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Howson

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This is the biggest indictment of Hughton so far for me. I noticed it first in the Monchengladbach game. I thought what the hell has happened to Howson?

He looks a shadow of the player we saw last season. Under Lambert he shone as he was playing his natural game.

Under Hughton he''s shackled and not the player he can be.

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I''m not sure if it is still operating, but from pre-season videos the team were clearly using Hodgson''s two lines of four in defence. This is intended to keep opposing strikers at a distance. I''m not sure it has worked, but that is another matter. I suspect that the recent move to play Holt plus Wes up front was a recognition that there was not enough creativity or linkage.

 

So all four midfielders have to get back on defensive duties, and into a shape. The problem, of course, with wingers of relatively little pace - Surman, Snodgrass, etc, they may be be "stranded" upfield when a quick-breaking team flows forward, and thr system breaks down. I suspect that Howson has either been told, or thinks, that he must not get too far forward. Johnson is less constrained and regularly gets forward, and this may also cause Howson to hang back a little.

 

It''s a pity, because Howson is one of our better passers of the ball in tight situations, and Johnson is the one who opught ot be hanging back

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Good post Sal. It seems to me we do try to keep our shape with those rigid two lines of four. Often this results in nobody really pressing the ball. Players like Chelsea posess will find a way through eventually. There have been many comments on here about Saturday''s game but thew most telling for me was Di Matteo saying we were difficult to break down. We certainly didn''t play an open game as some seem to be suggesting.

 

If people are suggesting we play Howson as an attacking mid then that''s fair enough. But surely the same people would not suggest we play him in that role in the same side as Wes?

 

I don''t think we''ve seen the best of Howson yet. I think he was built up over the summer to be something his past performances didn''t merit. It will be a while before the best midfield options are obvious and it will be interesting to look back at this in May to see how the midfield progressed.

 

 

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Howson only played in an attacking role for 45 mins last season. Unless I am forgetting any other times when he did it. Everton at home. All he did in the first 35 mins was nothing until he scored. Then he started to play well.

But then he got moved back to CM, the same position he played in every other game for us to my knowledge. And he was much better for the whole second half.

He''s probably not getting forward quite as much as last season. But to be honest, when he played as an AM or ''off the striker'', he did very little.

Last season he was good at winning the ball. This season he seems to always be half a yard away from the ball when he tries to win it. When he won the ball he had great distribution. Can play the short pass, long pass, through ball. His passing range is pretty similar to Foxs. Howson is better at getting forward, he can shoot, he can burst forward with the ball. But I can''t see why anyone would want to waste two of his better talents last season of winning the ball and distributing it. The more Howson played, the less Fox played. Surely that tells you something?

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I agree the central midfield role doesn''t quite suit his game. He is better in attack and he proved that at times against Chelsea, which was no easy thing.

I ask you this: if we know that and Howson knows that, don''t you think Hughton knows that? Are we so arrogant to believe that a man of Hughton''s intelligence and footballing experience doesn''t see it? I believe Howson has been required to fill that role out of necessity.

Hughton''s number one priority during pre-season and the early part of this season was to make the team more defensively sound (everybody on this board was calling for it). This he did, especially after the first game by making drastic and near wholesale changes to the backline- to the approval of all- and maintaining Howson and Johnson in the Central Midfield role. (Yes, I''m aware that we have shifted 9 goals in two games, but if you take the Fulham result as a one off or wake-up call, then the defense has looked pretty solid- it took two great individual strikes to beat it against Tottenham and Newcastle, which you can do nothing about, and QPR cheated).

In addition, with Fox and Tettey injured or struggling for fitness before the season even started, the only dedicated central midfielder besides Howson was Bradley Johnson, who I wouldn''t trust on his own- I''m not saying I don''t like him or I think he''s poor, just that he needs someone next to him with creativity and a decent pass.

