Larger capacity

[BroadstairsR 2,272]

[quote user="Steady On..."]"Realism" = negativity[/quote]

 

Get your dictionary out. (Again!)

[Steady On... 0]

How many times have you heard someone say "I''m not negative I''m just a realist"

"nope, your just negative and ashamed of it"

[BroadstairsR 2,272]

[quote user="Steady On..."]How many times have you heard someone say "I''m not negative I''m just a realist" "nope, your just negative and ashamed of it"[/quote]

 

It was all meant a, little ''tongue in cheek,'' you know, not quite serious. [:O][:O]

 

(Most others reading the thread will likely glean that.)

 

However, if you need to discuss semantics then "realistically" nearly half the teams in the League this season are wary of the drop at this stage of the season, and we are surely amongst them.

 

Three sides will be relegated from the Premiership this season and I do not think that we will be amongst them

 

That does not mean you refute the ''realistic'' dangers of this happening.

[Steady On... 0]

Thats it, remain negative and "realistic" and then celebrate with the rest of us. That''s fair.

[BroadstairsR 2,272]

[quote user="Steady On..."]Thats it, remain negative and "realistic" and then celebrate with the rest of us. That''s fair.[/quote]  

 

Ugh? Perhaps there was some hidden logic in that nonsense, but I failed to discern it.

 

Clearly, you failed to find your dictionary. I''ll help you out then:

 

Realism:- 

1. Interest in or concern for the actual or real, as distinguished from the abstract, speculative, etc.

2. The tendency to view or represent things as they really are.

[Steady On... 0]

Nah like I''ve said before, if your negative/realistic you can have it both ways. Win and just join in with everyone else or lose and shout "I told you so" from the tallest tower you can find. It''s the cowards way out.

[ricardo 7,846]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

[quote user="Steady On..."]Thats it, remain negative and "realistic" and then celebrate with the rest of us. That''s fair.[/quote]  

 

Ugh? Perhaps there was some hidden logic in that nonsense, but I failed to discern it.

 

Clearly, you failed to find your dictionary. I''ll help you out then:

 

Realism:- 

1. Interest in or concern for the actual or real, as distinguished from the abstract, speculative, etc.

2. The tendency to view or represent things as they really are.

[/quote]

"Reality is a crutch for people who can''t cope with drugs"

Lily Tomlin (1939-

[;)]

[PurpleCanary 6,217]

[quote user="ricardo"]

"Reality is a crutch for people who can''t cope with drugs"

Lily Tomlin (1939-

[;)]

[/quote]

 

That is a great quote, from the one genuinely funny person on Rowan and Martin''s supposed "Laugh-in"...

[way out west 0]

Let''s stand...

[Lets be aving you! 0]

I haven''t waded through every post on this large thread, but I would highlight the following (from a mildly pro-expansionist viewpoint):

1. The argument that City1st advances about ticket income representing a small and dwindling proportion of total revenue can equally well be taken to support the pro-expansion argument. After all, the 20 million (or whatever) figure required for expansion will, with increasing Sky money next year, become that much smaller, relatively speaking, and less of a millstone around our neck in the event of relegation (given the presumably much higher parachute payments). As a proportion, it would take a smaller slice of our overall budget than, say, it would if the stadium were to be financed right now.

2. While the waiting list would be a useful gauge of potential ticket buyers, this list does not by any means paint the whole picture. Large numbers of existing supporters have probably long since abandoned trying to get casual tickets given that only about 2000 causal tickets are often ever made available. A proportion of these supporters would likely be interested in purchasing season tickets, where their circumstances have changed since they used to watch games. On a related issue, I am also often struck by how frequently an individual seat near me in the ground is actually shared by members of the same family, with different members of the family alternating usage of the "family seat" in some agreed way. It would seem plausible to me that some of these families might well purchase an additional seat in the event of capacity being enlarged.

