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yoda

Larger capacity

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Silly idea I know, but why not just buy back the hotel and then fill in the corner of the ground where that brick wall is at the moment with seats.   Then, once the work has been done sell the hotel on.  It will be a little smaller than before and won''t look over the ground but would enable a good number of seats to be added to the capacity  - and would help make the stadium  feel more enclosed and add to the atomosphere.   

 

 

 

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The problem with corner infills is the fact it only fit''s about 3,000 people. Not really worth IMO.

Plus the nonsense about "What if the away fans riot and stuf"

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[quote user="Steady On..."][quote user="City1st"]

"There is zero issue here. We will expand the ground as we expand as a football team. Thats natural progression. If people miss a few games in the city stand so be it."

 

I don''t know what a ''zero issue'' is but I do know this would be a major problem the club doesn''t need.

 

1. Those being moved are some of the most long term supporters with seats being held for decades within their family. They carry far more weight than a few glory hunters.

 

2. The cost. At full capacity for every game the revenue would just about cover the interest on the loan,. Factor in lower ticket price to stimulate demand or relegation and you are looking at draining money from elsewhere to subsidise it.

 

3. TV money. I don''t think some fans have a clue how little the gate receipts are as part of the overall revenue. If there was any loss of TV money the club would be in a very tight spot. It could perhaps shift players off it''s books, but not this type of debt.

 

4. Attendances. There have been games last season where there was not a sellout. To aim towards break even the ground would have to be full for EVERY games, with NO further price reductions. That is exceedingly unlikely.

 

At the moment the club is doing exeptionally well. It doesn''t need to put that at risk for some folly to pander to the whims of a few over excited happy clappies and glory hunters

 

 

[/quote]

 

I think the last staement illuminates what your really all about, you just don''t want the club to expand because you have little old Norwich mentality. You can''t halt change, it is coming, the stadium will get bigger when it''s tiome to get bigger. I honestly don''t think we''re too far away from that. supply and demand, very simple business.

[/quote]I don''t think he''s saying that.  I think City1st is looking at it in a logical way.  And the short answer is unless the club finds £20m+ down the back of the sofa. A stadium expansion at this moment in time is not particularly financially viable.

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"I think the last staement illuminates what your really all about, you just don''t want the club to expand because you have little old Norwich mentality. You can''t halt change, it is coming, the stadium will get bigger when it''s tiome to get bigger. I honestly don''t think we''re too far away from that. supply and demand, very simple business"

 

That''s exceedingly stupid, even by your standards

 

The demand has just about peaked, hence tickets being unsold at our home Premier League games. Also the demand is only so high because of the club keeping season ticket prices low enough to stimulate demand - as they do with cup games. For this development to be viable the prices would actually need to rise - where demand dictates they will need to fall.

 

That is the dilema the club and the grown ups are facing. We don''t all live in your make believe world/

 

 

 

ps might I suggest you read my first post on this thread about the capacity - and maybe you should stop hiding behind some years ago registered name - you might be taken a little more serious then

 

 


.

 

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It''s a hard one.

You are right, it would be paid for by money that would otherwise be given on the team.

But equally, there is only so much money the club can make from the current capacity, and if the club are to progress a bigger stadium will be required, as they can''t keep rising the prices. If they do, the current demand will subside.

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You have missed on huge problem, as listed above

 

The extra capacity will barely cover the interest on the loan, never mind making any money

 

and that is with it being absolutely full every game

 

 

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[quote user="City1st"]

 

The extra capacity will barely cover the interest on the loan, never mind making any money

 

and that is with it being absolutely full every game

 

[/quote]Can you substantiate this statement of fact please?On the plus side it''s nice to see that the fag packet accountants have confirmed that there will not be any increase in ticket prices during the next nine years, imagine what an effect just a paltry 5%pa increase might have on the costings viability for any proposed stadium expansion? Profits of doom indeed!!

