Talk about England?

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]

Rooney - on top form - is probably one of the best players in the world.  The trouble is he hasn''t been on top form for his country in eight years. Even at Manure he isn''t often on top form these days.  Yet he should  at his age be approaching his peak.   He looks to me ''burnt out''.    He certainly hasn''t performed this last week. 

 

 

 

[/quote]

Standing on the first tee at my local golf course, I can guarantee that, nine times out of ten my drive will go straight down the middle. Put me on the first tee at the Belfry, one of two things will almost certainly happen - the ball will finish 50 yards in front of my feet or, more likely, well to the right in the trees/deep undergrowth. Special footballers are the ones that make a significant difference on the big occasion. It is all very well scoring hat-tricks against the likes of Blackburn and Bolton, for example (very commendable). But the really great players rise to a new level on the highest stage. I will leave it to everyone else to form a view whether or not Rooney has been able to do that.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Jacko"]

[quote user="Indy"]Milan Baros won the golden boot at the last Euro''s , he''s gone onto win the europeen cup, success domestically in England, Czech Rep and Turkey, but I don''t class him as World Class, Perhaps we should, Liniker and Baros are world class![/quote]

Stop putting words into my mouth Indy. I am merely disputing your claim he is just "a good Premiership footballer." Lineker has scored goals where ever he has been. I think if you ask most people scoring 281 goals in 568 games at a rate of in 1 in 2 is the bench mark of an outstanding player rather just a good one. To compare Linker to Milan Baros when he hasn''t had anything like the club career Lineker has had is farcical. You are just making yourself look silly. I have never stated anywhere that I deemed Lineker to be world class. As we have established about 5 different people on this thread alone have a differing interpretation of what that is and they have also been perfectly justifiable opinions.

[/quote]

 

A useful definition I came across years ago was this, in terms of European players. Would you genuinely consider them at any particular time for inclusion in a European Select Eleven? If so, even if they didn''t make the final eleven, then you could regard them as world class.

[/quote]

 

An irrelevant argument. The words "world class" used about an individual do not make him play any better. It''s a bit like telling a racehorse he''s the hot favourite to win a race. Pointless.

[Jacko 0]

Really don''t understand where you are going with that one Webbo. Could you please expand?

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Jacko"]

Really don''t understand where you are going with that one Webbo. Could you please expand?

[/quote]

 

The term "world class" is subjective, open to countless opinions and of no value to anyone. Perhaps you could give me your criteria for deciding if a player is "world class".

[Indy 3,283]

That was my point from the off.....media, Shearer and other are of the opinion he is World Class and is a must start for England....I don''t hold that opinion.

 

Subjective or not, surely World class is best in the world, Rooney is not that, we had a glimpse 8 years ago but he has never lived up to the billing the media build him up with.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Indy"]

That was my point from the off.....media, Shearer and other are of the opinion he is World Class and is a must start for England....I don''t hold that opinion.

 

Subjective or not, surely World class is best in the world, Rooney is not that, we had a glimpse 8 years ago but he has never lived up to the billing the media build him up with.

[/quote]

 

If your definition is correct and accepted, I assume you are saying that there is only one "world class" player in each position or even only one "world class" player on the planet.

[GJP 79]

Last night England would have been better with Welbeck and Carroll upfront. Both lively and both match sharp - something Rooney has not been.

 

But that''s not to say Rooney isn''t a fantastic player because he really is. And I can understand why Roy picked him - because if you want to do anything you have to have your best players out there.

 

Go back to our 3-0 defeat at home to Liverpool. We''re playing Liverpool at home and we left our captain and top goalscorer on the bench. Playing against Liverpool is the kind of thing you dream about, even if it isn''t one of their great sides. But what message does it send out if you''ve left Holt on the bench?

 

If Rooney is match fit then it''s hard to overlook him because he can do so much for you.

 

Hopefully England will continue to improve over the next couple of years and when the next World Cup comes around Rooney will come up a big performance for his country.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="GJP"]

Last night England would have been better with Welbeck and Carroll upfront. Both lively and both match sharp - something Rooney has not been.

 

But that''s not to say Rooney isn''t a fantastic player because he really is. And I can understand why Roy picked him - because if you want to do anything you have to have your best players out there.

