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BroadstairsR

Safe Standing

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Seating means that every fan has a place allocated and can be traced if they cause problems thus it tends to keep unruly fans from surpassing reasonable bounds of behaviour. Terracing will allow gatecrashing and anonymity which lends itself to hooliganism.  With all-seater a sell-out is a sell-out, but terracing will allow unruly elements to attempt to force their way into grounds as control of attendance numbers is lost.  Reverting to terracing is a risk not worth taking as it will create problems where there currently is not a problem.  

No return to terracing !!!!!!!!

 

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Watch in the Barclay when City get a corner,  hardly anyone''s sitting anyway.

 

Standing doesn''t create unruly fans, they''re already unruly by nature.

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[quote user="paul moy"]

Seating means that every fan has a place allocated and can be traced if they cause problems thus it tends to keep unruly fans from surpassing reasonable bounds of behaviour. Terracing will allow gatecrashing and anonymity which lends itself to hooliganism.  With all-seater a sell-out is a sell-out, but terracing will allow unruly elements to attempt to force their way into grounds as control of attendance numbers is lost.  Reverting to terracing is a risk not worth taking as it will create problems where there currently is not a problem.  

No return to terracing !!!!!!!!

 

[/quote]

I''ve stood on terraces all over the lower leagues and in Germany (both the ''safe standing'' style and traditional) and this is absolute rubbish. Of course control of numbers is still retained, you still go through the same turnstile. Hooliganism has been almost entirely eradicated from football and it''s not going to come back just because fans can legitimately stand again.

Back the safe standing campaign, give yourselves a choice.

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Oh please return to terracing, I really miss this about football. I certainly would regard it as a step forward and not backwards. The fear shown in some of the posts are completely out of proportion. Modern day standing would bear little resemblance to the old days. I always find it incredible just how many people want to control others and not give them freedom of choice. The Taylor report was over -reactionary at the time and probably had as much to do with wanting to punish and dictate to fans as it did to protect them. Like many on here I have been involved in crushes that could have turned into disasters but even at the time it was obvious how they could have been made safer.

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Fans can only logically be identified and controlled in numbers if they have a seat number. How do you control numbers and identify people otherwise to stop gatecrashing ?  If you had an area for 5,000 standing fans how do you stop another 500 determined people getting in, as Liverpool fans have a habit of attempting to do ? IMO that''s just asking for another Hillsborough and putting unnecessary pressure yet again on the police outside the ground.  

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For control of numbers I assume we would still keep the turnstiles. For identification purposes we would keep our faces, although from the amount of trouble and hooligans anticipated it could be assumed everyone would be electronically tagged.

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[quote user="The gut"]For control of numbers I assume we would still keep the turnstiles. For identification purposes we would keep our faces, although from the amount of trouble and hooligans anticipated it could be assumed everyone would be electronically tagged.[/quote]

Gatecrashers tend not to use turnstiles. [:D]

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For sake of argument.  Say a safe terrace was built in front of the hotel that allocated 500 over 16s and was all ticket.  The 500 entered the ground as per normal.  How does gatecrashing occur?

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I think the argument on increasing capacity by terracing will centre around building regulations which have clearly defined m2 values per person, i cant remember the value for a sporting venue of the top of my head, i think concerts are 0.5m2 per person. These values apply to the whole building but i have a feeling with venues such as this is only applies to the viewing area and not the concourses (concourses are 0.7m2pp) for example. Im also not sure if the whole ground is taken into account or only that of new construction (ive only ever done new build where user density applies not extensions), if its new construction only in terms of space 0.5m2 is around 7cmX7cm which is nothing but you''d realistically allow more which wouldnt be much smaller than the space used for a seated spectator (based purely on the size of the seat when its flat down) to make it confortable to stand, also this would have to be balanced with the addition of barriers and possibly extra gangways to break up the groups of people.While it may seem the Building Regulations work in favour of more people per m2 based on their guidlines im sure the arguments over what space is measured to calculate the capacity will take forever, do gangways count? (as im sure they''ll be have at least one foot in each side), do barriers purely count at the base where they stop you from putting your feet or does the area directly underneath count to?. Thats just the way council planning/building works!.Personally im all in favour of standing but i think terracing under current regulations (which some of the older grounds won''t comply with since changes have been made, they will comply with league rules however but they may not conform to requirements on new structures under building regulations) will be an issue, it would probably be best to build for seating and attempt, along with similar minded clubs to allow standing infront of seating in pre-determined areas of the ground (Barclay A-C for example). A policy that all supporters, officials, FA etc are happy with and will not contravene and safety regulations.

