25 Man Squad

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Agreed GJL. But broady did say squad.

 

I think it''s unfair to compare eras anyway. Tommy Bryceland and Wes Hoolahan would be two of my favourite ever players. They both were worth the admission money alone on many occasions. But how do you compare them?

 

 

 

[Bill 1,788]

The game is played at a much more frenetic pace now and has been ''speeding up'' for decades. How many of the cup run team of ''59 would get into the team 30 years on.

 

How many of todays squad would cope with the heavy pitches and even heavier footballs of the fifties ?

 

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,748]

[quote user="City1st"]

The game is played at a much more frenetic pace now and has been ''speeding up'' for decades. How many of the cup run team of ''59 would get into the team 30 years on.

 

How many of todays squad would cope with the heavy pitches and even heavier footballs of the fifties ?

 

 

[/quote]

**tin hat on**   the ''59 cup team were just a League One team that went a lucky cup run to the semis.........repeated in recent years by the likes of Wycombe and Chesterfield.......can''t be mentioned in the same breath as teams that finished 3rd and 4th in the top league?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="City1st"]

The game is played at a much more frenetic pace now and has been ''speeding up'' for decades. How many of the cup run team of ''59 would get into the team 30 years on.

 

How many of todays squad would cope with the heavy pitches and even heavier footballs of the fifties ?

 

 

[/quote]

**tin hat on**   the ''59 cup team were just a League One team that went a lucky cup run to the semis.........repeated in recent years by the likes of Wycombe and Chesterfield.......can''t be mentioned in the same breath as teams that finished 3rd and 4th in the top league?

[/quote]

 

No, because times were different. Players remained at their clubs because they couldn''t get more money elsewhere. Players like Barry Butler and Jimmy Hill were probably among the best in the country.

 

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,748]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="City1st"]

The game is played at a much more frenetic pace now and has been ''speeding up'' for decades. How many of the cup run team of ''59 would get into the team 30 years on.

 

How many of todays squad would cope with the heavy pitches and even heavier footballs of the fifties ?

 

 

[/quote]

**tin hat on**   the ''59 cup team were just a League One team that went a lucky cup run to the semis.........repeated in recent years by the likes of Wycombe and Chesterfield.......can''t be mentioned in the same breath as teams that finished 3rd and 4th in the top league?

[/quote]

 

No, because times were different. Players remained at their clubs because they couldn''t get more money elsewhere. Players like Barry Butler and Jimmy Hill were probably among the best in the country.

 

 

[/quote]

maybe?....but only twice in the the last 53 years has NCFC been outside the top 2 divsions....that team was one of them??

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="City1st"]

The game is played at a much more frenetic pace now and has been ''speeding up'' for decades. How many of the cup run team of ''59 would get into the team 30 years on.

 

How many of todays squad would cope with the heavy pitches and even heavier footballs of the fifties ?

 

 

[/quote]

**tin hat on**   the ''59 cup team were just a League One team that went a lucky cup run to the semis.........repeated in recent years by the likes of Wycombe and Chesterfield.......can''t be mentioned in the same breath as teams that finished 3rd and 4th in the top league?

[/quote]

 

No, because times were different. Players remained at their clubs because they couldn''t get more money elsewhere. Players like Barry Butler and Jimmy Hill were probably among the best in the country.

 

 

[/quote]

maybe?....but only twice in the the last 53 years has NCFC been outside the top 2 divsions....that team was one of them??

[/quote]

I think we''d only spent about half a dozen season''s above that level in the previous 60 odd years. That was our level.

[BroadstairsR 2,159]

http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/213539

 

Vive la difference.

 

I was there. My first ever away game as an eleven years old.

 

I had my rosette on and when needing a piss towards the end of the game I was in a urinal next to an old Spurs fan. All he said was, "Best of luck in the next round son," in a most fatherly way. It was so friendly and genuine that it has remained in my memory ever since. 

 

Not only has the game changed, so have the supporters. I would have gotten my little balls kicked off today at that age and venturing that far alone with City colours on. 

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

**tin hat on**   the ''59 cup team were just a League One team that went a lucky cup run to the semis.........repeated in recent years by the likes of Wycombe and Chesterfield.