 

Go back to our 3-0 defeat at home to Liverpool. We''re playing Liverpool at home and we left our captain and top goalscorer on the bench. Playing against Liverpool is the kind of thing you dream about, even if it isn''t one of their great sides. But what message does it send out if you''ve left Holt on the bench?

 

If Rooney is match fit then it''s hard to overlook him because he can do so much for you.

 

Hopefully England will continue to improve over the next couple of years and when the next World Cup comes around Rooney will come up a big performance for his country.

[/quote]

 

But does being "fantastic" make you so-called "world class"?

[ricky knight 0]

Rooney has had no influence on a tournament for 8 yrs, his performances in Euro finals for Man U are not good, he scores in clusters against weaker opposition he is a very good prem player world class no chance.

Hodgsons tactics is dont concede whatever it takes, try nick a goal, might be ok in group matches but KO Stages surely you must go out to try and win the game we were out numbered in the middle of the park he did nothing to stop it.

Peronally i would have gone 4-5-1 with Walcott and OX Outlets out wide, two holding so Gerrard could get forward to create, played Carroll up front( dont really rate him but he was there) so he was the target to bring in the pacy widemen or hold it till gerrard could help, last nite everytime he got it he was isolated. Yes no Rooney but Ramsey dropped Greaves in 66 what happened. Yes its a matter of opinions but at least we could give it a go not defend on our own goal line nearly.

[Jacko 0]

[quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="Indy"]

That was my point from the off.....media, Shearer and other are of the opinion he is World Class and is a must start for England....I don''t hold that opinion.

 

Subjective or not, surely World class is best in the world, Rooney is not that, we had a glimpse 8 years ago but he has never lived up to the billing the media build him up with.

[/quote]

 

If your definition is correct and accepted, I assume you are saying that there is only one "world class" player in each position or even only one "world class" player on the planet.

[/quote]

This demonstrates my point. How do you define it? I honestly don''t know. As I said earlier in the thread. There is for me a tier which comprises only Ronaldo and Messi. Then there is a second tier with the likes of Silva, Aguero, Xavi and Iniesta. I honestly believe Rooney deserves to be regarded as being in the middle of that second tier somewhere. He may not be as good as some of the names mentioned but he is certainly in that bracket for me. Whether of not that makes him world class I have no idea. Is that a fair call Indy? If you do agree with that statement. Putting Lineker back into the mixer would agree that if he was playing today he would also be regarded as part of that second tier. Particularly during his Barcelona days.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="ricky knight"]Rooney has had no influence on a tournament for 8 yrs, his performances in Euro finals for Man U are not good, he scores in clusters against weaker opposition he is a very good prem player world class no chance. Hodgsons tactics is dont concede whatever it takes, try nick a goal, might be ok in group matches but KO Stages surely you must go out to try and win the game we were out numbered in the middle of the park he did nothing to stop it. Peronally i would have gone 4-5-1 with Walcott and OX Outlets out wide, two holding so Gerrard could get forward to create, played Carroll up front( dont really rate him but he was there) so he was the target to bring in the pacy widemen or hold it till gerrard could help, last nite everytime he got it he was isolated. Yes no Rooney but Ramsey dropped Greaves in 66 what happened. Yes its a matter of opinions but at least we could give it a go not defend on our own goal line nearly.[/quote]

 

Then when we lose poor old Roy gets crucified because he hasn''t played his "best player" 

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Jacko"]

[quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="Indy"]

That was my point from the off.....media, Shearer and other are of the opinion he is World Class and is a must start for England....I don''t hold that opinion.

 

Subjective or not, surely World class is best in the world, Rooney is not that, we had a glimpse 8 years ago but he has never lived up to the billing the media build him up with.

[/quote]

 

If your definition is correct and accepted, I assume you are saying that there is only one "world class" player in each position or even only one "world class" player on the planet.

[/quote]

This demonstrates my point. How do you define it? I honestly don''t know. As I said earlier in the thread. There is for me a tier which comprises only Ronaldo and Messi. Then there is a second tier with the likes of Silva, Aguero, Xavi and Iniesta. I honestly believe Rooney deserves to be regarded as being in the middle of that second tier somewhere. He may not be as good as some of the names mentioned but he is certainly in that bracket for me. Whether of not that makes him world class I have no idea. Is that a fair call Indy? If you do agree with that statement. Putting Lineker back into the mixer would agree that if he was playing today he would also be regarded as part of that second tier. Particularly during his Barcelona days.

