Premier League Clubs - Discussion On Spending Limits

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

Premier League is the best, and the most exciting league in the world. Every top coach has been here, and Guardiola(?) will be at Chelsea after his one year sabbatical.

All the top players when coming here say they want to compete against the best. We have five or six clubs that can compete at European level compared to most countries that have one or two top teams. Spain, it''s Real Madrid,Barcelona and then the also rans. A dull league.

No one in the world is interested in other European leagues, it''s the Premier Leangue that everyone watches because it is the best.

Souless? You must be joking, right?Have you already forgotten last season''s Man City v QPR final minute of the final game? Premier League boring? where do get that idea from?

FFP is the brainchild of Michel Platini and other Euroi cohorts who hate the English game and want to wrap it up in ridiculous red tape. Like most Euro schemes it''s further encroachment of the nanny state on the free market. FFP won''t save English football it will send it back to the 70''s and 80''s.

[ricardo 7,341]

[quote user="City1st"]

"We have the best players and every top manager wants to play here and coach here"

 

absolute nonsense, if not why are they not all here ?

 

"thereby ending English domination of Euro club competitions"

 

in your rather mad delusions, maybe - not in the real world

 

"It creates an exciting league"

 

It doesn''t, It has created a stagnant league where the top five or six places are contested by the top clubs and the rest cling on in hope of the riches ... nothing else

 

"big clubs will continue to outbid us for talent as they have always done since league football began over a hundred years ago"

 

so how come clubs like us not only finished near the top, but actually won the title, over those previous years ?

 

What you are trying to defend is a glorified freak show that is beginning to fall apart. This is well recognised by most - and the above story is about how to deal with it BEFORE in caves in on itself.

 

Something that is so reliant upon one variable (TV coverage) is not in a very safe place. Not only for the now obvious fact of having the tail wagging the dog but the real worry that as technology moves a pace it could well become obselete, leaving clubs with massive unsustanable debts. That would, were it to happen, cause a domino affect with lower league clubs who are owed transfer money also in fanger of collapse.

 

To see the ''money men'' and genuine football fans coming to together suggests that this problem is nearing tipping point. You may wish for some souless and bland circus that depends so much on hype - however I suggest the rest of us want a game where everyone has a chance and the winner is not the one with the most corrupt money launderer using them.

 

There is a famous City cartoon of a Norfolk Dumpling and a Citizen looking down on Wembley after the defeat in the ''59 cup semi final, saying " it should have been us, bor".

 

I don''t want what you want.

 

I don''t want those two, and the rest of football, looking up at the top table, saying "it''ll never be us, bor"

 

 

[/quote]This [Y]

[The gut 0]

[quote user="VegasCanary"][quote user="Infidel Castro"]Someone remind Rock The Boat which country the best two players in the world play in[/quote]

The two best players don''t make the best league. I don''t pay to see Rooney at Carrow Road, I pay to see Manchester United.

[/quote]I don''t pay to see Man Utd. I pay to watch Norwich.

[Bill 1,788]

"All the top players when coming here say they want to compete against the best"

 

or maybe, as you previously claimed - "They come because the big bucks are here"

 

"No one in the world is interested in other European leagues"

 

Probably not in the world you inhabit, however might I suggest you check where La Liga is broadcast worldwide

 

"FFP is the brainchild of Michel Platini and other Euroi cohorts who hate the English game"

 

And backed by that arch supporter of the ''nanny state'', Ambrovich

 

What I can only conclude is that beyond the hype you are pretty clueless about the game, both here and across the world.  Many clubs in the PL are teetering on the edge, propped up only by the largese of a number of dodgy money launderers, crooks and assorted shady characters. That is not sustainable, nor helps football in general.

 

Too many have a greater interest in the game than to sit by and see it destroy itself. They also want it to remain a sport, as near as possible. Contrived circuses are not sport, however much they are dressed up as such.

 

As to your point about "Have you already forgotten last season''s Man City v QPR final minute of the final game?" - yes, I was at Carrow Road that afternoon so I have no recollection of it, other than what was replayed long after the news had been heard on the radio.  Perhaps where you were watching this event, which might explain much about your rather deluded ideas.

