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Baldyboy

oh dear!!!

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If that is the back up 11 for the first team tonite we are in the cack!!! Only ones who were any good tonite were Rudd francomb Fox and Hoolahan!!! We really need to wrap Holt and Jackson in cotton wool because if we have either of those two getting injured we are royally screwed if we have to put Martin or morison in to take their places on tonites non performance!!!

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Unlike you to be so pessimistic and dissing our players isn''t it?CH was obviously at a different match judging by his summary.These games are always tricky and have been a graveyard for us too many times to remember now; actually I choose to forget how many cup games like this we have not even turned up for.Not many minutes of actual game time this season between our players out there against Scunny but we still won the game.Chill out a bit mate and try see some good in our team, you may enjoy it.

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[quote user="baldyboy"]If that is the back up 11 for the first team tonite we are in the cack!!! Only ones who were any good tonite were Rudd francomb Fox and Hoolahan!!! We really need to wrap Holt and Jackson in cotton wool because if we have either of those two getting injured we are royally screwed if we have to put Martin or morison in to take their places on tonites non performance!!![/quote]
so now jackson is above Morison and martin?
I love the canadian as much as the next guy, but I don''t truly understand how he is where he is in fans pecking order. yes he has a good work rate, but as many have pointed out over the pre season when Martin said he wanted to fight for a first team spot, work rate can not make up for a lack of goals.
baring in mind, however, that Martin only played in 4 PL games last season, and Jackson played in many more and did not score a PL goal until april.
I''m really not having a go at Jackson, or you as an individual, honestly. I just do not know where the thought process comes from. it baffles me.
he scored a good goal against QPR, but, if an open, clear, wrapped in gift tape header like that was missed by anyone, it would be a shock.

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[quote user="Across The Pond Yellow"]...work rate can not make up for a lack of goals.[/quote]Well, I''d say if that "work rate" makes a significant contribution to our team winning games of football - regardless of who scores the goals - then I would say it does.  On several occasions last year Jackson and Holt played upfront together and we got some good results through it.  Jackson didn''t score many but his own running and movement helped create time and space for others and he did a lot of selfless work.  It''s a team game and if he makes a positive contribution to the team - not necessarily putting the ball in the net - then great.
[quote]baring in mind, however, that Martin only played in 4 PL games last season, and Jackson played in many more and did not score a PL goal until april.[/quote]
Er, December, actually, and he was hardly a regular in the side then.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"][quote user="Across The Pond Yellow"]...work rate can not make up for a lack of goals.[/quote]Well, I''d say if that "work rate" makes a significant contribution to our team winning games of football - regardless of who scores the goals - then I would say it does.  On several occasions last year Jackson and Holt played upfront together and we got some good results through it.  Jackson didn''t score many but his own running and movement helped create time and space for others and he did a lot of selfless work.  It''s a team game and if he makes a positive contribution to the team - not necessarily putting the ball in the net - then great.
[quote]baring in mind, however, that Martin only played in 4 PL games last season, and Jackson played in many more and did not score a PL goal until april.[/quote]
Er, December, actually, and he was hardly a regular in the side then.[/quote]
so then, in that case, what do people CURRENTLY  have against martin?
and my mistake, yes December, but he had still featured in 7 PL games prior to that, 8 including dons.
that would make it 8 pl games to score his first, yet martin is being judged on just 1/2 of that.

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[quote user="Gaz_in_Oz"]''''so then, in that case, what do people CURRENTLY  have against martin?''''Because it''s him.[/quote]
this. and it''s a shame, I''m sure people on here have done things they aren''t proud of, but if those things happened years ago, and people that in no way were affected by those actions, still held a strong grudge against them, I''m reasonably sure they would be very confused or upset.

