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Punting Canary

Hillsborough Report - Norwich Memories

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I wasn''t at Villa Park that fateful day due to playing in a local youth cup final, and so cannot comment on Norwich fans thoughts and the day on the terraces our fans had.  I can only imagine being at a game that day as the events unfolded and hearing the tragedy of it.  For those involved the search for answers for so long must have been harrowing.I was however at Upton Park for the quarter final I think it was on a sunny Saturday afternoon and memories from that day still fill me with horror at what could have happened.  I was 12 at the time.  I went with loads of family members, and although I have vague memories, three things stand out in my mind.  The first was entering the ground and walking into the terracing through a passageway that served the entire stand.  The passageway was barely wide enough for one person to walk in either direction.  Had we needed to get out in a hurry we wouldn''t have been able to.Being 12, and not the 6''3 I presently am, I took a stool in with me to allow me to see the game.  The stool lasted for about 3 minutes and the first surge of the game.  I went about 6 feet forward and 8 across but found myself having no need for the stool as due to the crush my feet did not touch the ground during the surge.  My fathers concern on his face said it all.  Thankfully neither team scored.It dawned on me after the game quite how bad the overcrowding had been that day when I left the ground after the game and I reached into my pocket, in my thick padded coat, for a fruit gum.  One of the old ones in the box rather than the round ones.  The crush had been so bad that all the fruit gums was squashed completely flat in the box.  If you have ever tried to squash one of these flat with your fingers you will know how bad the squash was that day.In no way do I wish to directly compare the events that day with the horrific events at Hillsborough but merely highlight how bad conditions were around that time in the penned in terraces of the day, and particularly at Upton Park.To those Liverpool fans seeking answers today I hope they get some.

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[quote user="Punting Canary"]

I wasn''t at Villa Park that fateful day due to playing in a local youth cup final, and so cannot comment on Norwich fans thoughts and the day on the terraces our fans had.  I can only imagine being at a game that day as the events unfolded and hearing the tragedy of it.  For those involved the search for answers for so long must have been harrowing.

I was however at Upton Park for the quarter final I think it was on a sunny Saturday afternoon and memories from that day still fill me with horror at what could have happened.  I was 12 at the time.  I went with loads of family members, and although I have vague memories, three things stand out in my mind. 

The first was entering the ground and walking into the terracing through a passageway that served the entire stand.  The passageway was barely wide enough for one person to walk in either direction.  Had we needed to get out in a hurry we wouldn''t have been able to.

Being 12, and not the 6''3 I presently am, I took a stool in with me to allow me to see the game.  The stool lasted for about 3 minutes and the first surge of the game.  I went about 6 feet forward and 8 across but found myself having no need for the stool as due to the crush my feet did not touch the ground during the surge.  My fathers concern on his face said it all.  Thankfully neither team scored.

It dawned on me after the game quite how bad the overcrowding had been that day when I left the ground after the game and I reached into my pocket, in my thick padded coat, for a fruit gum.  One of the old ones in the box rather than the round ones.  The crush had been so bad that all the fruit gums was squashed completely flat in the box.  If you have ever tried to squash one of these flat with your fingers you will know how bad the squash was that day.

In no way do I wish to directly compare the events that day with the horrific events at Hillsborough but merely highlight how bad conditions were around that time in the penned in terraces of the day, and particularly at Upton Park.

To those Liverpool fans seeking answers today I hope they get some.
[/quote]

 

I don''t know how many Norwich fans were aware of what was going on during the game. The first I knew was when I got back to my car to drive away and switched on the car radio. I took a wrong turning and got stuck as thousands of happy - presumably also unaware -  Everton fans streamed past while I listened to Peter Jones explaining the extent of the tragedy.

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The release of the Hillsborough papers reminded me of that day back in 1989 and I thought I would try to remember my own memories of the day which as most of us will know also involved another FA Cup Semi-Final at Villa Park. I drove over with my dad from King''s Lynn, leaving probably about 9ish as my dad always liked to arrive early for games. This did mean we were at Villa Park at the ridiculously early time of about 12. I was 19 at the time and it was our second big away trip of the season after the previous round at West Ham.

I seem to recall it was a gloriously hot spring day and we were in the Holte End, the large home terrace at the time which was all standing. Can''t remember if we had the whole end or not. The journey over saw us both in a really bouyant mood, with loads of other cars and coaches flying the yellow and green, scarves out of windows etc. All in all a day to really look forward to: my own first FA Cup semi-final and probably the biggest game for me since the Milk Cup Final in 85 which I''d been lucky enough to attend.