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="City1st"]

"We have the best players and every top manager wants to play here and coach here"

 

absolute nonsense, if not why are they not all here ?

 

"thereby ending English domination of Euro club competitions"

 

in your rather mad delusions, maybe - not in the real world

 

"It creates an exciting league"

 

It doesn''t, It has created a stagnant league where the top five or six places are contested by the top clubs and the rest cling on in hope of the riches ... nothing else

 

"big clubs will continue to outbid us for talent as they have always done since league football began over a hundred years ago"

 

so how come clubs like us not only finished near the top, but actually won the title, over those previous years ?

 

What you are trying to defend is a glorified freak show that is beginning to fall apart. This is well recognised by most - and the above story is about how to deal with it BEFORE in caves in on itself.

 

Something that is so reliant upon one variable (TV coverage) is not in a very safe place. Not only for the now obvious fact of having the tail wagging the dog but the real worry that as technology moves a pace it could well become obselete, leaving clubs with massive unsustanable debts. That would, were it to happen, cause a domino affect with lower league clubs who are owed transfer money also in fanger of collapse.

 

To see the ''money men'' and genuine football fans coming to together suggests that this problem is nearing tipping point. You may wish for some souless and bland circus that depends so much on hype - however I suggest the rest of us want a game where everyone has a chance and the winner is not the one with the most corrupt money launderer using them.

 

There is a famous City cartoon of a Norfolk Dumpling and a Citizen looking down on Wembley after the defeat in the ''59 cup semi final, saying " it should have been us, bor".

 

I don''t want what you want.

 

I don''t want those two, and the rest of football, looking up at the top table, saying "it''ll never be us, bor"

 

 

[/quote]

 

I''d agree with pretty much all of that. The only supplementary point I would make is that there never was a golden level-playing-field age in which money didn''t matter. There have always been richer and poorer clubs. But that wealth tended to be organic, to reflect the economy of the area in which the club was based, and differences were not so marked that they could not be occasionally overcome. In addition economic changes (whole industries disappearing and new industries emerging) created a snakes and laders effect. A poor club didn''t necessarily stay poor for ever.

Two things have changed. Both financial rather than economic and therefore not organic. One is the TV money, which is essentially an exercise in giving more money to the rich. Exacerbating the disparity between the haves and the have-nots. The second is the trophy acquisition of clubs by almost incomprehensibly wealthy people. Indeed Man City has effectively been bought by an oil-rich country. It is not now that the playing field is not level, but that it has been split into two, with one tract fenced off with razor-wire.

[Rock The Boat 1,324]

Anyone want to suggest why Man U are behind this scheme?

Has Ferguson and co. suddenly become the guardians of the spirit of our fine game? Do you think for one minute that Man U care about the rest of the league clubs.

Surely not.

Man U see themselves faced with the prospect of Man City overhauling them at the country''s leading club, and with it the probability of global revenues draining away from the red to the blue half of Manchester. It''s all about whoever has the largest slice of the pie controls football. Man City are about to take up a place among the European elite and there''s not room for all the English clubs because we''ve got five or six teams that can compete at European Champions League level where other countries have one or two.

FFP is about tying English Clubs hands behind their backs because like most directives that come from Europe it will be the English that implements the scheme while the other European countries will ignore the regulations.

If wealthy Arabs wish to freely invest in English football in the same way that they have invested in English horse racing then that can only be a good thing for the country and no Euro-quango should be telling us how to run our own affairs.

FFP will drive wealthy investors away from football and when that happens, the world''s best footballers and coaches will leave our shores making Blatter and Platini two very happy men.

[Badger 2,405]

Much as I welcome Comrade Shyster''s late conversion to the cause and the inevitable victory of the revolutionary proletariat, my understanding is that all the FFP in Europe and the discussions that PL Chairs are having are essentially "self-regulation."

Without going as far as calling this an oxymoron, I think that we have seen the ineffectiveness of "self-regulation" of business over many years, most recently with the Press and the various banking codes. Therefore, like many others on here, I am not over confident that if it is enacted, it will be effective. Under current arrangements we have seen an apparent disparity with the way that some of the smaller clubs have been treated - for example over financial affairs and signing 3rd party owned players - although I do not profess to have the detailed knowledge that some on here have.