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[quote user="Across The Pond Yellow"]
so now jackson is above Morison and martin?
I love the canadian as much as the next guy, but I don''t truly understand how he is where he is in fans pecking order. yes he has a good work rate, but as many have pointed out over the pre season when Martin said he wanted to fight for a first team spot, work rate can not make up for a lack of goals.
baring in mind, however, that Martin only played in 4 PL games last season, and Jackson played in many more and did not score a PL goal until april.
I''m really not having a go at Jackson, or you as an individual, honestly. I just do not know where the thought process comes from. it baffles me.
he scored a good goal against QPR, but, if an open, clear, wrapped in gift tape header like that was missed by anyone, it would be a shock.
[/quote]That has always been the case !If you had been at the game last night you would have seen how bad Morro and Martin both were. In some ways it was unfair playing them both as their styles do not complement each other but long story short, both were shit last night.Jackson is heads and tails above both of them.

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[quote user="Nexus_Canary"][quote user="Across The Pond Yellow"]
so now jackson is above Morison and martin?
I love the canadian as much as the next guy, but I don''t truly understand how he is where he is in fans pecking order. yes he has a good work rate, but as many have pointed out over the pre season when Martin said he wanted to fight for a first team spot, work rate can not make up for a lack of goals.
baring in mind, however, that Martin only played in 4 PL games last season, and Jackson played in many more and did not score a PL goal until april.
I''m really not having a go at Jackson, or you as an individual, honestly. I just do not know where the thought process comes from. it baffles me.
he scored a good goal against QPR, but, if an open, clear, wrapped in gift tape header like that was missed by anyone, it would be a shock.
[/quote]That has always been the case !If you had been at the game last night you would have seen how bad Morro and Martin both were. In some ways it was unfair playing them both as their styles do not complement each other but long story short, both were shit last night.Jackson is heads and tails above both of them.[/quote]
obviously I wasn''t at the game last night (not saying you were trying to suggest anything bad by it, I live 3500 miles away :p) but I have heard very different stories about the two last night. 
from my understanding, and this is the majority opinion that I have heard, including from a few family and friends who went, both had shaky starts. Martin eventually warmed up to the occasion and was playing very well, but wasn''t getting any deliveries. 
Morison is very mixed opinions, some say he was terrible all game,  and then wanted to give up, others say he did okay, picked up a bit of a bad knock, and needed a sub.

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The simple thing ATPY is that we ultimately judge strikers on their goalscoring track record.

Chris Martin has not scored a sufficient quantity of goals in any instance above League One level.

Jackson scored a flurry of goals in a short period at the end of the 11/12 season which undoubtedly aided our successful promotion push.

If a striker such as Martin, who is not a proven goalscorer at Championship level (even though he made 26 appearances in that season), does not possess any outstanding physical attributes (like someone like Wilbraham (aerial) or Jackson (raw acceleration)) then he does not deserve to feature.

Some morons on this board spouted comments like "if Chris Martin had been playing instead of Jackson at the end of our promotion season, then he would have probably scored just as many" or "Martin would have shown how good he was if he had played more than 4 games for us last season".

These arguments hold no water.

Ask yourselves this....Would we be interested if Chris Martin had never played for Norwich and was now available on a free transfer?

I thought not.

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''''If a striker such as Martin, who is not a proven goalscorer at

Championship level (even though he made 26 appearances in that season),

does not possess any outstanding physical attributes (like someone like

Wilbraham (aerial) or Jackson (raw acceleration)) then he does not

deserve to feature.''''Shame.

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[quote user="Gaz_in_Oz"]''''If a striker such as Martin, who is not a proven goalscorer at

Championship level (even though he made 26 appearances in that season),

does not possess any outstanding physical attributes (like someone like

Wilbraham (aerial) or Jackson (raw acceleration)) then he does not

deserve to feature.''''Shame.[/quote]

It is a shame. I more than most would love to see "one of our own" come through and establish themselves in the side. But sadly I don''t think it will be Martin.

As far as I''m concerned, Martin is just happy to be at a Premier League Club and Hughton has established that he is a willing backup.

Would you rather he stayed to warm the bench, be top scorer in the Ressies or we cashed in to the tune of £500k before he contract is wound down to an anticlimactic and obviously emotional departure?