[/quote]

 

And that demonstrates my point. You can''t define it so it is pointless using the term. As I said before, as pointless as telling a racehorse before the race that he''s the hot favourite.

[Jacko 0]

Geoff Hurst wasn''t exactly a clogger who just happened to strike it lucky against Germany. He got 27 goals for West Ham that season. If you were to drop Rooney we didnt exactly have a player of that quality waiting in the wings. Hodgson did the right thing for me. Our only realistic chance of advancing deep into this tournament was to play Rooney and hope he fired. You wouldn''t have acheived anything playing Carroll and Welbeck in tandem for me. The performance against Sweden was just as laboured and unconvincing as the others.

[Jacko 0]

[quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="Jacko"]

[quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="Indy"]

That was my point from the off.....media, Shearer and other are of the opinion he is World Class and is a must start for England....I don''t hold that opinion.

 

Subjective or not, surely World class is best in the world, Rooney is not that, we had a glimpse 8 years ago but he has never lived up to the billing the media build him up with.

[/quote]

 

If your definition is correct and accepted, I assume you are saying that there is only one "world class" player in each position or even only one "world class" player on the planet.

[/quote]

This demonstrates my point. How do you define it? I honestly don''t know. As I said earlier in the thread. There is for me a tier which comprises only Ronaldo and Messi. Then there is a second tier with the likes of Silva, Aguero, Xavi and Iniesta. I honestly believe Rooney deserves to be regarded as being in the middle of that second tier somewhere. He may not be as good as some of the names mentioned but he is certainly in that bracket for me. Whether of not that makes him world class I have no idea. Is that a fair call Indy? If you do agree with that statement. Putting Lineker back into the mixer would agree that if he was playing today he would also be regarded as part of that second tier. Particularly during his Barcelona days.

[/quote]

 

And that demonstrates my point. You can''t define it so it is pointless using the term. As I said before, as pointless as telling a racehorse before the race that he''s the hot favourite.

[/quote]

It seems like were in agreement then.

[whoareyou? 0]

Carroll was useless at holding the ball up in the games he played. Our strikers are the weak link in the team and until we can improve their or Rooney hits a purple patch at International level, we will never be more than quarter finalists.

[T 190]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18579009

"There are 34,790 coaches in Germany holding Uefa''s B, A and Pro badges compared to 23,995 in Spain and 2,769 in England."

Truly schocking stats. Going on about managers, formations or players is completely missing the fundamental problem.

[Jacko 0]

[quote user="T"]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18579009

"There are 34,790 coaches in Germany holding Uefa''s B, A and Pro badges compared to 23,995 in Spain and 2,769 in England."

Truly schocking stats. Going on about managers, formations or players is completely missing the fundamental problem.

[/quote]

Its been mentioned in the thread a fair bit. I didn''t really understand the point of spending £760 odd million on national stadium we didnt need when it could have all gone towards developing these levels of coaches.

[ricky knight 0]

[quote user="Webbo118"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]Rooney has had no influence on a tournament for 8 yrs, his performances in Euro finals for Man U are not good, he scores in clusters against weaker opposition he is a very good prem player world class no chance. Hodgsons tactics is dont concede whatever it takes, try nick a goal, might be ok in group matches but KO Stages surely you must go out to try and win the game we were out numbered in the middle of the park he did nothing to stop it. Peronally i would have gone 4-5-1 with Walcott and OX Outlets out wide, two holding so Gerrard could get forward to create, played Carroll up front( dont really rate him but he was there) so he was the target to bring in the pacy widemen or hold it till gerrard could help, last nite everytime he got it he was isolated. Yes no Rooney but Ramsey dropped Greaves in 66 what happened. Yes its a matter of opinions but at least we could give it a go not defend on our own goal line nearly.[/quote]

 

Then when we lose poor old Roy gets crucified because he hasn''t played his "best player" 

[/quote]

But who says he is our best player, he was not fit it was obvious to the world so what were the staff looking at in training. Sometimes you have to be brave like Ramsey in 66, he got loads of crticism for leaving out Greaves playing without recognised wingers but won the world cup still our only trophy.