[/quote]

 

You have a strange idea of luck. In getting to the semi-final Norwich were drawn against one team from the second tier and three teams from the top tier. Two of those, Man Utd and Spurs, are two of the perennial giants of the English game. Indeed that Spurs team was the basis of the side that did the double (then a remarkable feat) in 1961. More than that we were drawn away against Spurs, and against Sheffield United (where our goalkeeper played the last 30 minutes with a dislocated shoulder). More than that in the semi-final reply (against another team from the top flight) we lost by one goal, meaning that we came (I am fairly sure) mathematically closer to an FA Cup fnal than any team from outside the top two divisions in the history of the competition.

[Victor Segura and the Yellow Cards 0]

By the same token, without ever wishing to take anything away from the 59ers, Man U had pretty much been wiped out in a plane crash in 58.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Victor Segura and the Yellow Cards"]By the same token, without ever wishing to take anything away from the 59ers, Man U had pretty much been wiped out in a plane crash in 58.[/quote]

 

But this was the following season. The Man Utd team had been rebuilt, and included Gregg, Foulkes, Bobby Charlton, Viollet and Quixall. And finished second in the league. And this was - unlike nowadays - a time when if you asked a player or a manager whether they would prefer to win Division One or the FA Cup they would to think about the answer. A far cry from the devalued competition nowadays, in which it is easier to put together a "giant"-killing run.

[TIL 1010 4,737]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

 

I had my rosette on and when needing a piss towards the end of the game I was in a urinal next to an old Spurs fan. All he said was, "Best of luck in the next round son," in a most fatherly way.  

[/quote]

And today that old Spurs fan posts on this messageboard as Bly.[:P]

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,748]

I wonder if Roy Essandoh and co will go down in FA Cup folklore in the same way in years to come ?!?!?!

[Bill 1,788]

But still good enough to finish 2nd in the table that season ''59, 5 points ahead of third (2 points fo a win)

 

so it is hardly a valid point

 

 

 

 

[chicken 0]

It''s crazy to compare modern football to footy 50+ years ago.

Completely different eras.

Even 20+ years ago.

The top four divisions are all now fully professional. Back then it may have been called professional because players were payed to play but it was far from meaning that it gave them an income to live off. The sponsership deals and endorsements weren''t there either.

Not to mention the science. I think that is what has changed since the premiership has come along - I think that can be clearly seen especially in the last 15 or so years.

Back in the ''90''s players could still get away with being alcoholic''s. But now it just can''t be done, a players health and fitness in relation to their performance is a fine ballancing game. Dieticians, psychologists and sports scientists are all involved in the goings on at top clubs now.

The resources available to players now is just so much more infinite than back then.

[ZLF 274]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]I wonder if Roy Essandoh and co will go down in FA Cup folklore in the same way in years to come ?!?!?![/quote]

 

For wycombe I have no doubt they already are - and rightly so.

[The Great Drinkell 50]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Agreed GJL. But broady did say squad.

 

I think it''s unfair to compare eras anyway. Tommy Bryceland and Wes Hoolahan would be two of my favourite ever players. They both were worth the admission money alone on many occasions. But how do you compare them?

 

 

 

[/quote]

Probably the fairest way would be to work out the number of points they would gain..... an a Scrabble board, to be fair though you must use Wesley[:)]

[star_manic 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

**tin hat on**   the ''59 cup team were just a League One team that went a lucky cup run to the semis.........repeated in recent years by the likes of Wycombe and Chesterfield.

[/quote]

 

You have a strange idea of luck. In getting to the semi-final Norwich were drawn against one team from the second tier and three teams from the top tier. Two of those, Man Utd and Spurs, are two of the perennial giants of the English game. Indeed that Spurs team was the basis of the side that did the double (then a remarkable feat) in 1961. More than that we were drawn away against Spurs, and against Sheffield United (where our goalkeeper played the last 30 minutes with a dislocated shoulder). More than that in the semi-final reply (against another team from the top flight) we lost by one goal, meaning that we came (I am fairly sure) mathematically closer to an FA Cup fnal than any team from outside the top two divisions in the history of the competition.

[/quote].........

also erroll crossan scored what seems a perfectly legal goal in the semi that was dis-allowed, so in a perfect world we would have been at wembley.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,748]

[quote user="star_manic"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

**tin hat on**   the ''59 cup team were just a League One team that went a lucky cup run to the semis.........repeated in recent years by the likes of Wycombe and Chesterfield.

