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Mister Chops

Most unfairly derided City player?

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Unfortunatly we have a minority of fans who just love to moan, every month a different player seems to get targeted.

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[quote user="kingsway"]The stick the Doc got from many fans was quite ridiculous since he was for much of his time at the club one of our best players though like someone else said, there was also many who quite rightfully saw the Doc for quaility CB he was![/quote]No, he was a complete liability and always looked likely to make a mistake every time the ball went near him.The problem was simple in that he could play very well for 85 minutes, but then he''d do something silly or switch off and bang! - they''ve scored. There are numerous players like this e.g. Bramble, who are a risk every game because of this deficiency.I also don''t know how anyone can defend his awful use of the classic ''bear-hug'' pretty much every single game.I was glad to see the back of him and seeing how since leaving us he''s never played above L1 level, it clearly shows the regard other clubs hold him in as well...

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="kingsway"]The stick the Doc got from many fans was quite ridiculous since he was for much of his time at the club one of our best players though like someone else said, there was also many who quite rightfully saw the Doc for quaility CB he was![/quote]
No, he was a complete liability and always looked likely to make a mistake every time the ball went near him.

The problem was simple in that he could play very well for 85 minutes, but then he''d do something silly or switch off and bang! - they''ve scored. There are numerous players like this e.g. Bramble, who are a risk every game because of this deficiency.

I also don''t know how anyone can defend his awful use of the classic ''bear-hug'' pretty much every single game.

I was glad to see the back of him and seeing how since leaving us he''s never played above L1 level, it clearly shows the regard other clubs hold him in as well...
[/quote]

 

Quite right. In fact, for the entire time he was here we should be grateful for the extremely poor standard of refereeing that we encountered. Those "bear-hugs" were purely one way traffic and any ref worth his salt would have blown up every time, in fact how he wasn''t red carded by the tenth minute of every game for persistent fouling is a mystery. It''s weird isn''t it? Grant Holt seems to get in a few of these grappling matches with centre halves and the centre half is penalised every single time, I''ve never seen Holt commit a foul, so how did the Doc get away with his part in these physical confrontations?

 

He also gave away at least three penalties a game, I always saw them quite clearly, how the officials missed them is beyond me.

 

Lambert canned him straight away. He could spot a weakness.

 

 

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Yeah, the amount of criticism Doherty got was just ludicrous. But it''s just ignorance. People who don''t know what they''re looking at or what they''re talking about having too much to say for themselves.

 

I mean I''ve just seen a comparison to Titus Bramble and that says it all, it''s more nonsense. Titus Bramble is a quality footballer. If anyone has ever seen him play, particularly in the flesh, they should be able to see that (if they have a football brain). Bramble has made a very small number of eye catching mistakes in his career but people let them dominate their opinion of him and don''t have enough about him to realise that he delivers good performances most weeks and that''s why he continues to play in the Premier League - because people in the game know that he''s a classy player.

 

Same with Gary Doherty, he''s not as good a player as Bramble, but he''s cut out a career playing a lot of games for Tottenham, Norwich City and international football too. You don''t do that if you can''t play the game.

 

I wonder if critics of Doherty would consider Michael Turner a good signing? Afterall, Turner has done about the same in the game as Doherty and has had to drop down from a bigger and more established Premier League side to join us. There are definite similarities too.

 

I''m pleased about the Turner signing though because I remember watching him before he joined Norwich and I know he''s a decent defender. Same as I knew Gary Doherty played some good stuff for Spurs and he would be a good signing for us - which he was.

 

And I know my stuff. :-)