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The guys got nothing, just plucked out the air figures and a vendetta about this club expanding. It''s going to happen whether he likes it or not. He can whine all he likes

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[quote user="lake district canary"]

Silly idea I know, but why not just buy back the hotel and then fill in the corner of the ground where that brick wall is at the moment with seats.   Then, once the work has been done sell the hotel on.  It will be a little smaller than before and won''t look over the ground but would enable a good number of seats to be added to the capacity  - and would help make the stadium  feel more enclosed and add to the atomosphere.   

........and just how much do you think an hotel of that size and standing would cost to purchase? probably as much, or more, than building a new stand.

 

 

 

[/quote]

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There''s two phases one with the City stand and the other is the Jarrold. But the thinking is, is its too expensive to build a whole new city stand so the new thinking is just to increase the Jarrold expansion phase.

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[quote user="BWs Cat"]If we do build an extra stand it MUST be called "The wizards tower" in his lords honour.[/quote]

 

I''d vote for that Tiddles old fruit. [Y]

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The club will do the  analysis and due diligence but basically a new stand makes financial sense if we stay up longer term but not if we are relegated. Simply the return from 8000 seats at say 300/seat is more than the cost of capital on 20,000,000 of 1m at 5% and therefore would generate positive cash flows providing more cash for the player budget 

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[quote user="T"]

The club will do the  analysis and due diligence but basically a new stand makes financial sense if we stay up longer term but not if we are relegated. Simply the return from 8000 seats at say 300/seat is more than the cost of capital on 20,000,000 of 1m at 5% and therefore would generate positive cash flows providing more cash for the player budget 

[/quote]

^^This is what I believe. ^^

 

How long will we stay up without a major benefactor?

 

What impact would taking the money from the football manager have on our ability to stay up without a major benefactor?

 

In my view the length of time we remain in the premier league should not be a reason to build the new stand. The only consideration should be whether we can realistically afford it while giving the football manager every chance of remaining in the premier league.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="T"]

The club will do the  analysis and due diligence but basically a new stand makes financial sense if we stay up longer term but not if we are relegated. Simply the return from 8000 seats at say 300/seat is more than the cost of capital on 20,000,000 of 1m at 5% and therefore would generate positive cash flows providing more cash for the player budget 

[/quote]

^^This is what I believe. ^^

 

How long will we stay up without a major benefactor?

 

What impact would taking the money from the football manager have on our ability to stay up without a major benefactor?

 

Managers are always going to need and want more money for the squad, however much they are given, using your argument we would never make any capital investment in the ground, the two things have to go side by side.

In my view the length of time we remain in the premier league should not be a reason to build the new stand. The only consideration should be whether we can realistically afford it while giving the football manager every chance of remaining in the premier league.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

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Managers are always going to need and want more money for the squad,

however much they are given, using your argument we would never make any

capital investment in the ground, the two things have to go side by

side.

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[quote user="Crabby"]Managers are always going to need and want more money for the squad, however much they are given, using your argument we would never make any capital investment in the ground, the two things have to go side by side.[/quote]

 

I don''t think that was what I was saying. We obviously have made capital investment in the ground and when I last looked at the accounts we are still making it. However the current stadium is now in the best condition I ever known it to be. We have four safe and servicable stands. The oldest of which is the river end which would probably be the next to need upgrading.

 

Last time we were forced to take money from the football budget. The south stand had to be rebuilt. This time we have a choice and my view is that we can''t afford not to give the football manager the best opportunity possible to keep us in the premier league.

 

 

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From Alan Bowkett -

"But he pointed out that it cost about £2,500 per seat in a “new build”, so it would cost £20m to increase capacity by 8,000.

City would lose £1.4m in gate income from lost capacity while building work was in progress and it would take nine years to pay back the building cost "

 

The problem we have is too many fans are living in the past, romancing about days of yore when grounds were filled with flat capped supporters whose gate money was virtually the clubs only source of income.

 

Last season the clubs income was around £75m, previous receipts suggest that gate money will be around £7m. Increasing capacity by 20% will only increase that amount by 20% ie £1.75m.

