Ayala's loan and Ward's contract extension

[a1canary 0]

People have questioned James Vaughan''s loan but i think these decisions are far more questionable.

I would never have sent Ayala out, and while Ward''s contract extension had nothing to do with Hughton, it was very odd and may have influenced Hughton''s decision to send out Ayala.

I wonder if by prematurely extending Ward, Hughton''s hand was forced in terms of having to let another defender go before bringing more in. Although it''s easy to say in hindsight that he should have not bothered with brining in two centre backs (i don''t need to say which one) and kept hold of Ayala. We all thought Ayala - Bennett would have been our number one pairing if Lambert was still here so for Ward to then be given an extension and then told he''s surplus to requirements is pretty poor on the club''s part.

One of Lambert''s strengths was his ability to cover positions effectively when we had injuries - witness RMart''s centre back heroics after repeated injuries to defenders last season. This is a strength we have clearly lost at the moment. No Bassong, and we''re screwed it seems! Last year, we even managed to lose both centre backs DURING a game and were still able to cover the positions and win. Ayala would have been capable back up and in fact a class pairing alongside Bassong instead of Barnett. What Hughton has done by sending out Ayala and relegating Ryan Bennett behind Turner is show that he doesn''t trust the youngsters. This is part of why Lambert got so much from the youngsters because he showed and more importantly proved that he trusted them to do a job. Hughton has shown the opposite and made a rod for his own back by leaving us to rely too heavily on Bassong. You have to think if Lambert was still here, we would have Ayala, Bennett, R.Mart and probably A.N. other signing as centre backs with all being as able as each other. I don''t say this to continue bemoaning Lambert''s departure, but just to point out some of the changes we''ve seen which are contributing to our poor start.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

You could just as easily criticise Lambert for excluding Barnett. On the strength of what we''ve seen so far this season it could easily be argued that playing Ward and extending his contract whilst freezing out Barnett was detrimental to the club. Football managers see things differently. Since he signed Ward Lambert played him for virtually every minute he was available. In comes Hughton and we see Ward frozen out and Barnett playing every game. Different managers have different views on players. I personally think centreback was one of Lambert''s weaknesses. I don''t think he ever found a good combination. Hughton seems to have done that already with Bassong and Barnett. Time will tell.

 

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

It appeared Lambert and Barnett may have had a falling out. Ward is not even close to Premiership standard. Barnett would probably be very good in the Championship, but again, I wouldn''t class him as a player of Premiership standard..

Bassong looks like an excellent signing, and is far and away better than anyone else we have at the club. He does not look at of place in the Premiership.

[E.L.F. 0]

I believe you need to answer how many PL teams would have Ayala and Bennett in the starting XI or even on the sub''s bench.  Very few if any.  The back line of Garrido, Bassong, Barnett and Martin is the best we have and take away the first and last matches, have done reasonably well.  I think Lambert would have died to have our new back four.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

You''re back Chicken head! The club must be in turmoil[:O][;)]

 

If what you say is true both Lambert and Hughton have no idea about Premiership defending. You''d better send ''em your number buddy[I]

 

Nice to see you back BTW[Y]

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

Hardly, You can only pick from the players on your books. If we were to get relegated, I doubt we would see any premiership teams after the likes of Ward or Barnett.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="a1canary"]

 We all thought Ayala - Bennett would have been our number one pairing if Lambert was still here [/quote]

At no point did I ever think they would be our number one pairing and such a central defensive partnership would worry me a lot.

 

[Europe_93 11]

In this conversation we have forgotten Whitbread too, he was more than competent last season but we didn''t up issue his contract, yet we did Ward.  My own personal opinion is Whitbread would be in front of Barnett, Turner, Martin and at least on a par with Bennett. 

[Thumbelina 0]

[quote user="Europe_93"]

In this conversation we have forgotten Whitbread too, he was more than competent last season but we didn''t up issue his contract, yet we did Ward.  My own personal opinion is Whitbread would be in front of Barnett, Turner, Martin and at least on a par with Bennett. 

[/quote]

Whitbread? The centre back who is so good that he can''t get in the Leicester City side ahead of Wes Morgan and Shaun St Ledger?