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[quote user="GJP"]I mean I''ve just seen a comparison to Titus Bramble and that says it all, it''s more nonsense. Titus Bramble is a quality footballer. If anyone has ever seen him play, particularly in the flesh, they should be able to see that (if they have a football brain). Bramble has made a very small number of eye catching mistakes in his career but people let them dominate their opinion of him and don''t have enough about him to realise that he delivers good performances most weeks and that''s why he continues to play in the Premier League - because people in the game know that he''s a classy player.[/quote]That classy that Newcastle let him go on a free to the ''mighty'' Wigan, who then sold him on to Sunderland, and he''s since struggled to hold down a place there and they want to offload him now as well.The key point is that it doesn''t matter if a player is brilliant for 95% of the game if they''re making critical errors and mistakes in the other 5% that cost their side points. I''ve seen numerous occasions where Bramble has made an error which has proved costly - and not just the high profile ones either, and it''s this weakness I have a problem with. I can live with players who make the odd minor mistake or who just lump it out of play to safety when they could have taken more time and passed it, but it''s players who regularly make mistakes which lead to us conceding I can''t reconcile. [quote]I wonder if critics of Doherty would consider Michael Turner a good signing? Afterall, Turner has done about the same in the game as Doherty and has had to drop down from a bigger and more established Premier League side to join us. There are definite similarities too.[/quote]I do see Turner as a good signing and I don''t see a major similarity at all. Turner came up with Hull and earned his move to Sunderland via some excellent defensive play, but has since struggled with injury problems and competition in a better overall squad than the one he left. He''s still playing at the same level and in a side that finished 12th last season - hardly a drop down. What''s more is that he doesn''t look like he''s going to fall over, manhandle the striker and give away needless free kicks like the aforementioned Doherty was prone to do.[quote]And I know my stuff. :-)[/quote]So do I and I can''t agree regarding Doherty in the slightest...

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[quote user="Victor Segura and the Yellow Cards"]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="kingsway"]The stick the Doc got from many fans was quite ridiculous since he was for much of his time at the club one of our best players though like someone else said, there was also many who quite rightfully saw the Doc for quaility CB he was![/quote]
No, he was a complete liability and always looked likely to make a mistake every time the ball went near him.

The problem was simple in that he could play very well for 85 minutes, but then he''d do something silly or switch off and bang! - they''ve scored. There are numerous players like this e.g. Bramble, who are a risk every game because of this deficiency.

I also don''t know how anyone can defend his awful use of the classic ''bear-hug'' pretty much every single game.

I was glad to see the back of him and seeing how since leaving us he''s never played above L1 level, it clearly shows the regard other clubs hold him in as well...
[/quote]

 

Quite right. In fact, for the entire time he was here we should be grateful for the extremely poor standard of refereeing that we encountered. Those "bear-hugs" were purely one way traffic and any ref worth his salt would have blown up every time, in fact how he wasn''t red carded by the tenth minute of every game for persistent fouling is a mystery. It''s weird isn''t it? Grant Holt seems to get in a few of these grappling matches with centre halves and the centre half is penalised every single time, I''ve never seen Holt commit a foul, so how did the Doc get away with his part in these physical confrontations?

 

He also gave away at least three penalties a game, I always saw them quite clearly, how the officials missed them is beyond me.

 

Lambert canned him straight away. He could spot a weakness.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Bang on the money Vic!

 

I wouldn''t be surprised to see Doc''s name linked to match fixing allegations due to the bribery of referees. I wonder how much it cost him to have those red cards stay in the pocket and penalty appeals ignored. I should think for so many each game over such a large number of years the amount of money involved must be enormous!

 

 

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" Bramble has made a very small number of eye catching mistakes in his career"

 

Just s Harold Shipman ''made a few mistakes''

 

Tortoise Bumble og had the fortune to have a good agent in Jonathan Barnett who was behind a number of over rated ex binners being promoted way beyond their abilities .... Plug, Dyer and most recently the boy blunder. Unsurprisingly O''Neill who doesn''t appear to have the same ''arrangement'' with Barnett has not given Bumble or the boy blunder much in the way of Premier League games, and it is most likely that they may well be on the way sooner rather than later.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WpG5UHZgCg

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

I wouldn''t be surprised to see Doc''s name linked to match fixing allegations due to the bribery of referees. I wonder how much it cost him to have those red cards stay in the pocket and penalty appeals ignored. I should think for so many each game over such a large number of years the amount of money involved must be enormous!

[/quote]

First you were running on about Watling''s wallet and every opportunity and now it is the Doc and his dosh.The question for me is who pocketed the most Watling or Doc ?[:D]

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"]
I do see Turner as a good signing and I don''t see a major similarity at all. Turner came up with Hull and earned his move to Sunderland via some excellent defensive play, but has since struggled with injury problems and competition in a better overall squad than the one he left. He''s still playing at the same level and in a side that finished 12th last season - hardly a drop down. What''s more is that he doesn''t look like he''s going to fall over, manhandle the striker and give away needless free kicks like the aforementioned Doherty was prone to do.
[/quote]

Ok but Anthony Pilkington got bought by us and didn''t "earn" his promotion. Does that make him a lesser player?

Gary Doherty like, for example, Anthony Pilkington, got his move to a bigger club because he''d shown good form and ability elsewhere. That''s what happens in football.

