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AndyCanary

The talk of why Holt handed in his transfer request

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[quote user="ricky knight"]never heard of him mate. Definately not my source, interesting he has the same idea though.[/quote]He''s a Sun football journalist and Norwich City fan. And just to make a small point, if he was the source for whoever your source is, then that makes him your source. I''d play safe and assume he is, otherwise this is the trap that embellishes rumours, where it appears there are two independent sources but there aren''t really.

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[quote user="Clint"]ABC''s post made good sense but the goal bonus is not something I would be keen on as surely that would mean personal glory far outweighs the team ethos for Holt.Once Holt hits his 10 goals, each time he gets near the goal he will see £200k staring him in the face, which I would suggest may have an influence on his decision making......should I pass to a colleague more likely to score or do I want to gamble and go for the £200k jackpot myself?  Hmmmm, I wonder.[/quote]And if we won a penalty any guesses who''d been very keen to take it ? Hmmmm, I wonder [:D]

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Just read the earlier posts about bonusses for goals and thought I''d throw something else into the pot.  What if one of Holt''s motivations for asking for the security of an extra year on his contract was because he was already on a healthy bonus per goal scored.  You will remember that Holt wasn''t picked in the starting line-up on a few occassions toward the end of the season which was quite surprising, probably not in the least to him.  This reduced his potential income and may be the true source of the internal tensions that have been reported.  Holt could have thought that with Lambert around his income earning potential would never be as high as it could be as he would not be in the starting line-up as much, as his appearances were rationed to save him as he got older for key matches. 

I have no evidence for this potential situation, but it is a hypothetical reason why bonuses for goals isn''t the answer others may feel it could be, especially when the player involved is getting on a bit.

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[quote user="xymox"] I would risk paying the demands within reason but McNally hasnt called me for advice lately.[/quote]

No need mate as Bowkett has advice on such matters from one of our fellow posters.[:P]

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The main issues for me are:-

Will he stay anyway,even with a change of manager? Wee don''t really know who his issues are with.

How rigid is the clubs wage/bonus structure and is it worth breaking it to retain him for the foreseeable future?

Lastly who would we replace him with and how much would it cost us, considering that saints have just paid £6m for rodriguez?

Personally I would break the wage structure to keep him here and happy but I fear it may be too late already for that.

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[quote user="Rivvo"]Personally I would break the wage structure to keep him here and happy but I fear it may be too late already for that.[/quote]No, no, no, no, no......It''s decisions like this that can throw sides into financial disaster and cause squad upset.If players aren''t happy with the max wage within our structure then they need to move on, simple as.Frankly I find it hilarious (and equally frustrating) that someone has the gall to complain about getting 15k a week for kicking a footy around.

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Rivvo"]Personally I would break the wage structure to keep him here and happy but I fear it may be too late already for that.[/quote]
No, no, no, no, no......

It''s decisions like this that can throw sides into financial disaster and cause squad upset.

If players aren''t happy with the max wage within our structure then they need to move on, simple as.

Frankly I find it hilarious (and equally frustrating) that someone has the gall to complain about getting 15k a week for kicking a footy around.
[/quote]

 

Agree totally, Indy. No good would become of such a move, certainly in the medium to long term.

 

In any case, we''ve been told by those in the know that Holt''s beef is not about the money. Now I for one do not buy that, but just hypothetically, let''s take that at face value . There are a whole plethora of  alternative gripes he may have, but whatever, it would doubtless mean making changes behind the scenes that suit him. And then what happens when the next thing that irks him shows up ? Also, is he going to be 100% committed to NCFC ? So much of Grant Holt''s game is based on wholehearted committment /effort, does anyone seriously think that he will be as effective a striker next season if he''s not giving 110% to the cause ?

 

I know this is not a popular view, and I''m going to get pilloried for it, but, at this stage in Norwich''s Prem existance, a line needs to be drawn in the sand. Unless a compromise can be found and, more importantly Hughton is fully convinced that Holt is behind the team fully, then should we be offered  £4m plus, then I''d take it . I have every faith in Hughton that he can find a replacement within that budget.

