Larger capacity

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

I also remember the days in the 90s when Doomcaster was saying we had to reach average attendance of 16,000 to break even, and struggled to do that.

 

But now we could sell more tickets than we have for almost every game and even when we were in League 1 we were getting attendances near or at capacity (which was then a bit lower).  Expanding capacity has got to be in our long-term interest.

 

Staying up this season is crucial so the earliest it could happen is the end of next season.  I think its worth planning for expansion so if we stay up and have paid off all our debt, we can get it done.

[TIL 1010 4,718]

To those who advocate building a new stand by banking on future TV revenue just two words.......ITV Digital.

Now correct me if i am wrong but did not a lot of clubs catch a cold by spending money that they never ended up getting and some of you want us to tread that path ?

[kdncfc 27]

[quote user="York Canary"]I''d rather have a few more years in the Prem and clear all debts completely and invest in the squad/manager a bit more. Then look at it again[/quote]Pretty sure that we will be debt free at the end of this season.

[Matt Juler 148]

I''ve only skim read through the 7 pages, but not sure if anyone has mentioned the issue with Carrow Road?  I believe any stand larger than the current City Stand would require the club purchasing Carrow Road and either building the new stand with a tunnel for road traffic (similar to Sheffield Wednesday), or closing Carrow Road as a thoroughfare totally.

[BroadstairsR 2,138]

This is about the forth time that I can remember this topic coming up, and I always enjoy it.

 

There are decent points on either side of the argument. I would love us to have a 30-35 000 all-seater, and feel that our recent support goes some way towards justyfying it. The average of near 25, 000 in League 1 was quite fantastic. It came about at at time when the fortunes of our Club were at their lowest ebb for many, many a year. The number of fans who refused their refund at the outset of this season is also worthy of note as is the continued high level of interest.. 

 

Our geographical position might also be working in our favour at last. The nearest opportunity to watch live Premiership football is Villa Park, so with no immediate opposition we must be picking up a lot of fringe support. Much of this might well remain for life, so catch as many as you can while you can. Supporters don''t just buy seats, as we know, more faces to feed and more Club Shop customers will materialise as well. There are other fringe benefits to the Club entailed in getting in a few thousand more regulars.

 

The antis cite the enormous cost and the possibilty of the fortunes of the Club changing. I would not want to risk serious debt again, having just got that monkey of our backs (at the ending of this season?) As long as I can remember this has been a sheet anchor hinduring pregress.

 

 One time on this topic somebody mentioned a feasability study, carried out by UEA brains. Does anybody know if this was or is to be undertaken?

 

If it does transpire then I feel one of the things that they will look into would be the feasability of serious sponsorship. This would make a vast difference, either way.

 

Neither is Premiership survival quite so vital, I feel. If relegated (ugh!) we would still benefit from a sound financial base, parachute monies and a pretty  good squad of players (and the income from those we might lose.) I forsee us challenging for top-six, at least,  in the Championship and this status fills seats.

 

 

[Jonzey 0]

I take the valid points about the financial viability of building more capacity. But looking at the figures as a reason to build or not to build isn''t the only viewpoint.

 

I feel that if the opportunity is there to increase capacity it shouldn''t just be for bank balance reasons. Assuming current demand continues to plateau or even increase the main reason for more capacity should be so more people can watch.

 

Furthermore with increased TV money, surely all clubs could unite and divert this money into saving supporters match day costs, rather than all of it going to even bigger player pay packets? Afterall matchday revenue is now dwarved by TV revenue. There must be a way!

 

[ricardo 7,339]

[quote user="Jonzey"]

I take the valid points about the financial viability of building more capacity. But looking at the figures as a reason to build or not to build isn''t the only viewpoint.

 

I feel that if the opportunity is there to increase capacity it shouldn''t just be for bank balance reasons. Assuming current demand continues to plateau or even increase the main reason for more capacity should be so more people can watch.

 

Furthermore with increased TV money, surely all clubs could unite and divert this money into saving supporters match day costs, rather than all of it going to even bigger player pay packets? Afterall matchday revenue is now dwarved by TV revenue. There must be a way!

 

[/quote]It''s never going to happen. If you can fill a stadium at £x per seat there is absolutely no reason to charge £x-1. The pricing will always be structured to maximise income. It''s a business not a branch of Social Services.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Monty13"]Nutty a mixture of loans, sponsorship and club income and spread the costs as much as possible to avoid impact on the playing budget. Its the only viable way I would have thought.[/quote]

 

Whichever way you want to dress it all of those things take away from the football budget. I reckon the least impact on the football team would be to sell 20m worth from the squad straight off. At least it would then have no further drain in the following seasons. We just about got away with it when we sold Kevin Reeves...

