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Hillsborough Report - Norwich Memories

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[quote user="ricky knight"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="ricky knight"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]just heard graham beecrofts commentary of the day again on talksport he called it spot on, he said it was not a hooligan thing, something is seriously wrong, nobody is fighting anybody, Liverpool fans are laying on the pitch, sounds right to me.[/quote]

He was reporting from inside the stadium and nobody has said there was any hooliganism inside the stadium as far as I''m aware. The pushing on the gates was outside the stadium and this was the catalyst for a naive senior officer to decide to open the gates for health and safety reasons.  

[/quote] you miss my point paul the police said there was fighting on the pitch and advised ambulance men to stay out the ground this was said by only ambulance man who took no notice and the first one on the scene[/quote]

Well, that sounds like poor communication to me, which perhaps is understandable in all the ensuing chaos. That poor ambulanceman though who ignored the advice of a policeman is now being blamed alongside his other colleagues of responsibility for ''killing'' Liverpool supporters. That has to be wrong, surely. It was a tragic accident, not murder or manslaughter that the Liverpool fans and their families are apparently clamouring for.

[/quote] give up mate lost all respect for you so cant be bothered.[/quote]

... and I''ve lost all respect for the independence of the panel.  A clear conflict of interest which must make objective people wary of this report !!!!

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[quote user=" Badger"]Ricardo - just on a point of accuracy: you said,

"Football hooliganism started in earnest in the early 70''s and smiling Big Jim and Labour were in power then and did bugger all about it."

Edward Heath and the Conservative Party were in power in the early 1970s. Jim Callaghan did not become PM until 1976, although the Labour party regained office (if not power) in the two elections of 1974.

Obviously I agree passionately with your final point, as I am sure that we all do.[/quote]

Thanks Badger, yes of course it was Wilson then Callaghan from 1974 to 79. My point being that attempts to politicise this get us nowhere although some will always feel better if they can blame a "hate figure" for all societies ills.

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[quote user=" Badger"]Ricardo - just on a point of accuracy: you said,

"Football hooliganism started in earnest in the early 70''s and smiling Big Jim and Labour were in power then and did bugger all about it."

Edward Heath and the Conservative Party were in power in the early 1970s. Jim Callaghan did not become PM until 1976, although the Labour party regained office (if not power) in the two elections of 1974.

Obviously I agree passionately with your final point, as I am sure that we all do.[/quote]

Thanks Badger, yes of course it was Wilson then Callaghan from 1974 to 79. My point being that attempts to politicise this get us nowhere although some will always feel better if they can blame a "hate figure" for all societies ills.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s not left v right Rickyyyy. It''s not party political. And nutty''s point has been quite clear from my first post that the blame lies with many different people including nutty and Rickyyyyyy. But the treating of all football fans as scum can be traced directly to Thatcher and her comments after past events. She cannot be directly blamed for that day''s mistakes but she is responsible for the prevailing attitudes towards football fans at that time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

Get over it. Perhaps she didn''t think you''d get so upset by her calling you names, Nutty.

Seriously though Nutty, most non football people were happy to tar all football fans with the same brush in those days. In a way its hard to blame them when you remember some of the pre and post match entertainment that went on in city centres on Saturdays. After the Heysal disaster it became impossible to argue that it was just isolated incidents with small numbers involved. I didn''t much like being herded along by Police horses and dogs when we went to the 6th round  FA cup match at Brighton in 1983 but I can understand that the local people expected the Police to put their safety before our comfort.

Politicians of both sides simply reacted to public''s appeals for something to be done so nothing new there. You can argue that their reaction was slow and could have taken different paths but you can''t argue that most people wanted something done quickly and that in the public''s view anything was better than nothing.
[/quote]

 

So were you ever arrested Rickyyy? Do you think a big enough percentage of football fans were hooligans to make Thatcher''s actions acceptable? I was at that cup match a Brighton. Was also at Derby the following season where the police treatment was worse. We went to Derby on a private bus organised by the social club but ended up getting nothing to eat or drink and being treated like criminals. And that became accepted which is why you and I have to shoulder some responsibility. I hope my children and grandchildren don''t ever accept being treated like that.

 

Paul Moy believes we deserved it. What are your experiences Paul Moy? Did you enjoy being caged and herded like an animal? I''m interested because you don''t seem to have any personal experiences to tell us. And Paul, do you think all Muslims are bombers or all Germans were nazis?

 

There''s loads of us on this thread who were at Villa Park, Upton Park, Goldstone and Baseball Ground. Nothing to fear now so how many of you were ever arrested for football violence?

 

Mungo - you are just a wind up but I think a thread discussing 96 deaths is the wrong place to do it. You know what Norman Tebbit would have told you to do don''t you?

 

 

 

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It will probably be at odds with many views on here but I feel quite sad about society''s constant need to punish and apportion blame on individuals for disasters such as this.

I work on the aviation side of the military and we run an almost no blame culture to enable us to both learn from experience and to hopefully stop accidents/disasters from happening, by all involved being honest and able to hold there hands up without fear of persecution.

I have also done a lot of Human Factors training and it is nearly always the case that with any accident/disaster while one event may be the tipping point that causes it, nearly always there has to be a continuous chain of failures for events to unfold at there worst. If that chain is broken your disaster will not happen on many occasions where it might, however if there is that perfect storm where all events line up, disaster is almost inevitable.