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If Holts grievance was about non-monetary issues why would he be wanting to join up again with a manager who at least failed to address those issues for him and at worst could have been the cause?

The only explanation I can conceive is that Lambert and Holt had the same issues with another party which points to their line manager, the CEO. But this doesn''t resonate with Lambert''s remote stance with players and he didn''t seem to show Holt any favouritism.

It''s about time the air was cleared on this.

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Then again we have been frequently told by his agent it isnt about the money of course...........................................although money is always important. Go figure.

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[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]. It''s about time the air was cleared on this.[/quote]

 

Quite so, Rudolph. The trouble is that as long as people are operating megaphone diplomacy (eg tweeting), the air is going to be further clouded, not cleared.

 

The best we can hope for is that now CH is beginning his first full week as manager, he can hold some "clear the air" talks with ALL parties concerned, and from what I''ve seen he looks like the sort of bloke who''s not afraid to bang heads together if necessary. If this is likely to happen then Holt, his agent, Mc N, and all the other interested parties need to switch off their phones /Ipads and SHUT THE F*CK UP. I''m sure if the problem is as simple as it''s being claimed then a new boss should be able to come to some sort of deal. The worst case scenario is that this rumbles on into July and it causes further unrest.

 

Basically it''s not hjust a case of the air being cleared. It needs to be sorted one way or the other. And soon.

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Don''t know if its blind faith but my gut instinct is that Hughton will recognise we can''t afford to lose him particularly as he will probably end up contributing someone in a similar section of the league. He will get everyone around the table and hopefully something can be sorted.

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Holt handed in a transfer request, the next day McNally tweeted that the club had a policy in which they dealt with out of contract players first, then players with an optional year at the end of their contracts and lastly players who want to negotiate whilst they still have time to run on their present contract. At the time of Holt''s transfer request, according to McNally we were still in the first phase which would imply that if Holt did want to talk about his contract, he would have to wait. We then heard from Holt''s agent who said that when they requested another year McNally said Holt was too old, and that when Holt handed in his transfer request McNally said that he wouldn''t lose sleep over it. The significant part of all this for me though which many people fail to mention so correct me if I''m wrong, but I''m sure Holt''s agent said that McNally did actually get back to them to offer the contract that Holt and his agent had requested but by that time the "damage had been done". So possibly if this is the case, the whole ''it''s not all about the money'' argument comes from the fact that it wasn''t the inital rejection of the improved contract which makes Holt want to leave tghe club but maybe McNally''s attitude? This would then tie in with how Holt was actually offered his contract in the end once other players had been dealt with, but by that time the "damage had been done".

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Even if it is blind faith I''d rather go with that than keep finding scenarios that we can''t get back from. And anyway Holt''s record, which is phenomenal, has earnt him that faith from me.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Even if it is blind faith I''d rather go with that than keep finding scenarios that we can''t get back from. And anyway Holt''s record, which is phenomenal, has earnt him that faith from me.

 

 

[/quote]


What''s a 31 year old Holt worth to another team? £5m max?  What''s he worth to us?  Even taking away his goals, it could be as much as 10 points, so over £10m, but it''s difficult to put a value on it. We need to keep him at the club.

 

Even if we could replace Holt''s 15 goals, that''s only part of the story, we''ll not replace the rest.

 

I know it''s certainly not a 1 man show, but no-one should underestimate what Holt brings to the team.  Without him, it will be a massive struggle to stay up.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Even if it is blind faith I''d rather go with that than keep finding scenarios that we can''t get back from. And anyway Holt''s record, which is phenomenal, has earnt him that faith from me.

 

 

[/quote]

Likewise from me Mr. Nutty.   Holt just may have been the difference between success and failure over the last three seasons.   Maybe more important than the manager.    If Holt had not been here we may still have been languishing in Div 1. 

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I am pretty sure that D Mac would want to keep all of this out of Social media, however once someone puts it into the public arena as Holt/Agent did he has a right to respond if only to stop the rumours.

