Hillsborough Report - Norwich Memories

[nutty nigel 7,509]

I focus on Thatcher because her government was responsible for the legislation that was at the root of all other causes of the tragedy. Look further than that tragic day. The decisions made leading up to that day were equally if not more to blame than decisions taken on that day. Government, Police, FA and even us fans. I have held all accountable on this thread so don''t suggest otherwise. But the buck stops with the old trout.

 

 

[GenerationA47 747]

Mungo - what Castro said. His post has kindly served for the very reply I was going to make.

[Taxing 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I focus on Thatcher because her government was responsible for the legislation that was at the root of all other causes of the tragedy. Look further than that tragic day. The decisions made leading up to that day were equally if not more to blame than decisions taken on that day. Government, Police, FA and even us fans. I have held all accountable on this thread so don''t suggest otherwise. But the buck stops with the old trout.

 

 

[/quote]

So, Nutty isn’t just your name then.

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

Castro, A47. Would I be correct in assuming neither of you were born at the time?

Heysel Stadium - blameless Liverpool fans??

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Jack Slicer"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I focus on Thatcher because her government was responsible for the legislation that was at the root of all other causes of the tragedy. Look further than that tragic day. The decisions made leading up to that day were equally if not more to blame than decisions taken on that day. Government, Police, FA and even us fans. I have held all accountable on this thread so don''t suggest otherwise. But the buck stops with the old trout.

 

 

[/quote] So, Nutty isn’t just your name then.[/quote]

 

Do you have a reason for posting that or does it make you feel your clever[:^)]

 

 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]

Castro, A47. Would I be correct in assuming neither of you were born at the time?

Heysel Stadium - blameless Liverpool fans??

[/quote]

It''s totally irrelevant. We are talking about a different event at a different place.

 

Personally I think people should trust the panel that read 450,000 documents about Hillsborough rather than listen to you because you went to watch a couple of football games in Liverpool once.

 

The Liverpool fans on that day were well behaved, the majority had tickets and they weren''t any more drunk than any other crowd of football fans would be. What ever personal feelings you have towards Liverpool fans is by-the-by, on this day, at this time they were not the cause of the problems.

[ricky knight 0]

of course thatcher was there she opened the gates, she watched people getting crushed, she refused to let the emergency services into the ground, she spoon fed the press, the BS printed in the Sun, She did not renew the safety certificate on the ground, come on get real, the old Bill messed up, covered up and should now own up and heads should roll.

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]

Castro, A47. Would I be correct in assuming neither of you were born at the time?

Heysel Stadium - blameless Liverpool fans??

[/quote]No you wouldn''t be correct. Heysel is irrelevent, the blame for what happened there has zero bearing on what happened at Hillsborough. Read the report, its comprehensive. Are you going to admit you were wrong about ticketless fans?

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

No, perhaps there was some sort of cover up where the existence of tanked up ticketless fans was hushed up to make this report better reading. Loony conspiracy theories work both ways you know.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="ricky knight"]of course thatcher was there she opened the gates, she watched people getting crushed, she refused to let the emergency services into the ground, she spoon fed the press, the BS printed in the Sun, She did not renew the safety certificate on the ground, come on get real, the old Bill messed up, covered up and should now own up and heads should roll.[/quote]

 

Ricky, there are none so blind as those who won''t see. Nobody suggested Thatcher was there. If you want to isolate the situation on to just that day then it will be quite easy for everyone to find some people to blame. Then we can all go home happy in the knowledge that no actions from the past had any relevance on the tragic events of the day.

 

Somedays I''m amazed that we ever got out of caves.

 

 

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]No, perhaps there was some sort of cover up where the existence of tanked up ticketless fans was hushed up to make this report better reading. Loony conspiracy theories work both ways you know.[/quote]The difference being that one of those things is backed up by a judicial inquiry, an independant panel of experts, CCTV footage, medical evidence from the deceased, witness statements, and 450,000 documents, while the other is the diseased rantings of a mentalist on the internet.Do you have any evidence of your imagined cover up? Because I have an absolutely shitl0ad that shows the police were lying bellends about everything they said about Liverpool fans on that day.