So,as I say, Howson is playing there out of necessity rather than preferred choice. I expect to see changes as players (esp. Fox) return.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]It will be a while before the best midfield options are obvious and it will be interesting to look back at this in May to see how the midfield progressed. [/quote]

This much is true.   If we were to see a central midfield pairing of Tetty and Butterfield later in the season it would not be a surprise, with the two wide men a choice between  Pilks, Benno, Snodgrass and Surman.      That would leave Howson, Johnson and Wes out in the cold.   These three have still to prove to me they are up to the job.   Wes looks good but doesn''t deliver the telling ball enough for me, Johnson doesn''t look quick enough to cover the pace of premiership forwards and Howson hasn''t shone enough.   

If Johnson is getting forward more than Howson - then that seems wrong to me.  Maybe he should be told to let Howson do the more forward play as he is more skilful, passes better and can shoot.    Maybe Howson himself has to be more pro-active in getting forward, but if Johnson is stealing his thunder so he can''t get forward then that is not right, because imo Howson is the better player to do that.   You ended up at Chelsea with Johnson getting forward - with his sometimes wayward passing (I know he put in a good cross, but did he do much else?) - and Wes who seemed to be doing his running around in circles trick but without getting the ball anywhere decisive - and as for the third goal.................

So for me its a question of getting the quality where it needs to be.   And that could mean Tetty as a fast energetic defensive midfielder with Butterfield (or perhaps Howson) having the licence to go forward.     Then you have quality in the middle with perhaps the two wide players and Holt and a.n.other up front.      Some of our players are going to be disappointed later in the season because they are not getting games, but I am sure the quality will come through - after all Hughton is known for getting the best out of his players - he just needs the time to get it to gel - but preferably by the next game!!

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He needs to be able to attack. But box to box is definitely better in my opinion. Its quite simple, tell Johnson to stay back more, and Howson to attack more. But obviously Hughton doesn''t think thats the right thing to do. But as it is, the whole team lacking bite/aggression none of the midfield are as effective as they could be. They just stand off players. If Howson was getting stuck in like last season, we wouldn''t be having this discussion. But Hughton appears to not like that approach.

Seriously, did he play as an AM/behind the striker in any other game other than Everton for 45 mins? Because I can''t remember him doing so...

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The biggest change under Hughton is the emphasis on shape rather than the high pressing game favoured by Lambert.

I think for must-win games at home I''d like to see a midfield three of:

            Fox

Howson      Hoolahan

Probably a bit too attack-minded but at least we''d be able to keep possession!!

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[quote user="Salopian"]

I''m not sure if it is still operating, but from pre-season videos the team were clearly using Hodgson''s two lines of four in defence. This is intended to keep opposing strikers at a distance. I''m not sure it has worked, but that is another matter. I suspect that the recent move to play Holt plus Wes up front was a recognition that there was not enough creativity or linkage.

 

So all four midfielders have to get back on defensive duties, and into a shape. The problem, of course, with wingers of relatively little pace - Surman, Snodgrass, etc, they may be be "stranded" upfield when a quick-breaking team flows forward, and thr system breaks down. I suspect that Howson has either been told, or thinks, that he must not get too far forward. Johnson is less constrained and regularly gets forward, and this may also cause Howson to hang back a little.

 

It''s a pity, because Howson is one of our better passers of the ball in tight situations, and Johnson is the one who opught ot be hanging back

[/quote]

 

 

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]He isn''t playing as a Defensive midfielder, he''s playing as a central midfielder.[/quote]

GP - should your full quote be "He isn''t playing as a Defensive midfielder, he''s playing as a central midfielder who does not get forward enough"? [;-)]

As sal/NN have mentioned we are going for 2 rows of 4, but that is detrimental to us both offensively and defensively. People mention the BMG game but the equaliser against Ajax was a horrendous example of not closing down from central midfield that has since been repeated far too often - and is down to an attack minded player being asked to defend.