We parked the car quite near the ground, at the Witton end as far as I can recall, which was the Everton end, and were slightly worried as I knew about the local kids who weren''t averse to keying your car if you didn''t give them some cash. I think we gave over a pound with a promise of another one at the end and this did actually work as we got back to find exactly what we had left.

The game itself passed in a blur. We were really poor and with such high expectations, that was the worst part of the day, knowing we could have won the game and got to Wembley. I think it''s fair to say that getting to the F A Cup Final in 1989 was far more than it is now, being pre-Premier League etc. All the talk was of Robert Fleck''s absence and whether it made a difference. Who knows?   

This was also in the days before social media. No internet, no I-phones etc. Some people had radios but information from Hillsborough was confused at best and limited to a few people. We even saw Everton fans after the game who didn''t know what was happening and were desperately looking for news. It was only on the journey home that we appreciated the full significance and after about an hour of the drive we really had to stop, find a pub and have a quiet drink. We got talking to other City and Everton fans and I can''t recall much talk if any about our game. It was all about Hillsborough, with the thought that a significant number of people has set off that morning exactly as we had and would not be returning home. Bear in mind also that the death toll was only in single figures initially due to the widespread confusion. Even when reaching home it didn''t seem to be anywhere near the 50s or 60s, let alone nearly a hundred. I remember getting back to Lynn about 9 and had never felt more miserable after a day out at the football. Even the worst away days can normally bring some black humour or moments to laugh about. This had none. Went out for a load more beers when I got home and the rest of the season didn''t have the same resonance for me. I know my dad took a long time before he felt comfortable going to away matches, and it was probably not until the Birmingham play-off final that we had the same sort of trip as memories had faded. We still talk about it though.

Thoughts of others welcomed.

     

 

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Was at the West Ham game, and looking back it could have been tricky had something occurred. However, I took my wife to be to the semi at Villa Park - a "mate" had got tickets for me, ended up in the Everton lot - the stewards were great, led us onto the pitch and marched us round to the Holte end where they opened a pen gate, let us in, and locked it behind us. My other half commented on it then, saying she felt trapped - I just said something like it''s fine, nothing will happen, and of course we all believe nothing will happen. Got news around half time that there seemed to be a bit of trouble at the other semi, but wasn''t until we got back to the car that we realised the extent of the tragedy unfolding. Needless to say, our result didn''t matter any more and we had a quiet and sad trip back down to High Wycombe.

I really hope the release of these documents answer all the questions that have been raised - and the families and friends of lost loved ones can at least have some kind of closure on what must have been a harrowing 23 years.

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I was at Villa Park and heard during the game that it had been abandoned, but not realising the seriousness. The drive home was very quiet listening to the radio ,and not understanding why it turned out to be such a tragedy, and of that magnitude

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I remember that day, being a young lad, i was at home waiting for the games to kick off, waiting for the Norwich Team to be announced, then it came over that there was problems at Hillborough, i just thought it was trouble involving fans fighting, then when the news broke that some fans had died, our game didnt seem so important!

For weeks later i kept all paper pictures of the terrible event, in my bed-side cupboard, and only about ten years later on when i moved out, did i find these and decided to re-move them,

Then when i done my NEBOSH course for H+S we had to watch the Bradford fire disaster, that all those memorys from Hillsborough come flooding back!!

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I was standing in the Holte end that day, somewhere close to the middle that separated the Norwich and Everton fans.

 

I remember seeing on the scoreboard at the far right of the ground as I was looking, which said that the match at Hillsborough had been abandoned.  I turned to a copper in the middle of the two sets of fans and asked if he knew what was going on, to which he replied that he didn''t but guessed it would be the "Scouse fans rioting".  How wrong can you be.

 

The journey home was very quiet once we had found out what actually happened.  In fact, barely a word was spoken between the 6 of us in the car that day.  The result at Villa Park seemed irrelevant.

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I was only 3 when this happened but I have seen the extent of this tragedy.

A friend of mine is a devout evertonian however he nearly chucked me out of his house when I bought a sun newspaper round!

It sounds like a massive cover up to protect the police force and something needs to be done

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[quote user="crabbycanary"]I was at Villa Park and heard during the game that it had been abandoned, but not realising the seriousness. The drive home was very quiet listening to the radio ,and not understanding why it turned out to be such a tragedy, and of that magnitude[/quote]

I too was in the middle of the Norwich fans at Villa park that day.  Vaguely remember that it was initially announced that the game at Hillsborough had been suspended and then sometime after that abandoned.  Didn''t know what had happened until we got back to the car.  Stopped at a pub on the way home somewhere in the middle of Leicestershire and cannot recall a pub rammed to the rafters with Norwich fans ever being so quiet.

