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Hillsborough Report - Norwich Memories

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[quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="Billabong"]Unfortunately the report seems to have set out, to leave the Liverpool supporters totally blameless from the onset. This was proven by the fact the only Liverpool supporters who came under any scrutiny were the 96 dead. Their alcohol levels were even used from post-mortem results as evidence to show they were innocent. Well, lets just wake up and smell the coffee shall we! Nobody ever suggested these 96 souls were ever guilty in the first place. Being at the front of the stadium, It''s probably fair to say, they entered the ground early [with tickets] and were neither drunk or disorderly, they were 96 innocent victims. We didn''t need a report to tell us that! Sadly the report has allowed itself to go astray, [probably for emotional reasons and not wanting to upset Merseyside as a whole] but it has let these 96 souls represent 30,000 + Liverpool supporters. It has left every Liverpool supporter totally blameless. Yet film footage shows hundreds if not thousands trying to force their way into the ground. From the film footage the atmosphere appears both intimidating and hostile. By the very numbers inside the ground, several thousand, clearly broke in without tickets, or with any regard for their fellow supporters. It''s fair to say many of these supporters used aggressive behaviour, took advantage of a police weak point and were most likely under the influence of alcohol. It''s probably difficult for anyone to understand the level of hooliganism, or to imagine death as an outcome, unless they were attending games in the 70''s & 80''s but there is no excuse for overlooking the obvious! The obvious being - The 96 were totally innocent, which goes without saying but the hooligan element who aggressively forced their way into the ground, have to at the very least take some of the blame. If this report wasn''t biased enough - Ambulance Crews are held responsible for 41 deaths which could have been avoided! The report fails to highlight 800 people were injured that day. If it wasn''t for Ambulance Crews on scene the death toll would have been alarmingly higher. It seems the report never set out to have a balanced result - it just wanted to emotionally free all Liverpool supporters of any guilt[/quote]

I couldn''t agree more.

 

[/quote]

Total BS Mate, why cant it be we just have the truth at last.

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The findings have been highlighted by the PM I don''t need to read the entire report, nor do I wish to.

You are obviously a very naive individual who believes whatever he is fed - Just watch the film footage and make your own mind up - if you have one!

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[quote user="Billabong"]Unfortunately the report seems to have set out, to leave the Liverpool supporters totally blameless from the onset.

This was proven by the fact the only Liverpool supporters who came under any scrutiny were the 96 dead.

Their alcohol levels were even used from post-mortem results as evidence to show they were innocent.

Well, lets just wake up and smell the coffee shall we! Nobody ever suggested these 96 souls were ever guilty in the first place.

Being at the front of the stadium, It''s probably fair to say, they entered the ground early [with tickets] and were neither drunk or disorderly, they were 96 innocent victims. We didn''t need a report to tell us that!

Sadly the report has allowed itself to go astray, [probably for emotional reasons and not wanting to upset Merseyside as a whole] but it has let these 96 souls represent 30,000 + Liverpool supporters.

It has left every Liverpool supporter totally blameless. Yet film footage shows hundreds if not thousands trying to force their way into the ground. From the film footage the atmosphere appears both intimidating and hostile.

By the very numbers inside the ground, several thousand, clearly broke in without tickets, or with any regard for their fellow supporters. It''s fair to say many of these supporters used aggressive behaviour, took advantage of a police weak point and were most likely under the influence of alcohol.

It''s probably difficult for anyone to understand the level of hooliganism, or to imagine death as an outcome, unless they were attending games in the 70''s & 80''s but there is no excuse for overlooking the obvious!

The obvious being - The 96 were totally innocent, which goes without saying but the hooligan element who aggressively forced their way into the ground, have to at the very least take some of the blame.

If this report wasn''t biased enough - Ambulance Crews are held responsible for 41 deaths which could have been avoided! The report fails to highlight 800 people were injured that day. If it wasn''t for Ambulance Crews on scene the death toll would have been alarmingly higher.

