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Hardhouse44

My view of the situation for what it's worth.

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I saw a post on here a few days ago saying we should expect steady improvements season after season. That would mean surely in 15 years time we''d win the Champions League. Another calming that the poster is beginning to lose interest.It seems that success has spoilt us all a little and we throw a hissy fit as soon as we can''t have what we want. This people is football supporting, just when you think your on the up the rug is pulled out from under your feet. Thing go wrong, plans go asunder and times get hard. Reality hit home. So what do we/the club do. Sack the Manger? could do, but who do we get to replace him? will he be any better? and can we afford to? Can we afford not to?Truth is nobody really knows. Was Lambert a genius that could make mere pub players play like superstars. Ask Villa Fans. What I see is a manger struggling to find his best team and struggling with a run of fixtures that are not easy. Having said all that I do think he''s playing the wrong way and players. Our defense is shocking at best but it was shocking last season. What we did last season was attack and attack well. This term we have struggled to attack in numbers and paid the price.A midfield containing Howson, Johnson and Tetty is not for me a balanced line up. They all want to do a relatively similar job. We need to add flair and attack in the centre and we need more vision. Howson has for me at least be almost anonymous so far this season and look lightweight in the tackle. Johnson is committed and strong but footballing ability is not high and he couldn''t hit a barn door with a banjo.I think that we saw clearly on Saturday that packing the midfield with defensive midfielders is never going keep out the likes of Chelsea out and is not going to be creative enough against the likes of the Stokes and Wigans which we can expect to compete with.Back to attack and back to some of the players who kept us up last year would be my recommendation Mr Hughton. Pilks, Barnett, Fox all player who are missing out while other get in. Bring back the goals and you''ll bring back the hope.Well I think so.OTBC

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I''m glad you included the run of fixtures.Last season from Fulham a, QPR H, Spurs away, WHU A, Newcastle a, Liverpool h, Chelsea a and Arsenal H we got a massive 6 points. Boo Lambert  out! Now obviously we didnt play WHU but it just proves what a hard run of fixtures we''ve really had.

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Having played Fulham, QPR, West Ham, Newcastle and Liverpool (who were below us and still haven''t won at home), I''m really amazed that we have any points at all.

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[quote user="paul moy"]Having played Fulham, QPR, West Ham, Newcastle and Liverpool (who were below us and still haven''t won at home), I''m really amazed that we have any points at all.[/quote]You know full well the point I was making yet you''ve twisted  it completely.If watching Norwich makes you so sad, then why pray tell, do you bother?

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" I''m really amazed that we have any points at all "

 

though I doubt the rest of us are really amazed (or even amazed) that your post has no postive points about the club or team at all either

 

 

 

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Great post HH, sums up what many are thinking, even people''s reactions vary a lot more, as you''d expect.

I think the ''continuous improvement'' thread goes right in near the top of "dumbest pinkun posts ever" charts! CH is still looking for his best team, that much is obvious. When Lambert arrived here, he had plenty of time to work on the best set up/personnel and to evolve that as we moved forward. Starting in the Premier League with a big new squad and not knowing any of them was always going to be tough. Definitely not a place for uncertainty and expermintation. Whatever anyone thinks right now, replacing him at this point would be madness for all the reasons you give and would send us right back to square one, mid season. Unless we were able to bring in the sort of manager that could make an immediate impact like Redknapp. Which won''t happen.

On the plus side, Holt, Hoolahan and Tettey are key players that you''d think are cementing themselves in his thinking and our attacking play is improving albeit still not up to last year''s standards. On the downside his current favoured back 4 is a worry - i think it could be much better, as others have said (e.g. Bennett at RB, my gran at CB instead of Barnett). This goes right to the heart of the problem compared to last year: defending just as badly overall - better at times, worse at times - and attacking less effectively.