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Safe standing has no more connection with gate-crashing, terrace violence or old-style crushing than today''s safe seating.

 

It is a thoroughly well-conceived modern concept*** that has been a proven success in our lower leagues and is practised without problem in the likes of the German Bundes league.

 

It is designed to:

 

Increase customer choice. Some would prefer to stand.

 

Increase ground capacity, which all-seating reduced. The Carrot Patch has a record of some 43, 000 attending. In my formative years I remember the safe ceiling was fixed at 38, 000. This was frequently attained. There is no chance of ever achieving these numbers again, but a few more in would benefit Club and aspirant supporters alike on many occasions during the season. 

 

Be a cheaper option for those whose pockets are not so deep. 

 

*** "A thoroughly well-conceived modern concept."

 

This book easily explains all and belies the sceptical views expressed on some of the (might I say slightly uninformed) views expressed on this thread:-

 

"Stand Up Sit Down - A Choice to Watch Football" is currently available on Amazon.

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[quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"]For sake of argument. 

Say a safe terrace was built in front of the hotel that allocated 500 over 16s and was all ticket.  The 500 entered the ground as per normal. 

How does gatecrashing occur?
[/quote]

I''m sure there are many ways but how about, enter hotel with 100 or so fellow troublemakers, break windows and jump down onto the terraces, and mingle in with the 5,000 or so that paid [:D]

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" Gatecrashers tend not to use turnstiles "

You still need a ticket to get in don''t you ? And this ere nothing to stop a club from selling a specific "safe standing" seat.

Here in LA, the Galaxy have set up two standng areas - complete with "chant co-ordinators" to help create some much needed atmosphere. And those areas are packed - one with ex-pat Brits the other with Mexicans; fun to see the different styles :-)

Once again there seems to too much restriction on personal freedom under the excuse of lack of personal responsibility or security I''m afraid. One of the most depressing outcomes of "the war on terror".

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Some issues are complicated. They have shades of grey rather than being black and white.

This one isn''t. It''s totally straightforward.

Safe standing is exactly that - safe. It happens in huge grounds in Germany with no problems at all. Of course football supporters should be allowed the choice of whether to sit or stand. Note that no one is forcing anyone to stand (unlike the current situation where those standing in seated areas force those behind them to stand up too).

But it is impossible to imagine it happening in England in the foreseeable future, not because it''s dangerous or because of Hillsborough, but because the clubs are very happy with the affluent, middle-class fans that all-seater stadiums attract, and with the ridiculous prices they charge for those cramped bits of plastic.

It''s a disgrace, pure and simple.

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[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]Some issues are complicated. They have shades of grey rather than being black and white. This one isn''t. It''s totally straightforward. Safe standing is exactly that - safe. It happens in huge grounds in Germany with no problems at all. Of course football supporters should be allowed the choice of whether to sit or stand. Note that no one is forcing anyone to stand (unlike the current situation where those standing in seated areas force those behind them to stand up too). But it is impossible to imagine it happening in England in the foreseeable future, not because it''s dangerous or because of Hillsborough, but because the clubs are very happy with the affluent, middle-class fans that all-seater stadiums attract, and with the ridiculous prices they charge for those cramped bits of plastic. It''s a disgrace, pure and simple.[/quote]

 

Indeed. To quote from my final chapter, Misinformation, Cover-up or Conspiracy:

It seems that whatever the evidence, the powers that be don’t want football supporters to be permitted the choice to stand. Unsubstantiated and spurious arguments are used to maintain the status quo, and many people believe that football simply doesn’t want the type of supporters that it thinks want to stand up. It has been suggested that all-seating facilitates the social engineering that replaces traditional working class supporters with more affluent customers, who are able to pay high ticket prices and spend more on club merchandise.