 

 

[yoda 0]

It''s been said that creating 2-3000 seats in the hotel corner wouldn''t be cost effective,however it would at least take the capacity up to 30,000 which would help to reduce the season ticket waiting list and would prevent the need to spend 20 odd million on a new city stand which could possibly backfire .

[Barclay hero 0]

I wonder how many of the "Anti''s" have season tickets already and how many of the "Pro''s" don''t.  Its totally unscientific but I wouldnt mind betting that the majority of opinion is split this wayPersonally I think that to grow the club the stadium WILL have to expand.  We have a smallish stadium for a Premier League club - 10 years from now 28,000 will be considered tiny if football continues to grow - in the same way that Loftus Road is tiny by current standards.  Its not just about revenue - its about image, ensuring our stand is bigger than your stand.  Investors of the future wont want to get involved unless they see a 35,000 or 40,000 plus megadome with their name plastered all over it.  Funding it - and when to fund it - is the tricky question.  Do we go sooner rather than later?  Increased TV revenues will help but football is cyclical and we will get relegated at some point.  Will we be strong enough to bounce back?  Do we leave development now, concentrate on the team but then find the same issue further down the line - and that its likely to cost more too.  What happens if TV revenues suddenly get cut?  Do we get long term loans, sponsorship deals or partnerships?  Its enough for Tom Cavendish but would that place our club in peril a few years down the line, especially if the partner got into financial trouble - we may need to buy them out in a very short space of time or risk losing the groundThis is the problem the board faces.  Stick or Twist.  I trust them to make the correct decision - thats why McNally is CEO, not City1st or Tom Cavendish or Steady On......I certainly wouldnt want to be the one with that on my shoulders....

[Monty13 2,229]

What a reasonable response nutty....yes lets sell Howson, Pilkington, Bassong and Elliot Bennett, that should about cover it and have the least impact on the team.

20 million spread across a number of years plus a sponsorship deal for the stand (how does that effect the playing budget again, remind me?) could easily be accommodated by say 4.5 million a year out of our total income over 5 years, but your right lets bite the bullet now and sell a load of players because using roughly a third of just the extra money we would receive from TV rights in the premiership from next year and putting that towards a stadium (not to mention that being reduced by any extra generated ticket income) would be madness......

[Bill 1,788]

Dearie, dear me

 

is nothing ''anti'' about pointing out the blindingly obvious - neither does posting up absurd speculation and even sillier dreams does not make you a better supporter

 

The figures are there to see. It is not a few months either. The projected timescale is 18th - 24 months. Roughly the time it took for us to progress through 2 divisions.

 

The club knows there is not the demand. Check the season ticket waiting list, Check the attendances at cup games and even more pertinent how much lower City season tickets are compared to other PL clubs. That is the point. We are filling Carrow Road by offering very cheap tickets. That will not sustain the cost of redevelopment. And as Matt Juler pointed out - it is a bit more complicated than simply putting up a stand.

 

As to the initial increased TV money that will be going to other clubs, who will simply use it to strengthen their squad - with us left behind.

 

Two years is a long while. A long while for those squeaking about ''fans'' not being able to buy tickets when it will mean no casual tickets for that period. 4000 season ticket holders from the main Stand will have to be relocated.

 

If this buffoonery was ever a serious consideration for the club then they would have been running down the number of seasn tickets so as to have quite a bit of slack (casual tickets), to thus be able to accomodate the displaced Main Stand season ticket holders. They have not - and it is known that a fair number of those on the waiting list are not those that purchase casual tickets.

 

Squeak all you like but this is not a practical or viable proposition for the foreseeable future - and the club knows it.

 

 

 

 

[ricardo 7,339]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Monty13"]Nutty a mixture of loans, sponsorship and club income and spread the costs as much as possible to avoid impact on the playing budget. Its the only viable way I would have thought.[/quote]

 

Whichever way you want to dress it all of those things take away from the football budget. I reckon the least impact on the football team would be to sell 20m worth from the squad straight off. At least it would then have no further drain in the following seasons. We just about got away with it when we sold Kevin Reeves...