So far Whitbread has only played on League Cup game for LCFC.

Whitbread lacks pace and the Mary Celeste turns quicker than him.


Barnett was partly to blame for several of the goals against Liverpool on Saturday and was also just as responsible as Turner was for Newcastle''s goal the previous weekend.  Barnett has therefore had one good game in three alongside Bassong.

Turner certainly isn''t the answer (another Michael Nelson) and can we really afford to give the young Ryan Bennett the time he needs to develop with us in such a pivotal position in the team.  If our two young goalkeepers are too young then why is it ok for us to spend serious money on a young centre back and look to him to step up to a level he is not ready for yet?

[ZLF 271]

The so impressive prem whitbread who cant make the championship leicester team,  with a league cup start hsi only appearance even from the bench so far this season?

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]Hardly, You can only pick from the players on your books. If we were to get relegated, I doubt we would see any premiership teams after the likes of Ward or Barnett.[/quote]

That may be true but similarly Premier League clubs wouldn''t be lining up to take Bennett, Ayala or Turner off our hands.

 

And judging by him coming here, you have to assume that there weren''t a great deal of offers in for Bassong either.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Thumbelina"]
Turner certainly isn''t the answer (another Michael Nelson)
[/quote]

More like a Dejan Stefanovic.

 

Been good in the past but not someone who is coming here to die for the shirt.

[a1canary 0]

Fair enough GJP - can''t speak for everyone obviously but Lambert was never afraid to go with youth at centre back and that set him apart from most other managers, for better or for worse. For worse according to Nutty and i probably wouldn''t argue with him.

But there''s no doubt in my mind Ayala was one of Lambert''s favoured CBs (when he was fit!). As for the other, i thought it might have been Whitbread. We know Ward wasn''t his number one, he supposedly fell out with Barnett or at least didn''t fancy him, and he let Whitbread go. So it was going to be Bennett or, as i said A.N.Other signing. Given what we know Lambert could achieve with his players, i think the suggestion that no other team would have had that centre back pairing is irrelevant. It doesn''t mean that we woulnd''t have had it or that it wouldn''t have been successful.

[pete 318]

The difference is Bassong whotalks and organises the CB''s without him nobody can organise the defence, all our CB''s including Ward and Ayala failed to communicate, perhaps if someone had let Barnett know against Villa he may not have played suicidal backpass,  With Bassong in the side there are still errors but significantly fewer.  Hope he is back for Chelsea if not another hiding.

[Thumbelina 0]

[quote user="a1canary"]

Fair enough GJP - can''t speak for everyone obviously but Lambert was never afraid to go with youth at centre back and that set him apart from most other managers, for better or for worse. For worse according to Nutty and i probably wouldn''t argue with him.

But there''s no doubt in my mind Ayala was one of Lambert''s favoured CBs (when he was fit!). As for the other, i thought it might have been Whitbread. We know Ward wasn''t his number one, he supposedly fell out with Barnett or at least didn''t fancy him, and he let Whitbread go. So it was going to be Bennett or, as i said A.N.Other signing. Given what we know Lambert could achieve with his players, i think the suggestion that no other team would have had that centre back pairing is irrelevant. It doesn''t mean that we woulnd''t have had it or that it wouldn''t have been successful.

[/quote]

Where has this fell out rumour/bull come from?  Lambert simply didn''t rate Barnett after seeing his limitations at Premier League level and quite frankly who can blame him. Barnett has had more poor games at this level for us than good games, including this season.

[Thumbelina 0]

[quote user="pete"]The difference is Bassong whotalks and organises the CB''s without him nobody can organise the defence, all our CB''s including Ward and Ayala failed to communicate, perhaps if someone had let Barnett know against Villa he may not have played suicidal backpass,  With Bassong in the side there are still errors but significantly fewer.  Hope he is back for Chelsea if not another hiding.[/quote]

You are correct in what you say re: Bassong organising the defence. Although you are incorrect in saying that Ward is not an organiser of the back four.  Russell Martin tries his best to marshall them too and Garrido appears to be able to communicate a little too.  Communication is a major fault in the games of Ryan Bennett (to be expected at his young age, but he really needs to come out of his shell if he is to progress), Barnett, Ayala, Turner and all of the other centre backs that we have sold over the last year or two.