The midfield pair of BJ & Howson has done neither attack nor defend well enough, neither player closing down, breaking up play or making tackles enough to offer enough protection (not enough fouls committed or yellow cards conceded) or getting ahead of the strikers or passing well enough to offer an attacking threat (lack of assists and chances created). As such they and the team are missing out.

Tettey looks like he may give us that power that is missing and fox can do the passing bit. More pace there would be a huge boost, but that should be where pilkington and bennett come in.

I do think its a choice between howson and wes in the attacking central midfield bit; right now I prefer wes in that role but would be happy if howson was pushed forward to do it too

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Zipper you say they don''t close down or break up play enough. But I don''t think that is their own fault. Because both have shown at one stage or another they are perfectly capable of doing so. I think Hughton doesn''t want the team to close down. Not quite sure why, as it doesn''t work. But why else would two players who are perfectly capable of closing down and tackling players just not do so for most of the game?

Quite simply in my view, there is no risk taking. No one is moving away from the exact position they think they need to be in, wether that means they don''t close down quick enough, don''t get their foot into the tackle, don''t move into space to receive a pass, or only make the simple pass rather than take a risk with a through ball, shot, cross, long ball etc.

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Need some presence in midfield will not survive with our midget midfield trust Butterfield to be more physical than Fox, Howson, Hoolahan, Snodgrass and maybe even Johnson. 

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Just think against Arsenal we need to keep the ball a lot better.

Not sure Johnson and Tettey are good enough with the ball for games against the big four.

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GP - I dont know whether it is the players or CH choice, either way not closing down players bearing in on goal is an error; as I cant know what CHs instructions are I can only judge the play in the moment; so for the ajax goal and the build up to the spurs goal I struggle to think that type of defending is acceptable from any midfielder.

I do agree with GPs view that we are too rigid - if CH is ruling by fear then that is something that does have to change, as does playing to a shape that prevents an attacking threat.

However within that approach players are not fulfilling their roles, and it is the players willingness to take responsibility for their choices in the moment that I am struggling with, not closing down or tackling for fear of being out of shape and conceding is an error as much on the players part as the managers instructions.

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Interesting someone mentioned Hodgson''s defensive strategy in regards to the two banks of four. In a Hodgson system (essentially a very developed zonal system) the midfield sits deep and the individual player is required to press the man with the ball when he enters his zone, the other players maintain a defensive line as straight as possible. Rather like this:
            Opponent with ball
                       CM
LM                                 CM      RM 
Hughton''s system seems to contain the defensive shape of a Hodgson team (with the two straight banks of four) but none of the zonal pressure I expect from a Hodgson system. Whether this is an intentional thing or a planned thing I don''t know.
The one thing that does look like a proper Hodgson system is the application of the offside trap which has been very good for the most part this season.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]Howson only played in an attacking role for 45 mins last season. Unless I am forgetting any other times when he did it. Everton at home. All he did in the first 35 mins was nothing until he scored. Then he started to play well.

But then he got moved back to CM, the same position he played in every other game for us to my knowledge. And he was much better for the whole second half.

He''s probably not getting forward quite as much as last season. But to be honest, when he played as an AM or ''off the striker'', he did very little.

Last season he was good at winning the ball. This season he seems to always be half a yard away from the ball when he tries to win it. When he won the ball he had great distribution. Can play the short pass, long pass, through ball. His passing range is pretty similar to Foxs. Howson is better at getting forward, he can shoot, he can burst forward with the ball. But I can''t see why anyone would want to waste two of his better talents last season of winning the ball and distributing it. The more Howson played, the less Fox played. Surely that tells you something?[/quote]

Glad someone has the same opinions on Howson as I do. I felt in the game against Everton he was barely involved until the goal. It is possible for players to have disappointing games even when they score. How I thought he looked excellent as a deep lying playmaker. His passing ability and the way he plays on the half turn meaning he can carry the ball made him an ideal candidate for that role.

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just another bizarre decision from Hughton just like playing Johnson as a left midfielder at chelsea, soon we will have Barnett as a striker no doubt!!