It seems the report never set out to have a balanced result - it just wanted to emotionally free all Liverpool supporters of any guilt[/quote]Did you miss the bit where it said the police and ambulance services re-wrote statements to the sum of 140 odd from 170 or so to reflect them in a better light.Lets clear this up once and for all shall we.The ground was a disaster waiting to happen. The authorities were significantly ill-prepared. Their communication systems were outdated and inadequate. The police were hostile and aggressive and contributed to causing bottle necks with heavy handed treatment (the sort that we were all used to at those times) and fans were held up because of accidents on the roads on the way to Sheffield.Fans did turn up late and were rushing to get in - in exactly the same way as we were at Villa Park that so many of us have testified to in this thread. Yes, some were drunk (as some of us were) and many were not. It was the semi-final of the FA Cup, one of the most important games in a pre-Sky football season and so they wanted to get in to watch - just like us.So, by that definition they are guilty of one thing only and that is wanting to watch a match that they had paid good money to see (do you have any evidence to back up your thousands of ticketless fans comment or did you pluck that from the Sun?).Are they guilty for the cock-up of poor ground design, poor and hostile policing, poor response to an unfolding emergency? Do you really believe that any fan would force their way in knowing they would kill 96 of their fellow fans?Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen (as was Villa Park) and it was that way because of government, FA and police policies. And it came to pass.And then these authorities colluded to blacken the names of those that died by blaming it all on "tanked up" Scousers.If there was any urinating on bodies and pick-pocketing, it wasn''t done by Liverpool fans but all those that were there to ensure their safety and who failed them in the most miserable way!

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you are naive mate i was around in those days when football fans were treated as scum by the police, treated like cattle, herded up and pushed in grounds, horses and barking dogs nudging you along like a gestapo train. My girlfriend broke her leg once it took me half hour to convince this divvy copper to let me take her to the local hospital. In there minds every fan was a hooligan.

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[quote user="paul moy"]

Show us the documents please or shut up.

[/quote]From the report I linked earlier in the thread:[quote] The Prime Minister was briefed that ‘the defensive – and at times close to deceitful – behaviour by the senior officers in South Yorkshire sounds depressingly familiar’. The Government did not seek to protect the SYP Chief Constable and it was considered inevitable that he would resign. His resignation, however, was rejected by South Yorkshire Police Authority.[/quote][quote]Access to Cabinet documents reveals that in an exchange about her Government ‘welcoming the Report’ the Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, expressed her concern that the ‘broad thrust’ of the Taylor Report constituted a ‘devastating criticism of the police’.[/quote][quote]The Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, was briefed that ‘senior officers in command were defensive and evasive witnesses’, that ‘neither their handling of problems of the day nor their account of it in evidence showed the qualities of leadership to be expected of their rank’ and that C/Supt Duckenfield’s allegation that fans had forced a gate ‘was not only untruthful ... it caused grave offence and distress’.[/quote]The context for this next quote is about a meeting between the South Yorkshire Chief Constable, The Home Secretary, and Thatcher[quote]Comments made by Bernard Ingham, the Prime Minister’s Press Secretary, in the aftermath of the disaster and some years later provide an indication of the discussion at the meeting. His Westminster lobby briefing of 18 April 1989 records journalists being informed that ‘What had happened on Saturday was not the result of obvious hooliganism but was more a matter of safety at sports grounds’.However, this contrasts markedly with his position several years later when he wrote that during the visit to Sheffield on 16 April he ‘learned on the spot’ that ‘[t]here would have been no Hillsborough if a mob, who were clearly tanked up, had not tried to force their way into the ground. To blame the police is a cop-out’.[/quote]I don''t think its fair to blame the Government at the time for creating the cover up, but they certainly knew that the Police''s account was wrong and did nothing to bring that fact to light. Complicit is probably a fair term.

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[quote user="Billabong"]The findings have been highlighted by the PM I don''t need to read the entire report, nor do I wish to. You are obviously a very naive individual who believes whatever he is fed - Just watch the film footage and make your own mind up - if you have one![/quote]

The PM who said "Today''s report is black and white. The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster".

 

If you haven''t read the report why on earth do you feel you can comment on its contents? It very clearly states that many hours of CCTV were viewed and there is no evidence of bad behaviour by Liverpool fans. Why do people who weren''t there and haven''t read any of the evidence feel they know better than those who were, or those who have dedicated years of their life going through the evidence to uncover the truth.

 

If the fans were to blame why did the Police go through such a process of changing statements and making up stories. There is nothing in this world that honesty points to the fans being to blame for this - the only people who think they were are those with a prejudice against people from Liverpool or football fans in general.

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There are many factors and agencies worthy of blame, where do I deny that fact?

I''m simply saying, there was a hooligan element at the ground that day and they are not totally blameless - as the report likes to make out

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[quote user="Billabong"]The findings have been highlighted by the PM I don''t need to read the entire report, nor do I wish to.