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[quote user="Hoshke1"]The simple thing ATPY is that we ultimately judge strikers on their goalscoring track record.

Chris Martin has not scored a sufficient quantity of goals in any instance above League One level.

Jackson scored a flurry of goals in a short period at the end of the 11/12 season which undoubtedly aided our successful promotion push.

If a striker such as Martin, who is not a proven goalscorer at Championship level (even though he made 26 appearances in that season), does not possess any outstanding physical attributes (like someone like Wilbraham (aerial) or Jackson (raw acceleration)) then he does not deserve to feature.

Some morons on this board spouted comments like "if Chris Martin had been playing instead of Jackson at the end of our promotion season, then he would have probably scored just as many" or "Martin would have shown how good he was if he had played more than 4 games for us last season".

These arguments hold no water.

Ask yourselves this....Would we be interested if Chris Martin had never played for Norwich and was now available on a free transfer?

I thought not.[/quote]
fair point about not wanting him if he wasn''t already here, but odds are the same would go for jackson. 3 PL goals in 22 appearances last season, sorry if my numbers wrong, trying to go by memory from earlier, but I think it''s correct.
would anyone truly be happy to give him wages over a number of other strikers on a free transfer? probably not. 
ultimately, his late season championship goals gained us 7 points, which were indeed crucial in getting us into the automatic promotion slot, but who is to say that martin couldn''t of scored, or assisted, into getting those points if he were to be playing instead? it''s all down to chance. you can not say Martin wouldn''t help, but you can''t say he would. it''s all subjective and hindsight is always key. the fact you call these people moronic is slightly hypercritical as you just make the opposite assumption in the same situation. And basing Martin on his goalscoring track last season to decide if he''s worthy of us isn''t exactly fair, considering the difference in caliber between the support he got a palace and what he would here at this time, right now. 
one last thing - Martin gained us 6 points via goals our promotion season (10-11). just 4 points short of Jackson in 8 less appearances. 

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[quote user="Hoshke1"][quote user="Gaz_in_Oz"]''''If a striker such as Martin, who is not a proven goalscorer at

Championship level (even though he made 26 appearances in that season),

does not possess any outstanding physical attributes (like someone like

Wilbraham (aerial) or Jackson (raw acceleration)) then he does not

deserve to feature.''''Shame.[/quote]

It is a shame. I more than most would love to see "one of our own" come through and establish themselves in the side. But sadly I don''t think it will be Martin.

As far as I''m concerned, Martin is just happy to be at a Premier League Club and Hughton has established that he is a willing backup.

Would you rather he stayed to warm the bench, be top scorer in the Ressies or we cashed in to the tune of £500k before he contract is wound down to an anticlimactic and obviously emotional departure?[/quote]
In what way has hughton established that Martin is a willing back up? before the season he said he wants to fight for his place, right at this moment he has fought to stay at the club, unless of course he goes out on loan by friday.
he has ''fought'' his way back to being a substitute, and whos to say that he''s happy at that? perhaps he wants to keep going until he gets a starting role. 

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I really want an answer to this, i''ve asked it multiple times. How on earth can you enjoy being a Norwich/Football fan with an attitude like that?

Seriously, the only way you can bear it, is the fact you can''t expect the team to win, so when we don''t your not going to be disappointed. Seriously, i''m not saying you have to love everything about the club, there are, have been and always will be issues, with every club. But some fans just find something to moan about all the bloody time.

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While anyone is busting a gut to stay at the club, wants to play for the club and is wearing the canary badge they will have my support.

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Ultimately thats how it is for me, Gaz.
I make no effort to hide that I like Martin, I knew his brother a little bit, and both our fathers often talk on our visits back to England.
However, if Martin only wanted to stay for the name of the premier league, while putting in 0 effort, I would not want him here. He is desperate to repay the club that built him up, and I believe he will not willingly go until he has done so. a lad with great potential while his head is in the game, and if he can spend the season free and clear of trouble, I''m all for him staying. if he starts causing trouble again, he will probably need to go.