I sometimes wonder if people watch the games rather than spouting their pre conceived and ill informed opinions on certain players.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="a1canary"]

But there''s no doubt in my mind Ayala was one of Lambert''s favoured CBs (when he was fit!). As for the other, i thought it might have been Whitbread. We know Ward wasn''t his number one, [/quote]

Clearly Ward was a number one CB for Lambert. He played pretty much every game for us in the Championship (Lambert sang his praises) and then as soon as he was available to play in the Prem Lambert had him in the team.

 

Ward was a big Lambert favourite.

 

[a1canary 0]

I guess my point is - and it''s not very clear i know! - if you were told we were going to lose two of last year''s crop of centre backs in Barnett, Ward, Ayala, Whitbread, Bennett, you would have chosen the first two to go no question, and i think i DO speak for everyone when i say that, surely!

As it happens, we''ve lost the best two in Whitbread and Ayala, kept Ward but put him out of the squad, and gained Bassong (good) and Turner (not good - apparently). But the net result is that out of a huge crop of centre backs, we somehow appear to be left with just one who can really be said to be up to the job and a promising youngster who could be up to the job but who will perhaps not get the chance to show it under Hughton. But i hope CH gives him a go because he''s better than Barnett and according to everyone is better than Turner too although i have to reserve judegement there until i''ve seen Turner or he''s had a bit more time to acclimatise. An £8m defender can''t have just become rubbish as soon as he stepped through the doors. A new back four always takes time to settle.

[a1canary 0]

[quote user="Thumbelina"][quote user="a1canary"]

Fair enough GJP - can''t speak for everyone obviously but Lambert was never afraid to go with youth at centre back and that set him apart from most other managers, for better or for worse. For worse according to Nutty and i probably wouldn''t argue with him.

But there''s no doubt in my mind Ayala was one of Lambert''s favoured CBs (when he was fit!). As for the other, i thought it might have been Whitbread. We know Ward wasn''t his number one, he supposedly fell out with Barnett or at least didn''t fancy him, and he let Whitbread go. So it was going to be Bennett or, as i said A.N.Other signing. Given what we know Lambert could achieve with his players, i think the suggestion that no other team would have had that centre back pairing is irrelevant. It doesn''t mean that we woulnd''t have had it or that it wouldn''t have been successful.

[/quote]

Where has this fell out rumour/bull come from?  Lambert simply didn''t rate Barnett after seeing his limitations at Premier League level and quite frankly who can blame him. Barnett has had more poor games at this level for us than good games, including this season.

[/quote]

 

Thanks for that Thumbelina. Someone above me said they fell out - not use of the word supposedly. My only point there was that Barnett was not part of Lambert''s preferred CB pairing. 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="a1canary"][quote user="Thumbelina"][quote user="a1canary"]

Fair enough GJP - can''t speak for everyone obviously but Lambert was never afraid to go with youth at centre back and that set him apart from most other managers, for better or for worse. For worse according to Nutty and i probably wouldn''t argue with him.

But there''s no doubt in my mind Ayala was one of Lambert''s favoured CBs (when he was fit!). As for the other, i thought it might have been Whitbread. We know Ward wasn''t his number one, he supposedly fell out with Barnett or at least didn''t fancy him, and he let Whitbread go. So it was going to be Bennett or, as i said A.N.Other signing. Given what we know Lambert could achieve with his players, i think the suggestion that no other team would have had that centre back pairing is irrelevant. It doesn''t mean that we woulnd''t have had it or that it wouldn''t have been successful.

[/quote]

Where has this fell out rumour/bull come from?  Lambert simply didn''t rate Barnett after seeing his limitations at Premier League level and quite frankly who can blame him. Barnett has had more poor games at this level for us than good games, including this season.

[/quote]

 

Thanks for that Thumbelina. Someone above me said they fell out - not use of the word supposedly. My only point there was that Barnett was not part of Lambert''s preferred CB pairing. 