3. More broadly, there are a large number of people in the region with no particular current club affiliation who are are or who could become interested in watching higher-level football, but currently do not do so. From my own personal experience, a neighbour of mine has asked me about how to go about taking his young son to Norwich games, and I had to explain that the chances of watching regular games are pretty slim. They now go to watch Peterborough regularly. Similarly, I also know of a West Brom supporter who has recently started taking a friend with no particular club affiliation along to the Hawthorns after she had expressed an interest in going to "watch football". Had the same situation arisen with me, I would have struggled to suggest the same approach for Norwich games. Many of this "next generation" are being lost.

4. Matchday ticket prices can be properly banded to suit demand. The current banding system is a bit of a joke in that, with virtually sell-out crowds every game (at least for last season), nearly every game is/was classed as category A. The banding system could actually be properly used if the capacity were to be increased, thereby encouraging greater take-up for the less "attractive" fixtures (Wigan, Reading, etc.). This would be more likely to promote fuller utilisation of any expanded capacity.

[dpit 1]

Get. A grip the lot of you. Watch the Paralimpic Closing Ceremony and realise your bleating one upmanship is petty and woefully insignificant in the face of the human spirit and endeavour displayed over the last 2 weeks. Just have a good hard look at yourselves.

[nutty nigel 7,846]

Right on dpit...

 

Sort yourselves out together! Don''t debate stuff on this board while the paralympic closing ceromony is on. Or even when the paralympics is on at all! Save it for World Cup year. [Y]

 

Have some feckin'' respect for Gods sake.......

 

 

[kingsway 101]

A good, relevent and very factual post "lets be aving you!"

 

Just had a look on the official site home games section. The West Ham has got about 20 single outside tickets scattered all over the ground while the Liverpool game has 4!!

 

Nar we don''t need a bigger ground!

[Monty13 2,688]

Pretty much agree with everything you have said lets be Let''s be ''aving you. Kingsway too, although I don''t think I am quite as enthusiastic as you!

[Miss Jane Marple 0]

[quote user="Pudd"][quote user="City1st"]City would lose £1.4m in gate income from lost capacity while building work was in progress and it would take nine years to pay back the building cost[/quote] I''m really in two minds over this. The demand is clear - we regularly filled the stadium when in the third tier, but now it''s a closed shop... we''re at capacity and that means no room for youngsters to get season tickets when they''re getting into football etc.... We all know from experience that following football is addictive. While the ground remains full to capacity, and virtually impossible for new supporters to come along, less people will have the exposure to the live football which may get them hooked. Also, I''m not sure those figures account for knock on increased revenues... larger crowds means more valuable sponsorship opportunities, more teas, beers and pies sold at half time, more shirts being sold, and therefore more yellow and green in town promoting the club further. On the other hand, we also saw the damage that investing in bricks and mortar did when the team really needed that investment in the past. As much as I''d like the club to have a 35,000 seater stadium (which I think is about the right size for us), I''m swaying towards thinking it''s still a few years away from being the right move overall. JP[/quote]

With factors such as the demise of FONCY, the withdrawing of NCFC from its previous incarnation as a family-friendly club, the CEO keeping his cards close to his chest and the further economic turmoil the country finds itself in, my dear Pudd, I fear that should relegation become apparent in the not too distant future then things may not be quite as rosy in the garden.

I foresee more fans being ousted out from being a season ticket holder by the simple fact of not enough money to renew encompassed by the above factors.

[Yelloow Since 72 56]

I also agree with everything said by Let''s be ''aving you. I favour the gradual expansion approach of another tier to add around 4000 more seats. Hopefully most of the structural work could be done in the summer so there wouldn''t be so much disruption during the season. It''s time for long-term thinking again (''evolution not revolution'')!

[KeelansGlove 0]

Ok so time for my two penneth.

I understand and agree that on the basis of cost/benefit analysis it makes no sense to increase the size of the ground with such a large amount of variables and risks.