You are obviously a very naive individual who believes whatever he is fed - Just watch the film footage and make your own mind up - if you have one![/quote]If you haven''t read the report maybe you shouldn''t be criticising the contents of it. All your criticisms about drunkeness/lateness/emergency services etc are dealt with.

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[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]Mr Larkin, were you going to matches in the 70s/80s?[/quote]!970 onwards… you missed the part where I referred to my own experience of Villa Park on that day I can only assume. Try reading the whole thread.

And stop being such a prick!

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[quote user="Billabong"]There are many factors and agencies worthy of blame, where do I deny that fact?

I''m simply saying, there was a hooligan element at the ground that day and they are not totally blameless - as the report likes to make out[/quote]Show your working, what evidence do you have that any hooliganism was to blame for the disaster?

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Bethnal - Has anyone on here read the entire report? I doubt anyone has, yet you accept their opinion because they agree with yours.

Any Liverpool supporter who forced their way into the ground, without a ticket has to take some of the blame.

Instead of including this hooligan element, the findings [according to the PM] would rather blame Emergency Services for not saving enough lives!

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Yellow Rider posted this very eloquent and insightful post on the other thread. Those jumping on this hysterical bandwaggon would be well served to read it.

"I can understand your annoyance at the previous post but I must admit to being a tad disturbed at now being told that Liverpool fans were ...''entirely without blame'' ''totally exonerated'' etc.  Now let me get this straight, the findings released yeterday were shocking and you''re spot on in saying that those responsible for the cover up must be pursued and criminal proceedings (if necessary) brought against them.

However, the pivotal moment of the whole day was the decision by Chief Supt. Dukinfield to open the gates. I have not yet read anything that (and to be fair it''s probably within the 400k pages somewhere!) specifically deals with that. Now notwithstanding the bungling, poor attitude and subsequent cover up by Mr. Plod, the fact  is that Dukinfield was placed in an invidious position. Open the gates and let everyone in with /without tickets or stand firm and quite possibly watch as fans got seriously injured  or died in the crush outside. What I really want to understand before I join this nationwide emotional bandwagon of unswerving support for the fans is:-

1. What exactly waas going on outside the ground at the Leppings Lane end in the minutes leading upto the gates being opened?  

2. What caused the crush - was it sheer weight of numbers spilling over from the turnstile queues or was it some fans trying to force their way inside ?

It has to be said that in the football world, the scousers have had a reputation (at big games) for some of their fans trying to............''bunk in''  (their expression). Even as recently as 2007, there was a serious (yet pretty much unreported) incident at Stamford Bridge in the Champions League semi final. Then in the final at Athens it went a stage further with reports of fans stealing tickets off others with others actually forcing their way past ticket entrances. Inside the ground there was some serious incidents of fans getting crushed in concourses trying to get on to the actual viewing areas. Now, because (thankfully) no one was seriously injured or killed the papers and mainstream media did''nt run the story. Talk Sport did though and they gave it saturation coverage the next morning.

Typically the main reaction from scousers was to blame - UEFA, the local police, the stadium, lack of tickets, in short everything and everyone apart from themselves. HOWEVER, there was one or two objective, sensible and realistic scousers who rang in with their side of the story. They confirmed the reports and one said pointedly.......''have our fans learned nothing since Hillsborough''   

Now just because ''bunking in'' happened in 2007 it sure as hell does not automatically mean that it was attempted in 1989.  Truth is we can''t be sure it didn''t happen. Camerons words have been twisted by scousers and others hell bent on blaming everyone other than the fans. What he actuallly said is very revealing:-  

''There was no evidence of EXCEPTIONAL levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness, arriving late'' etc. So some of this did hapen then.

My point to all this is that IF some fans were trying to force those gates down then they should take a share of the blame. Not ''all'' the blame,not ''most'' of the blame but ''part'' of the blame.  I retain an open mind on this until I can (if I ever do) research the whole report. Ijust have an uneasy feeling that as with other incidents it was all ....''their fault, nothing to do with the Liverpool fans or people''. Make no mistake this perception of the massive chip on the shoulder that scousers love to portray is widespread in the UK. If you were at the match at Carow Road late last season you will have heard what many City fans think about that"

Very well put, sir.

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[quote user="Billabong"]Bethnal - Has anyone on here read the entire report? I doubt anyone has, yet you accept their opinion because they agree with yours.