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Johnson can and has played out on the left in the past and he''s done it well. I even think Lambert stuck him out there for part of a game at one stage- can''t really remember.

He has also played at left-back, but that might be a step too far.

He has a good and powerful left foot, but his right foot is terrible, and he delivered some decent crosses when he got forward.

If there was any problem with having him on the left its that he''s probably too used to playing in the middle, so he had a slight tendency to drift into the central during the game, leaving Mata with more room than he should have had and Garrido (however briefly) outnumbered. The strategy was sound, nonetheless, as I believe Johnson was there to get close to Mata- kick him around a bit... and, in fact, bash his way around everyone and anything everywhere on the left. He just didn''t quite do it.

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Howson''s performances seem to have deteriorated since the arrival of Snodgrass. I expected the opposite.

 

Maybe it is since the departure of Lambert, but we won''t go into that.

 

I hope that there is better to come from the much-acclaimed Snoddy and that Jacob lives upto the hype. Happy with Tettey, he does what it says on the tin, would always settle with Fox but feel that Surman is becoming surplus to requirements. His good moments in a game are being out-weighed by his frequent anonimity, when his lack of pace shows.

 

I''m not sure whether I like the dreaded Bradley Johnson or not. At times he seems the life-blood of the team''s performance yet at others he seems to run around like a headless rhinoserous whilst mis-placing passes with apalling accuracy. His shooting ability, whilst adrenalil-inducing, is innacurate to the point where that poor old boy sipping his Bovril in the back row of the Barclay is all too frequently threatened.

 

The Hoots needs to organise the best combination from our constipated midfield options. He''s getting there. I''m not.

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Totally agree with you Broadstairs about Johnson.

He''s the most gloriously inconsistent of footballers, which is a source of real frustration. Now I''m not saying that he isn''t a good player or that I don''t like him. I''ve thought about this a bit and I realised that his biggest problem is that he isn''t actually as tough as he thinks/says he is.

Think about it. He has, on a number of occasions, told us in interview what his ''game'' is- getting into the faces of the opposition, breaking things up and doing an ''Incredible Hulk'' in general. There are games when he does just that and its impressive. And, because of his energy levels, he is able to quickly close down his opponents and you think that actually he''s more mobile and less slow than generally believed.

Then- just like that- he disappears. He suddenly seems physically incapable of getting anywhere near an opposing footballer and is generally a liability or, at best, anonymous.

Why? Because he''s too easily intimidated to be a tough guy. Something gets to him. It could be an occasion, an incident or perhaps a sense of false security (as in "Yes! I''m on form"), and he disappears. Last season the incident with Joey Barton (how is he getting on at Marseille? Not getting a game, I hear), egged on in the media by Warnock, essentially ruled him out months. He allowed a c**t and a t**t, who nobody really took seriously, to get to him. A tough guy doesn''t do that.

Just a thought.

As for the Hoots organising the best Midfield. Whilst I don''t agree with the concept of a best midfield or best XI, its easy to forget that Hughton''s options have been very limited by injuries, especially in midfield. Bennett, Pilkington, Tettey, Fox, Hoolahan, Butterfield and Lappin all missing for part or all of the season so far.

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[quote user="baldyboy"]just another bizarre decision from Hughton just like playing Johnson as a left midfielder at chelsea, soon we will have Barnett as a striker no doubt!![/quote]
Johnson playing left midfield against Chelsea made sense. Chelsea play a very narrow 4-2-3-1 with the ''3'' behind Torres all being playmakers offering no genuine width. This means that the Chelsea full-backs have to push forward to offer the attacking width necessary to stretch the defence. Chelsea''s right back (at the moment) is Ivanovic, who''s 6 foot 2 and weighs about 190 lbs, do you think Pilkington or Snodgrass could stop the guy when he rampages forward? I sure as hell don''t. Johnson may not be much of a wide player but he is a very physical player who won''t ignore his defensive responsibilities as much as the other two might. Johnson playing there was tactically sound.

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