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="Infidel Castro"][quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]No, perhaps there was some sort of cover up where the existence of tanked up ticketless fans was hushed up to make this report better reading. Loony conspiracy theories work both ways you know.[/quote]The difference being that one of those things is backed up by a judicial inquiry, an independant panel of experts, CCTV footage, medical evidence from the deceased, witness statements, and 450,000 documents, while the other is the diseased rantings of a mentalist on the internet.Do you have any evidence of your imagined cover up? Because I have an absolutely shitl0ad that shows the police were lying bellends about everything they said about Liverpool fans on that day.[/quote]Thank you Castro… you put it so much more eloquently than I could. It appears to be an inconvenient truth for Mungo Bellend.

[CambridgeCanary 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]of course thatcher was there she opened the gates, she watched people getting crushed, she refused to let the emergency services into the ground, she spoon fed the press, the BS printed in the Sun, She did not renew the safety certificate on the ground, come on get real, the old Bill messed up, covered up and should now own up and heads should roll.[/quote]

 

Ricky, there are none so blind as those who won''t see. Nobody suggested Thatcher was there. If you want to isolate the situation on to just that day then it will be quite easy for everyone to find some people to blame. Then we can all go home happy in the knowledge that no actions from the past had any relevance on the tragic events of the day.

 

Somedays I''m amazed that we ever got out of caves.

 

 

[/quote]

 

It is now clear and the documents are available to show that Thatcher was told of the police deceit.  That was the word used.  She had a personal choice.  Reveal the disgraceful behaviour of the police or say nothing and become part of the coverup.  She chose the latter.

 

Thatcher was not there.  She was a part of the coverup.  She is undoubtedly an accessory after the event and part of the conspiracy to pervert the couse of justice.  I''m afraid that that now seems to be indisputable fact.

[Indy 3,283]

As we touched on Heysel disaster, three things hit home from that!

 

The stadium was terrible, poor state and should never have been passed by EUFA as fit for use for that game!

 

Second, no one talks about the hundreds of Juventus fans marching around the perimiter with a huge banner taunting the Liverpool fans!

 

Third it was a majority of Juve fans which died so the blame appeard to be on british football, when in reality this was Italian fans at their worst too!

 

Sad event again, stupid people using football as a tribal fighting mechanism, isn''t football so much better now!

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

It wasn''t Juve fans who pushed the wall over was it? Or perhaps it was the South Yorks Police? Or Margaret and Dennis?

[Indy 3,283]

Here''s a question for you anti Thacherites, we have had a number of primeministers since her, why has no Labour of Conservative governments had the bottle to relaease these documents?

 

Are they not all as bad as each other? All covering it up? Just asking!

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]It wasn''t Juve fans who pushed the wall over was it? Or perhaps it was the South Yorks Police? Or Margaret and Dennis?[/quote]Why don''t you just spell out what it is you really want to say? Or are you fearful that you might get called out for the pr*ck you quite obvioulsy are?P*ss on their graves why don''t you?

[nutty nigel 7,509]

FACT-SHEET TWO: HILLSBOROUGH AND THE TAYLOR REPORT

April 15th 1989, saw the worst disaster in the history of English football; 96 Liverpool fans
attending their team''s FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest at Sheffield Wednesday''s
ground, Hillsborough, were crushed to death on the Leppings Lane terrace, and English
football would never be the same again.

The disaster was basically caused by the failure of South Yorkshire Police to control a large
crowd of Liverpool fans outside the Leppings Lane End, and the poor state of the ground,
but it was also clear that football''s total failure to learn from the numerous disasters that had
afflicted it during the twentieth century, and a police force conditioned to view supporters as
potential hooligans and so always expecting violence, contributed significantly to the 96 deaths
and many hundreds of injuries.

http://www.liv.ac.uk/footballindustry/hborough.html

 

And Cambridge is right. As well as being a big part of the previous failure she was also part of the cover up. The only thing she didn''t do was open the gates, watch people getting crushed,  refuse to let the emergency services into the ground, spoon feed the press, print bullshyt in the Sun, not renew the safety certificate on the ground, come on get real she''s blamess....