Any Liverpool supporter who forced their way into the ground, without a ticket has to take some of the blame.

Instead of including this hooligan element, the findings [according to the PM] would rather blame Emergency Services for not saving enough lives![/quote]Yes I have read the report, I''ve been quoting from it all bloody day. I have it open in front of me right now. If you weren''t so lazy you could read it yourself: official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf

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Castro - You weren''t around in the 70''s and 80''s were you? I''m guessing you weren''t around in the 90''s either.

Just do a couple of things, watch some film footage and also ask yourself why there were thousands more Liverpool Supporters inside the ground than Forest supporters, when both clubs had a similar ticket allocation.

Although you are not old enough try and imagine how threatening hooliganism was back then.

Ask someone a little older about the day Man Utd fans kicked the back out of the Barclay Stand, I''m guessing in your eyes the police were to blame that day.

Time to wise up and grow up and try to be a little less naive

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[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]1. What exactly waas going on outside the ground at the Leppings Lane end in the minutes leading upto the gates being opened? 2. What caused the crush - was it sheer weight of numbers spilling over

from the turnstile queues or was it some fans trying to force their way

inside ? [/quote]This is covered in the report, p94-98. I''m not going to quote it all but its there if you want to read it.[quote]It has to be said that in the football world, the scousers have had a reputation (at big games) for some of their fans trying to............''bunk in''  (their expression). Even as recently as 2007, there was a serious (yet pretty much unreported) incident at Stamford Bridge in the Champions League semi final. Then in the final at Athens it went a stage further with reports of fans stealing tickets off others with others actually forcing their way past ticket entrances. Inside the ground there was some serious incidents of fans getting crushed in concourses trying to get on to the actual viewing areas. Now, because (thankfully) no one was seriously injured or killed the papers and mainstream media did''nt run the story. Talk Sport did though and they gave it saturation coverage the next morning.[/quote]Regardless of these other events (that you provide no evidence for), two inquiries have found no evidence of significant numbers of ticketless Liverpool fans being a contributing factor to the disasters.

[quote]Now just because ''bunking in'' happened in 2007 it sure as hell does not automatically mean that it was attempted in 1989.  Truth is we can''t be sure it didn''t happen. [/quote]

Two inquiries have found no evidence that it happened, what more do you want?

[quote]Camerons words have been twisted by scousers and others hell bent on blaming everyone other than the fans. What he actuallly said is very revealing:-  

''There was no evidence of EXCEPTIONAL levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness, arriving late'' etc. So some of this did hapen then.[/quote]

Exceptional may be the word Cameron used, but in the report it is discussed in terms of significance. That is, whether or not drunkeness, ticketlessness, and lateness were contributing factors to the disaster, no evidence was found that suggested they were. Again, what more do you want? 

[quote]My point to all this is that IF some fans were trying to force those gates down then they should take a share of the blame. Not ''all'' the blame,not ''most'' of the blame but ''part'' of the blame.  I retain an open mind on this until I can (if I ever do) research the whole report. Ijust have an uneasy feeling that as with other incidents it was all ....''their fault, nothing to do with the Liverpool fans or people''. Make no mistake this perception of the massive chip on the shoulder that scousers love to portray is widespread in the UK. If you were at the match at Carow Road late last season you will have heard what many City fans think about that"[/quote]

If your aunt had balls she''d be your uncle, I don''t see how baseless conjecture trumps a 389 page comprehensive report with quotes and sources.

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[quote user="Billabong"]Castro - You weren''t around in the 70''s and 80''s were you? I''m guessing you weren''t around in the 90''s either.

Just do a couple of things, watch some film footage and also ask yourself why there were thousands more Liverpool Supporters inside the ground than Forest supporters, when both clubs had a similar ticket allocation.

Although you are not old enough try and imagine how threatening hooliganism was back then.

Ask someone a little older about the day Man Utd fans kicked the back out of the Barclay Stand, I''m guessing in your eyes the police were to blame that day.

Time to wise up and grow up and try to be a little less naive[/quote]70s no, 80s yes, I saw my fair share of hooliganism, but I just don''t see how other examples of hooliganism are particularly relevant to this specific incident.Do you think the two independent inquires into Hillsborough just missed this footage you are talking about or what? I am getting sick of saying this BUT IT IS ALL COVERED IN THE REPORT.