[/quote]

 

You have a strange idea of luck. In getting to the semi-final Norwich were drawn against one team from the second tier and three teams from the top tier. Two of those, Man Utd and Spurs, are two of the perennial giants of the English game. Indeed that Spurs team was the basis of the side that did the double (then a remarkable feat) in 1961. More than that we were drawn away against Spurs, and against Sheffield United (where our goalkeeper played the last 30 minutes with a dislocated shoulder). More than that in the semi-final reply (against another team from the top flight) we lost by one goal, meaning that we came (I am fairly sure) mathematically closer to an FA Cup fnal than any team from outside the top two divisions in the history of the competition.

[/quote]......... also erroll crossan scored what seems a perfectly legal goal in the semi that was dis-allowed, so in a perfect world we would have been at wembley.[/quote]

 

I''m sure that 3rd tier Chesterfield could lay the same claim with their semi final vs Middlesbrough in ''97 when they had a clear ball over the line disallowed?

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

I know nothing about the ''59ers but I would say that if the 92/93/94 team were in this season''s Premier League - they would almost certainly be relegated.

 

The Premier League has moved on so far, so fast that the overall quality of players is much higher. It''s not just due to the influx of cash which has meant that all teams have international stars in their squads, but also advancements in training, sports science etc etc have meant players are stronger, quicker and have faster recovery times than before.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Three things : -

 

That 59 had a much more difficult draw than Chesterfield. They beat Spurs and Man Utd on merit. Two established top tier clubs. Unlucky to lose the semi against Luton who were also a top tier club. Chesterfield only played Forest and Middlesboro from the top tier and those two clubs were relegated that season.

 

To compare eras the players would have to be transported through time. The 92/93 team would have to have had the developement of the present day''s players and play on the same quality pitches etc. Or the present team would have to have the 92/93 teams developement and be judged on their conditions.

 

Wesley Hoolahan 26  Tommy Bryceland 29

 

 

[ZLF 274]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

I know nothing about the ''59ers but I would say that if the 92/93/94 team were in this season''s Premier League - they would almost certainly be relegated.

 

The Premier League has moved on so far, so fast that the overall quality of players is much higher. It''s not just due to the influx of cash which has meant that all teams have international stars in their squads, but also advancements in training, sports science etc etc have meant players are stronger, quicker and have faster recovery times than before.

[/quote]

Interesting view Bethnal.  Had the early 90s team had the benefit of the training, science would they too have been stronger, faster, recovery times etc?  They are simply effects on the human bodies through conditioning.  

 

As far as overseas players are concerned our squad last season was hardly overflowing with them and we finished mid table,  and given we have just 2 this season are we also doomed this season?   And I remember facing players such as kanchelskis and cantona in those seasons and us being able to cope in both the prem and europe. 

 

Undoubtedly the current squad has far better strength in depth though.

 

It all theorhetical of course but my team from the two would read

 

                              Ruddy

Culverhouse    Butterworth   Polston   Bowen (Garrido is the one current player getting close at the back)

Pilkington    Crook        ?Close here, weakest position? D Fox         R Fox

                Sutton         Holt     

Subs

Gunn,  R Martin, Bassong, Garrido, Snodgrass, E Bennett,   Robins

 

 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Can''t have Polston in there Zip. Now if it was still Linighan he''d be a cert.

 

I know...

 

Opinions opinions...

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Oh and (a bit off topic I know) I''ve always believed that if we could have added Townsend and Linigham back to the 92/93 team we''d have won the Premier League.

 

 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"][quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

I know nothing about the ''59ers but I would say that if the 92/93/94 team were in this season''s Premier League - they would almost certainly be relegated.

 

The Premier League has moved on so far, so fast that the overall quality of players is much higher. It''s not just due to the influx of cash which has meant that all teams have international stars in their squads, but also advancements in training, sports science etc etc have meant players are stronger, quicker and have faster recovery times than before.

[/quote]

Interesting view Bethnal.  Had the early 90s team had the benefit of the training, science would they too have been stronger, faster, recovery times etc?  They are simply effects on the human bodies through conditioning.  