Then there is his lack of imagination in the formations/substitutions which means we don''t have the ability to give teams a different challenge to deal with in the course of a game. This was one of Lambert''s greatest tactical attributes imo and one that, unfortunately, is not the norm among most managers. Aside from the likes of Ferguson and Moyes, how many can you think of that make a change that almost always makes a difference.

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[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"][quote user="paul moy"]Having played Fulham, QPR, West Ham, Newcastle and Liverpool (who were below us and still haven''t won at home), I''m really amazed that we have any points at all.[/quote]

You know full well the point I was making yet you''ve twisted  it completely.

If watching Norwich makes you so sad, then why pray tell, do you bother?
[/quote]

I don''t see how I''ve twisted your point which was to state how difficult those fixtures were. I''m simply stating the opposite opinion. Fulham, Newcastle, QPR and Liverpool have all struggled to get results this season (except against us maybe) so how in all honesty can they really be difficult fixtures. My view is that our defeatist attitude ( plus other negative factors) to those games made them difficult. Just my opinion of course.      

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" how many can you think of that make a change that almost always makes a difference"

 

Yes, at times he appears to set out his stall then use the substitutes to merely change the personel doing a certain task rather than change the tactics

 

ie rather like changing an fielder at cricket than changing the position of the fielders - he''s at silly mid on and all the balls are being hit over his head so I will put someone else there instead to see if he can do any better

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Grant Holt''s 3 year contract said: "I''m glad you included the run of fixtures.Last season from Fulham a, QPR H, Spurs away, WHU A, Newcastle a, Liverpool h, Chelsea a and Arsenal H we got a massive 6 points. Boo Lambert  out! Now obviously we didnt play WHU but it just proves what a hard run of fixtures we''ve really had."
Hmm, rather strange point. If it proves what a hard run in we have had, then the fact that we got 6 points from those 6 games (I''ve excluded West Ham) last season but have only got 2 points from those 6 games (again excluding West Ham) this season, shows that we were coping with a hard run in three times better last season than we are this!
Not to mention the fact that if we actually had 6 points at the moment, we''d be in 14th in the league, not 19th!

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I give up.It''s like people expect us to beat the likes of Newcastle, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.Hughton out because we lost to 3 of last seasons top 6!Well so did Lambert but you all liked him so it''s fine...

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[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]I give up.It''s like people expect us to beat the likes of Newcastle, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.Hughton out because we lost to 3 of last seasons top 6!Well so did Lambert but you all liked him so it''s fine...[/quote][Y]

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]I give up.It''s like people expect us to beat the likes of Newcastle, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.Hughton out because we lost to 3 of last seasons top 6!Well so did Lambert but you all liked him so it''s fine...[/quote][Y][/quote]Blimey, Morty agreeing with CT, that''s a first! [:D]

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[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]I give up.

It''s like people expect us to beat the likes of Newcastle, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.

Hughton out because we lost to 3 of last seasons top 6!

Well so did Lambert but you all liked him so it''s fine...
[/quote]

If they''re off form we should try to beat them. I''m not saying we should expect to win, but to lose 5-2 to Liverpool was poor and we could have attacked Newcastle more and who knows but we may have got something. QPR was a poor result and so was West Ham. If you don''t try to win you don''t win.  I don''t expect to beat Arsenal but please let''s give their defenders something to think about.  

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[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]I give up.It''s like people expect us to beat the likes of Newcastle, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.Hughton out because we lost to 3 of last seasons top 6!Well so did Lambert but you all liked him so it''s fine...[/quote][Y][/quote]Blimey, Morty agreeing with CT, that''s a first! [:D][/quote]Who is this CT you speak of?! Sounds like a stand up guy though...

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I acknowledge the fixtures and the fact that it''s a difficult time for a new manager to assess his squad and still deliver. I don''t really hve a problem with the results as I didn''t expect anything different.

What does worry me a little is Mr Hughton''s general negativity, because I think that goes to the root of things which is that, at the moment, he doesn''t know or trust his players. Every footballer needs a run of games to become effective, but persevering with Howson in a defensive role effetively means we are virtually playing with 10 men.