Reading the report from Hillsborough is almost to me like reading any accident investigation that I have read on aviation. There is an almost constant series of failures over a number of years from Government Policy and the FA down to SWFC and SYP, that lead to that moment of disaster. To blame an individual for his one action that tipped the balance seems grossly unfair to me, especially when we will never no what would have happened outside the ground had he done nothing.

While the actions of SYP post the disaster to lay the blame squarely with LFC supporters is reprehensible and appears will probably (and rightly in my opinion) lead to prosecution, this does not really affect the event itself.

I cannot blame the families of those who died and those individuals scarred mentally and physically from the events from wanting to seek their own personal justice, and they have my complete sympathy. However, what little comfort it may give them, this disaster has forever changed policy within football of policing, safety and attitude and has potentially stopped further loss of life from similar situations occurring.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s not left v right Rickyyyy. It''s not party political. And nutty''s point has been quite clear from my first post that the blame lies with many different people including nutty and Rickyyyyyy. But the treating of all football fans as scum can be traced directly to Thatcher and her comments after past events. She cannot be directly blamed for that day''s mistakes but she is responsible for the prevailing attitudes towards football fans at that time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

Get over it. Perhaps she didn''t think you''d get so upset by her calling you names, Nutty.

Seriously though Nutty, most non football people were happy to tar all football fans with the same brush in those days. In a way its hard to blame them when you remember some of the pre and post match entertainment that went on in city centres on Saturdays. After the Heysal disaster it became impossible to argue that it was just isolated incidents with small numbers involved. I didn''t much like being herded along by Police horses and dogs when we went to the 6th round  FA cup match at Brighton in 1983 but I can understand that the local people expected the Police to put their safety before our comfort.

Politicians of both sides simply reacted to public''s appeals for something to be done so nothing new there. You can argue that their reaction was slow and could have taken different paths but you can''t argue that most people wanted something done quickly and that in the public''s view anything was better than nothing.
[/quote]

 

So were you ever arrested Rickyyy? Do you think a big enough percentage of football fans were hooligans to make Thatcher''s actions acceptable? I was at that cup match a Brighton. Was also at Derby the following season where the police treatment was worse. We went to Derby on a private bus organised by the social club but ended up getting nothing to eat or drink and being treated like criminals. And that became accepted which is why you and I have to shoulder some responsibility. I hope my children and grandchildren don''t ever accept being treated like that.

 

Paul Moy believes we deserved it. What are your experiences Paul Moy? Did you enjoy being caged and herded like an animal? I''m interested because you don''t seem to have any personal experiences to tell us. And Paul, do you think all Muslims are bombers or all Germans were nazis?

 

There''s loads of us on this thread who were at Villa Park, Upton Park, Goldstone and Baseball Ground. Nothing to fear now so how many of you were ever arrested for football violence?

 

Mungo - you are just a wind up but I think a thread discussing 96 deaths is the wrong place to do it. You know what Norman Tebbit would have told you to do don''t you?

[/quote]

You have a definite persecution complex, Nutty.

We have to accept that to live in a civilised society there needs to be laws and restrictions. It wasn''t a case of thinking that I deserved to be restricted, just that it was necessary at the time. I wasn''t happy with it and I must admit that peering through wire mesh to watch a match did detract from my enjoyment. It probably even deterred me from going to matches. The inadvertant result has been all-seater stadia after the sad loss of so many lives.

I got locked up for hours by Dutch police for being in a group of people that were playing cards for money on a train, consequently missing my ferry. Sh*t happens !! Do I blame the Dutch PM ? Nope.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s not left v right Rickyyyy. It''s not party political. And nutty''s point has been quite clear from my first post that the blame lies with many different people including nutty and Rickyyyyyy. But the treating of all football fans as scum can be traced directly to Thatcher and her comments after past events. She cannot be directly blamed for that day''s mistakes but she is responsible for the prevailing attitudes towards football fans at that time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]Get over it. Perhaps she didn''t think you''d get so upset by her calling you names, Nutty.Seriously though Nutty, most non football people were happy to tar all football fans with the same brush in those days. In a way its hard to blame them when you remember some of the pre and post match entertainment that went on in city centres on Saturdays. After the Heysal disaster it became impossible to argue that it was just isolated incidents with small numbers involved. I didn''t much like being herded along by Police horses and dogs when we went to the 6th round  FA cup match at Brighton in 1983 but I can understand that the local people expected the Police to put their safety before our comfort.Politicians of both sides simply reacted to public''s appeals for something to be done so nothing new there. You can argue that their reaction was slow and could have taken different paths but you can''t argue that most people wanted something done quickly and that in the public''s view anything was better than nothing.[/quote]

 

So were you ever arrested Rickyyy? Do you think a big enough percentage of football fans were hooligans to make Thatcher''s actions acceptable? I was at that cup match a Brighton. Was also at Derby the following season where the police treatment was worse. We went to Derby on a private bus organised by the social club but ended up getting nothing to eat or drink and being treated like criminals. And that became accepted which is why you and I have to shoulder some responsibility. I hope my children and grandchildren don''t ever accept being treated like that.

 

Paul Moy believes we deserved it. What are your experiences Paul Moy? Did you enjoy being caged and herded like an animal? I''m interested because you don''t seem to have any personal experiences to tell us. And Paul, do you think all Muslims are bombers or all Germans were nazis?

 

There''s loads of us on this thread who were at Villa Park, Upton Park, Goldstone and Baseball Ground. Nothing to fear now so how many of you were ever arrested for football violence?

