Talk about England?

[Indy 3,296]

Unlike the media, I’m not happy with being knocked out by Italy in the quarter finals! Is that the mark of a successful tournament, if that is than Hodgson is not the man for the job!

 

Reasons I believe we lost and had a poor tournament are as follows.

 

1, we let them have all the time on the ball, never pressing the man (Lazy by Young, Rooney and Wellbeck).

 

2, Dropped so deep and allowed Italians to pick up the ball between the two banks of defenders! Why the hell did we not push up the field compress the area of play allowing the midfield to press for the ball!

 

3, Playing players out of form, Young was poor in all three games, no pace, no guile and no idea. Was like playing with 10 men for four games.

 

4, When we got a formation which looked like we could win matched with in the Sweden game, we changed back to cater for a tired and poor Rooney, The guy was totally unfit, from the 10^th minute onwards looked like he was going to collapse. There is no way on this earth he is WORLD CLASS, just a good pro.

 

5, Fitness levels were very poor, compared to all the teams we played we looked lethargic, second best, only for the last 30 minutes against Sweden did we look good.

 

6, A negative manager with a prefixed system and players, even if they didn’t perform were still preferred to attacking options.

 

7, English players are just not world class but solid also-rans, the same the Czech Republic, Sweden, Poland and other Europeans teams. We are never in the same league as the Germans, Italians and Spanish!

 

I don’t find it easy to accept being soundly beaten by one of the poorest Italian sides (just because they didn’t score doesn’t mean we weren’t soundly beaten). Why can’t we look to the Germans, they look good, mixture of youth and experience, combined with drive determination and expectation to win……..Klinsmann was almost laughing at just how poor we were last night!

 

Sad, sad times, I could have accepted going out giving it a good go, like we  did in 1990, 1996 but to go out on a whimper!!!!! Hodgson out, Harry in!

[Nuff Said 5,108]

Have you seen this?http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/725/ShowForum.aspx

[barclay seats 4849 0]

[quote user="Indy"]

Unlike the media, I’m not happy with being knocked out by Italy in the quarter finals! Is that the mark of a successful tournament, if that is than Hodgson is not the man for the job!

 

Reasons I believe we lost and had a poor tournament are as follows.

 

1, we let them have all the time on the ball, never pressing the man (Lazy by Young, Rooney and Wellbeck).

 

2, Dropped so deep and allowed Italians to pick up the ball between the two banks of defenders! Why the hell did we not push up the field compress the area of play allowing the midfield to press for the ball!

 

3, Playing players out of form, Young was poor in all three games, no pace, no guile and no idea. Was like playing with 10 men for four games.

 

4, When we got a formation which looked like we could win matched with in the Sweden game, we changed back to cater for a tired and poor Rooney, The guy was totally unfit, from the 10^th minute onwards looked like he was going to collapse. There is no way on this earth he is WORLD CLASS, just a good pro.

 

5, Fitness levels were very poor, compared to all the teams we played we looked lethargic, second best, only for the last 30 minutes against Sweden did we look good.

 

6, A negative manager with a prefixed system and players, even if they didn’t perform were still preferred to attacking options.

 

7, English players are just not world class but solid also-rans, the same the Czech Republic, Sweden, Poland and other Europeans teams. We are never in the same league as the Germans, Italians and Spanish!

 

I don’t find it easy to accept being soundly beaten by one of the poorest Italian sides (just because they didn’t score doesn’t mean we weren’t soundly beaten). Why can’t we look to the Germans, they look good, mixture of youth and experience, combined with drive determination and expectation to win……..Klinsmann was almost laughing at just how poor we were last night!

 

Sad, sad times, I could have accepted going out giving it a good go, like we  did in 1990, 1996 but to go out on a whimper!!!!! Hodgson out, Harry in!

[/quote]

WELL I AGREE !

BESIDES ,,, NOTHING NCFC TO TALK ABOUT ...............IS THERE ?

[Nuff Said 5,108]

No need to shout!

[AndyCanary 0]

I agree with every point you''ve made..However, this point:[quote user="Indy"]

7, English players are just not world class but solid also-rans, the same the Czech Republic, Sweden, Poland and other Europeans teams. We are never in the same league as the Germans, Italians and Spanish![/quote]

Totally undermines this:[quote user="Indy"] Unlike the media, I’m not happy with being knocked out by Italy in the quarter finals! Is that the mark of a successful tournament, if that is than Hodgson is not the man for the job![/quote]

[Aggy 753]

The first twenty five minutes or so last night, we were as good as, if not better than, the Italians. Why? We pushed high up the pitch. Balotelli got in behind a couple of times, but we also had three or four very good chances and used the ball well.