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I remember getting on the coach and hearing the match had been abandoned, because of fans spilling on the pitch. We just assumed it was hooligans again. Around an hour into the journey home we heard there had been some deaths. By the time we put the telly on the full horror of what happened hit.

 

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I was at the Everton game and only saw the extent of Hillsborough on the news when I got home. Before they opened the gates they showed the Liverpool fans coming down the road in thousands minutes before kick off, it showed a policeman on his horse pick up a young child to protect it from the rush, I believe that the police were damned if they did and damned if they didnt open the gates as the crush would have happened outside instead.

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I too was at the Everton game, What i didn''t realise until today was that there had been a similar incident the year before but without fatalities. That is why SWFC issued an apology this morning, it could have been prevented. Lessons learnt or in this case lessons not learnt is a phrase that wears thin the more you hear it.

H

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I was at Villa Park and didn''t have a clue what was happening at Hillsborough. It was only after I left the ground to catch my train back to Swindon, I found there were Liverpool fans on the train, aware that the game must have been called off I approached them and they told me what had happened.A miserable trip back for all of us.

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I too was in the Holte End that day,  like others there was no sense in the ground of what was happening in Sheffield,  it was only as we walked away from Villa Park that the horror started to reveal itself.  

It as the most uncomfortable I had ever felt on the terraces and had there been a surge of incoming fans at Villa Park it was all to easy to imagine a similar outcome.

It was a horrific chain of events and unique circumstances coming together,  a cruel combination of events culminating in the tragedy that wont be forgotten if we have witnessed it. 

For me this report reveals little to me and could be dismissed  for a tragedy of this proportion to take place there has to be culpability across all involved,  from the estimates of capacity (although dozens of games had previously accomodated similar sales), the introduction of barriers around the pitch (catalyst being english fans violent culture) , the trend of fans to arrive late at games creating a surge (and knowing you could get in for free if doing so in numbers),  to forceful unresponsive policing (see violent fans) in the face of clear suffering. 

It is now time for these people to be able to RIP.

 

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I doubt very much if this will be the end of matters. There will no doubt be a second enquiry and depending on verdict compensation for the families of the victims and a day in court for those deemed criminally involved or responsible, but i would guess some are dead and or in their later years.

Truth and reconciliation are more important in my mind than a lengthy legal process, public apologies from those concerned who have done wrong. The wrongs in SA and the Irish issue shows that there is another way.

H

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It was a very depressing day.It started badly if i remember right as Flecky missed the game due to his father''s death, he was our key player at the time.The Holte end was packed and there was nowhere to stand other than on the paths to the exits, it really was rammed full and then we didn''t turn up for the match either.I think those with radios knew something wasn''t right at Hillsborough but it was only on the journey home the full extent of it became apparent.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

I don''t know how many Norwich fans were aware of what was going on during the game. The first I knew was when I got back to my car to drive away and switched on the car radio. I took a wrong turning and got stuck as thousands of happy - presumably also unaware -  Everton fans streamed past while I listened to Peter Jones explaining the extent of the tragedy.

[/quote]

 

Others have mentioned hearing the news on the radio. This was Peter Jones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieVUJZJbeiM

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Interesting how general opinion smoothly does its about-turn. Until today it was all about denying any wrongdoing or cover-up by the authorities, and all the blame being on those dishonest scousers (admittedly an easy target due to their reputation and mid-80s history of deadly violence).

Now that it''s officially proved to be the other way around, it''s either "there''s nothing new in this report" [er, only if you avoid reading it, or about it], "everyone was at fault so let''s call it quits" [again, now officially counter-factual - see above] or "it''s too long ago now for it to be worth seeing justice done" [a worrying argument, not often used in cases of spectacular negligence & worse leading to mass deaths. I wonder if you''d feel that way if you were the parent].

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At least it was a catalyst for good though, watching games is a lot safer than it was back then, and I get sick of people moaning about how "It was better standing up back then".

Also exposed the Sun, again. Piece of shit tabloid with piece of shit "journalists". Sick.

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[quote user="GenerationA47"]Interesting how general opinion smoothly does its about-turn. Until today it was all about denying any wrongdoing or cover-up by the authorities, and all the blame being on those dishonest scousers (admittedly an easy target due to their reputation and mid-80s history of deadly violence).

Now that it''s officially proved to be the other way around, it''s either "there''s nothing new in this report" [er, only if you avoid reading it, or about it], "everyone was at fault so let''s call it quits" [again, now officially counter-factual - see above] or "it''s too long ago now for it to be worth seeing justice done" [a worrying argument, not often used in cases of spectacular negligence & worse leading to mass deaths. I wonder if you''d feel that way if you were the parent].[/quote]

Who would you like to see prosecuted?