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Wow there really are some right miserable gits in our fanbase eh!?IF safe standing was introduced say at Carrow Road i would imagine that it would take up the areas of the Lower Barclay and perhaps Snakepit.  I would also say that if a survey was carried out tomorrow in such areas, that the overwhelming majority would be in favour of standing.  Let''s face it, anyone who doesn''t want to stand in said area still has about 75% of the ground to sit down on their hands in.Do these same people go to rock concerts and sit on a seat?  Do they ask for a seat when a line forms?Hooliganism is a point which frankly has nothing to do with standing.  A terrace with allocated places, allocated tickets, is no different to a seated area.  It would be no easier for a ticketless "thug" to get into.  Still need to go through a turnstile, still need to have a ticket?!!Personally i am just amazed at the arrogance of people.  Freedom of choice is just that.  Not wanting to politicise this issue but the kind of people that point blank refuse to give others the choice to stand are exactly the kind of nutjobs that tell people what they should and shouldn''t learn in school, how they should or shouldn''t deal with pregnancy, addictions or anything else that they don''t like.  I don''t see any reason why we can''t stand at a football match.  I can''t see any reason why someone else would want to stop us doing it.  Freedom, democracy.  Put it to a vote!

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Since grounds went all-seater we''ve had very few hooligan issues and we''ve also had an influx of families for that reason. Going back to the old days is a risk. It''s arrogant to assume that it isn''t, and sensible politicians will not want to be held responsible if something goes wrong again. Why run the risk of the police having to carry the can yet again.  All-seaters are easier to police and are proven safer..... simples.

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Read the posts above, it''s not ''going back to the old days''. It''s a redesigned version of a football terrace that is entirely safe, as proven by its widespread use at some of the biggest stadiums in the world in Germany, entirely as easy to police and, crucially, offers fans a choice. How is the current situation, where fans who want or need to sit down can have their enjoyment of the game restricted by being in the same area as those who want to stand, in any way preferable?

Watching football is not a crime, standing to watch football is not a crime.

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[quote user="paul moy"]Since grounds went all-seater we''ve had very few hooligan issues and we''ve also had an influx of families for that reason. Going back to the old days is a risk. It''s arrogant to assume that it isn''t, and sensible politicians will not want to be held responsible if something goes wrong again. Why run the risk of the police having to carry the can yet again.  All-seaters are easier to police and are proven safer..... simples.[/quote]

I can''t go through all the arguments in detail on here but these points are all examined in the book.

But I can say that having travelled to the 23 grounds that still have terraces, there are as many if not more families than at all seated grounds, virtually no hooliganism and less arrests than comparable all seaters. Also, we already have standing at most grounds - it''s just unofficial and not managed. I follow West Ham home & away and haven''t sat down for years.

It is a mistake to compare football now with 20 years ago and link the changes with all seating.

 

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Paul moy it''s time you stopped posting. Unsubstantiated claims throughout this thread, it''s clear you don''t know what you''re talking about. Go and do some research before you talk on subjects you are unqualified for.

You ever seen that safe standing stand in Dortmund? Holds about 25,000. Kin ell by your reckoning there should be about 10 murders per match on it.

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[quote user="iwansnorwich"]Paul moy it''s time you stopped posting. Unsubstantiated claims throughout this thread, it''s clear you don''t know what you''re talking about. Go and do some research before you talk on subjects you are unqualified for. You ever seen that safe standing stand in Dortmund? Holds about 25,000. Kin ell by your reckoning there should be about 10 murders per match on it.[/quote]

Well, that''s a logical argument....not.    [:D]  German culture might just have something to do with their safety record. Our culture and record is totally different so shouldn''t be compared.

