adult price wouldn''t of been so overpriced. I fall into both category!

 

From a PR point of view I think the club didn''t get away with it. Mcnastys admittance on radio Norfolk at half time last night, then today Anglia tv mentioning the high ticket prices as part of their report on the game and Mcnasty tweeting fans today asking how they should charge for the next round!

[kingsway 94]

["Steady On..."]Yawn!

 

 

 

 

Don''t read the thread and post comments on it then!!

[kingsway 94]

["Howson is now!"]The thing with this competition is that it shouldn''t matter who Norwich are playing, they should (in my opinion) be the few games a season everyone can afford to go to. One good thing that Doomcaster got right was the ticketing deals he put together to build up our amazing fanbase. If you hike the ticket prices up everytime we draw a "big team" we''re not going to keep introducing people to our great club.

I didn''t go last night because on top of my monthly season ticket payment, I couldn''t justify a week''s food shopping money being spent on a cup game. Thank God I don''t have kids to take yet.

 

 

 I agree with most of your post but I understand if the club want to make tickets more pricey when playing one of Englands top clubs. Personnally I think the fairest price for last night woild have been the same price as the pre season friendlies against champions League opposition - £15 for adults. Although I''d of payed £20 saying fair play to the club for trying to push the price as high as they can but £30 was just blatant profiteering based on the very misguided theory that Norwichs great fanbase will pay whatever to watch games. Last nights crowd proved otherwise and I congratulate all the fans like me who would of definately attended had the adult price been fair cause from everything I''ve heard from Mcnasty on the subject indicates he realises the club got the price wrong!

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

After covering overheads, Tottenham got 50% of the remainder surely. .......... Now an away league game provides no monetary gain.

[/quote]

After match related overheads, the money from cup games is split at least three ways......the two clubs and the competition pool.

As for away league games, I believe NCFC get 5% from the sale of away tickets ....which is to cover the "costs of selling the tickets" 

[kingsway 94]

["Norfolk Mustard"]

Tweet from McNally:

We didn''t sell out last night with adult prices at £30, clearly, and yet our revenues were better than a sell-out and a £20 adult price.

 

 

Very much short term thinking that will lose the club fans. Last night was in the middle of school half term when kids are allowed to stay up later than usual. I suspect many parents were put of coming to games by the adult price. Like many others I was first hooked on going to games as a kid, but nowadays many kids won''t have that opportunity!

 

Many others without kids to take were also put of by the prices. Much better having 7-8000 more than the crowd that attended last night!

[kingsway 94]

["lake district canary"]["Norfolk Mustard"]

Tweet from McNally:

We didn''t sell out last night with adult prices at £30, clearly, and yet our revenues were better than a sell-out and a £20 adult price.

The margins are small.   What does McNally want - small crowds paying more money or larger crowds paying a bit less.  Its swings and roundabouts and the difference in income wouldn''t be that great.     "Fill the ground, whatever it takes" - should be the mantra. 

 

Filling the ground should be the mantra I agree but not at "whatever it takes".

 

I accept that adult prices wern''t going to be £10 like they were for the earlier rounds but £30 was ludicrous!

[kingsway 94]

["......and Smith must score."][="e10_yellow"]Agreed ldc. I don''t care about the club making another £20k or whatever, in the grand scheme of things it''s small change, I want to see a stadium full of Norwich fans getting behind the team and wanting to come back again and again, not 10,000 empty seats and Spurs taking the piss.Agree 100%.For the sake of squeezing a few extra quid out of the punters for a club with an income in the tens of millions the CEO got this one badly wrong.

 

I agree too!

 

I think we''d of got 22-23,000+ of adult prices were £20 so the income certainly wouldn''t of been less than last nights income!

 

I''ve been a long advocate for making Carrow Road bigger but if they take the p*ss with overpriced tickets than stadium expansion would be rendered uneccessary!

[kingsway 94]

["City1st"]

"What this might have been was an exercise to find out how many more casuals would come if the stadium was expanded"

 

 

I would suggest young master nutty you are exceedingly close to the truth, though I would think as McNally has said, they pretty much knew what £20 and £30 tickets prices would deliver in the way of attendance figures.

 

It does however possible drive the final nail into this twaddle about another 8000 fans clamouring to get into Carrow Road, and raises the concern of how much the club will have, or are, prepared to subsidise those fans - who on the evidence of last night will stay away if the ticket price is not low enough. It will also have swept away the other myth of the ''poor little horphans'' and other sundry mites who have been denied their chance to ''be introduced'' to Norwich City/Carrow Road. If their attendance is so dependendant on lower prices then it will remain as such in the future.

 

Fans turn up on the basis of a mixture of success and ticket price. Any lack of the former would exert a considerable down pressure on the later. With the costs of the new stand looking to be running at break even at best for the initial few years (and that with maximum attendances and current prices) there will be the thought that it is a risk and cost that the club doesn''t have to take at the moment, or in the near future.

 

For the record I would always prefer to see full house at Carrow Road. I''m not sure what Spurs views were on last nights ticket pricing - they do have a say in cup games, but given the sums involved I''m sure they would hve wanted to play in front of a bigger crowd. For the Villa game the club should go back to the old cup game system of issuing  ''voucher'' with the ticket giving preference over any semi final and final tickets. This will not only focus fans minds on attending, but introduce a sense of fairness into any ticket allocation/sales were we to go further.

 

And yes this was very much a big PR blunder by the club, I hope it has learned from this.

 

 

 

We regularly get 26,000+ home crowds for League games, have a waiting list for season tickets and if we had a 30,000+ ground we''d have to let the away club have 3000 if the demand warrented it and many clubs in the top flight would be able to sell that amount!