 

Mungo - you are just a wind up but I think a thread discussing 96 deaths is the wrong place to do it. You know what Norman Tebbit would have told you to do don''t you?

 

 

 

[/quote]No Nigel, I was never arrested but I knew some who were. I had mates who got into lots of bother but thankfully because I introduced my son Neil to the delights of football at an early age I was always a bit wary and steered clear when things got dodgey. I started to cut out away trips for the very reason of experiencing similar things to your Derby trip. If you ever listen to Patrick Fitzgeralds song "No Fun Football Anymore" you''ll know what I mean.Lets hope those days never return.

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I was at the Brighton game in 83 and the Derby game the following year. I remember being herded like animals into a pen.

At Derby the pen was packed so tight, you could hardly raise your arms to protect your head, from rocks and concrete being thrown by the Derby fans.

Thank God those days are behind us but those days were the norm back then and that has to be taken into account.

At Hillsborough, the police initially believed they were facing a pitch invasion, given the climate back then, would anyone have thought differently? - until things sadly became apparent?

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[quote user="ricardo"]

 


No Nigel, I was never arrested but I knew some who were. I had mates who got into lots of bother but thankfully because I introduced my son Neil to the delights of football at an early age I was always a bit wary and steered clear when things got dodgey. I started to cut out away trips for the very reason of experiencing similar things to your Derby trip. If you ever listen to Patrick Fitzgeralds song "No Fun Football Anymore" you''ll know what I mean.

Lets hope those days never return.
[/quote]

 

Ha! I knew for all that posh public school persona that you were actually a little scrote!

 

Of course you weren''t arrested. And not because you had responsibilties when you were younger. You, like me, were old enough to face up to those responsibilities. Others weren''t. Others probably still aren''t. But that''s no reason for us to be tarred by their brush. Good people earn their liberty. If we are to be treated like a criminal then where''s the point?

 

Now the reason I blame Thatcher isn''t political. It''s personal. To take the arguement into some kind of left v right debate is the choice of others. Thatcher reacted to events that lead to Hillsborough personally. She announced what was to happen and then expected everyone to go along with it. She was a strong leader and the weak followed. Often against their better judgement.

 

It happens Rickyyy. We''d like to think it doesn''t but it does. Think back to our own club and Robert Chase. Now after he went and the club survived there was an interview with Barry Lockwood. Barry is an unheralded figure from our past but he steered the club through a difficult time. He served under Chase and then was Chairman as the club made it''s recovery. He said "All directors and the vice-chairman received monthly management accounts including the bank position and the cash book position. So we were all aware what the position was." Pause as bamboozled interviewer scratches head. For a man purportedly under fire, the 58-year-old King''s Lynn-based businessman appears curiously disinclined to bolt for the one, perilous escape hatch still just about ajar to anyone associated with the remarkable deterioration in Norwich City''s financial fortunes.

"Blame Robert Chase?" Lockwood pauses briefly, with eyebrow half-raised and the faintest trace of a sardonic smile. "That''s the easy answer," he continues. "I''d be failing in my responsibility if I said that."

So there you have a strong leader who nobody stood up to when he got it wrong. It doesn''t mean he got nothing right though? Just like Thatcher got things right. But football hooliganism she got very wrong. And because of that 96 people died at Hillsborough. So yes she should apologise and not just leave it to those who were too weak to stand up to her which includes you and me Rickyyyy.

 

And Paul Moy. I lose more respect for you with each post you make. What is your experience of those days. Not peering through mesh and playing cards in Holland. If you are just talking hot air then have the good grace to say so.

 

Billabong, your last post is the truth. It''s what I''ve been trying to say all along. But you ask yourself why that was the prevailing attitude? It certainly wasn''t because the majority of football fans behaved that way.

 

 

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One point. I have read coverage of this in about a dozen newspapers worldwide, across the political spectrum, and no-one but no-one is questioning the impartiality of the members of panel (some with Liverpool connections) or casting doubt on their report. And this shouldn''t be a surprise. Some of the detail (particularly the jaw-dropping extent of the cover-up) is new. But the conclusions on the cause of the tragedy pretty much repeat previous findings from Taylor and others.

Apropos Thatcher, without getting into that, I was reminded today of the following exchange between her and Ted Croker, a former RAF wartime pilot (so probably not a Trotskyist) who was head of the FA in the 1980s:

Thatcher: "What are you going to do about your hooligans?"

Croker: "These people are society''s problems and we don''t want your hooligans in our sport, prime minister."

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ricardo"]

 

No Nigel, I was never arrested but I knew some who were. I had mates who got into lots of bother but thankfully because I introduced my son Neil to the delights of football at an early age I was always a bit wary and steered clear when things got dodgey. I started to cut out away trips for the very reason of experiencing similar things to your Derby trip. If you ever listen to Patrick Fitzgeralds song "No Fun Football Anymore" you''ll know what I mean.Lets hope those days never return.[/quote]

 

Ha! I knew for all that posh public school persona that you were actually a little scrote!

 

Of course you weren''t arrested. And not because you had responsibilties when you were younger. You, like me, were old enough to face up to those responsibilities. Others weren''t. Others probably still aren''t. But that''s no reason for us to be tarred by their brush. Good people earn their liberty. If we are to be treated like a criminal then where''s the point?

 

Now the reason I blame Thatcher isn''t political. It''s personal. To take the arguement into some kind of left v right debate is the choice of others. Thatcher reacted to events that lead to Hillsborough personally. She announced what was to happen and then expected everyone to go along with it. She was a strong leader and the weak followed. Often against their better judgement.