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I used to go to Hillborough as a boy well before the disaster. On more than one occassion i was squeezed in a crowd of people so i was moved along without my feet touching the floor it was really scarey. The Hillsborough disaster was terrible but such a thing was waiting to happen somewhere at sometime. For me i would never want to see standing take place in any great numbers again. I think memories are short and can also recall swaying to the crowd at various grounds whether you wanted to and also people pissing on others as it was too tight for them to go to the loo. The most important thing is despite  who we support and what opinions we hold we and our families can go to games in safety

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[quote user="Yorkshire Canary"]I used to go to Hillborough as a boy well before the disaster. On more than one occassion i was squeezed in a crowd of people so i was moved along without my feet touching the floor it was really scarey. The Hillsborough disaster was terrible but such a thing was waiting to happen somewhere at sometime. For me i would never want to see standing take place in any great numbers again. I think memories are short and can also recall swaying to the crowd at various grounds whether you wanted to and also people pissing on others as it was too tight for them to go to the loo. The most important thing is despite  who we support and what opinions we hold we and our families can go to games in safety[/quote]

 

I''ve been in similar situations on terraces but what people don''t seem to be appreciating is that it is not proposed to return to the type of terraces that were at Hillsborough. Capacities were redcued after Hillsborough and the number of people allowed in a set area has been further reduced since then. There is no longer crushing on terraces. Turnstiles are computerised so it is not possible for too many people to enter the terrace. If there was a problem escape is easy (often easier than from seats) as there are no fences. The rail seats which are proposed for the top clubs have a rail on every row and it is hard to envisage how these can be unsafe.

Supporters attend lower league grounds in safety. It is safe to stand at Peterborough yet an arbitary rule means they have to go all seated unless relegated this season. If they were safe in League One why not with the same capaicty in the Championship.

I''m not seeking to make money from my book. In fact it has cost me over £4000 to get it published and I''ll be lucky to get half that back. What I hope is that it will help supporters understand both sides of the arguments, then when they have the full facts, make up their own fully informed minds.

 

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Great to have an expert on the subject come on here standupsitdown!

 

I''ve long been a firm advocate of safe standing areas in English football!

 

I''ve experienced safe standing areas in Germany and believe me they are safer than standing behind your seat which goes on in the Barclay lower tier where my seat is, (I never sit on my seat!) the Snakepit and virtually every other all seater ground in our Country!

Yes its 20 years since Carrow Road last had proper standing areas yet many fans still would prefer to stand!

 

I''ve also never worked out why standing areas are deemed safe in lower League grounds, rugby grounds, virtually every sports and public gathering yet are deemed unsafe in the top two Leagues in the Country? 

 

Hillsborough was caused by the police opening the exit gates letting in anyone off the street who wanted to get in with or without a ticket. Then when the penns became overcrowded, fences and the police initially thinking the problems were being caused by hooliganism prevented a quick exit out of the danger area. Hillsborough would of occured in an all seated area under the same conditions. - Imagine the Barclay lower tier with 3-4 penns, large perimeter fence in front of it and then open the exit gates and try to get 4500 in the area instead of the current 3-3200 then have the authorities initally unwilling to open the exit gates at the front. You''d have the same effect.

 

Like many Norwich fans present that day, I remember the overcrowding that occured in the Norwich end during the West HamVNorwich FA cup quarter final at Upton Park about a month before Hillsborough. My clear recollections are of the big surges, an old man in front of me being carried quite a distance by a surge, some Norwich fans climbing into the roof structure and the police in the control room looking directly at the stand waving the roof climbers to come down. This shows how ignorant the police were at this time to crowd safety and a Hillsborough like incident could of occured that day.

 

Indeed a stadium disaster with a much higher fatality count than Hillsborough happened at Ellis Park in South Africa in an ALL SEATED area. This was caused by dodgy turnstile operators cashing in by admitting more fans than they should have been.

 

I still maintain the Taylor report was good for football in that it forced the standard of stadiums to go up but this could of been done with safe standing areas. The Taylor report no doubt heavily influenced by clubs wanting to attract more affluent supporters has been an excuse for the club to do exactly this.

 

Clubs thought that fans would get used to standing but this so obviously hasn''t been the case. Everybody whos attended lots of games in the all seated era would of seen problems caused by fans standing, obstructing the view of those who wished to stay seated. The simple answer to this arguement would be to give fans a choice. Then fans standing in seated areas would have to fully comply. Most of the grounds capacity would still be seated but some areas would be reverted to safe standing areas. In the case of Carrow Road this would be the Barclay lower tier and the Snakepit!

 

At Carrow Road I know from personnel experience, the old Barclay terrace was easier to exit than what the new allseated version is. On the old terrace after the penns were taken down after Hillsborough you could walk of the side and straight out or out of the back. Now I have to go left, then down, turn left downt he tunnel, and then left or right to get out!