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On paper are squad is looking strong, a striker to come in and most of us would be happy

GK- Ruddy, Rudd, Steer

RB- Martin, Whittaker, Francomb

LB- Garrido, Tierney, Lappin

CB- Bassong, Turner, Bennett, Barnett, Ward

CM- Fox, Surman, Johnson, Howson, Tettey

AM- Hoolahan, Butterfield, Snodgrass, Pilkington, Bennett

ST- Holt, Jackson, Morison, Martin, (New Striker)

And thats not counting Smith or Adeyemi

Thats easily the strongest squad we''ve had in at least 20 years. Long gone are the days of Brellier, Strihavka etc.

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Unfortunately ATPY there''s always been a lot of xenophobia in Norfolk and Martin coming from Suffolk just cops it in the shorts all the time.

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ATPY....

I commented they were moronic for constructing arguments which were based upon hypothetical situations...i.e. Martin would have scored as many goals as Jackson did if he had been playing.

I did no such thing. I did not make the opposite assumption. I simply stated that these arguments held no water.

Jackson did make 22 appearances, scoring three goals, but only 10 of these apps were starts.

Again ATPY, I did not comment on Chris Martin''s goalscoring record last season. My comments referred to the 4 goals he scored in 30 appearances for us in season 2010/11.

And for the last thing, I don''t think the ratio of points earned doesn''t reflect favourably on Martin. Don''t know why you put that in there.

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[quote user="Gaz_in_Oz"]Unfortunately ATPY there''s always been a lot of xenophobia in Norfolk and Martin coming from Suffolk just cops it in the shorts all the time.
[/quote]

 

 

I''m sorry, I just don''t buy this.   Martin is a footballer and he will be judged as a footballer.   However, as others have pointed out, he doesn''t have any stand out attributes such as speed or aerial power.      He can score a goal but not prolifically at this level.     Therfore he is not likely to make a breakthrough at the top level.      His touch is quite good - and can pass ok, but unfortunately the overall package doesn''t amount to someone who will do very well at premiership level (imo).   He is great at league 1 and ok at Championship level, but I will be very surprised if he feature smuch in the premiership.   I hope I am wrong - he is a Norwich player and I would like him to do well - but on footballing terms I don''t think he will. 

 

 

 

As for all the outside issues that people bring up - they are now irrelevant.  He is not a kid any more and is trying to be a professional footballer and wants to suceed at our club.   That is fine and is all that matters.   Judge him on his football and leave the petty parochial issues out of it.

 

 

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[quote user="Across The Pond Yellow"][quote user="Graham Humphrey"][quote user="Across The Pond Yellow"]...work rate can not make up for a lack of goals.[/quote]Well, I''d say if that "work rate" makes a significant contribution to our team winning games of football - regardless of who scores the goals - then I would say it does.  On several occasions last year Jackson and Holt played upfront together and we got some good results through it.  Jackson didn''t score many but his own running and movement helped create time and space for others and he did a lot of selfless work.  It''s a team game and if he makes a positive contribution to the team - not necessarily putting the ball in the net - then great.
[quote]baring in mind, however, that Martin only played in 4 PL games last season, and Jackson played in many more and did not score a PL goal until april.[/quote]
Er, December, actually, and he was hardly a regular in the side then.[/quote]
so then, in that case, what do people CURRENTLY  have against martin?
and my mistake, yes December, but he had still featured in 7 PL games prior to that, 8 including dons.
that would make it 8 pl games to score his first, yet martin is being judged on just 1/2 of that.

Martin is a lazy shit[/quote]

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''''I''m sorry, I just don''t buy this.   Martin is a footballer and he will be judged as a footballer. ''''And I just don''t buy this LDC, there has been a plethora of posts attacking Martin on anything but his footballing ability, which you also back up in your last paragraph ,it''s not been restricted to Martin but he is obviously the whipping boy for some.CH will decide who plays (thank goodness)  and he will judge on footballing prowess. I was joking about the xenophobia.