However, IF it were to come about, surely we would be relatively better off than some of our current, externally supported, opponents. I think our attendances are about 12th (?) for English clubs and we charge more than many?

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]Anyone want to suggest why Man U are behind this scheme? Has Ferguson and co. suddenly become the guardians of the spirit of our fine game? Do you think for one minute that Man U care about the rest of the league clubs. Surely not. Man U see themselves faced with the prospect of Man City overhauling them at the country''s leading club, and with it the probability of global revenues draining away from the red to the blue half of Manchester. It''s all about whoever has the largest slice of the pie controls football. Man City are about to take up a place among the European elite and there''s not room for all the English clubs because we''ve got five or six teams that can compete at European Champions League level where other countries have one or two. FFP is about tying English Clubs hands behind their backs because like most directives that come from Europe it will be the English that implements the scheme while the other European countries will ignore the regulations. If wealthy Arabs wish to freely invest in English football in the same way that they have invested in English horse racing then that can only be a good thing for the country and

no Euro-quango should be telling us how to run our own affairs.


FFP will drive wealthy investors away from football and when that happens, the world''s best footballers and coaches will leave our shores making Blatter and Platini two very happy men.[/quote]

 

For starters it isn''t a euro-quango. But the bigger point is that it isn''t telling us how to run our affairs. Platini is not telling the PL how to run itself. All he is doing is saying that if clubs want to take part in his competitions then they have to play by the rules that apply to clubs from all the other countries. If English clubs don''t like that they don''t have to enter European competitions.

[Bill 1,788]

"FFP will drive wealthy investors away from football and when that happens, the world''s best footballers and coaches will leave our shores making Blatter and Platini two very happy men".

 

you don''t appear too bright

 

where would these best footballers and coaches go - to the club that offered the best deal, perhaps ?

 

the club that is strong through it''s organisation and how it is run maybe  ? ie REAL competition - not a crooks plaything

 

I suspect that your ignorance has little to do with football, but a wish to find something to hang your bizarre political ideas upon

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user=" Badger"]Much as I welcome Comrade Shyster''s late conversion to the cause and the inevitable victory of the revolutionary proletariat, my understanding is that all the FFP in Europe and the discussions that PL Chairs are having are essentially "self-regulation." Without going as far as calling this an oxymoron, I think that we have seen the ineffectiveness of "self-regulation" of business over many years, most recently with the Press and the various banking codes. Therefore, like many others on here, I am not over confident that if it is enacted, it will be effective. Under current arrangements we have seen an apparent disparity with the way that some of the smaller clubs have been treated - for example over financial affairs and signing 3rd party owned players - although I do not profess to have the detailed knowledge that some on here have. However, IF it were to come about, surely we would be relatively better off than some of our current, externally supported, opponents. I think our attendances are about 12th (?) for English clubs and we charge more than many?[/quote]

 

I don''t think so, Badger. Who knows how it might turn out in England if the Pl adopted its own FFP, but in Europe there is what looks like a high-powered enforcement group headed by  former Belgian prime minister. I think Uefa is serious about this. It is not being left up to the clubs.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user=" Badger"]Much as I welcome Comrade Shyster''s late conversion to the cause and the inevitable victory of the revolutionary proletariat, my understanding is that all the FFP in Europe and the discussions that PL Chairs are having are essentially "self-regulation." Without going as far as calling this an oxymoron, I think that we have seen the ineffectiveness of "self-regulation" of business over many years, most recently with the Press and the various banking codes. Therefore, like many others on here, I am not over confident that if it is enacted, it will be effective. Under current arrangements we have seen an apparent disparity with the way that some of the smaller clubs have been treated - for example over financial affairs and signing 3rd party owned players - although I do not profess to have the detailed knowledge that some on here have. However, IF it were to come about, surely we would be relatively better off than some of our current, externally supported, opponents. I think our attendances are about 12th (?) for English clubs and we charge more than many?[/quote]

 

I don''t think so, Badger. Who knows how it might turn out in England if the Pl adopted its own FFP, but in Europe there is what looks like a high-powered enforcement group headed by  former Belgian prime minister. I think Uefa is serious about this. It is not being left up to the clubs.