 

Theres no doubt that we could average 30,000+ crowds in the top flight with a 35,000 stadium but not if ticket prices are like last nights scandalous prices!

[nutty nigel 7,509]

So if it''s £30 for Villa the same thing will happen? The same people will boycott out of principle? Or would a cup tie against Villa be better value than against Spurs?

 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="kingsway"]

Theres no doubt that we could average 30,000+ crowds in the top flight with a 35,000 stadium but not if ticket prices are like last nights scandalous prices![/quote]

 

In my opinion absolutely no chance of that. For that to happen I believe we''d have to have at least 28,000 season ticket holders. I don''t believe these extra fans are there.

 

 

[Bill 1,788]

"Theres no doubt that we could average 30,000+ crowds in the top flight with a 35,000 stadium but not if ticket prices are like last nights scandalous prices!"

 

 

So we could afford to subsidise those that only want to turn up for the ''big'' games ?

 

The current figures are that if we expand the ground by 25%, we will correspondingly increase the income by 25%. However that would require the current high prices you complain of to still exist and every game to be a sellout.  Even on that basis the redevelopment would be at best breaking even - assuming no loss of income over the season or two that the Main Stand is being rebuilt either.

 

As nutty says these extra fans are not there, not I would add at the current prices.. Current prices for casual tickets are kept as high as they are because there is a surplus of demand over supply, likwise with season tickets. However that surplus of demand is a 1000 or so for each at best, with there being a fair bit of cross demand. It is NOT the 8000 needed for EVERY game - the figures required to avoid any redevelopment from needing a heavy subsidy.

 

 

"last nights game was about as far away from an indicator of how many extra norwich fans would watch premiership games as you can get"

 

 

Unfortunately, unlike you, the club has to factor in the possibilty that we may not have "premiership games" over the duration of the loan repayment.  As to it being an indicator I would trust the clubs judgement, based on years of number crunching over prices/attendances, travelling distances, season ticket renewals, season ticket holders buying cup tickets over your admittance of " I don''t have access to the figures he does"

 

Last nights prices and income were right, based solely on financial gain. Something I don''t doubt contributes towards McNallys bonus. However as admitted he got it wrong in the sense that most fans don''t see everything purely in terms of monetray gain. The club could ban fans from bringing in bottled drinks and flasks and would gain extra income, but at what cost, outside of money ?

 

Hopefully McNally is now stepping back a bit and recognising that whilst fans accept that being in the PL costs heavily, accept that where reasonable the club needs to make as much money as possible they want that money making to remain where reasonable, not simply where possible.

 

 

 

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="lincoln canary"][quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="lincoln canary"][quote user="kingsway"]

Yes, 16465 against one of Englands biggest clubs, about our most local club in the Premeirship was not good and a firm indication that Mcnasty got the prices very wrong however much the few may argue otherwise. Many fans including myself voted with their feet because £30 adult admission price to watch two virtual 2nd string teams play in a cup competition neither club really cares about whether they go through or not was very overpriced!

 

£20 for adults would of seen a near sell out and a better atmosphere!

 

Anyway fair play to Mcnasty for admitting he got the pricing wrong on Radio Norfolk last night!

 

For Villa I would be happy to pay £25 for adults which I feel would attract a near sell out!

 

Please note David Mcnally!

[/quote]

 

 

In very simple terms;

 16,465 X £30 = £493,950

Near sell out @ £20 per ticket = 26,000 x £20 = £520,000

Diff = £26,050 ( lost revenue)

Relatively speaking 26k is not alot of money, so I fail to see how finacially Mcnally got it wrong. Thats also assumming £20 a ticket would have attracted a near sell out, personally I still think we would have struggled to get more then 20,000 in which financially makes £30 a ticket the correct decision. Hiking the ticket prices maybe moraly wrong, but Mcnally makes money, and last night I think he got it right.

I''m aware there are other factors that come into play such as more merchandise sales with larger crowds etc etc. but do people honestly believe we could have sold out last night? I don''t.

 

 

[/quote]

 

You really are priceless. You think he got it right even though he admits he got it wrong.

[/quote] Read his tweet, we made more in revenue last night with £30 tickets then we would have done with a sell out at £20 a ticket. Basically backing up my statement. So doesn''t really sound like he got it wrong does it? And anyhow he''s unlikely to come out and provocatively state his right and the fans are wrong is he? Numpty.[/quote]

 

That''s pretty rich coming from an individual giving every impression of having an i q somewhat lower than his shoe size.

[tom cavendish 0]

All the season ticket holders I know say they are not interested in going to cup games with high ticket prices because the club doesn''t bother to take the games seriously and puts out reserve players.If the club are not willing to take the competition seriously then it can''t expect to charge high prices.From a marketing perspective, the cup games need to be viewed as an opportunity to expand the fan base beyond just the season ticket holders. To do so, the club has to fill the stadium by attracting those that normally can''t get, or can''t afford a ticket. Therefore, for cup games, the club should be looking to charge as much as possible whilst also filling the stadium.

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="kingsway"]

Theres no doubt that we could average 30,000+ crowds in the top flight with a 35,000 stadium but not if ticket prices are like last nights scandalous prices![/quote]

 

In my opinion absolutely no chance of that. For that to happen I believe we''d have to have at least 28,000 season ticket holders. I don''t believe these extra fans are there.

 [/quote]

The extra fans are there, but not at £30 per ticket to watch the reserves play in a cup competition the club doesn''t seem bothered about.

[kingsway 94]

Very true Tom Cavendish!

 

Nice to see you talking some sense. (at last!)