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BroadstairsR

Safe Standing

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There has been much discussion on this Board recently about the viability or otherwise of NCFC ground expanding. I was broadly in favour.

 

What was never mentioned, as we all seemed to forget the issue, was this particular dimension with regards to capacity increase. The following from the Citymad site indicates that the movement is still very much alive. It is worthy of our support IMO and should even be considered in depth within the Club''s own feasability study on the whole matter and then presented to the powers that be. 

 

 

I''m in, even though I have trouble standing nowadays for the full five minutes that it takes me to trickle a pee. 

 

 

 

"Safe Standing
You may recall the Stand Up Sit Down campaign which was merged with the Football Supporters’ Federation Safe Standing campaign two years ago.

The campaign continues and I’ve just published a book which covers the whole issue of standing - Hillsborough, hooliganism, the arguments for and against all-seating, plus the campaigns for choice.

Stand Up Sit Down - A Choice to Watch Football is currently £8.99 post free on Amazon.

http://amzn.to/Kox5uH

Note - The book hasn’t been written to make money – but hopefully will recoup some of the £4000 publication costs. The aim is to promote discussion and awareness of the safe standing arguments.

Details:

For a hundred years most supporters watched football from terraces, a culture that was an integral part of the game. By the 1980s though, neglected stadia, hooliganism and a lack of concern for safety meant that football had to change, and after 96 Liverpool fans tragically died at Hillsborough, Lord Taylor’s report recommended that our grounds should be all-seated. Many people however believe that something of the soul has been taken away from watching football and that standing is the natural way to feel part of the game.

In Stand Up Sit Down Peter Caton considers the arguments for and against the choice to stand to watch football. He visits the 23 English grounds that still have terraces, seeking the views of clubs and supporters, travels to Yorkshire to watch rugby league and to Germany to stand on a convertible terrace. With extensively researched background, the author analyses the disasters and hooliganism that led to all-seating, and the many changes that have occurred in the game. He considers various solutions proposed to allow standing, and highlights obstacles facing those backing the choice to stand. His own experiences of watching football at all levels add insight and interest. The book ends by asking its own questions and with a whiff of conspiracy.

Illustrated with colour photographs, Stand Up Sit Down is a fascinating read, which unearths some surprising facts and raises many controversial issues relevant to all who love football.


If you would like to get involved with the Safe Standing campaign please contact the Football Supporters’ Federation. http://www.fsf.org.uk/ "

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Hillsborough wasn''t caused by terracing - It was caused by the police opening the exit gates letting anyone with or without a ticket into the stand who were then directed into one pen which was already full and then the fences and penns didn''t allow for a quick getaway.

 

Since them dark days, ground control has improved tenfold even before many grounds now being all seater. In my opinion if the same top notch ground control measures were used with safe standing then they''d be no extra risk.

 

20 years now since Carrow Road went all seater yet still many fans in the Barclay lower tier and the snakepit would rather stand including tose too young or not even born when Carrow Road last had standing areas.

 

My blueprint for safe standing areas -

 

A converted safe standing area or completely new safe standing stand to hold exactly the same as the stand did when it was all seated.

 

No fences or pens.

 

Only lower tiers of stands to be used as safe standing areas.

 

Every person in a safe standing area to be behind their own numbered crush barrier.

 

This has got to happen if theirs any common sense!

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The problem is that to introduce any kind of terracing (safe or not) would require a change in the law. The law states that all stadia for clubs playing in the premier league or championship MUST be all seater. The only exception under the law is for teams that are promoted to to a position where it applies where they get time to upgrade the stadium (2 seasons).

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Even if its green lighted, clubs spent money on all dearer conversions. I doubt very much they will pay money for stadium modification again.

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I''m not convinced that standing areas would increase capacity, yet they would perhaps cost as much / more than conventional seating, yet fans would want to pay less - because they haven''t got a seat.

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[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

 

 Hillsborough wasn''t caused by terracing - It was caused by the police opening the exit gates letting anyone with or without a ticket into the stand who were then directed into one pen which was already full and then the fences and penns didn''t allow for a quick getaway.

 

[/quote]The Ibrox disaster in 1971 was caused by terracing and there were no fences then. For some reason, nothing was done at that time and 66 people died as a result of that event. I remember it being in the news, but it never attracted the sort of coverage that Hillsborough did.

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GRD and No 9.

 

I think the two main reasons for introducing this should be:

 

(1) Freedom of choice for the spectator.

(2) Increased capacity.

 

(Whilst maintaining the maximum of safety.)