As I have said on other threads no one should try to manipulate the clubs hand by "getting in" first on heresay and rumour.

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]

 

Even if we could replace Holt''s 15 goals, that''s only part of the story, we''ll not replace the rest.

 

I know it''s certainly not a 1 man show, but no-one should underestimate what Holt brings to the team.  Without him, it will be a massive struggle to stay up.

[/quote]

 

So what you are, in effect saying, NBS, that even if Holt stays, and is badly injured (eg broken leg)  in Sept , we''ve got very little chance of avoiding relegation ? !    Not a very positive situation.

 

Don''t get me wrong.....Grant Holt has been absolutely phenomenal for this club over the last few years, and I''d love him to still be a NCFC player in Aug. But not, as some are suggesting ,at any cost. The king of club Norwich is cannot afford to lose a top goal getter, it''s true; but equally it cannot afford to lose the great togetherness and team spirit that''s been engendered during PL''s tenure . There simply cannot be a "them and us" culture, and I''m really concerned that with all this tweeting of claim and counter-claim going on, that''s precisely what we''re heading for. That said, I''ve every faith in Hughton to nip it in the bud.

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[quote user="Eric Pickles Pie Supplier"][quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]

 

Even if we could replace Holt''s 15 goals, that''s only part of the story, we''ll not replace the rest.

 

I know it''s certainly not a 1 man show, but no-one should underestimate what Holt brings to the team.  Without him, it will be a massive struggle to stay up.

[/quote]

 

So what you are, in effect saying, NBS, that even if Holt stays, and is badly injured (eg broken leg)  in Sept , we''ve got very little chance of avoiding relegation ? !    Not a very positive situation.

 

Don''t get me wrong.....Grant Holt has been absolutely phenomenal for this club over the last few years, and I''d love him to still be a NCFC player in Aug. But not, as some are suggesting ,at any cost. The king of club Norwich is cannot afford to lose a top goal getter, it''s true; but equally it cannot afford to lose the great togetherness and team spirit that''s been engendered during PL''s tenure . There simply cannot be a "them and us" culture, and I''m really concerned that with all this tweeting of claim and counter-claim going on, that''s precisely what we''re heading for. That said, I''ve every faith in Hughton to nip it in the bud.

[/quote]

 

So who''s who''s creating the "them and us" culture? Is it Holt? Or McNally? Or more likely both? Trouble is, whatever happens, McNally''s job is to sort it rather than win it. The longer it goes on the less chance of any winners.

 

 

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[quote user="Eric Pickles Pie Supplier"][quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]

 

Even if we could replace Holt''s 15 goals, that''s only part of the story, we''ll not replace the rest.

 

I know it''s certainly not a 1 man show, but no-one should underestimate what Holt brings to the team.  Without him, it will be a massive struggle to stay up.

[/quote]

 

So what you are, in effect saying, NBS, that even if Holt stays, and is badly injured (eg broken leg)  in Sept , we''ve got very little chance of avoiding relegation ? !    Not a very positive situation.

 

Don''t get me wrong.....Grant Holt has been absolutely phenomenal for this club over the last few years, and I''d love him to still be a NCFC player in Aug. But not, as some are suggesting ,at any cost. The king of club Norwich is cannot afford to lose a top goal getter, it''s true; but equally it cannot afford to lose the great togetherness and team spirit that''s been engendered during PL''s tenure . There simply cannot be a "them and us" culture, and I''m really concerned that with all this tweeting of claim and counter-claim going on, that''s precisely what we''re heading for. That said, I''ve every faith in Hughton to nip it in the bud.

[/quote]

 

NO!  What I am saying is, without Holt it will be a lot harder to stay up.  His worth to the team is a lot more than a 31 year old centre forward who scored 15 league goals.

 

I certainly don''t agree with the way Holt''s gone about it and no I don''t think the club should be held to ransom, but equally I think you can deduce from this that McNally recognises the value of Holt to the team and the impact his loss would have -

 

McNally, however, said none of City’s first team squad, Holt included, was for sale.