 

It happens Rickyyy. We''d like to think it doesn''t but it does. Think back to our own club and Robert Chase. Now after he went and the club survived there was an interview with Barry Lockwood. Barry is an unheralded figure from our past but he steered the club through a difficult time. He served under Chase and then was Chairman as the club made it''s recovery. He said "All directors and the vice-chairman received monthly management accounts including the bank position and the cash book position. So we were all aware what the position was." Pause as bamboozled interviewer scratches head. For a man purportedly under fire, the 58-year-old King''s Lynn-based businessman appears curiously disinclined to bolt for the one, perilous escape hatch still just about ajar to anyone associated with the remarkable deterioration in Norwich City''s financial fortunes.

"Blame Robert Chase?" Lockwood pauses briefly, with eyebrow half-raised and the faintest trace of a sardonic smile. "That''s the easy answer," he continues. "I''d be failing in my responsibility if I said that."

So there you have a strong leader who nobody stood up to when he got it wrong. It doesn''t mean he got nothing right though? Just like Thatcher got things right. But football hooliganism she got very wrong. And because of that 96 people died at Hillsborough. So yes she should apologise and not just leave it to those who were too weak to stand up to her which includes you and me Rickyyyy.

 

And Paul Moy. I lose more respect for you with each post you make. What is your experience of those days. Not peering through mesh and playing cards in Holland. If you are just talking hot air then have the good grace to say so.

 

Billabong, your last post is the truth. It''s what I''ve been trying to say all along. But you ask yourself why that was the prevailing attitude? It certainly wasn''t because the majority of football fans behaved that way.

 

 

[/quote]Thanks for that Nigel we don''t always see eye to eye but may I say it''s always a pleasure to debate with you. I don''t know where you ever got that public school idea from mate but you are pretty wide of the mark there. It was Alderman Jex then Norwich Junior Tech then the Hewett School for me I''m afraid.You are right of course about the weak following the strong but that''s only to be expected, human nature being what it is. My point however is that a lot of the things we had to suffer in those days were because people in power put in place what they thought were perfectly reasonable laws regarding the appalling behaviour by a certain section of football fans. I am going to insert a quotation here (you know my penchant for a good quotation but this one is not Shakespeare) It goes like this "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity". That''s why I don''t agree with your malevolent Thatcher thesis. Nobody in Government knew anything about football and the conditions in those antiquated stadiums. They wanted to stop the violence and mayhem inside grounds and wanted to address the general public''s fears about their city centres being regularly trashed on a Saturday.You say we faced up to our responsibilities but I often think back to some of the stuff I saw but never raised  a complaint or lifted a finger to prevent. An old guy shoved to ground in Riverside Road, some poor bastards bike chucked in the river and lots of occasions where innocent people were whacked as hooligans ran amok. Yes we steered clear of trouble with our kids and tried to keep our noses clean but perhaps the silent majority (us) should have done a bit more than that.I will end now with another quotation that seems to put my thoughts in a nutshell. "All that is required for evil to flourish is that good men do nothing".Good night all.

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Another great post Rickyyyyyy. And I can honestly say that discussing football with you outweighs all the negative things people have to say about this board.

 

The bad stuff we all witnessed back then tarnishes the happy memories we keep about the football. But by highlighting them in the way we do propagates the myth that all football fans were hooligans. In fact the hooligans were the minority and a vary small minority. We all tell the tales about how we went away and feared for our lives. But much of the fear was through the way we were herded around like animals and treated like scum.

 

It didn''t happen at home games because we didn''t have to be herded. Unless we chose to be amongst it we could pretty much avoid it. Of course there was always a chance that we would get caught up in something outside the ground but we weren''t treated like criminals and we had our liberty. But that''s not just home games at Norwich. The same would apply to home games for Liverpool, Manchester United or Chelsea. Their fans had liberty for home games but were also treated like scum away from home.

 

I mention Chelsea because there''s another memory from those times. A memory that Duncan likes to remind me about every little while! I took him to Chelsea for the first game of the season in 1986 when he was 7 years old. But I didn''t go on any official travel and brought tickets in the stands. I didn''t wear colours either. But then hardly anyone did in those days. We trained to Liverpool Street, underground to Fulham Broadway and then went and collected the tickets. With a couple of hours to spare I went and found a pub. Sitting outside were all Chelsea fans in colours. At one table a couple of guys my age and their boys. I had a quick chat and guaged them to be ok so they looked after Duncan while I went in and bought the drinks. We then sat with them for a while. They were just football fans like the majority of people in Stamford Bridge that day. Of course Duncan likes to tell it that I just handed him over to the Chelsea headhunters while I went for a drink!

 

Your last quotation sums it up for me. We have to share some of the blame for the way it panned out. That''s where I came into the thread and where I''ll leave it.