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[quote user="Billabong"]Bethnal - Has anyone on here read the entire report? I doubt anyone has, yet you accept their opinion because they agree with yours. Any Liverpool supporter who forced their way into the ground, without a ticket has to take some of the blame. Instead of including this hooligan element, the findings [according to the PM] would rather blame Emergency Services for not saving enough lives![/quote]

 

The report is only 395 pages long - I''ve got through most of it and come to my own opinions. I came into the whole thing with a pretty clear mind as I have never worked on the Hillsborough tragedy before. The last day and a bit has been very insightful. The report states that the behviour of the Liverpool fans wasn''t bad or anything out of the ordinary - that the Police were woefully prepared and lacked any chain of command. The safety of the stadium was the killer of course.

 

The report summary is pretty much all anyone needs to read and the BBC have done a very good job at highlighting the key pieces.

 

 

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As you have spent all day reading the entire 400 page report Castro.

Does it mention anything about the first Ambulance Crews on scene, trying to triage almost 1000 casualties and save life or does it just blame them for the deaths?

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Indy - "Here''s a question for you anti Thacherites, we have had a number of primeministers since her, why has no Labour of Conservative governments had the bottle to relaease these documents?

Are they not all as bad as each other? All covering it up? Just asking!"

As far as I am aware there was not enquiry at all under Mrs T or the subsequent government, although it seems clear that they knew of the cover up. Jack Straw (Labour) ordered a judicial scrutiny in 1997, which reported that "there is no basis for a further public inquiry." Not very effective but not covering up - goes to show that you can''t rely on the Lord Justices!

It was another Labour Home Secretary, Alan Johnson, who ordered this Independent Panel, which was presented yesterday by David Cameron, who to be fair was unequivocal in his handling of the affair.

I don''t think it is fair to say that they were all as bad as each other and that they were all covering up, and can''t really see how you reach this conclusion.

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[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]

Yellow Rider posted this very eloquent and insightful post on the other thread. Those jumping on this hysterical bandwaggon would be well served to read it.

"I can understand your annoyance at the previous post but I must admit to being a tad disturbed at now being told that Liverpool fans were ...''entirely without blame'' ''totally exonerated'' etc.  Now let me get this straight, the findings released yeterday were shocking and you''re spot on in saying that those responsible for the cover up must be pursued and criminal proceedings (if necessary) brought against them.

However, the pivotal moment of the whole day was the decision by Chief Supt. Dukinfield to open the gates. I have not yet read anything that (and to be fair it''s probably within the 400k pages somewhere!) specifically deals with that. Now notwithstanding the bungling, poor attitude and subsequent cover up by Mr. Plod, the fact  is that Dukinfield was placed in an invidious position. Open the gates and let everyone in with /without tickets or stand firm and quite possibly watch as fans got seriously injured  or died in the crush outside. What I really want to understand before I join this nationwide emotional bandwagon of unswerving support for the fans is:-

1. What exactly waas going on outside the ground at the Leppings Lane end in the minutes leading upto the gates being opened?  

2. What caused the crush - was it sheer weight of numbers spilling over from the turnstile queues or was it some fans trying to force their way inside ?

It has to be said that in the football world, the scousers have had a reputation (at big games) for some of their fans trying to............''bunk in''  (their expression). Even as recently as 2007, there was a serious (yet pretty much unreported) incident at Stamford Bridge in the Champions League semi final. Then in the final at Athens it went a stage further with reports of fans stealing tickets off others with others actually forcing their way past ticket entrances. Inside the ground there was some serious incidents of fans getting crushed in concourses trying to get on to the actual viewing areas. Now, because (thankfully) no one was seriously injured or killed the papers and mainstream media did''nt run the story. Talk Sport did though and they gave it saturation coverage the next morning.

Typically the main reaction from scousers was to blame - UEFA, the local police, the stadium, lack of tickets, in short everything and everyone apart from themselves. HOWEVER, there was one or two objective, sensible and realistic scousers who rang in with their side of the story. They confirmed the reports and one said pointedly.......''have our fans learned nothing since Hillsborough''   

Now just because ''bunking in'' happened in 2007 it sure as hell does not automatically mean that it was attempted in 1989.  Truth is we can''t be sure it didn''t happen. Camerons words have been twisted by scousers and others hell bent on blaming everyone other than the fans. What he actuallly said is very revealing:-  

''There was no evidence of EXCEPTIONAL levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness, arriving late'' etc. So some of this did hapen then.