 

 

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="Indy"]

Here''s a question for you anti Thacherites, we have had a number of primeministers since her, why has no Labour of Conservative governments had the bottle to relaease these documents?

 

Are they not all as bad as each other? All covering it up? Just asking!

[/quote]As bad? Hmm… no, not in my opinion. She had started the generalisation of all football fans as scum and so this general acceptance that we were all animals allowed her authorities to treat us so.As for the subsequent PMs, yep, they are all complicit in perpetuating the sort of sh*t that MacKenzie spouted in his filthy rag by not getting the enquiry to this point where the revelations are now very well known.By the same token this enquiry was not set up on Cameron''s watch so it would be wrong for him to take any credit. This is not a Labour good, Tory bad… this is a Thatcher bad opinion that a lot now hold. As pointed out, she was aware that the plod had been disingenouus (polite desc.) and chose not to dig deeper as it suited her agenda.

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

What I''m saying is that I don''t buy the new "fact" that Liverpool fans had no part whatsoever to play in this disaster.  Is that plain enough for you?

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Andy..

 

I''m going to leave you to it because I don''t think I''m capable of getting the message through[Y]

 

 

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]What I''m saying is that I don''t buy the new "fact" that Liverpool fans had no part whatsoever to play in this disaster.  Is that plain enough for you?[/quote]Ok, now we might get somewhere. Some questions...- Why don''t you believe that?- Have you read the report?- What evidence do you have that Liverpool fans did play a significant role in what happened?

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]What I''m saying is that I don''t buy the new "fact" that Liverpool fans had no part whatsoever to play in this disaster.  Is that plain enough for you?[/quote]So, because I support Norwich and have never been in trouble for hooliganism, I can now be classed as a trouble-maker cos some knobheads kicked off in Leicester and scared folk witless and I happened to be at the same game? Is that what you mean? Cos that is what you are saying by continually banging your Heysel drum.Can you seriously not see that?

[Billabong 0]

Unfortunately the report seems to have set out, to leave the Liverpool supporters totally blameless from the onset.

This was proven by the fact the only Liverpool supporters who came under any scrutiny were the 96 dead.

Their alcohol levels were even used from post-mortem results as evidence to show they were innocent.

Well, lets just wake up and smell the coffee shall we! Nobody ever suggested these 96 souls were ever guilty in the first place.

Being at the front of the stadium, It''s probably fair to say, they entered the ground early [with tickets] and were neither drunk or disorderly, they were 96 innocent victims. We didn''t need a report to tell us that!

Sadly the report has allowed itself to go astray, [probably for emotional reasons and not wanting to upset Merseyside as a whole] but it has let these 96 souls represent 30,000 + Liverpool supporters.

It has left every Liverpool supporter totally blameless. Yet film footage shows hundreds if not thousands trying to force their way into the ground. From the film footage the atmosphere appears both intimidating and hostile.

By the very numbers inside the ground, several thousand, clearly broke in without tickets, or with any regard for their fellow supporters. It''s fair to say many of these supporters used aggressive behaviour, took advantage of a police weak point and were most likely under the influence of alcohol.

It''s probably difficult for anyone to understand the level of hooliganism, or to imagine death as an outcome, unless they were attending games in the 70''s & 80''s but there is no excuse for overlooking the obvious!

The obvious being - The 96 were totally innocent, which goes without saying but the hooligan element who aggressively forced their way into the ground, have to at the very least take some of the blame.

If this report wasn''t biased enough - Ambulance Crews are held responsible for 41 deaths which could have been avoided! The report fails to highlight 800 people were injured that day. If it wasn''t for Ambulance Crews on scene the death toll would have been alarmingly higher.

It seems the report never set out to have a balanced result - it just wanted to emotionally free all Liverpool supporters of any guilt

[Badger 2,405]

Mrs T was a notoriously tribal politician. For those too young to remember, she was initially hated by most of the party who only ever saw as a way to get rid of Heath who had lost them 3 elections out of 4.

"Is he one of us?" was the phrase that she is reputed to have used frequently - often with regard to her own party. The police were "one of us;" particularly the South Yorkshire Police that had been so helpful during the miners strike.

Football supporters were definitely not "one of us" - supporters were regarded by most of the reactionary right as part of the enemy within - hence the treatment.