 

Sweet dreams Rickyyyyyyyyyyyyyy[S]

 

 

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Hopefully we can let this lie now, at the end of the day 96 people died, and I''m sure not one Liverpool fan went to Hillsborough that day intending to be involved in the death of 96 of their own fans.I have never experienced terracing at a football match, although I have at Welford Road in Leicester (an entirely different crowd and atmosphere of course), and the stories that people have relayed on this thread make me glad that I haven''t at football.  Although clearly it would probably stand the test with today''s health and safety laws and the proportionate and considered reactions of the modern Police force and other emergency services, alongside the club.Whatever the HIP has revealed, and some of it is truly shocking, the events of that day could have been repeated in any ground around the country.  From what I have read many terraces were frightening places when people look back on what they experienced.  There probably were ticketless Liverpool fans, as there were probably ticketless Forest fans, ticketless Norwich fans and ticketless Everton fans, it would be impossible for anyone to find out whether this is true or not - once that gate was opened it was clearly a free for all.  It''s quite blatantly not the fans fault that they were ineffectively managed by the police in and around Hillsborough that day.  I can''t see how anyone can argue against this when you look back.  The only thing that could have worked was perhaps the police being more heavy handed before the fans reached the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane End to ensure that people were forced towards the correct turnstiles, but then we may be discussing a completely different scenario of events outside the ground if that had happened.  With fans looking back on ''that day when the police really abused us at Hillsborough'' - but surely that''s better than the loss of 96 lives?The events of the day are tragic, but it''s the events post the disaster that are the most shocking - and even if people are happy to believe it was the Liverpool fans fault (everyone is entitled to an opinion however well or misinformed) they must also be happy to accept that there was an attempt to cover up the actions of some of the South Yorks Police.History is only useful if people are prepared to look back at it and be objective.  Clearly hooliganism was a major problem in the 1970s and 1980s which led to a chain of events culminating in Hillsborough and the Taylor Report.  Yes you can blame Thatcher, although don''t forget any policies would have had to also been agreed by the Cabinet, but she wasn''t in power when hooliganism began.  Throughout society the actions of the few cause the masses to be treated with contempt, and this is what happened with football.  However much you want to lay the blame at the door of one person, it is the actions of those few and the mob mentality that was to blame for hooliganism.  Yes societal causes are also to blame, but it is the person who decides to kick off, who decides to beat up a rival fan, who decides to abuse the police, who scares the general public, that is the only one who can take responsibility for their actions.Unfortunately once the norms spread hooliganism became part of certain people''s football life, and it is impossible to stop that train once it has left the station.  No one can take the blame, it''s the way society is, fortunately the Taylor Report prevented those ''fans'' from attending anymore + other reasons including the mass media.Ultimately it''s a chain of events that starts with the football fans, who were let down by society.  No one can take blame for what happened on that day apart from the people who tried to cover it up afterwards, fans were acting the way they normally did, as were the police (in most cases), a chain of events on that day, starting with a car accident ending with a ground without a safety certificate caused 96 people to die.

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I cant believe some people on here, So all the people on bloody Sunday who got shot there families should not be compensated because they were killed in a time of political unrest, thats the same theory and another major cover up this country should be ashamed of. Its ridiculous, 96 people died because the police and others got it wrong, i dont care if there fellow fans were drunk, stoned or tripping out their heads, mistakes were made and covered up and someone should pay, bottom line.

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[quote user="Karl Pilkington"]

http://bluelagosontour.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/23-years-ago.html

Not sure if this has already been posted, but this is a blog by an Ipswich fan who was there on the day.

It does bring home how awful it must have been and how much things have changed for football fans since the 1980''s.

 

[/quote]

Just scanned through it Karl - Wow, that must be the most emotional account of Hillsborough  I''ve ever heard. Frightening, terrifying, words can''t describe it. When I arrived home from Villa Park and the death toll was up to about 90 I remember sitting down on the settee with head in hands and wept. I feel the bloody same writing this at work 23 years on so what those who were as involved as that guy must have felt down the years just can''t be imagined. 

I''ll print the thing off and keep it. Why? To make sure I never, ever forget that day. Even though I wasn''t there I have always said that Hillsborough was the worst day of my life. 23 years on that remains the case.       

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All I remember about our game really is a man in a pink panther costume who was very entertaining and that''s about it.

I was living in Sheffield at the time so we got the full impact of the news when we arrived at sheffield station.

I was on a student placement at the Sheffield city council so remember the Liverpool and Forest teams coming in to sign a book of condolences, they must have visited Leppings lane to pay their respects. Grim times indeed.

Punting Canary wrote about Upton park and the FA cup game and I will never forget that day for the crushing. I had been in many jam-packed terraces before but that day was something else. In particular there was a crush in a narrow corridor outside the toilets at half time. I remember the shouting for help and I could hardly breath myself being squashed from the front and the back and not going anywhere for ages.

I am glad that the families of the victims will finally get some measure of justice but just unbelievable that it''s taken so ******** long.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]It wasn''t actually Thatcher who banned us it was the FA.Her legacy of legislation for clamping down on hooliganism probably did more for our home attendances and season ticket sales decades later than Cullen and co ever did as football stadiums slowly became safe family environments. 

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For me thr real thing is the lies from the cheif of police on that day, he ordered thr gate to be opened, afterwards he stated the fans had forced it!

 

He''s the one who decided against the normal practice at Hillsborough of stuarding the crowds into each pen so this didn''t happen, why did they break from the normal procedure on that day?

 

And why did they not just put the game back 30 minutes knowing the number of fans still trying to get in?

 

It was a total farce on their behalf and the gutter press afeterwards sticks in my mind too! the sun run some real poor stuf post Hillsborough!

 

I am so glad terracing went out of the game at top level and football changed for the better after that day! sad it tool something tragic to change it though!

 

Anyone who says terracing is better does not remember being crushed against the barriers, p!ss running down, drink, cup full of unrine being thrown from the back of the crowds!