On around the half hour mark, for some reason we decided to drop thirty yards deeper and isolate the forwards/bring the forwards back as well. How many times did we see Welbeck or even Carroll playing at left back? That''s not how we should be setting up.

Until last night we had not caught anyone offside all tournament! If that''s not a sign of playing far too deep, I don''t know what is.

The defence was good last night. We just need a couple of players in the midfield who can keep possession. Wilshere back in is obviously one of those, but who else is coming through that can do that? Get someone else who can do the same sort of thing as Wilshere and we may have something very strong to build on. Whilst we were far inferior technically to Italy last night, let''s not forget that we drew with both France and Italy - who were probably third and fourth favourites before the tournament. Spain and Germany are miles and miles ahead, but had we taken one of the three or four chances we had against Italy in the first twenty minutes, then we would have now been in the semi finals - we weren''t beaten 7-0!

[T 190]

We were simply outclassed. It does not matter who the manager or system is we will never be able to compete unless there is a fundamental change in culture in this country.  Continental Europeans are much more community minded for some reason, hence there is a a much higher number of people who rather than just looking to blame someone else make the time and effort to become qualified coaches and coach kids in their spare time. Also, having coached at a junior level in another sport it seems that for some reason British kids just want to play rather than investing time working on their technique.  

[Tim Dawson 0]

Johnson instead of Richards, Henderson instead of Carrick, Downing instead of Johnson, Carroll instead of Holt, six players from an under achieving Liverpool team.

Personally delighted to see Hodgson fail miserably, roll on the new prem season.........,

[AndyCanary 0]

[quote user="Tim Dawson"]Johnson instead of Richards, Henderson instead of Carrick, Downing instead of Johnson, Carroll instead of Holt, six players from an under achieving Liverpool team.

Personally delighted to see Hodgson fail miserably, roll on the new prem season.........,[/quote]Glen Johnson was top class last night.

[Jacko 0]

I don''t understand how people could have expected more from England in this tournament. It was painfully obvious that for a variety of reasons we lacked quality in midfield and up front compared to the other big hitters in Europe. So Hodgson compensated for that by making us very organised and difficult to beat. They gave it absolutely everything and exceeded expectations by topping a group including a French team which on paper was certainly more talented than the England side. They drew with an Italian side, which is something the much celebrated Spanish side also did.

 

I was very sceptical when Hodgson took the England job. But he has done well in my opinion. There was a humility and honesty about this squad for once which I think people identified with. I think the next logical transition is to try and make England into a more effective counter attacking side for the tournament in Brazil. Possibly playing a 4-3-3 system utilising the pace of players like Oxlade Chamberlain. I think Hodgson has the tactical nous and intelligence to oversee this. We arent suddenly going to produce a side full of brilliant technicians inside 2 years which will allow us to maintain the lion''s share of possession in games. It took the Germans around 10 years for their radical overhaul of the game to really come to the fore. Our aim should be to do something similar. Roy Hodgson''s era should be the start of a clear and obvious plan. Rather than the make do and mend approach we have had since I have consciously followed England.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

[quote user="Jacko"]

I don''t understand how people could have expected more from England in this tournament. It was painfully obvious that for a variety of reasons we lacked quality in midfield and up front compared to the other big hitters in Europe. So Hodgson compensated for that by making us very organised and difficult to beat. They gave it absolutely everything and exceeded expectations by topping a group including a French team which on paper was certainly more talented than the England side. They drew with an Italian side, which is something the much celebrated Spanish side also did.

 

I was very sceptical when Hodgson took the England job. But he has done well in my opinion. There was a humility and honesty about this squad for once which I think people identified with. I think the next logical transition is to try and make England into a more effective counter attacking side for the tournament in Brazil. Possibly playing a 4-3-3 system utilising the pace of players like Oxlade Chamberlain. I think Hodgson has the tactical nous and intelligence to oversee this. We arent suddenly going to produce a side full of brilliant technicians inside 2 years which will allow us to maintain the lion''s share of possession in games. It took the Germans around 10 years for their radical overhaul of the game to really come to the fore. Our aim should be to do something similar. Roy Hodgson''s era should be the start of a clear and obvious plan. Rather than the make do and mend approach we have had since I have consciously followed England.