One not mentioned so far as the wastage due to the current supply and demand situation. We see this at other clubs for instance those down the road and Southampton. I am old enough to remember the days of being able to get up on a saturday morning and deciding to go to the game and turning up. This has not been the case fore many years but I would suspect you could roll up at poorman road at quarter to 3 of a saturday and have your choice. the one season in the last 20 I did not have a season ticket was the league one season.

This was for 2 reasons.

1) A small protest as to the shoddy management of our club

2) I presumed there would be no problem getting tickets therefore would not have to make a commitment.

I always intended to go to as many games as usual but as I am only local 50% of the time it didn''t seen to make a great deal of sense paying for a season ticket to attend around 50% of games as I had done for several years. Especially as the buy back options have never been exactly realistic.

Whilst there may be a waiting list and there are certainly oppertunities to get new people interested in coming to carrow road I would suggest there would almost certainly be a negative effect on season ticket sales should we suddenly get an additional 8000 seats and people feel that they no longer have to buy a season ticket to get to see a game at carrow road and could pick and choose. Sure the nett effect on numbers would be positive but when you add this scenario to the overall required price reductions to stimulate demand I would have to agree that increasing capacity at carrow road would probably never happen on the basis of a cost versus return (and risk) analysis.

But I also think that some of the discounts and marketing of NCFC are the reason we are having these problems and kids for a quid and cheap kids season tickets are vital for the next generation.

I would suggest that to make it viable the club would need to reduce the risks I would suggest the following options that would be workable although Im sure both would be undesireable to some.

1) as has been mentioned before Sponsorship of the new stand or indeed the whole ground. over the next decade or 2

2) a bond for additional seats. A number of clubs including West Ham have done this in the past. When you actually presell the new season tickets on the basis of occupancy for the next 5 or 10 years as if to say to people on the waiting list OK put you money where your mouth is.

So sell a season ticket fore the next 10 years to an additional 4000 people and call it the Umbongo Arena for a Million a year for ten years and there you have it. Keep ticket prices the same instigate new promotions and kids for a quid schemes to bring in the next generation and avoid having large numbers of casual tickets available and it might just work and not effect the playing budget.

I would say that building either another tier onto the Jarrold or the new City stand over the existing one avoiding a season with reduced capacity is absolutely essential as football is a habit to turn away even more supporters even for one season would make achieving the increased attendances even harder.

[GMF 937]

This has to be one of the longest treads for a while on here and I''ve just "lost" an hour of my life skimming through it!

 

As an aside, I have to say that the condescending tone of some of the replies on here reminds me why I rarely bother reading most of the threads on this board these days. Anyway, this is a major issue for the Club and, for what it''s worth, here are my thoughts on the matter.

 

Firstly, whilst it may be true, to quote one poster, "that our ticket income represents a small and dwindling proportion of the total revenue", the vaildity of this point diminishes if (heavens forbid) the Club is relegated and no longer enjoys the parachute payments arising from Premiership membership. I believe that Championship clubs currently get about £5m pa from TV money, in comparision to the circa £50m pa being enjoyed by the Premier League clubs. Ticket revenue would become circa 30 - 35% of total revenue in the Championship and should not be under estimated in these circumstances.

 

Picking up on one of Alan Bowkett''s previously quoted comments, on the presumption that it''s the City Stand that will be redeveloped first, a signficant proportion these seats (probably at least a third) currently carry no concessionary pricing whatsoever. I''m therefore surprised at the Board''s previous sugggestion that the payback period would be as long as 9 years. A cost to build of £2,500 per seat divided by 9 is circa £280 pa, whereas a seat in the lounges for the current season cost £790 each, which gives a signficantly shorter payback period. Obviously, this is for the top priced seats and the average revenue take per seat of the whole stand will be lower than this, but I wouldn''t expect this to be as low as £280 per seat even allowing for the concessions in the Thorpe & Wensum wings and corners. 