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[quote user="mr.carrow"]this week every ground in the country should be chanting "justice for the 96".

we play 1st lets start it off[/quote]Someone suggested to Jonny Lally- (club journo) on twitter that we should play (or at least sing) YWNA before the game.I think it''s a really good idea to be honest!

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[quote user="mr.carrow"]Someone suggested to Jonny Lally- (club journo) on twitter that we should play (or at least sing) YWNA before the game.I think it''s a really good idea to be honest![/quote]It might be more appropriate if we sung a certain NWA track imo.

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Who should be prosecuted? 

 

I think it will remain so difficult to pinpoint who is responsible for the death of these innocents;   with fans,  local government authorities, SWFC, match day officials/stewards, police, emergency staff and even players and refs (they could see the tragedy unfolding yet played on for too long) all playing some contributing part to this disaster on the day and in the weeks, months, years before.    Its easy to say the police,  but after 23 years it can be easy to forget that a lot of what was done was standard best policing practice at that time,  that does not make it right,  but its hard to argue an intent to injure when the decision had previously been use to minimise loss.  Decsions taken were wrong, tragic and fatal  

 

I think it is easier to prosecute those for events post match day, particularly those that have doctored witness statements to cover up errors, they should face charges for obstructing ustice,  which I suspect will be individual police officers across ranks as well as others involved such as the coroners office etc.   Whether kelvin davis or anyone for the sun will face prosecution for the story and headline again seem unlikely. 

 

This will continue to run for years with renewed civil compensaiton and criminal prosecutions claims. 

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"Who would you like to see prosecuted?"

I think it''s more a question of who the attorney general would like to see prosecuted. Followed by who will the parents and relatives choose to take to court.

I suspect judging from today''s reports, it may involve named former officials with South Yorks police and even the ambulance service.

The officials at Sheffield Wed FC and Sheffield City Council who were responsible for respectively owning/operating, and incorrectly certifying for safe use for public events, a ground with numerous contributing unsafe features even by the poor standards of the day (as extensively documented elsewhere) may not however be involved, as I assume from the coverage that these aspects haven''t been looked at in this report.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Who should be prosecuted? 

 

I think it will remain so difficult to pinpoint who is responsible for the death of these innocents;   with fans,  local government authorities, SWFC, match day officials/stewards, police, emergency staff and even players and refs (they could see the tragedy unfolding yet played on for too long) all playing some contributing part to this disaster on the day and in the weeks, months, years before.    Its easy to say the police,  but after 23 years it can be easy to forget that a lot of what was done was standard best policing practice at that time,  that does not make it right,  but its hard to argue an intent to injure when the decision had previously been use to minimise loss.  Decsions taken were wrong, tragic and fatal  

 

I think it is easier to prosecute those for events post match day, particularly those that have doctored witness statements to cover up errors, they should face charges for obstructing ustice,  which I suspect will be individual police officers across ranks as well as others involved such as the coroners office etc.   Whether kelvin davis or anyone for the sun will face prosecution for the story and headline again seem unlikely. 

 

This will continue to run for years with renewed civil compensaiton and criminal prosecutions claims. 

[/quote]

 

For such a disater to occur I don''t believe just one person or one body of people can be to blame. For such a disater a series of events occur simultaeneously. Perhaps in the end the tree of causes will take you back to the first mistake. But there will be a series of events that accumulate afterwards.

 

If a guy jumps a red light the odds are still in his favour. He''s relied on his own instincts and gets away with it. But if another guy risks speeding up as his lights are about to change and if the lights are slightly out of sync these other factors will make the accident much more likely.

 

I can understand the need for justice. I can''t imagine how devastating it was for the families concerned. But I also feel their need for someone to blame may never be satisfied.

 

 

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Agree with Zipper that the falsifications and cover ups are going to be the likeliest/easiest avenues of public prosecution or enquiry. One could add into the picture the W Midlands police (yes, they of the Seriously Fraudulent Squad) team who South Yorks invited to conduct the first ''independent'' investigation and ''amazingly'' missed any sign of foul play. Again, this hasn''t been looked at today.

It would be nice to hope it was mainly down to the poor safety standards and strategies of the day. But clearly the chief constable, his senior officers and the police federation (and ambulance service managers) were aware that something so serious had gone wrong, that they couldn''t afford to allow their own employees'' critical statements to be found out, or indeed themselves to tell the truth to the Taylor enquiry.

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