I''m hopeful that in the second half of the season we will see an effective Butterfield and that the return of Elliot Bennett and Pilkington will see us use more width. I remain very confident that we will finish comfortably above the relegation zone because I am convinced that we have better players than Southampton, Reading and Wigan to name but three.

But we do have to be more positive.

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I''m not really disagreeing or agreeing with the general point you''re making GH3YC, I''m just saying your stats to back it up are rather poor. If you want to say that we had poor performances under Lambert as well, or that we''ve had a hard run in so far, I''d agree.

But the thing is, by comparing the results this season to the exact counterparts from last season, it''s actually you who seems to be trying to suggest what we should or should not be expecting. Why say we "only" got 6 points from those 6 games last season if we''ve only got 2 from them this? Why say we "only" would have 6 points from those six games, when 6 points from them this season would see us in 14th?

It would have been far more effective simply to show their league positions over the past few seasons and then say "why would you expect us to beat them when they''ve finished so high for the last x years?" Instead, you''ve made the comparison yourself, and it completely undermines your own argument!

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[quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="Grant Holts 3 year contract"]I give up.

It''s like people expect us to beat the likes of Newcastle, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.

Hughton out because we lost to 3 of last seasons top 6!

Well so did Lambert but you all liked him so it''s fine...
[/quote]

If they''re off form we should try to beat them. I''m not saying we should expect to win, but to lose 5-2 to Liverpool was poor and we could have attacked Newcastle more and who knows but we may have got something. QPR was a poor result and so was West Ham. If you don''t try to win you don''t win.  I don''t expect to beat Arsenal but please let''s give their defenders something to think about.  

[/quote]

QPR we could have done better, but it was only a questionable penalty and a rebound after encroaching that stopped us winning... Also R Martin hit the cross bar, and possibly had Green been sent off for handball it might have been different (although that is not guaranteed). Spurs we could have won if we''d been given the penalty we should have got on Morrison - but like last year we didn''t get one). West Ham we had 14 shots on target with a number of them excellent saves by Jaaskelainen.... Even Newcastle we hit the woodwork and had one cleared off the line. I don''t think it''s fair to say they haven''t tried to win, a lot of the time the margins have been so fine, but just haven''t gone our way. That is not an excuse for Fulham/L''pool though.

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This is Glenn Roeder all over again, you can harp on all you want about chances we created and X,Y,Z but we have started accepting defeat again. At least when we lost to Chelsea and Fulham away last season we fronted up and had a go, we have to give Hughton time because the season is still young and he has not been here long but he will be sacked before the end of the season, it just isn''t clicking, we gave up our attacking intent to be more defensivley sound and our goal difference is already a joke. We have a powder puff strike force that is balanced on the back of Grant Holt and Simeon Jackson (who isn''t particuliarly consistent). We are going down and hard unless either the manager goes or we spend a shit load on a quality striker in January.

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Good OP with a sense of perspective.

Allowing for our tough start fixture-wise, am I alone in wondering whether CH has approached his new job with a ‘one step backwards & (hopefully) two steps forwards’ mentality?

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Paul Moy wrote:

If they''re off form we should try to beat them. I''m not saying we should expect to win, but to lose 5-2 to Liverpool was poor and we could have attacked Newcastle more and who knows but we may have got something. QPR was a poor result and so was West Ham. If you don''t try to win you don''t win. I don''t expect to beat Arsenal but please let''s give their defenders something to think about.

This is the analysis that I would share. I think we should have 6 points after our games - to get close to 40 points - so only 3 more than we currently have. The point is the tactics we''re employing, team choice etc don''t give me any confidence that we''ll beat Stoke or Reading - games that we need at least 4 points from. Discount Aresenal and Villa.