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[quote user="Gaz_in_Oz"]Unfortunately ATPY there''s always been a lot of xenophobia in Norfolk and Martin coming from Suffolk just cops it in the shorts all the time.[/quote]

Like this comment.

I can appreciate that my comments were damning and negative, but this board is built upon our analysis of performances. God knows how much stick Morison has received of late.

I have been a committed Norwich fan for many years, sitting through many glorious moments and devastating disappointments.

At every match I always give the team my full support but feel justified in critical analysis of performances once the dust has settled.

Hughton has many tough challenges ahead with NCFC and it is still too early to gauge the calibre of the man in this role, but our support and experience of our players development predates his.

Martin has and always will treated by many as our favourite son. He has been a loyal if occassionally irresponsible servant of our club. I''m sure he is desperate to do us and himself proud here, but I have never seen anything from him to assure me he is worthy of featuring for us at this level.

We need to be realistic about the quality of our players in each department and we just haven''t moved on from last season in the striking department. Chris is no longer a youngster and "potential" does not deserve a precious space in the 25 man team. We need to strengthen and he would be my preferred candidate for the chop.

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@CRHM, obviously not, as he is in the middle of fighting his way back.
@Hosh, the reason I put that in there is not to make Martin look good, but for the reasoning that People have no real basis on rating Jackson ever so highly than Martin. if they don''t reflect favorably on Martin then surely they do not reflect favorably on Jackson. The only point I have been trying to make is, that if people are so fixated that he needs to go, then the same should apply for Jackson, However I think both have great potential, and forwards don''t necessarily have an expiration date for potential (site - point; Grant Holt, Ricky Lambert.)
I think in an interview earlier in the summer, don''t quote me on this, but he either said he had the option between leaving or fighting (not sure if it was on loan or perm.) 
if it was on loan, he would still be connected to a PL club on PL wages for another season, if it was just about that, he wouldn''t be here right now.

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Barnett had a not so great season, almost forgotten about by fans, and yet, he was given the chance to start against QPR, and suddenly he is back in the good books again with most fans. this is the last I have to say on the subject, because apparently numbers and statistics mean nothing overall, it comes down to likability factor, and Jackson is more likable than Martin.

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[quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"]I''ve occasionally thought that Martin could be converted to an attacking midfield role.    That''s just my humble opinion of course.[/quote]I''m still of the opinion that his best position is where Hoolahan normally plays, but then you''re trading off superior finishing for more potential flair and creativity.I''d still rather play Martin over Jackson regardless of this however.

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[quote user="Across The Pond Yellow"][quote user="baldyboy"]If that is the back up 11 for the first team tonite we are in the cack!!! Only ones who were any good tonite were Rudd francomb Fox and Hoolahan!!! We really need to wrap Holt and Jackson in cotton wool because if we have either of those two getting injured we are royally screwed if we have to put Martin or morison in to take their places on tonites non performance!!![/quote]
so now jackson is above Morison and martin?
I love the canadian as much as the next guy, but I don''t truly understand how he is where he is in fans pecking order. yes he has a good work rate, but as many have pointed out over the pre season when Martin said he wanted to fight for a first team spot, work rate can not make up for a lack of goals.
baring in mind, however, that Martin only played in 4 PL games last season, and Jackson played in many more and did not score a PL goal until april.
I''m really not having a go at Jackson, or you as an individual, honestly. I just do not know where the thought process comes from. it baffles me.
he scored a good goal against QPR, but, if an open, clear, wrapped in gift tape header like that was missed by anyone, it would be a shock.

[/quote]

 

Jackson is ahead of Morison and Martin in the pecking order currently because he came into the team on Saturday, played really, really well and I thought was one of the major reasons why we looked a far better team than at Fulham last week. if he continues to play like that every week he will remain ahead of Morison and Martin in the pecking order. If he doesn''t then he wont!

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