This is summed up rather brilliantly in Fairly Secret Army - Forces of Anarchy - I urge you to look at it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nxo0fS2VMM&feature=player_detailpage

I always imagine Paul to be a bit like Jimmy!

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

[quote user="Billabong"]Lots of bollocks[/quote]You haven''t actually read the report have you?

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="CambridgeCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]of course thatcher was there she opened the gates, she watched people getting crushed, she refused to let the emergency services into the ground, she spoon fed the press, the BS printed in the Sun, She did not renew the safety certificate on the ground, come on get real, the old Bill messed up, covered up and should now own up and heads should roll.[/quote]

 

Ricky, there are none so blind as those who won''t see. Nobody suggested Thatcher was there. If you want to isolate the situation on to just that day then it will be quite easy for everyone to find some people to blame. Then we can all go home happy in the knowledge that no actions from the past had any relevance on the tragic events of the day.

 

Somedays I''m amazed that we ever got out of caves.

 

 

[/quote]

 

It is now clear and the documents are available to show that Thatcher was told of the police deceit.  That was the word used.  She had a personal choice.  Reveal the disgraceful behaviour of the police or say nothing and become part of the coverup.  She chose the latter.

 

Thatcher was not there.  She was a part of the coverup.  She is undoubtedly an accessory after the event and part of the conspiracy to pervert the couse of justice.  I''m afraid that that now seems to be indisputable fact.

[/quote]

Show us the documents please or shut up.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="Billabong"]Unfortunately the report seems to have set out, to leave the Liverpool supporters totally blameless from the onset. This was proven by the fact the only Liverpool supporters who came under any scrutiny were the 96 dead. Their alcohol levels were even used from post-mortem results as evidence to show they were innocent. Well, lets just wake up and smell the coffee shall we! Nobody ever suggested these 96 souls were ever guilty in the first place. Being at the front of the stadium, It''s probably fair to say, they entered the ground early [with tickets] and were neither drunk or disorderly, they were 96 innocent victims. We didn''t need a report to tell us that! Sadly the report has allowed itself to go astray, [probably for emotional reasons and not wanting to upset Merseyside as a whole] but it has let these 96 souls represent 30,000 + Liverpool supporters. It has left every Liverpool supporter totally blameless. Yet film footage shows hundreds if not thousands trying to force their way into the ground. From the film footage the atmosphere appears both intimidating and hostile. By the very numbers inside the ground, several thousand, clearly broke in without tickets, or with any regard for their fellow supporters. It''s fair to say many of these supporters used aggressive behaviour, took advantage of a police weak point and were most likely under the influence of alcohol. It''s probably difficult for anyone to understand the level of hooliganism, or to imagine death as an outcome, unless they were attending games in the 70''s & 80''s but there is no excuse for overlooking the obvious! The obvious being - The 96 were totally innocent, which goes without saying but the hooligan element who aggressively forced their way into the ground, have to at the very least take some of the blame. If this report wasn''t biased enough - Ambulance Crews are held responsible for 41 deaths which could have been avoided! The report fails to highlight 800 people were injured that day. If it wasn''t for Ambulance Crews on scene the death toll would have been alarmingly higher. It seems the report never set out to have a balanced result - it just wanted to emotionally free all Liverpool supporters of any guilt[/quote]

I couldn''t agree more.

 

[ricky knight 0]

mate its that day it went belly up, i was at the other semi final, that went off great apart from the result, you guys who blame thatcher for all our ills live in caves mate. Lots of mistakes were made that day had f all to do with laws set by thatcher it was the police attitude and cock ups, the police would not even let ambulances into the ground when it was obvious it was a serious situation, high ranking police officers decision not Maggies. Maggie has been out of office for years we have Just had 13 years of the red lot where that get us more lies and BS.

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

Most of those jumping on the bandwaggon to support this crusade have either a political axe to grind or have only experienced sanitised, all seater football which is a world away from the the experience of attending games home and away in the 70s and 80s as many older supporters could testify. If you didn''t visit Anfield or Goodison (or pretty much any other ground) in that period, ask someone who did. It may inform your opinion.