 

Hooliganism was already on the wane before most grounds were made all seated in the 1992-1995 period so this arguement about all seaters being directly linked to the almost complete extinction of hooliganism at grounds is complete boll*cks. There was no or only very minor incidents at Carrow Road in at least the last 5 years of the Barclay and River end terraces. Even in the subsequent years of the all seated Carrow Road 1992-present, its been the same with only some minor incidents, proving that incidents do also occur in seated areas!

 

You cannot compare modern day ground regulations, ground control and health and safety to the dark days of the late 80''s. Things improved considerably in the last years of standing areas immdeiately after Hillsborough and nowadays things are so tight, regulated and controled that the chances of serious indients occuring are very very slim!

 

With the safe standing rail seat model, every fan would have their own numbered space in a numbered row which is the same as having a specific seat in an all seated stand. Surges would not be possible because every fan would have their own crush barrier so you couldn''t get pushed from behind or push the person in front of you.

 

While I want to see standing areas return to grounds, I don''t want to see a return to the dark days!

 

Like I''ve already said many fans want to stand, standing in a proper standing area is safer than standing behind a seat and support for this is growing by the day. This has got to happen one day and football will improve as a result!

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That book looks like it would be a very interesting read and well worth the investment of a little time and money.

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Excellent post by Kingsway. A few comments.

 

I went to a match at Stuttgart for research for the book and yes it was safe, with a far better atmosphere than at most English grounds.

 

There is no logical reason why the safety of a terrace should be related to the level of football on the pitch.

 

Causes of Hillsborough were complex but basically poor planning, policing, ground layout and most of all fences. And yes lives would have been lost with such over crowding in a seated area – as they were at Ellis Park

 

I was at the West Ham v Norwich quarter final (and the replay) but wasn’t aware of crushing in the Norwich section. The worst I ever experienced was QPR v West Ham in the cup, when too many fans were allowed in (sold out all ticket but club allowed others to pay at gate) . It’s described in the book but had there been fences at Loftus Road, Hillsborough wouldn’t have happened as there would have been deaths of West Ham fans.

 

I’m glad you say hooliganism was reducing before all seater. I have arrest figures in the book which back this up.

 

Hillsborough & the other disasters occurred before we had a proper safety culture. It is not only football that has become safer by taking more care over safety.

 

One correction on rail seats. Fans have tickets for a section but not necessarily a specific spot in that section.

 

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[quote user="standupsitdown"]

Excellent post by Kingsway. A few comments.

 

I went to a match at Stuttgart for research for the book and yes it was safe, with a far better atmosphere than at most English grounds.

 

There is no logical reason why the safety of a terrace should be related to the level of football on the pitch.

 

Causes of Hillsborough were complex but basically poor planning, policing, ground layout and most of all fences. And yes lives would have been lost with such over crowding in a seated area – as they were at Ellis Park

 

I was at the West Ham v Norwich quarter final (and the replay) but wasn’t aware of crushing in the Norwich section. The worst I ever experienced was QPR v West Ham in the cup, when too many fans were allowed in (sold out all ticket but club allowed others to pay at gate) . It’s described in the book but had there been fences at Loftus Road, Hillsborough wouldn’t have happened as there would have been deaths of West Ham fans.

 

I’m glad you say hooliganism was reducing before all seater. I have arrest figures in the book which back this up.

 

Hillsborough & the other disasters occurred before we had a proper safety culture. It is not only football that has become safer by taking more care over safety.

 

One correction on rail seats. Fans have tickets for a section but not necessarily a specific spot in that section.

 

[/quote]

They could info here.http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/homeInteresting it claims it can increase areas for fans by 1.8.  This could be by far a cheaper solution to increase capacity.

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Good to see a poll on front page of Pinkun.

To answer post above - For rail seats seat numbers are only used when the seats are unlocked for European games. In standing mode people stand where they want within their allocated section.




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[quote user="standupsitdown"]

Good to see a poll on front page of Pinkun.

To answer post above - For rail seats seat numbers are only used when the seats are unlocked for European games. In standing mode people stand where they want within their allocated section.




[/quote]

 

http://www.pinkun.com/home

Currently 76% in favour of standing areas.

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