My point to all this is that IF some fans were trying to force those gates down then they should take a share of the blame. Not ''all'' the blame,not ''most'' of the blame but ''part'' of the blame.  I retain an open mind on this until I can (if I ever do) research the whole report. Ijust have an uneasy feeling that as with other incidents it was all ....''their fault, nothing to do with the Liverpool fans or people''. Make no mistake this perception of the massive chip on the shoulder that scousers love to portray is widespread in the UK. If you were at the match at Carow Road late last season you will have heard what many City fans think about that"

Very well put, sir.

[/quote]

Thank you for your comments Mungo. Unfortunately Hillsborough stirs very passionate arguments with balance and objectivity going out of the window. Ricky is right when he mentions the attitude of the Plod in the 70''s and 80''s. EVERY football fan was a potential thug in their eyes and I''ll never forget the worst memory of Hillsborough which was of a numbskull copper standing feet away from the front fence staring in defiance as poor souls slowly fainted and then died in sheer terror just in front of him whilst he did nothing to help!

Most stories have two sides though. I have absolutely nothing against Scousers whatsoever but IF some were trying to force their way in then they MUST take part of the overall accountability surely?  If not then that gives an open door for any thugs to do just as they like and to hell with the consequences. Unfortunately we live in a society where everyone knows ''their rights'' but steadfastly refuse to accept any responsibility. It''s always someone elses fault.    

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Seriously, what more do you people want? There is a massive report, detailing everything that happened that day, and in the weeks and years that followed, with quotes, sources, witness statements, police statements, the whole works, it is comprehensive.I''ve done my bit, I don''t expect to persuade any of the people I am directly engaging with, because lets face it, you are all irrational authoritarians with a childlike view on how epistemology works. There is nothing I can do or say to reason you out of the position you hold because you haven''t reasoned yourself into it in the first place.Hopefully though, if I''ve managed to persuade some lurkers reading that your arguments are entirely without merit, then I''ve done my job.

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[quote user=" Badger"]Indy - "Here''s a question for you anti Thacherites, we have had a number of primeministers since her, why has no Labour of Conservative governments had the bottle to relaease these documents? Are they not all as bad as each other? All covering it up? Just asking!" As far as I am aware there was not enquiry at all under Mrs T or the subsequent government, although it seems clear that they knew of the cover up. Jack Straw (Labour) ordered a judicial scrutiny in 1997, which reported that "there is no basis for a further public inquiry." Not very effective but not covering up - goes to show that you can''t rely on the Lord Justices! It was another Labour Home Secretary, Alan Johnson, who ordered this Independent Panel, which was presented yesterday by David Cameron, who to be fair was unequivocal in his handling of the affair. I don''t think it is fair to say that they were all as bad as each other and that they were all covering up, and can''t really see how you reach this conclusion.[/quote]

 

Because Indy is trying to turn it into party politics which it is not. Thatcher was the PM. Thatcher also was responsible for the authorities treating all football fans like scum. Anybody who went to football matches in those days, and critically went to away games, will understand this very relevant point.

 

 

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You''ve done very well! You''ve certainly changed my view. Liverpool fans were completely blameless, to a man, and it was all the fault of Dennis Thatcher and Prince Phillip  who also personally sunk the Belgrano and drove the tanks in Tianemen Square. Or something like that. Life''s so much easier when 400 page reports tell you what to think!

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[quote user="Billabong"]As you have spent all day reading the entire 400 page report Castro.