 

Cost of construction plus projected losses through lower capacity £21.4m.  At a relatively low interest rate of 9% (£1.92m) that return does not cover the interest payments, leaving us with a £20m plus debt.

 

Again this assumes every game will sellout. They aren''t at 27,000 - and that is with very reduced prices.

 

The simple fact is football has left many behind and it is a hard fact to grasp.

 

We need to look to the future, not ape our not too bright neighbours by constantly clinging on to the past.

 

 

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[quote user="City1st"]

From Alan Bowkett -

"But he pointed out that it cost about £2,500 per seat in a “new build”, so it would cost £20m to increase capacity by 8,000.

City would lose £1.4m in gate income from lost capacity while building work was in progress and it would take nine years to pay back the building cost "

 

The problem we have is too many fans are living in the past, romancing about days of yore when grounds were filled with flat capped supporters whose gate money was virtually the clubs only source of income.

 

Last season the clubs income was around £75m, previous receipts suggest that gate money will be around £7m. Increasing capacity by 20% will only increase that amount by 20% ie £1.75m.

 

Cost of construction plus projected losses through lower capacity £21.4m.  At a relatively low interest rate of 9% (£1.92m) that return does not cover the interest payments, leaving us with a £20m plus debt.

 

Again this assumes every game will sellout. They aren''t at 27,000 - and that is with very reduced prices.

 

The simple fact is football has left many behind and it is a hard fact to grasp.

 

We need to look to the future, not ape our not too bright neighbours by constantly clinging on to the past.

 

 

[/quote]

If those figures are correct then it`s hard to argue for a new stand, but Mcnally did say that if we had 3years in the Prem we would expand the ground, they may rethink that if the finances dont stack up.

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[quote user="City1st"]

From Alan Bowkett -

"But he pointed out that it cost about £2,500 per seat in a “new build”, so it would cost £20m to increase capacity by 8,000.

City would lose £1.4m in gate income from lost capacity while building work was in progress and it would take nine years to pay back the building cost "

 

The problem we have is too many fans are living in the past, romancing about days of yore when grounds were filled with flat capped supporters whose gate money was virtually the clubs only source of income.

 

Last season the clubs income was around £75m, previous receipts suggest that gate money will be around £7m. Increasing capacity by 20% will only increase that amount by 20% ie £1.75m.

 

Cost of construction plus projected losses through lower capacity £21.4m.  At a relatively low interest rate of 9% (£1.92m) that return does not cover the interest payments, leaving us with a £20m plus debt.

 

Again this assumes every game will sellout. They aren''t at 27,000 - and that is with very reduced prices.

 

The simple fact is football has left many behind and it is a hard fact to grasp.

 

We need to look to the future, not ape our not too bright neighbours by constantly clinging on to the past.

 

 

[/quote]That''s about the size of the problem as it stands at the moment.  And purely based on my opinion,  it just isn''t worth saddling the club with another £20m+ debt for a handful of seats that aren''t guaranteed to have an arses on them.

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"but Mcnally did say that if we had 3years in the Prem we would expand the ground,"

 

Sorry, but he didn''t ever say that

 

check the thread from the beginning

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="City1st"]

From Alan Bowkett -

"But he pointed out that it cost about £2,500 per seat in a “new build”, so it would cost £20m to increase capacity by 8,000.

City would lose £1.4m in gate income from lost capacity while building work was in progress and it would take nine years to pay back the building cost "

 

The problem we have is too many fans are living in the past, romancing about days of yore when grounds were filled with flat capped supporters whose gate money was virtually the clubs only source of income.

 

Last season the clubs income was around £75m, previous receipts suggest that gate money will be around £7m. Increasing capacity by 20% will only increase that amount by 20% ie £1.75m.

 

Cost of construction plus projected losses through lower capacity £21.4m.  At a relatively low interest rate of 9% (£1.92m) that return does not cover the interest payments, leaving us with a £20m plus debt.