 

 

[/quote]Yeah, but how much of that did Watling trouser?Oh er, sorry, I mean wallet.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Monty13"]Nutty a mixture of loans, sponsorship and club income and spread the costs as much as possible to avoid impact on the playing budget. Its the only viable way I would have thought.[/quote]

 

Whichever way you want to dress it all of those things take away from the football budget. I reckon the least impact on the football team would be to sell 20m worth from the squad straight off. At least it would then have no further drain in the following seasons. We just about got away with it when we sold Kevin Reeves...

 

 

[/quote]

Yeah, but how much of that did Watling trouser?

Oh er, sorry, I mean wallet.
[/quote]

 

Now then Rickyyyyyyyyyy. It was the late great Sir Arthur and he pocketed nothing. Although I think the fans slogan at the time became "No Reeves, No Future, No Fans....

 

Monty, I thought it was a reasonable response. I was citing what had been done successfully in the past. Reeves went for 1m and the stand probably cost the same give or take. Where as the Jarrold is still impacting the player budget 8 years later.

 

 

[TIL 1010 4,718]

[quote user="yoda"]It''s been said that creating 2-3000 seats in the hotel corner wouldn''t be cost effective,however it would at least take the capacity up to 30,000 which would help to reduce the season ticket waiting list and would prevent the need to spend 20 odd million on a new city stand which could possibly backfire .[/quote]

A bit of a big ask Yoda trying to squeeze that number of seats into such a small area after all the Jarrold holds 8,000 so just look at the relative sizes of the areas they cover.

[Barclay hero 0]

Oh dear City1st youre obviously in one of those moods.  I normally respect your posts but struggling with this one[quote user="City1st"] 

is nothing ''anti'' about pointing out the blindingly obvious - neither does posting up absurd speculation and even sillier dreams does not make you a better supporter

 [/quote]

I used the word "Anti" and "Pro" to differentiate those that were stating the club would not expand and those that stating they will.  The club have clearly stated they would look at the situation once they had been in the Prem for 2 or 3 years.  They have not ruled out one route or the other at this stage, at least in public

[quote user="City1st"]

The figures are there to see. It is not a few months either. The projected timescale is 18th - 24 months. Roughly the time it took for us to progress through 2 divisions. 

 [/quote]

It depends what the club plan to do to expand.  The Jarrold took less than a season but if its the City Stand to be redeveloped there are more considerations - offices and changing rooms for one.  So not arguing over timescales.  I remember the original plans for the city stand was that it would take a 2nd deck - as would the Jarrold - though I wouldnt say with any certainty these ideals were followed through

[quote user="City1st"]

The club knows there is not the demand. Check the season ticket waiting list, Check the attendances at cup games and even more pertinent how much lower City season tickets are compared to other PL clubs. That is the point. We are filling Carrow Road by offering very cheap tickets. That will not sustain the cost of redevelopment. And as Matt Juler pointed out - it is a bit more complicated than simply putting up a stand.

  [/quote]

As I said in my earlier post its not just about the now.  Its about future development.  I agree - we dont need the extra seats now.  But if we have any aspirations of pushing up the Premier League...to Europa League or even beyond... we will need them.  And is now the time to do it?

[quote user="City1st"]

As to the initial increased TV money that will be going to other clubs, who will simply use it to strengthen their squad - with us left behind.

   [/quote]

Yes.  Thats the gamble.  In the main those clubs have already expanded - we''re playing catchup. 

[quote user="City1st"]

Two years is a long while. A long while for those squeaking about ''fans'' not being able to buy tickets when it will mean no casual tickets for that period. 4000 season ticket holders from the main Stand will have to be relocated. 

If this buffoonery was ever a serious consideration for the club then

they would have been running down the number of seasn tickets so as to

have quite a bit of slack (casual tickets), to thus be able to

accomodate the displaced Main Stand season ticket holders. They have not

- and it is known that a fair number of those on the waiting list are

not those that purchase casual tickets.

    [/quote]

No need for the insult about squeaking.  And who knows how the club will manage it - they may decide to run down the numbers first, they may decide not to renew a certain number for the period.  I would imagine the club would do a certain amount of research 1st.  Of course it depends on how the ground is expanded - if a second deck was added to the Jarrold (for example) it could (theoretically) be done with minimal impact.  As for existing ST holders - I know of several that arent even City fans but just want to go and watch some football because they live in this part of the world

[quote user="City1st"]

Squeak all you like but this is not a practical or viable proposition for the foreseeable future - and the club knows it.