[/quote]

 

Very true, I would also argue that Germany wasn''t coming from a position as bad as England either.

 

While at youth level the biggest, fastest and strongest kids are put ahead of the more technically minded ones England will never really progress. I don''t get why people think this was a disappointment though? England''s ''par'' is qualify for tournament, get to Quarter Finals and go home. England have made the semi-final or a tournament 3 times in their history.

[lake district canary 0]

The overall fitness of British players has to be brought into question.   Look at the team last night.   Mobility - something which needs to be at its height when playing for your country was just not there.

Gerrard.   Rooney.   Parker.   Not fit, quick or agile enough.     Milner used to be.   What''s happened to them? Too much weight training?   Rooney and Milner look more like heavyweight boxers than fit, agile footballers.    Gerrard and Parker - the hub of midfield were anonymous after the first 20 minutes.      Your most experienced players unable to set an example to the younger ones around them.     Better to field a team of youngsters that are fit than has beens  who can''t cut it for 90 minutes at the top level.   May be a bit harsh,   but we  could not put two passes together.     

Young''s decision making at this level is  not right.     Wellbeck shows promise - but needed better support.    The defence looked ok - Johnson and Cole always looked ok and Terry can still do it. Lescott ok too.    But apart from defence we offered nothing after the first half hour.  An hour and a half of nothing.  

Fitness is the number one requirement. It wasn''t there.

 

[Jacko 0]

Couldn''t agree more Bethnal. I remember about 2 years ago playing on a rec near a school with a couple of friends. After a while a coach came along with about 40 school kids and asked if we could leave as it was time for a PE session. We obviously packed up straight away but out of interest we stayed and watched the session for about 10 minutes. As there was only one person in charge all he could do was set up two pitches and have two matches going on. Naturally both games descended into complete anarchy with the biggest kids barging others out of the way and just punting it as hard as they could towards the general direction of the goal. That may be the only exposure some of these kids will ever get to football through no fault of their own. So I do wonder at times whether the £757 million we spent on a souless national stadium when there are loads of excellent venues available elsewhere could have been better spent on helping to assist development of grassroots football.

[star_manic 0]

why is it that england players do not have the ability to make even simple passes effectively. how many passes were straight into an italians shins last night? it''s almost as if our players think that a window will miraculously open up in an opponents legs to allow the ball through. worst player last night must be a tie between young and rooney. they were so bad we were effectively playing with 9 men for the whole match.

[whoareyou? 0]

It''s the best organised England team we have had in a long time but the players are just not good enough to compete at the top level.Rooney once again failed to deliver. Ashley Young, Milner, Parker, Wellbeck, Henderson are not international players.

[Tim Dawson 0]

That probably was Glenn Johnsons best game in an England shirt but still think Micah Richards is far better.

[Jacko 0]

[quote user="Tim Dawson"]That probably was Glenn Johnsons best game in an England shirt but still think Micah Richards is far better.[/quote]

Walker would be my man going into 2014 I think. I thought he was outstanding last season. But Johnson had a pretty decent tournament that one mishap against Sweden aside. The only critcism I would have was how his presence in the side impacted on the system overall. We seemed to play a very consevative winger in James Milner in order to give Johnson more protection because we feared a very classy wide player would really trouble him. For the record I am not criticising Milner. He was given a brief to do by Hodgson and carried it out to the letter. I just feel that progress deep into a tournament your wide players ultimately need to offer more in the final third.

[Salopian 1]

In my view the main reasons for defeat, and a fairly "backs to the wall" tournament, are few:

1) We carried a few passengers who made little contribution - Roonery, Milner, Young, perhaps others. Others were there too soon for the age and experience - Welbeck, Henderson. (I think that we were also missing Wilshire and Cahill.)

 

2) We are generally short of strikers, especially those who can accurate "cream" the ball into the top corner from 20 yards.

 

3) We had a very weak midfield. Milner and Young were told to patrol their respective touchlines, as both wingers and defenders. In fairness to them, they did try, especially Young. In terms of midfield creativity we had essentially Gerard and sometimes Parker, which is not enough. The policy was therefore to try to progress down the wings, but Milner is too slow and Young not the player he is at club level. The alternative was to put Carroll up front to fight for long balls in route one.  When you give balls away, you put yourself under pressure.Tactically we didn''t seriously try to close down Pirlo - he had acres of space.

 

4) Our passing was awful.We didn''t retain the ball as well as virtually all the teams we played.