 

Again this assumes every game will sellout. They aren''t at 27,000 - and that is with very reduced prices.

 

The simple fact is football has left many behind and it is a hard fact to grasp.

 

We need to look to the future, not ape our not too bright neighbours by constantly clinging on to the past.

 

 

[/quote]

Do you have a life?

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[quote user="City1st"]

From Alan Bowkett -

"But he pointed out that it cost about £2,500 per seat in a “new build”, so it would cost £20m to increase capacity by 8,000.

City would lose £1.4m in gate income from lost capacity while building work was in progress and it would take nine years to pay back the building cost "

 

The problem we have is too many fans are living in the past, romancing about days of yore when grounds were filled with flat capped supporters whose gate money was virtually the clubs only source of income.

 

Last season the clubs income was around £75m, previous receipts suggest that gate money will be around £7m. Increasing capacity by 20% will only increase that amount by 20% ie £1.75m.

 

Cost of construction plus projected losses through lower capacity £21.4m.  At a relatively low interest rate of 9% (£1.92m) that return does not cover the interest payments, leaving us with a £20m plus debt.

 

Again this assumes every game will sellout. They aren''t at 27,000 - and that is with very reduced prices.

 

The simple fact is football has left many behind and it is a hard fact to grasp.

 

We need to look to the future, not ape our not too bright neighbours by constantly clinging on to the past.

 

 

[/quote]

Do you have a life?

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[quote user="City1st"]

"but Mcnally did say that if we had 3years in the Prem we would expand the ground,"

 

Sorry, but he didn''t ever say that

 

check the thread from the beginning

 

I believe what was said was that the club hoped to begin stadium expansion if we had 3 years in the premier league, at least that`s what was reported in the EDP,  certainly not a definite but an aspiration maybe.

 

 

 

[/quote]

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[quote user="Rastaman"][quote user="City1st"]

From Alan Bowkett -

"But he pointed out that it cost about £2,500 per seat in a “new build”, so it would cost £20m to increase capacity by 8,000.

City would lose £1.4m in gate income from lost capacity while building work was in progress and it would take nine years to pay back the building cost "

 

The problem we have is too many fans are living in the past, romancing about days of yore when grounds were filled with flat capped supporters whose gate money was virtually the clubs only source of income.

 

Last season the clubs income was around £75m, previous receipts suggest that gate money will be around £7m. Increasing capacity by 20% will only increase that amount by 20% ie £1.75m.

 

Cost of construction plus projected losses through lower capacity £21.4m.  At a relatively low interest rate of 9% (£1.92m) that return does not cover the interest payments, leaving us with a £20m plus debt.

 

Again this assumes every game will sellout. They aren''t at 27,000 - and that is with very reduced prices.

 

The simple fact is football has left many behind and it is a hard fact to grasp.

 

We need to look to the future, not ape our not too bright neighbours by constantly clinging on to the past.

 

 

[/quote] Do you have a life?[/quote]

 

Dezza, Butler, Wing Wang, Shades of Grey....

 

Where are you.. WHERE ARE YOU ... LET''S BE ''AVIN'' YOU.....

 

 

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Fully agree that lost revenue whilst building needs to be included.

1.75m income appears low as 2.4m would only need 8000 seats at 300 per seat or 10 tickets at 30 quid. Also need to include increase in other match day income not just gate receipts.

Interest rate of 9% is too conservative as this is higher than the rate on exsisting loans which were negotiated when interest rates were much higher.  Loan could be secured on the guaranteed future TV money.

Basically it would work if you fill the extra 8000 seats at least 5 times a season.  I used 5% but even at 6% interest rate you only need to be generating 1.2m to cover cost of capital which is just 150 quid per seat. The basic sums will have be done otherwise we would not be considering it and no other premiership club would have expánded their stadiums but the extra demand to make it work will only be there in the premiership. It would be a real burden if we get relegated but help to generate extra revenue to help establish us as a premiership club if we stay up.  

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