     [/quote]

 

Thats your opinion.  Ive stated mine, others have stated theirs.  When the club come out and state that ground expansion will not happen for the foreseeable future you can resurrect this thread with "I Told You So"

[Bill 1,788]

"could easily be accommodated by say 4.5 million a year out of our total income over 5 years ...

 

...because using roughly a third of just the extra money we would receive from TV rights in the premiership from next year "

 

the lunatics have truly taken over

 

no consideration that we might be relegated, that relegation would deliever a massive £30m drop in income and a £40m drop the year after (compared to PL income) - nope, everything will carry on as normal

 

 

[Bill 1,788]

" I would imagine the club would do a certain amount of research 1st"

 

They already have

 

 

[Steady On... 0]

[quote user="City1st"]

" I would imagine the club would do a certain amount of research 1st"

 

They already have

 

 

[/quote]

You can moan all you like. This is happening.

[yoda 0]

You never know we might unearth a player that''s coverted by all the big clubs and the sale alone would pay for the new stand,unlikely but that would be a handy solution !

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="yoda"]You never know we might unearth a player that''s coverted by all the big clubs and the sale alone would pay for the new stand,unlikely but that would be a handy solution ![/quote]

 

Not as unlikely as all that Yoda. They come through every little while like Bellamy and Sutton. Either that or a youngster we pick up from elsewhere really comes good. It would be the most perfect scenario and you can bet that consideration influenced the club''s decision to heavily invest in the academy to get category one in the EPPP.

 

However if it happened and the player was sold in order to invest in "tangible fixed assets" this board would meltdown....

 

 

 

 

[Monty13 2,229]

Once again a twisting of words, I was not suggesting we use the extra revenue from TV money if we stay up to fund the project (Although if we do it could be paid for in 18 months, the amount of time your telling everyone it would take to build, would that make you happy?). I was saying that if broke costs down to roughly 4.5 mil per year over 5 years this would only equate to a third of the extra TV money, I wasn''t saying we should rely on that money to do it. I don''t know how the club would decide to finance it, how much we could get for stand sponsorship or how long a period the banks would lend us money.

The threat of relegation will always hang over us, bigger clubs than us have gone down and some have never made it back. Constant scare mongering over the threat of relegation caused by any removal of potential funds from the playing budget does not make you right. The club has been paying back large chucks of debt since we got promoted yet we managed to survive the first year and surpass expectations and have spent heavily again this year.

If we build a new stand and get relegated then many on here will point to it as the excuse for why whether it is or not. To be an unending cycle of pumping every penny into the playing squad with no hope of ever growing the club bigger is lunacy in my opinion.

[No Swoop Done 0]

Appears City1st is Anti-expansion regardless of any argument reading all the posts. Do they reside in that stand and would hate the feeling of being woken up by 3000+ more fans behind them making any form of noise? Causing queues in new bars, toilets at half time? The need to go through turnstiles and so on.

The stand is old, it''s awful to look at and full of blankets and flasks. It''s only for a season, not an eternity. It will enhance the club, not drag it down into the dark ages. 10+ years of 20k+ crowds and won''t go back to the lesser attendances you''ve got inside your head because of trends. Treneds would of said in League 1 we should of dipped like many other clubs. We didn''t, we showed our support. The season ticket waiting list is still enviable of many other clubs, so a bit daft to question that. It''s the 21st Century, Entertainment is the business to be in, not people stuck in their ways because they don''t like change.

[Bws Cat 0]

Yet swoop, nowhere in your posts does it state any numbers to support your idea that we can build an expansion to the city stand.

You claim city1st is "Anti-expansion" but plenty of times I have heard him preach how we need to stop being "Ever so ''umble". I agree with him, let''s wait until WE ARE SURE.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="No Swoop Done"]

Appears City1st is Anti-expansion regardless of any argument reading all the posts. Do they reside in that stand and would hate the feeling of being woken up by 3000+ more fans behind them making any form of noise? Causing queues in new bars, toilets at half time? The need to go through turnstiles and so on.

The stand is old, it''s awful to look at and full of blankets and flasks. It''s only for a season, not an eternity. It will enhance the club, not drag it down into the dark ages. 10+ years of 20k+ crowds and won''t go back to the lesser attendances you''ve got inside your head because of trends. Treneds would of said in League 1 we should of dipped like many other clubs. We didn''t, we showed our support.