Does it mention anything about the first Ambulance Crews on scene, trying to triage almost 1000 casualties and save life or does it just blame them for the deaths?[/quote][quote]Ambulance control room transcripts show that Ambulance Service officers, present specifically to respond to a major incident rather than have any crowd control brief, were slower than police to identify and realise the severity of the crush despite being close to the central pens.[/quote][quote]Neither SYP nor the South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service (SYMAS) fully activated the major incident procedure. Communications between all emergency services were imprecise and inappropriately worded, leading to delay, misunderstanding and a failure to deploy officers to take control and coordinate the emergency response.[/quote][quote]Only the two major Sheffield hospitals correctly activated their major incident procedures, relying on staff judgement and information received from an ambulance crew member about radio traffic he had overheard.[/quote][quote]Lack of correct activation of the major incident procedure significantly constrained effective and appropriate response. Senior ambulance officers were not deployed to specified command and control roles and an emergency foot team with essential medical equipment was not mustered. Site medical teams were not called until it was too late for them to be used to effect.[/quote][quote]The disclosed documents show clear and repeated evidence of failures in leadership and emergency response coordination. While this is understandable in the immediate moments of an overwhelming disaster, it was a situation that persisted for at least 45 minutes after injured spectators were released from the pens.[/quote][quote]Despite lack of direction, many junior ambulance staff and police officers attempted to resuscitate casualties and transfer them to the designated casualty reception point in the gymnasium. They were aided by the efforts of many fans, some of whom were injured. Doctors and nurses among the fans made a contribution to resuscitation.[/quote][quote]There was no systematic assessment of priorities for treatment or removal to hospital (triage). Individuals including ambulance staff and two doctors among the crowd attempted to compensate for the lack of an appropriate system, with varying results.[/quote][quote]There was a lack of basic necessary equipment where it was most needed, including airways, suction and swabs. While this equipment was provided on front-line ambulances, it remained in vehicles outside the stadium as crews were unaware of what was required on the pitch.[/quote][quote]The absence of leadership, coordination, systematic triage and basic equipment was also evident in the gymnasium, the designated casualty reception point. Statements and ambulance control transcripts reveal that opportunities for senior officers to exercise control were missed for almost an hour, and conditions remained chaotic.[/quote][quote]Doctors and nurses attending the match as spectators were uniquely placed to weigh the emergency services’ response against their professional experience. Their documented accounts confirm that a large majority were critical of the lack of leadership, coordination, triage and equipment.[/quote][quote]SYMAS responded vigorously to any criticism expressed publicly. Its attempts to portray criticism as the views of ill-informed and impulsive doctors caught up in the emotions of the disaster are revealed as factually incorrect. Although given wide credence, the SYMAS responses were misleading.[/quote][quote]Control room transcripts show that radio communication problems clearly hindered SYMAS’s response more than the Service was prepared to admit, but the lack of appropriate activation of the major incident procedure was more significant.[/quote][quote]Viewed entirely as an operation to deploy ambulances to the stadium, and to transport casualties as quickly as possible to hospital, the SYMAS response was rapid and efficient. Yet this ignores a significant component of the response to a major disaster set out in the SYMAS major incident plan: the provision of appropriate assessment, prioritisation and treatment on site.[/quote][quote]Disclosed records show that both main Sheffield hospitals provided prompt and effective treatment for survivors taken there, aided by the activation of their major incident procedures. This was enhanced significantly by the spontaneous attendance of a general physician at the Northern General Hospital who was well placed to manage the effects on the brain of shortage of oxygen, the principal cause of life-threatening injury.[/quote]There''s a general idea of what the report says about the ambulance service response, some good, some bad. I wouldn''t say they are ever *blamed* in it.

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Infidel Castro - I particularly like the phrase:

"There is nothing I can do or say to reason you out of the position you hold because you haven''t reasoned yourself into it in the first place."

Certainly one I shall remember, thank you.

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[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]You''ve done very well! You''ve certainly changed my view. Liverpool fans were completely blameless, to a man, and it was all the fault of Dennis Thatcher and Prince Phillip  who also personally sunk the Belgrano and drove the tanks in Tianemen Square. Or something like that. Life''s so much easier when 400 page reports tell you what to think![/quote]Well done there… yup, you''ve shown yourself up to be someone that simply ignores the FACTS presented before you by many, many people and a full judicial investigation.Grow up ffs!

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Its simple study the footage you wont see anyone fighting only for their lives, so why were the ambulance guys told there was fighting on the pitch, the police lied from the get go. Why did the fans have to rip down hoardings to use as stretches, they were that pissed they were more alert than the old bill.

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[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]You''ve done very well! You''ve certainly changed my view. Liverpool fans were completely blameless, to a man, and it was all the fault of Dennis Thatcher and Prince Phillip  who also personally sunk the Belgrano and drove the tanks in Tianemen Square. Or something like that. Life''s so much easier when 400 page reports tell you what to think![/quote]This is exactly what I mean when I talk about epistemology. You have clearly put zero thought into how and why, things are known, and how things can be known, if you lack first hand experience.Neither of us were at Hillsborough, so how can we best find out what happened there? My solution, which I believe is a rational one, is to look at the evidence. The report is at present, the best and most comprehensive collection of evidence - what other options are there?So yes, you are right, the report (or more accurately, the evidence provided within the report) has told me what to think. So lets turn the question round on you, how have you decided what to think about Hillsborough? What methods did you use to come to your conclusions?

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