 

More of an observation than anything else, the capacity of the City Stand is less than 4,000, but all the talk seems to suggest that we''re seeking to go from circa 27,000 to 35,000 in one go? This doesn''t seem right to me, as this would mean a new stand with a capacity of 12,000 to cover the 8,000 increase. That would be a third larger than the Jarrold Stand.

 

I have been increasingly surprised how the year on year season ticket renewals have held up to the extent of needing to cap the season ticket sales at 22,000 for the past couple of seasons. However, I am most concerned at the increasing number of non season ticket supporters who now see themselves as becoming disenfranchised (not usually through their own choice I hasten to add) from supporting the Club they dearly love and want to follow on a regular basis. There are two reasons for this, firstly, the cost of casual ticket pricing (which now ranges from £28 to £58 per game for an adult member, with most games actually being in excess of £40 a pop) and, secondly, the limited availablity of casual tickets, even for those who can afford to go. There can be little doubt that demand exceeds supply with the ground as it currently is, which may be "good news" for the Carrow Road coffers, but may well be "bad news" for the longer term building of the core supporters base.

 

There also seems to be some very polarised views relating to the financing of any new stand. Certainly, it is correct to say that the old South Stand had to be developed throught lack of choice and, given we were in the Championship at the time with a turnover of circa £15m pa, there was no other option but to take out a long term loan to cover the redevelopment costs. However, circumstances are somewhat different now, assuming continued life in the Premiership, with current turnover in excess of £50m pa, and with suggestions that this is likely to be in excess of £70m pa from 2013-14 onwards. There is now the option to fund a redevelopment (at least in significant part) out of current turnover, without the need to burden the Club with a further £20m debt. Unless some unlikely wealthy benefactor comes along with a spare £10m, £15m or £20m, the Board is going to have a very difficult decision to make as to how much (if any) of the redevelopment costs are financed out of current revenue streams and how much from longer term loans. Needless to say, they will only ever have one chance to get it right and there will be much gnashing of teeth amoungst fans whichever choice they make. It will also be a decision which will forever be a "huge stick" for fans to beat them with should relegation occur thereafter.

 

Of course, such decisions may be taken out of their hands, should the unthinkable happen next May. I sincerely hope that they actually have that difficult choice to make, although there are other planning and highways issues to be addressed long before any building work can occur.

 

My own view remains that the current capacity causes major issues for the Club and its fan base, but these can, and almost certainly will be addressed if (and it''s a big IF) Premiership status is retained next May. 

 

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

After reading through the 14 pages I''ve decided to add my thoughts.The supporter base that Norwich City FC currently enjoys is going to grow. It is up to the club to maximise the growth.New children being born and new fans coming to City because of the unfortunate circumstances at PR [:D] (and other clubs) are two ways we can source two fans from. I''m studying a foundation degree at CCN at the moment and they are planning to expand in an attempt to attract more students- not just from Norwich/East Anglia. Maybe if they''d like a new Premiership football club to supprt, the students at CCN and UEA could show them the way to Carrow Road...Also, and this has been mentioned before, our attendances at the Carra have been really really good since the construction of the Jarrold- and maybe before then, I can''t remember..Whether the great support levels are down to low prices is one thing to debate but I''ve been to plenty of away games - in the Premiership and football league- and no matter what we''ve always come close to selling out allocations. Obviously when we play Sunderland away on a midweek night the support levels will go down but that is natural...Prices of premiership match tickets aren''t always as reasonable as ours, I can tell you that for free!Expansion HAS to happen eventually but it needs to happen in a calculated and cautious manner. I fully trust our Board to make the right choices.

[cloak 0]

renovating classic stadiums is a touchy subject. not to mention the smaller and more quaint they are, the more troubling the idea seems to be. generally i oppose projects solely focused on increasing capacity, but with a certain amount of emphasis on facility upgrades and a general approach of moderation, it can be an appealing project for many reasons.

[TIL 1010 5,123]

[quote user="Blackboots"]Won''t ever happen.
[/quote]

 I bet you would have a job trapping a bag of cement in those boots on your avatar [;)]