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People have to ask themselves what they want.   Do they want to develop as a side in the premiership  or not?     If you just want to be cannon fodder then carrying on after last season playing in the same way - bags of enthusiasm and being thrashed by Man City and Liverpool (yes we were thrashed last season at Cara Rd by Liverpool, in case anyone had forgotten).   then that is fine.

Imo Hughton is trying to take us on from there and develop more composure and balanced style of football.   That doesn''t mean defensive - it simply means  raising the overall standard of the football throughout the team.     This has to happen - last season was the top of the tree for Lambert''s team. We had to develop from there.  

Now I know this hasn''t worked - yet - but why people are so impatient bothers me.   No one wants to lose matches like we have been doing, but you have to take in the bigger picture and the overall  strategy of the club, not just this season.    It may be that as Hughton''s approach and the new players gel with the old  will take longer  to work.    If that ultimately means we go down this season then that is something we will have to put up with.   Hopefully, if things improve we will stay up,  but the way some people are talking on here its like they are not supporting the club.    If you don''t buy in to what the club are trying to do - building a stronger more sustainable team - what are you supporting for??       Results don''t lie but sometimes - just sometimes - you have to look beyond them.     It is still early days.    We have the rest of the season to build.   We are not a super rich club and we have to accept that.  We have to build slowly.   Lambert was in a hurry.   His approach this season may not have worked.  We have what many people thought - and still think - is the best candidate at Norwich to take us on.  

Time to keep your nerve and see how things develop.    Look at some of the performances for positive signs instead of just seeing negative things.  Of course the team has to defend better.   We were probably always going to lose against Liverpool and Chelsea and may do against Arsenal - but there is still time to turn it round.   There are two ways of being relegated.  One as a team down and out and another with a more positive team developing attitude - so you can hit the ground running. 

Its a work in progress - I''m not saying we are going down, I am saying we are trying to develop.   But one thing I do know is that we have to give Hughton the time to get things going his way.   And I don''t mean just this season. 

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[quote user="lake district canary"]People have to ask themselves what they want.   Do they want to develop as a side in the premiership  or not?     If you just want to be cannon fodder then carrying on after last season playing in the same way - bags of enthusiasm and being thrashed by Man City and Liverpool (yes we were thrashed last season at Cara Rd by Liverpool, in case anyone had forgotten).   then that is fine.


[/quote]

Oh the irony !!!  [:D]

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[quote user="lake district canary"]People have to ask themselves what they want.   Do they want to develop as a side in the premiership  or not?     If you just want to be cannon fodder then carrying on after last season playing in the same way - bags of enthusiasm and being thrashed by Man City and Liverpool (yes we were thrashed last season at Cara Rd by Liverpool, in case anyone had forgotten).   then that is fine.

Imo Hughton is trying to take us on from there and develop more composure and balanced style of football.   That doesn''t mean defensive - it simply means  raising the overall standard of the football throughout the team.     This has to happen - last season was the top of the tree for Lambert''s team. We had to develop from there.  

Now I know this hasn''t worked - yet - but why people are so impatient bothers me.   No one wants to lose matches like we have been doing, but you have to take in the bigger picture and the overall  strategy of the club, not just this season.    It may be that as Hughton''s approach and the new players gel with the old  will take longer  to work.    If that ultimately means we go down this season then that is something we will have to put up with.   Hopefully, if things improve we will stay up,  but the way some people are talking on here its like they are not supporting the club.    If you don''t buy in to what the club are trying to do - building a stronger more sustainable team - what are you supporting for??       Results don''t lie but sometimes - just sometimes - you have to look beyond them.     It is still early days.    We have the rest of the season to build.   We are not a super rich club and we have to accept that.  We have to build slowly.   Lambert was in a hurry.   His approach this season may not have worked.  We have what many people thought - and still think - is the best candidate at Norwich to take us on.  