 

Sorry but I don''t have any love for terracing!

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[quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]It wasn''t actually Thatcher who banned us it was the FA.Her legacy of legislation for clamping down on hooliganism probably did more for our home attendances and season ticket sales decades later than Cullen and co ever did as football stadiums slowly became safe family environments. [/quote]We should be thankful for hooliganism really, if it didn''t exist we may not be where we are today.Purple''s tiptop post on, ''A brief history of footballing times'', subtitled ''from the big bang of the industrial revolution''.(I even imagined Purple sitting in a rocking chair reading it with a synthesized American voice).I all seriousness it was a good read and it was clear in my opinion. That through the fallout of football hooliganism, it gave us and so called smaller clubs at the time. An open opportunity to take advantage and progress the way City and others did.

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[quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]

It wasn''t actually Thatcher who banned us it was the FA.

Her legacy of legislation for clamping down on hooliganism probably did more for our home attendances and season ticket sales decades later than Cullen and co ever did as football stadiums slowly became safe family environments.
 

[/quote]

 

It was Thatcher who told the FA to ban us Zak. They were given no choice. Thatcher waged war on football fans rather than football hooligans. As I said earlier this is not a political debate, left v right, it''s personal. It may be a right wing view that pick-pockets should have their hand chopped off. But a Thatcherite view would be that if there were pickp-pockets amongst football fans then all the fans should have their hand chopped off. She treated all fans as hooligans.

 

Thatcher''s government also didn''t recognise many of the problems that led to the disaster at Hillsborough. The Bradford fire had shown how unsafe our old stadiums were. It''s unbelievable that 4 years after that a semi-final could be held in a stadium without a safety certificate. In fact I would go as far as to say that Thatchers government and the FA actually made stadiums less safe than they already were with the ridiculous fences that were to become death traps.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]It wasn''t actually Thatcher who banned us it was the FA.Her legacy of legislation for clamping down on hooliganism probably did more for our home attendances and season ticket sales decades later than Cullen and co ever did as football stadiums slowly became safe family environments. [/quote]

 

It was Thatcher who told the FA to ban us Zak. They were given no choice. Thatcher waged war on football fans rather than football hooligans. As I said earlier this is not a political debate, left v right, it''s personal. It may be a right wing view that pick-pockets should have their hand chopped off. But a Thatcherite view would be that if there were pickp-pockets amongst football fans then all the fans should have their hand chopped off. She treated all fans as hooligans.

 

Thatcher''s government also didn''t recognise many of the problems that led to the disaster at Hillsborough. The Bradford fire had shown how unsafe our old stadiums were. It''s unbelievable that 4 years after that a semi-final could be held in a stadium without a safety certificate. In fact I would go as far as to say that Thatchers government and the FA actually made stadiums less safe than they already were with the ridiculous fences that were to become death traps.

 

 

[/quote]That''s a fact.  The Hillsborough docu on Sky Anytime goes on to say the fences made escape practically impossible.  Ironically, say for example, those fences weren''t there.  As sure as eggs are eggs, even though the deaths couldv''e been avoided.  The fans entering the pitch would''ve been treated as hooligans for invading the pitch.

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[quote user="The Pink un Role Model"][quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]

It wasn''t actually Thatcher who banned us it was the FA.

Her legacy of legislation for clamping down on hooliganism probably did more for our home attendances and season ticket sales decades later than Cullen and co ever did as football stadiums slowly became safe family environments.
 

[/quote]

We should be thankful for hooliganism really, if it didn''t exist we may not be where we are today.

Purple''s tiptop post on, ''A brief history of footballing times'', subtitled ''from the big bang of the industrial revolution''.
(I even imagined Purple sitting in a rocking chair reading it with a synthesized American voice).

I all seriousness it was a good read and it was clear in my opinion. That through the fallout of football hooliganism, it gave us and so called smaller clubs at the time. An open opportunity to take advantage and progress the way City and others did.
[/quote]

 

Harrumph. Clears throat and adopts gravelly American voice-over style voice:

Role Model, thanks for the compliment![:D] However honesty forces me to point out that in my not so brief history I didn''t  make any causal connection between hooliganism and the rise of what for want of a much better terms I called the footballing middle-class clubs such as ourselves. I didn''t mention hooliganism at all.

It is an interesting idea but I''m not convinced of its validity. Apart from anything else - and this is a very broad generalisation - weren''t some of the clubs with a reputation for violent fans also some of the permanently big clubs that kept on being successful?

There was a vacuum which we and other clubs filled, but I doubt hooliganism played much of a part. It was economics that was the relevant factor.

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The name probably gives it away but I''m an exiled Canary up here in Liverpool.I was a student down in London at the time and went to the semi at West Ham and then headed to the midlands courtesy of the great institution that is Capital Canaries...I remember the game like it was yesterday for all the wrong reasons.   The Holte was packed, but unlike others I didn''t feel threatened, but that''s probably due to the fact I''m a pretty big fella with the ability to look after my own personal space if there was a big surge - and there were quite a few as I remember.   Standing close to me was a bloke with the ubiquitous tranny radio & earpiece and he was giving a very good commentary on what was going on that matched exactly what must have been happening at Hillsborough.   At first it was a case of the game being delayed due to late arrival of fans, then it was crowd trouble then "a serious incident" and by the time we were losing the full horror was evident and the game didn''t matter at all.I remember getting on the train back to New Street, City fans & Evertonians alike all crowded round the fans who had their radios on, absolutely silent, nobody saying a thing.   New Street was packed with fans who were sharing the rumours, the stories, what they''d heard on the radio....the same happened on the train back to London, it was eerily quiet despite being packed with fans of both teams.Only when I got back to my university rooms did I find out the full horror & realise what had actually happened.To be honest, though my most vivid memory of the day actually comes from the Monday evening after the disaster.    Being a typical student I would be glued to the radio from 7pm to listen to the late, great John Peel.    The first track he played that evening was "You''ll Never Walk Alone" by Aretha Franklin, and Peel was understandably in tears.    It was at that exact moment that I truly understood what had happened and how football would never be the same again.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]

It wasn''t actually Thatcher who banned us it was the FA.