[/quote]

 

I haven''t had time to read through the following, which is The Swiss Ramble''s take on FFP:


http://sn144w.snt144.mail.live.com/default.aspx#!/mail/InboxLight.aspx?n=254723187!n=363361795&fid=1&fav=1&mid=21ae4bd2-f7bf-11e1-9a8d-002264c19372&fv=1

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user=" Badger"]Much as I welcome Comrade Shyster''s late conversion to the cause and the inevitable victory of the revolutionary proletariat, my understanding is that all the FFP in Europe and the discussions that PL Chairs are having are essentially "self-regulation." Without going as far as calling this an oxymoron, I think that we have seen the ineffectiveness of "self-regulation" of business over many years, most recently with the Press and the various banking codes. Therefore, like many others on here, I am not over confident that if it is enacted, it will be effective. Under current arrangements we have seen an apparent disparity with the way that some of the smaller clubs have been treated - for example over financial affairs and signing 3rd party owned players - although I do not profess to have the detailed knowledge that some on here have. However, IF it were to come about, surely we would be relatively better off than some of our current, externally supported, opponents. I think our attendances are about 12th (?) for English clubs and we charge more than many?[/quote]

 

I don''t think so, Badger. Who knows how it might turn out in England if the Pl adopted its own FFP, but in Europe there is what looks like a high-powered enforcement group headed by  former Belgian prime minister. I think Uefa is serious about this. It is not being left up to the clubs.

[/quote]

 

I haven''t had time to read through the following, which is The Swiss Ramble''s take on FFP:


[/quote]

 

I''ll try that again;



http://swissramble.blogspot.fr/

[Badger 2,405]

Purple - my understanding was that it came from UEFA rather than the EU. If this is the case it is essentially self-regulation, by representatives of producers, including independents, similar to the PCC (as I understand it). This does not of course preclude the possibility that it could be effective but makes it far less likely.

I suspect that what is most likely is that it starts off OK but gets eroded as clubs start to bend and manipulate the the rules over time. Do you think that it will be effective and if so, do you think that a similar arrangement in England could be as well?

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user=" Badger"]Purple - my understanding was that it came from UEFA rather than the EU. If this is the case it is essentially self-regulation, by representatives of producers, including independents, similar to the PCC (as I understand it). This does not of course preclude the possibility that it could be effective but makes it far less likely. I suspect that what is most likely is that it starts off OK but gets eroded as clubs start to bend and manipulate the the rules over time. Do you think that it will be effective and if so, do you think that a similar arrangement in England could be as well?[/quote]

 

Badger, let us hope it is in no way similar to the not at all lamented and soon to be ex- PCC!!! You are right that it is Uefa and not the EU, but self-regulation to me means the clubs themselves. My understanding, and I need to read that Swiss Ramble piece when I get some time, is that the watchdog will be independent of the clubs. Certainly the chief watchdog, the former Belgian PM, doesn''t seem beholden to the clubs. I am sure Platini is serious about this and I do think the watchdog will have teeth. But the clubs'' lawyers will be looking for loopholes as we speak!

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]FFP won''t save English football it will send it back to the 70''s and 80''s.[/quote]

Which coincides roughly with our most successful period as a club?

And when there was a greater variety in the clubs finishing top 5; liverpool were always there - the rest revolved.

if there is a way to level the playing field and provide truly competitive leagues across europe and in each national league it should be explored. Currently there are no truly equal league - each countries top league has mini leagues within it becoming more like the old scots premier league so derided by everyone else. And that self impoded and became in horse race parlance a walk out this year.

[Indy 3,283]

Can I ask why some posters refer to the rich clubs getting richer??

 

Most clubs are finding that thanks to players and their agent''s stupid wage demands they are actually getting poorer!

 

I think if you look at nearly every league through Europe you will have the same top 3 teams year in year out, with the exception of one or two seasons or super rich new owners spending millions to lift their clubs up there.