 

Wait a minute, Gary Doherty struggled with injury problems at Spurs. He got a broken leg. Quite a bad injury so they say. He was doing really well for them until then and was a regular. But when he came back from his broken leg they''d moved on. And, as you''ve pointed out, Michael Turner had injury problems at Sunderland and now they can do without him so he''s had to move on. A massive similarity.

 

When did Gary Doherty used to look like he was going to fall over? What''s all this manhandling business? Is it any different to what every other defender does? Nope. Is Gary Doherty defender the only defender to give away freekicks? No. Did he gave away loads of needless ones? No.



 

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Malky was a far more proliferant wrestler than the Doc

 

I half expected him to come onto the pitch in an old dressing gown and sit on a stool in the corner of the pitch before the game

 

He was not sent off or booked because whenever he tumbled over still clasping another player the ref would kneel beside him and begin counting to ten

 

'' ah oner'' , '' ah twoer'' ...........

 

 

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[quote user="Herman "]The King of Spain got a fair bit of grief for a while.[/quote]      yeah, but that was mainly from the rodent, not the fans.

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[quote user="GJP"]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]
I do see Turner as a good signing and I don''t see a major similarity at all. Turner came up with Hull and earned his move to Sunderland via some excellent defensive play, but has since struggled with injury problems and competition in a better overall squad than the one he left. He''s still playing at the same level and in a side that finished 12th last season - hardly a drop down. What''s more is that he doesn''t look like he''s going to fall over, manhandle the striker and give away needless free kicks like the aforementioned Doherty was prone to do.
[/quote]

Ok but Anthony Pilkington got bought by us and didn''t "earn" his promotion. Does that make him a lesser player?

Gary Doherty like, for example, Anthony Pilkington, got his move to a bigger club because he''d shown good form and ability elsewhere. That''s what happens in football.

 

Wait a minute, Gary Doherty struggled with injury problems at Spurs. He got a broken leg. Quite a bad injury so they say. He was doing really well for them until then and was a regular. But when he came back from his broken leg they''d moved on. And, as you''ve pointed out, Michael Turner had injury problems at Sunderland and now they can do without him so he''s had to move on. A massive similarity.

 

When did Gary Doherty used to look like he was going to fall over? What''s all this manhandling business? Is it any different to what every other defender does? Nope. Is Gary Doherty defender the only defender to give away freekicks? No. Did he gave away loads of needless ones? No.



 

[/quote]

 

I have heard from a reliable source that once he hangs his boots up, he has already been signed up by WWE.

 

Called Ginja his textbook move is going to be a clumsy stumble into his opponent as he runs across him resulting in all parties hitting the canvas before Ginja gets back to his feet and stands in a "hands up" pose while shaking his head at the referee. While this is going on, all the real action is taking place behind him and when he finally "rejoins play" the match is usually out of sight in favour of the opposition.

 

A comedic character and habitual loser, his walk on music will be some kind of circus theme tune.

 

 

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"I''m not too sure any player really deserves the flack they get ..........

 

................ other than Damian Francis at Craven Cottage in 2005"

 

^^^This^^^

Any player giving 100% for the shirt will always have my full support.

 

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Some contenders from me:

Matthias Jonsson- played in prem season but was hopelessly utilised by Worthington as a winger but he was a striker with little pace. Played up front a couple of times at the end and looked OK. Had bucket loads of Swedish caps so can''t have been too bad.

 

Carl Robinson- I actually thought he was OK, but got vast amounts of stick which seemed to dent his confidence

 

Iwan Roberts got a lot early on in his City career, just shows you can''t judge too hastily

 

Keith O''Neill, I know he was a prima donna but actually had quite a bit of skill but everyone thought he was rubbish as he was quite lanky. Similar applies to Chris Llewellyn.

 

I also remember a guy called Mortensen, danish forward who looked OK but struggled initially and seemed to fall out of favour. Seem to recall he scored against the sc*m.

 

Daryl Sutch- very versatile and played loads of games but seemed to get tarred as a mediocre utility player.

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Henrik Mortensen!

I don''t recall anyone thinking Keet was crap, or did I miss that. The only complaint I remember anyone having was that he was made of blimmin glass!

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Another criticism always thrown at Doc was about "how slow he was" , even though he was rapid, Darren Huckerby has even said that the Doc was the second quickest person at the club, but people just chose to ignore that...... the Doc  never had a decent centre back playing alongside him, I always thought Shackell was way out of his depth when we were in the championship, used to always be out of position and cost us goals which the Doc would get the blame for, although to be fair Shackell was good when he was loaned back to us. I still have nightmares about Shackell and Otsemobor in our defence..... Semmy was easily the biggest liability I have ever seen in a Norwich shirt and Shackell never got criticized because he came from our academy.