Her legacy of legislation for clamping down on hooliganism probably did more for our home attendances and season ticket sales decades later than Cullen and co ever did as football stadiums slowly became safe family environments.
 

[/quote]

 

It was Thatcher who told the FA to ban us Zak. They were given no choice. Thatcher waged war on football fans rather than football hooligans. As I said earlier this is not a political debate, left v right, it''s personal. It may be a right wing view that pick-pockets should have their hand chopped off. But a Thatcherite view would be that if there were pickp-pockets amongst football fans then all the fans should have their hand chopped off. She treated all fans as hooligans.

 

Thatcher''s government also didn''t recognise many of the problems that led to the disaster at Hillsborough. The Bradford fire had shown how unsafe our old stadiums were. It''s unbelievable that 4 years after that a semi-final could be held in a stadium without a safety certificate. In fact I would go as far as to say that Thatchers government and the FA actually made stadiums less safe than they already were with the ridiculous fences that were to become death traps.

 

 

[/quote]

Life was very different then Nutty in many ways it was still the era of coppers jumping into the sea to rescue people and builders not wearing yellow hats and roofers working on roofed without scaffolding. People died and changes have been made. In the same way when you walk down a street you can''t pick out the rapist, murderer and thief the government of the time used a blunt instrument to tackle the problem of football violence, it was the cheapest alternative as new grounds were not viable at the time and the innocent lawabding supporter was treated in a way he did not deserve,

far worse things have happened to me in my lifetime.

H

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[quote user="haisbrohacker"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]

It wasn''t actually Thatcher who banned us it was the FA.

Her legacy of legislation for clamping down on hooliganism probably did more for our home attendances and season ticket sales decades later than Cullen and co ever did as football stadiums slowly became safe family environments.
 

[/quote]

 

It was Thatcher who told the FA to ban us Zak. They were given no choice. Thatcher waged war on football fans rather than football hooligans. As I said earlier this is not a political debate, left v right, it''s personal. It may be a right wing view that pick-pockets should have their hand chopped off. But a Thatcherite view would be that if there were pickp-pockets amongst football fans then all the fans should have their hand chopped off. She treated all fans as hooligans.

 

Thatcher''s government also didn''t recognise many of the problems that led to the disaster at Hillsborough. The Bradford fire had shown how unsafe our old stadiums were. It''s unbelievable that 4 years after that a semi-final could be held in a stadium without a safety certificate. In fact I would go as far as to say that Thatchers government and the FA actually made stadiums less safe than they already were with the ridiculous fences that were to become death traps.

 

 

[/quote] Life was very different then Nutty in many ways it was still the era of coppers jumping into the sea to rescue people and builders not wearing yellow hats and roofers working on roofed without scaffolding. People died and changes have been made. In the same way when you walk down a street you can''t pick out the rapist, murderer and thief the government of the time used a blunt instrument to tackle the problem of football violence, it was the cheapest alternative as new grounds were not viable at the time and the innocent lawabding supporter was treated in a way he did not deserve, far worse things have happened to me in my lifetime. H[/quote]

 

 

96 innocent and lawabiding supporters lost their lives in horrific circumstances. How many more innocent and lawabiding supporters are living knowing that they live because they managed to stay on their feet while through no fault of their own they trampled people to death. I doubt there''s a hooligan alive who can say worse things have happened to him in his lifetime.

 

All through this thread fans tell their own stories of how scary those terraces had become. There had been plenty of warnings of what would happen. Lessons weren''t learned from the previous sem-final at Hillsborough.

 

What do you think is an acceptable ratio of hooligans to innocent lawabiding supporters? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? At what point does that ratio justify the way the problem was dealt with? At what point was it fair to wage war on all football fans? 1989 was not last century. It was not another age.

 

 

 

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="The Pink un Role Model"][quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]It wasn''t actually Thatcher who banned us it was the FA.Her legacy of legislation for clamping down on hooliganism probably did more for our home attendances and season ticket sales decades later than Cullen and co ever did as football stadiums slowly became safe family environments. [/quote]We should be thankful for hooliganism really, if it didn''t exist we may not be where we are today.Purple''s tiptop post on, ''A brief history of footballing times'', subtitled ''from the big bang of the industrial revolution''.(I even imagined Purple sitting in a rocking chair reading it with a synthesized American voice).I all seriousness it was a good read and it was clear in my opinion. That through the fallout of football hooliganism, it gave us and so called smaller clubs at the time. An open opportunity to take advantage and progress the way City and others did.[/quote]

 

Harrumph. Clears throat and adopts gravelly American voice-over style voice:Role Model, thanks for the compliment![:D] However honesty forces me to point out that in my not so brief history I didn''t  make any causal connection between hooliganism and the rise of what for want of a much better terms I called the footballing middle-class clubs such as ourselves. I didn''t mention hooliganism at all. It is an interesting idea but I''m not convinced of its validity. Apart from anything else - and this is a very broad generalisation - weren''t some of the clubs with a reputation for violent fans also some of the permanently big clubs that kept on being successful?There was a vacuum which we and other clubs filled, but I doubt hooliganism played much of a part. It was economics that was the relevant factor.