 

In all reality it''s down to the clubs themselves to self govern, like Norwich over the past few seasons.

 

Any change must be a good thing for football, it can''t continue as it has been and who ever has new ideas there will always be those who think different.

 

[Yellow Wal 314]

Indy - it was a long time ago in this thread but nevertheless I would like to say that I fully agree with your suggestions below - the others I''m not so sure about!

It has to be related to the division and not to the clubs turnover.

We have the 25 player registered, I would like to go one step further and senior players who don''t get registered are free to go to another club.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

FFP rules will hamper the majority of European clubs over those in the Premier League.

 

Those lucky enough to be in the Premier League have the largest TV deal in the world (aside from Barcelona and Read Madrid who negotiated their TV deals individually) and are the richest clubs in the world - regardless of rich investors. They are also some of the worst run clubs in the world, losing money all over the place in ridiculous transfer fees, agents payments and salaries. Someone trying to slap a little sense into them will do the world of good - the fact the PL gains more in TV money than the Budesliga and La Liga combined and still charges on average twice as much for tickets is a little sick. Get these clubs run well and English teams can still be a large force in Europe and we could all go and see football for much less.

[Bill 1,788]

" the fact the PL gains more in TV money than the Budesliga and La Liga combined and still charges on average twice as much for tickets is a little sick."

 

a very good point

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

FFP rules will hamper the majority of European clubs over those in the Premier League.

 

Those lucky enough to be in the Premier League have the largest TV deal in the world (aside from Barcelona and Read Madrid who negotiated their TV deals individually) and are the richest clubs in the world - regardless of rich investors. They are also some of the worst run clubs in the world, losing money all over the place in ridiculous transfer fees, agents payments and salaries. Someone trying to slap a little sense into them will do the world of good - the fact the PL gains more in TV money than the Budesliga and La Liga combined and still charges on average twice as much for tickets is a little sick. Get these clubs run well and English teams can still be a large force in Europe and we could all go and see football for much less.

[/quote]

 

And this is because however much money comes into these clubs the players take it out on wages. Despite all the millions of tv money that comes our way fans are gagging to pay £50 to get a ticket regardless of the fact their money is going into greedy player''s pockets. I''m not criticising fans, I pay too. And if we had a 35,000 stadium ticket prices would be increased so that players could be paid more. And fans would still pay it. Until this ridiculous cycle is broken nothing will change.

 

I reckon the only way to get the football back to the people will be if this SKY gravy train moves to another country. The greedy players will move with it in a flash. And the game will again belong top the fans because they will proivide the club''s income. But how many fans will hang around?

 

 

[Bill 1,788]

"But how many fans will hang around?"

 

It will be back to just the supporters again

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="City1st"]

"But how many fans will hang around?"

 

It will be back to just the supporters again

 

 

[/quote]

Suits me[Y][:D]

[ricardo 7,341]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

FFP rules will hamper the majority of European clubs over those in the Premier League.

 

Those lucky enough to be in the Premier League have the largest TV deal in the world (aside from Barcelona and Read Madrid who negotiated their TV deals individually) and are the richest clubs in the world - regardless of rich investors. They are also some of the worst run clubs in the world, losing money all over the place in ridiculous transfer fees, agents payments and salaries. Someone trying to slap a little sense into them will do the world of good - the fact the PL gains more in TV money than the Budesliga and La Liga combined and still charges on average twice as much for tickets is a little sick. Get these clubs run well and English teams can still be a large force in Europe and we could all go and see football for much less.

[/quote]

 

And this is because however much money comes into these clubs the players take it out on wages. Despite all the millions of tv money that comes our way fans are gagging to pay £50 to get a ticket regardless of the fact their money is going into greedy player''s pockets. I''m not criticising fans, I pay too. And if we had a 35,000 stadium ticket prices would be increased so that players could be paid more. And fans would still pay it. Until this ridiculous cycle is broken nothing will change.

 

I reckon the only way to get the football back to the people will be if this SKY gravy train moves to another country. The greedy players will move with it in a flash. And the game will again belong top the fans because they will proivide the club''s income. But how many fans will hang around?