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Kevin Bond took an awful lot of stick because of his "Daddy''s Boy" credentials but let''s face it, he wasn''t half bad when he settled in.  Alan Black, on the other hand, showed some flashes of decent quality before the crowd got on his back and made his life a misery.  He was almost a prototype for the experience of Gary Docherty at our club where people were on his back from the first moment and he never really won them over despite his best effots. 

 

I thought Docherty was quite decent and better than many of his playing partners.  I thought Black suffered from not being Ron Davies in the same way that Morison suffers from not being Grant Holt.

 

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[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

I wouldn''t be surprised to see Doc''s name linked to match fixing allegations due to the bribery of referees. I wonder how much it cost him to have those red cards stay in the pocket and penalty appeals ignored. I should think for so many each game over such a large number of years the amount of money involved must be enormous!

[/quote]

First you were running on about Watling''s wallet and every opportunity and now it is the Doc and his dosh.The question for me is who pocketed the most Watling or Doc ?[:D]

[/quote]

 

Well now Tilly. I don''t know who pocketed the most but I reckon Doc invested the most. He must have been a millionaire or richer to be able to afford to bribe that many people. When you consider that if the ref didn''t take the bribe and gave Doc a red card and awarded a penalty Doc then bribed the FA and got the red card overturned. Could do nothing about the penalty though proving that results can''t be affected by retrospective bribes.

 

Bribery and corruption don''t come cheap Tilly!

 

 

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Given that Doherty had to play both right sided central defender and right back for a significant proportion of his matches, I don''t think he did too badly.
I always wonder if had Shackell played on the right and Doherty on the left, how different opinions of the two would be. 

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" I thought Black suffered from not being Ron Davies "

 

eh ?

 

 

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[quote user="City1st"]

" I thought Black suffered from not being Ron Davies "

 

eh ?

 

[/quote]

I''m amazed a seasoned "fan" as yourself doesn''t remember

 

"Black is Black.....

We Want Ron Davies Back"

 

Or so the Barclay chant went.  We never gave him a real chance, let''s be honest.  I have to say I was party to the goading at times and while I don''t feel guilty about it exactly I suppose I could have been more tolerant of his tendency to "pass" it out of play (off his head or shin, usually) when under pressure.

 

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I remember Danny Mills getting no end of stick from people around me,for,as I recall, no other reason than he was a local lad! He went on to have a great career elsewhere and was voted one of the best players in 2002 World Cup. I know he now comes across as an arrogant tosser who hates Norwich, but maybe the abuse he got here his is the reason for this?[*-)]

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err that was just words to a song at the time that related to the loss of Ron Davies, not his ''replacement'' by Alan Black

 

my own abiding memory of Alan Black was as a young lad stood up against the railings in the Barclay I heard Keelan eff and blind at him for hoofing the ball clear, by slicing it out for a corner

 

those were the days when you could sit on the terraces between the Barclay and the South Stand and watch the game - can''t think what I was doing down the front, hardly ever stood there, if at all

 

 

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[quote user="City1st"]

err that was just words to a song at the time that related to the loss of Ron Davies, not his ''replacement'' by Alan Black

[/quote]

Now I don''t know about that. I was around thirteen at the time and I like to think I was up with what was going on.  My uncle certainly thought it was the case that the song was referring to Alan Black and Ron Davies but perhaps it was coincidence.

I had a search online and this link doesn''t appear overly scientific but should back me up, as might some of the other older folk on this forum?

http://canaryseventyninety.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/quote-unquote.htm

On your second point, Black did have a tendency to "shank" it under pressure.  No composure, but again, I suppose my point is "would he have had more composure if the crowd (and players) hadn''t been on his back so much?"  I didn''t go to away matches but apparently he wasn''t too bad when the local fans were on the whole team''s back rather than just his.  Perhaps he was a forerunner of someone like Keith O''Neill, who never really did it at Carrow Road but by all accounts put in some handy away performances.

 

Keelan might have made a half-decent manager, he was certainly forthright in his views on the back four''s performances.

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How about Mick McGuire?

Always thought he was a good all round midfielder who got unfair stick, possibly for his tendency for sideways passes.

Wasn''t Mick Channon supposed to have said he was one of the best he played with?  

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