[Jacko 0]

As I said earlier. When the man (Hurst) you are replacing him with got 27 goals that season for West Ham in the top flight the decision is much easier to make. When the alternative is Carroll who weighed in with 9 all season then its a bit harder to justify.

[BroadstairsR 2,135]

[quote user="Jacko"]

[quote user="T"]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18579009

"There are 34,790 coaches in Germany holding Uefa''s B, A and Pro badges compared to 23,995 in Spain and 2,769 in England."

Truly schocking stats. Going on about managers, formations or players is completely missing the fundamental problem.

[/quote]

Its been mentioned in the thread a fair bit. I didn''t really understand the point of spending £760 odd million on national stadium we didnt need when it could have all gone towards developing these levels of coaches.

[/quote]

 

The original Wembley (The Empire Stadium) was built in 1923 and had become grossly inadequate. Re-building was long overdue and essential. Not very spectator friendly, IMO.

 

In retrospect if we had have known about the Olympic Games then the main stadium there could then have become the National Football Stadium with the original Wembley site sold off to finance youth development. Better everything, including transport links etc.

 

This seems obvious to the layman, but there are probably dozens of reasons against apart from the fact that the Olympic "concession" came a few years later.

[Yellow Wal 314]

Perhaps we should look on the bright side ..... going out on penalties was unlucky ......... but it has possibly saved us from humiliation at the hands of the Germans as could easily have happened.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="GJP"]

Last night England would have been better with Welbeck and Carroll upfront. Both lively and both match sharp - something Rooney has not been.

 

But that''s not to say Rooney isn''t a fantastic player because he really is. And I can understand why Roy picked him - because if you want to do anything you have to have your best players out there.

 

Go back to our 3-0 defeat at home to Liverpool. We''re playing Liverpool at home and we left our captain and top goalscorer on the bench. Playing against Liverpool is the kind of thing you dream about, even if it isn''t one of their great sides. But what message does it send out if you''ve left Holt on the bench?

 

If Rooney is match fit then it''s hard to overlook him because he can do so much for you.

 

Hopefully England will continue to improve over the next couple of years and when the next World Cup comes around Rooney will come up a big performance for his country.

[/quote]

 

But does being "fantastic" make you so-called "world class"?

[/quote]

Well, I was trying to avoid being drawn into the "world class" argument.

 

What I would say is that to lead the line for Man Utd you must surely be up there as Man Utd are a massive club that compete for all major trophies. You''d think that their main attacking threat must be a "world class" type of player.

[Jacko 0]

Did we need a national stadium? I was quite happy with the idea of England games touring around the country. It meant various regions got to see England without travelling miles to do it and we had a variety of excellent stadiums to showcase the games in. Old Trafford, The Ethiad, Emirates, Stadium of Light, St James etc are all worthy of hosting internationals in my opinion.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="ricky knight"] his performances in Euro finals for Man U are not good, . [/quote]

He had a very good game against Barca the last time round in the final and scored an excellent goal.

 

But don''t let that get in the way of trying to make your point.

[ricky knight 0]

[quote user="Jacko"]

As I said earlier. When the man (Hurst) you are replacing him with got 27 goals that season for West Ham in the top flight the decision is much easier to make. When the alternative is Carroll who weighed in with 9 all season then its a bit harder to justify.

[/quote]

But Ramsey still made the decision to drop the best ever goalscorer of that era and still one of the best ever imo against press and public demand when it would have been easier to bring Greaves back in, Remember Carroll had scored a very good goal was feeling confident then was dropped for Rooney. BTW I am not a Carroll fan felt Holt was a better option and had earned a place.Bringing in Rooney was not justified imo and so it proved with two inept performances.

[unique 434]

[quote user="GJP"]

Last night England would have been better with Welbeck and Carroll upfront. Both lively and both match sharp - something Rooney has not been.

 

But that''s not to say Rooney isn''t a fantastic player because he really is. And I can understand why Roy picked him - because if you want to do anything you have to have your best players out there.

 

Go back to our 3-0 defeat at home to Liverpool. We''re playing Liverpool at home and we left our captain and top goalscorer on the bench. Playing against Liverpool is the kind of thing you dream about, even if it isn''t one of their great sides. But what message does it send out if you''ve left Holt on the bench?