[/quote]

 

Barnett was not part of the back up to Lambert''s preferred CB pairing. Just as Ward is not part of the back up to Hughton''s. Given that for the majority of the time Ward was always Lamberts 1st choice and Barnett was so far down Lambert''s pecking order this is a huge difference of opinion. But that''s all it is. For a CB to be signed by Norwich he must be good enough. To suggest that one is total garbage and not up to it is just messageboard rhetoric. I personally don''t see much between Ward and Barnett. What do you lot think?

 

Lambert never gave us a pair did he? After Doc and Nelly who played well together in League One I never felt we had a good combination. If Bassong and Barnett prove to be a good combination then Hughton will have done something that Lambert couldn''t do last season.

 

And it''s not about whether a player would be wanted by another Prem club. That''s a ridiculous argument. When we were first in the top division our pairing was Forbes and Stringer. A good pair who played well together. Probably not wanted by other top division clubs though.

 

For a defence to play well they have to play together. Let''s hope we''re lucky with injuries so that happens.

 

[GJP 79]

[quote user="a1canary"]

I guess my point is - and it''s not very clear i know! - if you were told we were going to lose two of last year''s crop of centre backs in Barnett, Ward, Ayala, Whitbread, Bennett, you would have chosen the first two to go no question, and i think i DO speak for everyone when i say that, surely!

[/quote]

Nope. You do not speak for me on that one and I know of others who wouldn''t see it that way either.

 

Ryan Bennett has got a shot at being a little bit better than he is now but if doesn''t get any better than he is at the moment then we''ve overpaid for him.

 

And that''s the thing with Ayala as well. We''ve paid out money for both these guys and it''s hard to see that they offer any improvement. To me they''re a sideways move at best.

 

Bennett offers little with the ball and lacks pace and Ayala is good on the ball but is weak defensively.

[Thumbelina 0]

[quote user="a1canary"]

I guess my point is - and it''s not very clear i know! - if you were told we were going to lose two of last year''s crop of centre backs in Barnett, Ward, Ayala, Whitbread, Bennett, you would have chosen the first two to go no question, and i think i DO speak for everyone when i say that, surely!

As it happens, we''ve lost the best two in Whitbread and Ayala, kept Ward but put him out of the squad, and gained Bassong (good) and Turner (not good - apparently). But the net result is that out of a huge crop of centre backs, we somehow appear to be left with just one who can really be said to be up to the job and a promising youngster who could be up to the job but who will perhaps not get the chance to show it under Hughton. But i hope CH gives him a go because he''s better than Barnett and according to everyone is better than Turner too although i have to reserve judegement there until i''ve seen Turner or he''s had a bit more time to acclimatise. An £8m defender can''t have just become rubbish as soon as he stepped through the doors. A new back four always takes time to settle.

[/quote]

Well you don''t speak for me when you say that that and I am petty sure that there are many other NCFC fans whose views are not represented by that comment either.

Personally I would have let Whitbread go when his contract expired (good decision in my book) and sent Ayala out on loan.  I would also have kept Ward in the squad and left Lappin out of the 25.  In my opinion Lappin is very unlikely to play another Premier League game for us, unless both Garrido and Tierney are both injured at the same time with all of the midfielders that we currently have on our books.  I would also have left Chris Martin out of our 25 and not signed Bunn.  This would have left another two free space in our 25 man squad.  Rudd or Steer were more than adequate to be used as back up to Ruddy while the other one were getting sent out for further first team experience.

As for your later comment re: the £8 million transfer fee you claim Sunderland paid for Turner.  I was under the impression it was actually an undisclosed fee, which was considerably lower than that, as didn''t his previous clubs receive a significant amount of the money which Steve Bruce paid for for him?  If so then I would also suggest that it is looking like a far better manager than than Bruce, in Martin O''Neill has done very well in moving Michael Turner on to NCFC for another undisclosed transfer fee to NCFC this summer.

Whether we should''ve purchased another centre back, or not, is open to debate.

[Legend Iwan 30]

A1, you certainly don''t speak for me there either. Whitbread would always be my first choice to go (due to continued injuries), followed by loaning one of the two youngsters out as we can''t blood them both at the same time. I have no issues with the outs of our defence.