[/quote]Yes PC I know you didn''t mention hooligans.  It was an an opinion I sort of drew from that era.  Soz if it sounded as if I did suggest that you did.Hooliganism caused a big drop in attendances over a period, which effected all clubs up to a point. The big clubs you mentioned in your piece imo could take up the slack due to the very high numbers attending in the first place. While the plethora of other clubs struggled due to having a significant number of fans less in comparison. Therefore it created more of a level playing field in terms of finances/economics. Generally speaking clubs then didn''t have mega rich owners to bank roll them to the extent they do today.  Therefore a successful team was purely down to the skill of their manager and the ability of the club to wheel and deal on players.Hooliganism isn''t the sole reason but it could be a reason why a few smaller clubs made a surge to the top flight.

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[quote user="The Pink un Role Model"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="The Pink un Role Model"][quote user="Zak Burger"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]

It wasn''t actually Thatcher who banned us it was the FA.

Her legacy of legislation for clamping down on hooliganism probably did more for our home attendances and season ticket sales decades later than Cullen and co ever did as football stadiums slowly became safe family environments.
 

[/quote]

We should be thankful for hooliganism really, if it didn''t exist we may not be where we are today.

Purple''s tiptop post on, ''A brief history of footballing times'', subtitled ''from the big bang of the industrial revolution''.
(I even imagined Purple sitting in a rocking chair reading it with a synthesized American voice).

I all seriousness it was a good read and it was clear in my opinion. That through the fallout of football hooliganism, it gave us and so called smaller clubs at the time. An open opportunity to take advantage and progress the way City and others did.
[/quote]

 

Harrumph. Clears throat and adopts gravelly American voice-over style voice:

Role Model, thanks for the compliment![:D] However honesty forces me to point out that in my not so brief history I didn''t  make any causal connection between hooliganism and the rise of what for want of a much better terms I called the footballing middle-class clubs such as ourselves. I didn''t mention hooliganism at all.

It is an interesting idea but I''m not convinced of its validity. Apart from anything else - and this is a very broad generalisation - weren''t some of the clubs with a reputation for violent fans also some of the permanently big clubs that kept on being successful?

There was a vacuum which we and other clubs filled, but I doubt hooliganism played much of a part. It was economics that was the relevant factor.

[/quote]

Yes PC I know you didn''t mention hooligans.  It was an an opinion I sort of drew from that era.  Soz if it sounded as if I did suggest that you did.

Hooliganism caused a big drop in attendances over a period, which effected all clubs up to a point. The big clubs you mentioned in your piece imo could take up the slack due to the very high numbers attending in the first place. While the plethora of other clubs struggled due to having a significant number of fans less in comparison. Therefore it created more of a level playing field in terms of finances/economics. Generally speaking clubs then didn''t have mega rich owners to bank roll them to the extent they do today.  Therefore a successful team was purely down to the skill of their manager and the ability of the club to wheel and deal on players.

Hooliganism isn''t the sole reason but it could be a reason why a few smaller clubs made a surge to the top flight.
[/quote]

 

 

Role Model, there may be something in that. As you say it was many of the medium and medium-big clubs that suffered economically, creating the vacuum into which we and others moved. Crowds being diminished by hooligansim could well have played a part, although I would still argue that regional industrial decline was far and away the most important factor.

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I spoke to a relative at the weekend, an Everton fan who lives in Liverpool and asked him what his view was on the police action on the day, as it has always been my view that the police made a terrible mistake in opening the gates.

I said to him that that was my view and that they should have kept the gates shut. His view was that people would have been crushed anyway if they had not opened the gates due to poor police crowd control so he thought the gates should have been opened. My response to that was that the police in that case were in an impossible no-win situation.

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Currently on page 238 of the report which I am reading in detail starting from an initial point of scepticism.  Anyone who still blames Liverpool fans and has never attended a match pre-89 at Hillsborough really needs to do one, after reading so far.  I too blamed the fans immediately the news broke on Villa''s Holte End, and struggled to believe anything else out of loyalty to Sheffield, my home of choice at the time, and for the fact Heyshel prevented my home town club from playing in Europe,for some time.  But this report clearly demonstrates that was not the case.  The combination of too high a capacity limit on the terraces, poor infrastructure, too few turnstiles and the police decisions (or indecision) leading up to and on the day were all contributory to the disaster.  Even a group of fans who would normally attend Glyndebourne, for instance, would have done exactly what the Liverpool fans did on the day.  A shocking indictment of insitutional tarring of all football fans with the same brush.  And Thatcher''s focus on maintaining that view in the aftermath so as to push through her football fans ID scheme as much as anything else is what has lead to 23 years to pass. 

 

There is no wonder that all parties involved have now issued formal apologies - they could do nothing else!

 

Shocking - truly shocking.  Let us never go there again.  If it means seating at all major matches in this country so be it.  With so many owners bank rolling clubs (as Wednesday were by McGee at the time) we can never let clubs dictate what safety precautions should be taken for the ordinary fan.

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