 

If Rooney is match fit then it''s hard to overlook him because he can do so much for you.

 

Hopefully England will continue to improve over the next couple of years and when the next World Cup comes around Rooney will come up a big performance for his country.

[/quote]

I wouldn''t hold your breath.........

Check where the next World Cup is being hosted.....possession will be key, therefore England have absolutely NO chance of making a mark in the next major tournament.

Bring back the Home Internationals....and only then might we scrape into the last four of a minor competition....

[Phillip J Fry 0]

Lets not forget about St. George''s park. Whilst it won''t be a cure to all the nations problems, it will provide a ''proper'' coaching school for future coaches and will also provide consistent coaching for every single level of the England national team. Hopefully St. George''s park, along with the changes at grass root level youth football that are going to be implemented soon, will help the national team considerably. 

Too bad were thirty years or so behind most other major European nations in establishing stuff like this...

St George''s Park: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_George''s_Park_National_Football_Centre

Changes of youth development: http://www.thefa.com/my-football/player/youth-football/youth-development-review

[Orford65 0]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"][quote user="Jacko"]

[quote user="T"]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18579009

"There are 34,790 coaches in Germany holding Uefa''s B, A and Pro badges compared to 23,995 in Spain and 2,769 in England."

Truly schocking stats. Going on about managers, formations or players is completely missing the fundamental problem.

[/quote]

Its been mentioned in the thread a fair bit. I didn''t really understand the point of spending £760 odd million on national stadium we didnt need when it could have all gone towards developing these levels of coaches.

[/quote]

 

The original Wembley (The Empire Stadium) was built in 1923 and had become grossly inadequate. Re-building was long overdue and essential. Not very spectator friendly, IMO.

 

In retrospect if we had have known about the Olympic Games then the main stadium there could then have become the National Football Stadium with the original Wembley site sold off to finance youth development. Better everything, including transport links etc.

 

This seems obvious to the layman, but there are probably dozens of reasons against apart from the fact that the Olympic "concession" came a few years later.

[/quote]

The new National Football Centre of Excellence(St.George''s Park) near Burton on Trent has now been all but completed and should be up and running later this year. As well as providing excellent facilities to accomodate and train our national teams at every age level, it''s main purpose as far as I understand it is to vastly increase the number of qualified coaches and to ensure those coaches are performing at the very highest level to produce youngsters who can actually control, pass and are comfortable on the ball - and about bloody time as well!Having followed my grandson through junior football for the last ten years from the age of eight I can fully endorse the scenario of well-meaning but hopeless coaches, backed up by ignorant and badly behaved parents. How any of these kids ever make decent footballers is beyond me -  and, of course, the majority of them dont and end up playing with a hangover for a pub team on a Sunday morning, when some of them could have possibly done so much better.

[Yellowbeagle 0]

I think Hodgson did pretty well with what he had this tournament. Maybe it''s a good thing most people are being more realistic about the level of player in this country. Rooney is imo hugely overrated, and always has been, thats not his fault thats the fact the media and country have to have an individual to pin their hopes on. 

 

But we have a massive problem looming on how we are going to compete attacking wise, Carroll is always fighting with the ball for control and wrestling the opposition as they try to tackle him, sometimes a decent club player but nothing more, unless he develops his game massively. Wellbeck and Sturridge are players that you would hope are 3rd and 4th choice international strikers. For the midfield we had better hope Wiltshire isnt damaged goods and Chamberlain fulfills his potential. Hoping some really good attacking players and more technically gifted midfielders will be just around the corner in the youth teams across the county because we are really going to need them.

[smooth 114]

Coaching and grassroots is appauling, our facilities are disgraceful... our best players don''t even make first 11 in our top flight teams at a domestic level.We really our so wide off the mark in regard of bringing young talent through. 50metre swimming pools, we have a handful... cycling velodrome, 2?... tennis, well you have to train abroad... rugby is good but maybe because so few countries play the game.Football is a shambles, our country is third rate in our development... this new england facility is a waste and wembey stadium is actually not that impressive. Sterile and lame. I agree go around the country as they were... but now we have a team that Roy will get the best out of... but we aren''t that great.