Time to keep your nerve and see how things develop.    Look at some of the performances for positive signs instead of just seeing negative things.  Of course the team has to defend better.   We were probably always going to lose against Liverpool and Chelsea and may do against Arsenal - but there is still time to turn it round.   There are two ways of being relegated.  One as a team down and out and another with a more positive team developing attitude - so you can hit the ground running. 

Its a work in progress - I''m not saying we are going down, I am saying we are trying to develop.   But one thing I do know is that we have to give Hughton the time to get things going his way.   And I don''t mean just this season. 

[/quote][Y]

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[quote user="lake district canary"]People have to ask themselves what they want.   Do they want to develop as a side in the premiership  or not?     If you just want to be cannon fodder then carrying on after last season playing in the same way - bags of enthusiasm and being thrashed by Man City and Liverpool (yes we were thrashed last season at Cara Rd by Liverpool, in case anyone had forgotten).   then that is fine.

Imo Hughton is trying to take us on from there and develop more composure and balanced style of football.   That doesn''t mean defensive - it simply means  raising the overall standard of the football throughout the team.     This has to happen - last season was the top of the tree for Lambert''s team. We had to develop from there.  

Now I know this hasn''t worked - yet - but why people are so impatient bothers me.   No one wants to lose matches like we have been doing, but you have to take in the bigger picture and the overall  strategy of the club, not just this season.    It may be that as Hughton''s approach and the new players gel with the old  will take longer  to work.    If that ultimately means we go down this season then that is something we will have to put up with.   Hopefully, if things improve we will stay up,  but the way some people are talking on here its like they are not supporting the club.    If you don''t buy in to what the club are trying to do - building a stronger more sustainable team - what are you supporting for??       Results don''t lie but sometimes - just sometimes - you have to look beyond them.     It is still early days.    We have the rest of the season to build.   We are not a super rich club and we have to accept that.  We have to build slowly.   Lambert was in a hurry.   His approach this season may not have worked.  We have what many people thought - and still think - is the best candidate at Norwich to take us on.  

Time to keep your nerve and see how things develop.    Look at some of the performances for positive signs instead of just seeing negative things.  Of course the team has to defend better.   We were probably always going to lose against Liverpool and Chelsea and may do against Arsenal - but there is still time to turn it round.   There are two ways of being relegated.  One as a team down and out and another with a more positive team developing attitude - so you can hit the ground running. 

Its a work in progress - I''m not saying we are going down, I am saying we are trying to develop.   But one thing I do know is that we have to give Hughton the time to get things going his way.   And I don''t mean just this season. 

[/quote]An absolutely superb, top notch post. 10 out of 10. Quality. Agreed with EVERYTHING you''ve said.

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"Its a work in progress - I''m not saying we are going down, I am saying we are trying to develop. But one thing I do know is that we have to give Hughton the time to get things going his way. And I don''t mean just this season."

 

I agree with this, totally.

 

The Hughton baiting, which seems to be amounting to a manhunt is unrealistc and surely detrimental to the fortunes of our Club.

 

Quite frankly, I am inclined to think that if this man, with the resources he has available, cannot keep us up then nobody can. Not even a re-incarnation of Lambert.

 

There are a few reasons to be disgruntled  since the Hoots came, but nothing drastic IMO.  

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[quote user="lake district canary"]People have to ask themselves what they want.   Do they want to develop as a side in the premiership  or not?     If you just want to be cannon fodder then carrying on after last season playing in the same way - bags of enthusiasm and being thrashed by Man City and Liverpool (yes we were thrashed last season at Cara Rd by Liverpool, in case anyone had forgotten).   then that is fine.

Imo Hughton is trying to take us on from there and develop more composure and balanced style of football.   That doesn''t mean defensive - it simply means  raising the overall standard of the football throughout the team.     This has to happen - last season was the top of the tree for Lambert''s team. We had to develop from there.  