 

General comment: Experts are saying that we must play continental type tactics. If this means slow build up and endless short passes accross the opponents back four, I am not convinced. In the end I found it boring - even Barcelona, before theirquick, incisive through ball, fall into this category.

 I thought that our back four were as good as any we saw, and with Gerard and Parker in front were generally not breached. For the world cup however, if we qualify, Terry will surely be too old, and possibly Cole as well. So we may have to look elsewhere. I thought that Johnson improved as the tournament went on, which is a positive. Parker and Gerrard will probably also be too old, so e have some considerable re-building to do, even in the areas of relative strength.

 

[Tim Dawson 0]

Agreed, i forgot about Walker, another class right back who offers a lot, surely if Hodgson was planning for the futuure he was a better option than Johnson

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

The best sides bring the ball forward as  group which involves pass and move. If you don''t do this you will always be outnumbered and stifled up front.

 

Due to a lack of passing ability England began by pressing high up the pitch and it worked until the Italian counter of a long ball to Balotelli made them fall back too deep. It would have been better to have carried on IMO as England have carried a goal threat.

 

Rooney looked overweight (he had moobs) and it has never served us in past games to play players who are not 100%.

 

The team conducted itself well off the pitch though and Hodgson did his best in the time available with the players available.

 

Interesting to see the rigid England formation, lack of passing and fitness and compare the recent work of Paul Lambert and Brendan Rodgers who have used peak fitness, possession and fluid formations to over-acheive with mainly British players of average ability. This is continental style thinking whereas England are still lost in the late 1970''s. I hope Chris Hughton will be equally progressive.

[Kolin Kob 0]

[quote user="Indy"]

Unlike the media, I’m not happy with being knocked out by Italy in the quarter finals! Is that the mark of a successful tournament, if that is than Hodgson is not the man for the job!

 Nobody''s happy about it if they support England, but Italy are a slightly better side with better players, and I think we gave them a good game. Hodgson

Reasons I believe we lost and had a poor tournament are as follows.

 

1, we let them have all the time on the ball, never pressing the man (Lazy by Young, Rooney and Wellbeck).

 Young and Rooney looked tired and lacked confidence. Maybe a hangover to losing the title on the last day - must be a psychological blow. Compare their performance to those of say, Terry and Lescott, who are still basking in the glory of the end of their seasons.

2, Dropped so deep and allowed Italians to pick up the ball between the two banks of defenders! Why the hell did we not push up the field compress the area of play allowing the midfield to press for the ball!

 This is true, but if the side had not done this then they would have been pilloried for not keeping a stable formation. The grass always looks greener on the other side.

3, Playing players out of form, Young was poor in all three games, no pace, no guile and no idea. Was like playing with 10 men for four games.

 You''ve got a point, but he was in fantastic form in the warm up games. It''s easy to say these things after the event.

4, When we got a formation which looked like we could win matched with in the Sweden game, we changed back to cater for a tired and poor Rooney, The guy was totally unfit, from the 10^th minute onwards looked like he was going to collapse. There is no way on this earth he is WORLD CLASS, just a good pro.

 He is world class. He had 2 poor games. There''s an unprecedented amount of pressure on him at international level, and I think that contributes to his underperformances.

5, Fitness levels were very poor, compared to all the teams we played we looked lethargic, second best, only for the last 30 minutes against Sweden did we look good.

 That was down less to fitness than to style of play I think - as we weren''t playing a possession game, we tired easily as we always had to chase

6, A negative manager with a prefixed system and players, even if they didn’t perform were still preferred to attacking options.

 He stuck with what was easiest to do with just 10 training sessions - essentially just keep to the Capello way of playing. Hodgson didn''t have time to change England''s tactics wholesale and he would have been crazy to try.

7, English players are just not world class but solid also-rans, the same the Czech Republic, Sweden, Poland and other Europeans teams. We are never in the same league as the Germans, Italians and Spanish!

We''re probably about 8-10 in world rankings and I think this is about right. THis is usually reflected more or less by where we finish in tournaments. So no real surprise, no real shame, from that showing at the Euros.

I don’t find it easy to accept being soundly beaten by one of the poorest Italian sides (just because they didn’t score doesn’t mean we weren’t soundly beaten). Why can’t we look to the Germans, they look good, mixture of youth and experience, combined with drive determination and expectation to win……..Klinsmann was almost laughing at just how poor we were last night!

 Sad, sad times, I could have accepted going out giving it a good go, like we  did in 1990, 1996 but to go out on a whimper!!!!! Hodgson out, Harry in!