“I’m delighted he’s loved it here. We’ve loved every moment of Grant Holt being here – 70 goals in three seasons,” said McNally.

“Every level of football he’s played at, he’s scored goals - 17 goals last season, 15 in the Premier League, a couple of Cup goals thrown in, what a fantastic performance from our captain, our talisman, the fans’ hero. He’s won the player of the year three years in succession. That’s never been done here at this marvellous football club.

“He’s not for sale, not for sale. If ever hypothetically you were forced into a position to sell somebody with such a record, what’s the replacement cost? It’s certainly bigger than the total budget I’ve seen quoted in relation to the club that Paul Lambert might be talking to, for new money this year.

“It would be a huge figure. But I stress, for all the Norwich City supporters out there, Grant Holt is not for sale.”

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

So who''s who''s creating the "them and us" culture? Is it Holt? Or McNally? Or more likely both? Trouble is, whatever happens, McNally''s job is to sort it rather than win it. The longer it goes on the less chance of any winners.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Spot on Nutty. And I agree with your last sentence totally.

 

That''s why, as I say, it''s time that all people shut up and we use the period of grace provided by a new manager coming in wisely. Hughton, as I say, is the kind of bloke who will see the bigger picture and be in a position to sort things out . But by the same token, whilst recognising the contribution Holt could still make to the club, he too will not be an "at any cost" man.

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Agree about this "them" and "us" idea. Is it true that Holt was in fact offered his 3 years after the initial arguments but turned it down because too much damage had been done? If so then it has become personal and Hughton could have a massive job on his hands.

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Grant Holt''s star is now tainted and even if he stays he will not be the same GH we''ve come to love.McNally and the owners have made a massive mistake by pushing Paul Lambert and Grant Holt out under a cloud and it will come back to bite them next season.The geese that laid the golden eggs are dead.... slaughtered for the sake of saving a few measly pounds.

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For me I think we now have the best opportunity to resolve this matter and hopefully keep Holt.

Hughton can now speak to Holt and (unfortunately) his agent and address what ever the problem is and hopefully reach an agreement. The fact that Houghton is a "new party" to discussions will allow both Holt and McNally to move on their positions without losing face i.e. McNally can justify on the basis that he wanted to be as flexible as possilbe to assist the new Manager and Holt can be flexible on the basis he liked what Hughton said and was keen to work with him.

Potentially  a win/win and despite current feelings I am sure the majority of fans will be pleased if Holt stays and the remaining will forget about it once a couple of goals go in.

If this doesnt happen then we will have to move on and go again ;) with a new striker!

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[quote user="Cluck Nose."]Grant Holt''s star is now tainted and even if he stays he will not be the same GH we''ve come to love.

McNally and the owners have made a massive mistake by pushing Paul Lambert and Grant Holt out under a cloud and it will come back to bite them next season.

The geese that laid the golden eggs are dead.... slaughtered for the sake of saving a few measly pounds.


[/quote]

 

What?  Lambert and Holt have been pushed out?  How do you come to reckon on that then?[:^)]  Not forgetting Paul''s "wobble" last summer and the board managing to persuade him to stay on improved terms.

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="rock bus"]

For me I think we now have the best opportunity to resolve this matter and hopefully keep Holt.

Hughton can now speak to Holt and (unfortunately) his agent and address what ever the problem is and hopefully reach an agreement. The fact that Houghton is a "new party" to discussions will allow both Holt and McNally to move on their positions without losing face i.e. McNally can justify on the basis that he wanted to be as flexible as possilbe to assist the new Manager and Holt can be flexible on the basis he liked what Hughton said and was keen to work with him.

Potentially  a win/win and despite current feelings I am sure the majority of fans will be pleased if Holt stays and the remaining will forget about it once a couple of goals go in.

If this doesnt happen then we will have to move on and go again ;) with a new striker!

[/quote]

I hope you''re right  rocky, trouble is the Lee  Payne may have pushed things to far in the wrong direction.   Holt is a loveable, down to earth character and this is totally out of character.   He needs to get better advice.  Quickly.