[Thumbelina 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Barnett was not part of the back up to Lambert''s preferred CB pairing. Just as Ward is not part of the back up to Hughton''s. Given that for the majority of the time Ward was always Lamberts 1st choice and Barnett was so far down Lambert''s pecking order this is a huge difference of opinion. But that''s all it is. For a CB to be signed by Norwich he must be good enough. To suggest that one is total garbage and not up to it is just messageboard rhetoric. I personally don''t see much between Ward and Barnett. What do you lot think?

 

Lambert never gave us a pair did he? After Doc and Nelly who played well together in League One I never felt we had a good combination. If Bassong and Barnett prove to be a good combination then Hughton will have done something that Lambert couldn''t do last season.

 

And it''s not about whether a player would be wanted by another Prem club. That''s a ridiculous argument. When we were first in the top division our pairing was Forbes and Stringer. A good pair who played well together. Probably not wanted by other top division clubs though.

 

For a defence to play well they have to play together. Let''s hope we''re lucky with injuries so that happens.

 

[/quote]

 

I don''t see much between Ward, Barnett or young Ryan Bennett either.

As for being lucky with injuries. We should''ve planned for that and haven''t.

We left one of those three out of our 25 man squad, while we replaced with somebody who after just a few games the majority are now questioning as worse than those three.

[viennacanary 0]

The best centre backs on our books i would say are in the following order:

1. Bassong

2. Ward

3. Bennett (potentially good enough but needs some work)

4. Ayala

5. Barnett

6. Turner

But for centre backs is often not solely about the individual, it''s about the pairing.

I would say, despite his poor displays so far that turner might be decent if played with the right partner and system but the simple fact is at present it''s not working so we need a change on Saturday and need Bassong back from injury.

The strength of centre backs often come down to pairings and how they play together. I think we need to find the right partner for Bassong and build on that. Let them get an understanding and experience of playing together, and working on a system with the midfield that provides stability.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Thumbelina"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Barnett was not part of the back up to Lambert''s preferred CB pairing. Just as Ward is not part of the back up to Hughton''s. Given that for the majority of the time Ward was always Lamberts 1st choice and Barnett was so far down Lambert''s pecking order this is a huge difference of opinion. But that''s all it is. For a CB to be signed by Norwich he must be good enough. To suggest that one is total garbage and not up to it is just messageboard rhetoric. I personally don''t see much between Ward and Barnett. What do you lot think?

 

Lambert never gave us a pair did he? After Doc and Nelly who played well together in League One I never felt we had a good combination. If Bassong and Barnett prove to be a good combination then Hughton will have done something that Lambert couldn''t do last season.

 

And it''s not about whether a player would be wanted by another Prem club. That''s a ridiculous argument. When we were first in the top division our pairing was Forbes and Stringer. A good pair who played well together. Probably not wanted by other top division clubs though.

 

For a defence to play well they have to play together. Let''s hope we''re lucky with injuries so that happens.

 

[/quote]

 

I don''t see much between Ward, Barnett or young Ryan Bennett either.

As for being lucky with injuries. We should''ve planned for that and haven''t.

We left one of those three out of our 25 man squad, while we replaced with somebody who after just a few games the majority are now questioning as worse than those three.

[/quote]

 

Whatever are you going on about. The majority of the posters wanted RID of Ward long before he was left out of the squad. Your opinion is fine even though I disagree but don''t claim it''s that of the majority. I would say that Bassong, Barnett, Benett and Turner is as strong as we had last season. If we were unlucky enough to have 3 out then Whittaker could step in.

 

 

[ZLF 271]

Bassong - head and shoulders better than all other centre backs;  has a good partnership with Barnett,  which he may be able to repeat with either Turner or Bennett,  but as the first one tried is working so far why change it.

Barnett - has pace, which we lack and helps hm get out of some poor positioning problems. is strong in the air,  benefits from a strong partner but poor with  the ball.

Bennett - clearly learning the game still,  but is ok in the air and has a little pace;  would like to see how he pairs up with Bassong,  looked better in defence than either whitbread or ward at the end of last season,  worth persevering with.