 

As far as overseas players are concerned our squad last season was hardly overflowing with them and we finished mid table,  and given we have just 2 this season are we also doomed this season?   And I remember facing players such as kanchelskis and cantona in those seasons and us being able to cope in both the prem and europe. 

 

Undoubtedly the current squad has far better strength in depth though.

 

It all theorhetical of course but my team from the two would read

 

                              Ruddy

Culverhouse    Butterworth   Polston   Bowen (Garrido is the one current player getting close at the back)

Pilkington    Crook        ?Close here, weakest position? D Fox         R Fox

                Sutton         Holt     

Subs

Gunn,  R Martin, Bassong, Garrido, Snodgrass, E Bennett,   Robins

[/quote]

 

That is the million dollar question really. Many of the people who work in fitness coaching would argue that even players such as Pele wouldn''t be able to cope now as the force in tackles is so much harder (hence the need to tighten up rules on two footed challenges etc.)

 

Imagine the force at which someone like Antonio Valencia can hit you with, Christiano Ronaldo has the physic of a light weight boxer. Players are bigger and stronger than they use to be, teams like Chelsea started almost an ''arms war'' by brining in bigger and bigger players in the Jose days.

 

When I talk about overseas players the fact Norwich doesn''t have them still doesn''t mean we haven''t felt the affects - for example because Man United have Valencia they don''t need a top English player like Lennon from Spurs, and because Spurs can keep hold of Lennon they don''t need a player from lower down like Snodgrass. The fact that around 50% of players in the Premier League are from outside the GB and Ireland means that the overal quality of the Leagues are higher due a greater avaliability of resources - for example when Newcastle wanted a right winger back in the 90s they took Ruel Fox off Norwich, whereas now they go to France and buy Ben Arfa.

[BroadstairsR 2,159]

Very true that. Before the influx of foreigners players like Snodgrass would have been established top league players long before (we signed him.)

[ZLF 274]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Oh and (a bit off topic I know) I''ve always believed that if we could have added Townsend and Linigham back to the 92/93 team we''d have won the Premier League.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Cant argue with that Nutty, replace D Fox with Townsend and Linighan for Polly and you have an inspiring team - but I was playing the comparing teh two squads game.

As for Polly - was simply one of my personal favourites and am very happy for alternative views,  but you dont say who you would replace him with?  Feel free to disagree but share a view from the players listed 

[ZLF 274]

Exactly Bethnal - so tough to compare across periods (as I am being forced todo in horse racing this season with the exceptional Frankel).

 

Or maybe Sunderland/Liverpool would have bought fox and for an outlandishly exhorbitant price because he was english and knocking on the england squad as Shaun WP would?

 

Worthy certainly went down the height route too - but football is also an art,  which is why we are seeing the likes of iniesta messi and in our own squad wessi continue to thrill crowds.

 

A pointless but fascinating and engaging debate with no agreeable conclusion :-)  

[nutty nigel 7,528]

The problem with Frankel is the standard of opposition. On the strength of the way Frankel has anhialated all opponents he''s a good shout to be the best ever. But some eras will have stronger competition than others. How highly would you rate Rock of Gibralter for instance?

 

Thinking about it I guess Polly does have a shout. I think Bassong is, and Ryan Bennett probably will be, better players but we can''t make that judgement yet. So on the strength that we don''t know your call of Polly is probably the right one. But then I''d question Bassong being sub. Sooooo.. if he can be on the bench he can play!

 

 

Ruddy

Culverhouse Butterworth Bassong Bowen (Any other left back ever and I''d pick Garrido)

Pilkington Crook Howson R Fox

Sutton Holt

 

But on another day I''d have Hoolahan in there.

 

Not as easy as it first appears though Zip.

 

 

[ZLF 274]

It is a tough one I agree Nutty.   Wessi did come close for me too,  but felt a little lightweight in there alongside the sublime chippy.

 

As for Frankel,  I think the standard of opposition at least the equal of what rock of gibralter faced - that was always my downside with RoG.  Frankel could just be my huckerby - the one that mixes quality with that take your breath away quality of the manner of his victories.

 

I do recall the brigadier too and thats the real comparator for me and just cant decide.  Thats before the likes of Nijinsky etc.   

 

I guess my point is comparing anything across the ages is an enhoyable but pointless use of time :-)