[/quote]

[Jacko 0]

[quote user="Tim Dawson"]Agreed, i forgot about Walker, another class right back who offers a lot, surely if Hodgson was planning for the futuure he was a better option than Johnson[/quote]

Walker had a broke toe sadly. Otherwise he definitely would have been first choice going into the tournament I think.

[Indy 3,296]

Rooney is not World Class and the sooner the public and press realise he''s just not a Ronaldo or Messi the sooner the England manager would have less pressure to pick him!

 

If you were to pick a worl 11 inclding subs than Rooney would be left out! Let''s not make excuses for Rooney evey tournament, look at the effect of a true world class players has, Protugal, without Ronaldo just the same as England, with Ronaldo superb and that class better.

 

[kick it off 1,948]

[quote user="Tim Dawson"]Agreed, i forgot about Walker, another class right back who offers a lot, surely if Hodgson was planning for the futuure he was a better option than Johnson[/quote]

I won''t comment on England''s performance as I cba with another forum row with Shyster et al, but as far as I''m aware, Walker was injured which was why he wasn''t called up. If I recall correctly, broken toe or something?

[Brendo 0]

[quote user="AndyCanary"]I agree with every point you''ve made..However, this point:[quote user="Indy"]

7, English players are just not world class but solid also-rans, the same the Czech Republic, Sweden, Poland and other Europeans teams. We are never in the same league as the Germans, Italians and Spanish![/quote]

Totally undermines this:[quote user="Indy"] Unlike the media, I’m not happy with being knocked out by Italy in the quarter finals! Is that the mark of a successful tournament, if that is than Hodgson is not the man for the job![/quote][/quote]Exactly Andy!We have many ''world class'' players...Hart, Cole, Terry, Gerrard, Rooney. All 5 of them are absolutely brilliant. Having Johnson at RB hindered us imo, if we had Richards we may have been able to play a more attacking RM - Ox for example.Ah well - roll on August!

[Jacko 0]

I was having this conversation with someone the other day. Essentially what you have is the Messi/Ronaldo division of quality which on a different plane from anything is in world football. Below that are a tier of supreb footballers such as Aguero, Xavi, Iniestia, Silva etc. I would put Rooney in the middle of that tier somewhere. Whether that makes him world class or not depends on your definition.

[Indy 3,296]

World class must be defined as game changing, special, it''s too easy to say Rooney is world class when he hasn''t proved it, when has he ever changed a game?

 

Gerrard is the only one close to world class, we have.

 

Would Rooney get into the any of the 4 semi finalist teams on his perfromance over the two games? He did nothing and should have been left home, even Holty would have offered more that Rooney has.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Tim Dawson"]Johnson instead of Richards, Henderson instead of Carrick, Downing instead of Johnson, Carroll instead of Holt, six players from an under achieving Liverpool team. Personally delighted to see Hodgson fail miserably, roll on the new prem season.........,[/quote]

Johnson had a good tournament, Richards was perhaps unlucky to miss out but he shouldn''t have declined being on standby.

 

Carrick only wanted to go if he was going to be starting. I''d have just been happy to be there.

 

Downing plays more games than Johnson and plays his position better.

 

Carroll has got more going for him than Holt. Though maybe there should have been a place for Holt in the squad. Carroll did well when called upon and scored a great goal.

 

I take no pleasure in seeing Roy "fail" because he''s clearly a thoroughly decent chap who is going to be trying his best to improve England''s fortunes.

[ricky knight 0]

Lets get it right, England were garbage, Roy Hodgson is NOT a tactical genius, Rooney is not world class, We cant keep the ball or pass it and we are miles behind the best. Now lets get rid of the consistant failures and start again with a new crop of youngsters.

[......and Smith must score. 1,339]

We can say this player''s not good enough, that player''s not good enough, etc, etc, until we''re blue in the face but the simple truth is England are miles behind several other international sides in class. Poor old Roy tried his best but whoever he''d put out last night he can''t make a silk purse out of a pig''s ear.The pundits on the BBC sofa were right in saying that England are probably in the top seven or eight. There''s a long way to go before England have a realistic chance of winning some more silverware and I very much doubt I''ll see it happen again in my lifetime. Sadly the joy of 1966 is likely to be it for me and for those who weren''t around to see that it''ll be a long time for you all to wait for further glory I''m sorry to sayAt least yesterday''s result meant England don''t have to go through the torment of losing to the Germans yet again......