 

 The season ticket waiting list is still enviable of many other clubs,

 

 so a bit daft to question that. It''s the 21st Century, Entertainment is the business to be in, not people stuck in their ways because they don''t like change.

[/quote]

 

You may be right, but I haven''t seen an announcement from the club as to what it now is. Do you know? All I saw was that we had sold the 22,000 season tickets that were available, with some  of those sales to people on the waiting list. The club didn''t say how many fans had not renewed (ie how many from the waiting list had been necessary to fill the gap) or what the waiting list now stood at.

[No Swoop Done 0]

BW''s Cat "Yet swoop, nowhere in your posts does it state any numbers to support your idea that we can build an expansion to the city stand. You claim city1st is ''Anti-expansion'' but plenty of times I have heard him preach how we need to stop being ''Ever so ''umble''. I agree with him, let''s wait until WE ARE SURE"

Why make figures up only the club know? City1st is quoting magical figures they have no concrete evidence about. They are preaching as though our support is dwindling, are you also over looking that? I take the QPR game for example - our only home Premier League game this season, they took more of the Jarrold and didn''t fill it. That is why the attendance was below par. The Mickey Mouse cup is always poor in the early stages for us, when has it ever been over 16k without the concessions over the past 10 years? Keep to the facts the humble fan has from public stats.

City1st is extremeley anti knocking down the Main Stand for progression, that rings clear throughout this, as others say with cigarette accountancy without definite figures. Some say 1 year for Jarrold, they''re saying 18-24 months for a new one, that''s how inaccurate City1st is twisting any such figures to suit their argument.

We may be humble but both make it sound like our attendances are dwindling. I begger to ask you have you opened your eyes at Carrow Road over the past 24 months or so? Depressive bunch on here wanting to moan about that? Crickey!!! Listen to yourselves.

Purple - I''m assuming there is still a waiting list. How big, I don''t know but it''s not as bad some of the above are making out to be some form of crises how they are writing. Making it sound we are already heading back to the days of 16k attendances.

[Blackboots 0]

Won''t ever happen.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="No Swoop Done"]

BW''s Cat "Yet swoop, nowhere in your posts does it state any numbers to support your idea that we can build an expansion to the city stand. You claim city1st is ''Anti-expansion'' but plenty of times I have heard him preach how we need to stop being ''Ever so ''umble''. I agree with him, let''s wait until WE ARE SURE"

Why make figures up only the club know? City1st is quoting magical figures they have no concrete evidence about. They are preaching as though our support is dwindling, are you also over looking that? I take the QPR game for example - our only home Premier League game this season, they took more of the Jarrold and didn''t fill it. That is why the attendance was below par. The Mickey Mouse cup is always poor in the early stages for us, when has it ever been over 16k without the concessions over the past 10 years? Keep to the facts the humble fan has from public stats.

City1st is extremeley anti knocking down the Main Stand for progression, that rings clear throughout this, as others say with cigarette accountancy without definite figures. Some say 1 year for Jarrold, they''re saying 18-24 months for a new one, that''s how inaccurate City1st is twisting any such figures to suit their argument.

We may be humble but both make it sound like our attendances are dwindling. I begger to ask you have you opened your eyes at Carrow Road over the past 24 months or so? Depressive bunch on here wanting to moan about that? Crickey!!! Listen to yourselves.

Purple - I''m assuming there is still a waiting list. How big, I don''t know but it''s not as bad some of the above are making out to be some form of crises how they are writing. Making it sound we are already heading back to the days of 16k attendances.

[/quote]

 

Thanks for the reply. I''m sure there is still a waiting list. But the club didn''t give figures for renewals or for the waiting list now. Whether that means the waiting list has shrunk I have no idea. A cynic would suspect so.

[SwindonCanary 455]

At the moment it is almost a ''closed shop'' on match days.I think way back, to when I first started supporting Norwich City. My twin brother and myself asked our Dad if he would take us and being the SuperDad that he was, he took us. From that first match I was hooked !Today''s games this would not happen, All three of us would have to become ''Supermembers'' then when applying, are their even two seats together ? I doubt very much that I would be able to get 3 seats together. We need to expand to ensure the next generation support our club and not some far off bigger clubs. 

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="yoda"]You never know we might unearth a player that''s coverted by all the big clubs and the sale alone would pay for the new stand,unlikely but that would be a handy solution ![/quote]IMO that''s the only way we could help fund it without the saddling of debt.