Ayala - strong tackling and good with the ball,  weak in the air,  has potential

Ward - I was not impressed with him either in the champs or the prem, reads the game poorly while he had enough pace to make last ditch blocks in the champs could not repeat the same in the prem. Does use the ball well  so not unhappy he was left out;  but Lambert rated him

Turner - looked poor partnering Bennett & Barnett; needs a break now but could be ok with bassong the only player he is yet to have had a mare with...

 

I am happy that we have the right 4,  especially as Turner is a CH purchase and was always going to make the short list. 

[Thumbelina 0]

[quote user="viennacanary"]The best centre backs on our books i would say are in the following order: 1. Bassong 2. Ward 3. Bennett (potentially good enough but needs some work) 4. Ayala 5. Barnett 6. Turner But for centre backs is often not solely about the individual, it''s about the pairing. I would say, despite his poor displays so far that turner might be decent if played with the right partner and system but the simple fact is at present it''s not working so we need a change on Saturday and need Bassong back from injury. The strength of centre backs often come down to pairings and how they play together. I think we need to find the right partner for Bassong and build on that. Let them get an understanding and experience of playing together, and working on a system with the midfield that provides stability.[/quote]

I agree with that 100% other than I would probably include Russell Martin on a level pegging with Bennett and Ayala when he is played at CB. As for Nutty Nigels irrelevant nonsense up above I suppose that he has canvassed the opinion of all Norwich City fans?

Just because a number of posters on this messageboard believe in a certain view then they must be correct.  You know very little about football Nutty Nigel, I would stick to your Pink Un Pickers Picks rather than trying to offer a view on where Chris Hughton is going wrong and the qualities of our central defenders.

[a1canary 0]

OK ok, i knew that suggesting i speak for fellow fans is putting myself up to be shot at! So hands up to that.

I just honestly felt, from discussions previously on this board, that of the central defenders we finished last season with - Barnett, Ward, Whitbread, Bennett, Ayala - the vast majority of fans would say Barnett and Ward would be the first two you''d replace. Clearly not!

As for Turner, i thought i read somewhere that he went for £8m, it''s not my figure, but whatever, i am not going to join in the public flogging over a player i haven''t seen play, live or otherwise.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Thumbelina"]

[quote user="viennacanary"]The best centre backs on our books i would say are in the following order: 1. Bassong 2. Ward 3. Bennett (potentially good enough but needs some work) 4. Ayala 5. Barnett 6. Turner But for centre backs is often not solely about the individual, it''s about the pairing. I would say, despite his poor displays so far that turner might be decent if played with the right partner and system but the simple fact is at present it''s not working so we need a change on Saturday and need Bassong back from injury. The strength of centre backs often come down to pairings and how they play together. I think we need to find the right partner for Bassong and build on that. Let them get an understanding and experience of playing together, and working on a system with the midfield that provides stability.[/quote]

I agree with that 100% other than I would probably include Russell Martin on a level pegging with Bennett and Ayala when he is played at CB. As for Nutty Nigels irrelevant nonsense up above I suppose that he has canvassed the opinion of all Norwich City fans?

Just because a number of posters on this messageboard believe in a certain view then they must be correct.  You know very little about football Nutty Nigel, I would stick to your Pink Un Pickers Picks rather than trying to offer a view on where Chris Hughton is going wrong and the qualities of our central defenders.

[/quote]

 

You''re a strange animal Smudger. I think you will find that I didn''t go along with the majority view on here about Ward. I also didn''t go along with the view about Whitbread. What is conveniently forgotten is how many mistakes Whitbread made. I reckon it''s because he looked stylish on the ball. His defending wasn''t any better than Nelson''s only the rest of his game was. And then for all the bleating he didn''t get a club anywhere near as good as ours.

 

However, the opinion, that we didn''t share, about Ward isn''t just confined to this messageboard. I sat somewhere different on Saturday and when I commented that I couldn''t see how Turner was better than Ward the view of those around me was that there was nothing in it because "they didn''t rate Ward either".

 

Why don''t you show us how much you know about football by taking part in the PUPs thread? Surely one of you would stand a chance of doing well....