 

 

[/quote]If stadiums are full then the pricing scale must be correct. It''s simple economics Nigel, they are charging you what you are willing to pay otherwise you would refuse to go[;)]. At what point would you say "enough''s enough"? £70, £100?We would all like things to be cheaper but if we are willing to pay the asking price it seems pointless to complain. The harsh reality is you have a choice to pay or not to pay. I wouldn''t mind a nice new BMW but as the old saying goes, "beggars can''t be choosers".

[nutty nigel 7,509]

I agree Rickyyyyyyy. Which is my point that I probably made poorly as usual. We only have ourseleves to blame. People willingly pay their money to SKY and for tickets even though it''s just going into players pockets. Everyttime there''s a new tv deal the wages go up. Everytime there''s an increase in ticket prices the wages go up. It''s simple economics and in the end there has to be a breaking point. But we''re not at that point yet. there''s still ways to get more money into the players pockets. We can go and play premier league games in Asia for vast sums of money and then charge our fans to watch it beamed back. Until all such options are exhausted we''re stuck with it simply because of simple economics.

 

 

 

 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

FFP rules will hamper the majority of European clubs over those in the Premier League.

 

Those lucky enough to be in the Premier League have the largest TV deal in the world (aside from Barcelona and Read Madrid who negotiated their TV deals individually) and are the richest clubs in the world - regardless of rich investors. They are also some of the worst run clubs in the world, losing money all over the place in ridiculous transfer fees, agents payments and salaries. Someone trying to slap a little sense into them will do the world of good - the fact the PL gains more in TV money than the Budesliga and La Liga combined and still charges on average twice as much for tickets is a little sick. Get these clubs run well and English teams can still be a large force in Europe and we could all go and see football for much less.

[/quote]

And this is because however much money comes into these clubs the players take it out on wages.

[/quote]

That''s why I feel a wage cap is becoming vital - I use to be against it as I felt clubs should be left up to their own devices, naively thinking the well run would prosper whilst the useless would crumble, but if money is almost unlimited it''s pretty much impossible to fail i.e. Man City who have made so many poor choices still winning the league.

 

With PSG''s new owners and Gazprom now choosing to pump money into Zenit St Petersburg the league of ''too big to fail'' is growing year on year.

[Monty13 2,229]

Whatever gets implemented can''t come soon enough imo and whatever that happens to be I can''t see any way in which we wont be better off for it.

I do find it ironic though that it appears like it has taken the insanely rich actions of Man City to provoke the other only rich clubs into action.

[Bill 1,788]

No, I think there has been rumblings for quite a while now.

 

Provoked I think by the realisation that Pompey and Rangers are not the exceptions, but are the reality and if something is not done soon the whole lot will collapse.

 

The cause being not so much the money being laundered through clubs like Man City but the dangerous actions by other clubs who seek '' to keep up '', thereby putting themselves into hideous and unsustainable debt.

 

Most bubbles eventually burst, they do not level off.

 

 

[YankeeCanary 0]

Just a follow-up question........when reading this article early last week I think they referred to meetings that were going to take place last Thursday. Has anyone seen anything further reported in the press since then?

[beelsie 0]

Hi,YC, a very good post for the forum to get their teeth into. The whole message if taken to the limit is to be welcomed by all business minded people, as far back as 93 we were saying that clubs should be run in a business like manner. Perhaps the financial situation that we as a country now face has helped the money wasters come to their senses. Norwich city with it''s currant ground capacity is not a huge money spinner and the gate sizes are not adequate, but sensible management has prevailed and the club is fairly stable. It would be nice to see our ground able to take 40,000. If the prospects of that happening become reality and we remain in the top league, we should be a very good top half outfit, and with a great deal of luck and a favourable wind it will be a loud "on the ball city" for the future. Beelsie!!

[YankeeCanary 0]

 

Beelsie, never mind about the details of this thread.....I''ll leave it to others to advise if there has been any progress reported in the British media. I am simply responding here to acknowledge my pleasure at your presence and see you still alive and kicking. Please don''t be a total stranger.