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[quote user="Cluck Nose."]The geese that laid the golden eggs are dead.... slaughtered for the sake of saving a few measly pounds.


[/quote]

If only it was as simple as that, Cluck. Believe me, if you look at the bigger picture that could grow out of this scenario, it''d involve a hell of a lot more than "a few measly pounds".

 

And, in what way was Lambert "pushed out" ?  He was approached by Aston Villa FC (some may say illegally), he tendered his resignation, and within a few hours pitched up at Villa Pk.

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[quote user="Alan_Grey"][quote user="ricky knight"]never heard of him mate. Definately not my source, interesting he has the same idea though.[/quote]He''s a Sun football journalist and Norwich City fan. And just to make a small point, if he was the source for whoever your source is, then that makes him your source. I''d play safe and assume he is, otherwise this is the trap that embellishes rumours, where it appears there are two independent sources but there aren''t really.[/quote]

What are you on about mate, hard it may be for you to understand but i do have pals in football circles and we do chat about football and City and during one of these chats Holt came up and his reasons for having the hump, what i stated earlier was what i was told by a very good source, not the current bun, it just makes me feel that what my buddy told me might be true, as this reporter backs it up.

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[quote user="Cluck Nose."]Grant Holt''s star is now tainted and even if he stays he will not be the same GH we''ve come to love.McNally and the owners have made a massive mistake by pushing Paul Lambert and Grant Holt out under a cloud and it will come back to bite them next season.The geese that laid the golden eggs are dead.... slaughtered for the sake of saving a few measly pounds.

[/quote]

 

Lambert was pushed out? How exactly? We rejected his resignation and stopped him talking to Villa. That is a club desperate to keep their manager not pushing him away. Lambert thinks he has seen a big opportunity present itself, like the Norwich job did when he was at Colchester. Once that seed was planted their was only ever going to be one outcome. No matter how hard the board or the club fought.

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Probably been mentioned a few times but Calderwood is now number two at Carrow Road and had a big falling out with Holt at Forest, surely adding more feeling to his desire to leave. Found the story on Forest message boards and some striking similarities with the case here currently. I found the closing comments about Holts ability at the end of the post amusing!

He was disappointed not to be first choice at the

start of Colin Calderwood''s reign in 2006-2007 (though he found himself

called from the bench within 3 minutes of the start of the season when

Nathan Tyson was injured), and spent a period when his heart didn''t seem

entirely in it. This didn''t manifest itself on the field of play,

particularly - Holt only seems to know one way to play, which is

whole-heartedly - but in the fact that he asked to be informed if any

other club made enquiries. Bristol City duly did so at Christmas 2006

and it looked as though he''d be off, but at the last minute he declined

the move, citing the fact that his wife was settled in Nottingham.

None the less, by now the perception had arisen

that either the club didn''t want him or he was looking for an exit, or

possibly both; he duly submitted a transfer request in the Summer of

2007... which was promptly rejected. The reality seems to be that he had

a role to play but couldn''t expect to be automatic first choice when

everyone was fit and available. For a while Holt seemed happy with that.

The 2007-2008 Season was in marked contrast,

however. Colin Calderwood had the side playing a 4-3-3 (or 4-5-1,

depending on how optimistic you were feeling) formation, with Holt

frequently tried in a wide forward role in which he was, frankly, pants.

His star waned and he became mardy (take your pick about the order in

which this happened). The crisis point arrived in March 2008, when Holt

and Junior Agogo were hauled off at half time after an abject 45 minutes

at Roots Hall - the fact that they were (successfully) replaced by the

teenage Matt Thornhill and a 60% fit Nathan Tyson tells you how poorly

they''d been playing. Rumours abounded of Holt trying to hit the manager

on the training field, though these have never been substantiated - and

Holt was out on loan at Blackpool within days.

In the summer of 2008 he signed for League 2''s

Shrewsbury Town, thus returning to his true level; even a fit and

interested Grant Holt (something Forest fans hadn''t seen for the best

part of a season before his departure) was never going to be good enough

for the Championship.

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