Now I know this hasn''t worked - yet - but why people are so impatient bothers me.   No one wants to lose matches like we have been doing, but you have to take in the bigger picture and the overall  strategy of the club, not just this season.    It may be that as Hughton''s approach and the new players gel with the old  will take longer  to work.    If that ultimately means we go down this season then that is something we will have to put up with.   Hopefully, if things improve we will stay up,  but the way some people are talking on here its like they are not supporting the club.    If you don''t buy in to what the club are trying to do - building a stronger more sustainable team - what are you supporting for??       Results don''t lie but sometimes - just sometimes - you have to look beyond them.     It is still early days.    We have the rest of the season to build.   We are not a super rich club and we have to accept that.  We have to build slowly.   Lambert was in a hurry.   His approach this season may not have worked.  We have what many people thought - and still think - is the best candidate at Norwich to take us on.  

Time to keep your nerve and see how things develop.    Look at some of the performances for positive signs instead of just seeing negative things.  Of course the team has to defend better.   We were probably always going to lose against Liverpool and Chelsea and may do against Arsenal - but there is still time to turn it round.   There are two ways of being relegated.  One as a team down and out and another with a more positive team developing attitude - so you can hit the ground running. 

Its a work in progress - I''m not saying we are going down, I am saying we are trying to develop.   But one thing I do know is that we have to give Hughton the time to get things going his way.   And I don''t mean just this season. 

[/quote]
Brilliant post as always, LDC! Can''t help but agree. I think, eventually a working Norwich side under Hughton could be quite exciting. At the moment though, I can''t help but feel dejected about it all.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]People have to ask themselves what they want.   Do they want to develop as a side in the premiership  or not?     If you just want to be cannon fodder then carrying on after last season playing in the same way - bags of enthusiasm and being thrashed by Man City and Liverpool (yes we were thrashed last season at Cara Rd by Liverpool, in case anyone had forgotten).   then that is fine. [/quote]

We''ve been battered three times in seven games this season and we''re yet to play Man City. Our goal difference is rubbish at least when we played with bags of enthusiasm we were scoring goals up the other end.

The defeat at home to Liverpool was a bad result, I know they have world class players and blah blah but they were out of form when they came down to our place and couldn''t buy a goal, I think a few other smaller teams in this league would have made them sweat at lot more than we did.

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

"Its a work in progress - I''m not saying we are going down, I am saying we are trying to develop. But one thing I do know is that we have to give Hughton the time to get things going his way. And I don''t mean just this season."

 

I agree with this, totally.

 

The Hughton baiting, which seems to be amounting to a manhunt is unrealistc and surely detrimental to the fortunes of our Club.

 

Quite frankly, I am inclined to think that if this man, with the resources he has available, cannot keep us up then nobody can. Not even a re-incarnation of Lambert.

 

There are a few reasons to be disgruntled  since the Hoots came, but nothing drastic IMO.  

[/quote]The thing is whether you or me or whoever agrees with that or not, the options are limited and just as uncertain. Replacing Hughton now might be an answer but it might not. You''re gambling on getting in somebody else who is going to immediately change tactics, selection and formation for the better. Thing is every club that sacks it''s manger is looking for that. To us Lambert is a tactical genius to Villa fans he could turn out to be the guy that nearly got them relegated before they sacked him. That could be Houghton some will cry. Yes it could. However he is our chosen manager, he is less than a quarter of the way through his first ever season with us and he is not going to be sacked whist we sit in early October. And even if he was who is going to replace him.  Owen Coyle? AGH, Harry, unlikely, the chosen one.Luck goes hand in hand with success for clubs like ours and when you not getting it, sometimes you need to dig deep and just tweak thing. Not radically revamps, but tweaks. A lucky strike against West ham, a Brad Freidal mistake and things might look so different.Anybody who thinks Mr Lambert didn''t have a heap of luck while he was here is kidding themselves. Yes you make your own luck but you also have times when you never get the breaks. Then you stay calm, analyze thing and make small adjustments. That what I''m hoping CH is going to do and I think if he does/can it will still be our best hope of survival.OTBC

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