 

If the latter were not to be the case then clubs would lose money as it would obviously be cheaper to stand.

 

The book I mentioned in the O/P arrived yesterday. It looks to be a very good read. I noticed that it had photographs of various club''s SS areas and I will post some later.

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[quote user="spudgfsh"]The problem is that to introduce any kind of terracing (safe or not) would require a change in the law. The law states that all stadia for clubs playing in the premier league or championship MUST be all seater. The only exception under the law is for teams that are promoted to to a position where it applies where they get time to upgrade the stadium (2 seasons).[/quote]

 

Sorry but your wrong on this quote if you take a trip to London rd peterborough you will find either end is terracing for home and away fans................and i know because i have been to a few games.As you will see also when we play them in the friendly [:)] and peterborough are in the championship, I think you will find its premier league clubs that have to be seated through out

 

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

GRD and No 9.

 

I think the two main reasons for introducing this should be:

 

(1) Freedom of choice for the spectator.

(2) Increased capacity.

 

(Whilst maintaining the maximum of safety.)

 

If the latter were not to be the case then clubs would lose money as it would obviously be cheaper to stand.

 

The book I mentioned in the O/P arrived yesterday. It looks to be a very good read. I noticed that it had photographs of various club''s SS areas and I will post some later.

[/quote]

I''m not sure that capacity could increase as a result of ''safe standing'' because some of the ''safe standing'' solutions just have a standing area where a seat would be.

ie, 1 person in that space whether standing or sitting.

 

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                                       (Tranmere Rovers FC)

Looks pretty good to me. Safe and accomodating. It really amounts to more barriers and, presumably, some control on numbers.

 

 

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It would also seem to fit in more than seating VoR.

 

If it were possible, which is not the case, I would like to see it tried in the hotel corner area. If there is room for 800 sitting, how many standing?  

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Canario

 

The Ibrox disaster in 1971 was caused by terracing and there were no fences then. For some reason, nothing was done at that time and 66 people died as a result of that event. I remember it being in the news, but it never attracted the sort of coverage that Hillsborough did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Ibrox disaster wasn''t caused by terracing. It actually happened on one of the staircases out of the stand. What happened was that Rangers I think equalised very late and fans on the staircase getting an early getaway heard the noise and turned back up the stairs to go back into the stand where they tryed to walk the other way against others fans behind them trying to get out which led to a severe blockage half way up the stairs. Many people then fell which led to a domino effect with people from both sides continuing to try to walk in their direction and others unable to do anything other than go with the endless flow which was where the fatalities occurred. Anyone who went to Carrow Road games pre 1973 when there was 35,000+ people in the crowd will recall when after getting onto Carrow Road (now the service road behind the present main stand and none of the other roads and riverside were about) it seemed as if you were being lifted of your feet and didn''t have to walk and you''d still be moving. I suppose this was the case on the staircase at Ibrox.

 

Yes Ibrox in 71 didn''t get the publicity it should have probably but it did herald a massive change and improvement in football ground standards. Carrow Road held about 37,000 in 1971 but only 6 years later it held under 30,000 because of these very changes in the ground standards.

 

Nowadays football grounds are light years ahead of what they''d of been in the 1970''s and even the 1980''s and are better suited to safely containing and controlling big crowds. When Riverside was built all the extra extra roads and pathways have made Carrow Road better suited to bigger crowds.

 

Like I said in my earlier post converting a few areas in football grounds to safe standing areas where the capaciyt of the stand is no more than what it owuld have been when seated, EG, at Carrow Road the snakepit corner and the Barclay lower tier would not in any decrease the levels of spectator safety. How or who pays for these changes will be the tricky bit!

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[quote user="Divs crew!"]

[quote user="spudgfsh"]The problem is that to introduce any kind of terracing (safe or not) would require a change in the law. The law states that all stadia for clubs playing in the premier league or championship MUST be all seater. The only exception under the law is for teams that are promoted to to a position where it applies where they get time to upgrade the stadium (2 seasons).[/quote]

Sorry but your wrong on this quote if you take a trip to London rd peterborough you will find either end is terracing for home and away fans................and i know because i have been to a few games.As you will see also when we play them in the friendly [:)] and peterborough are in the championship, I think you will find its premier league clubs that have to be seated through out

[/quote]

As I also said. Teams have a couple of years grace before they have to upgrade the seating.  Scunthorpe United saved money when they were relegated a couple of years ago because staying up would have meant that they had to change.  The odd thing is that being relegated and then promoted again resets the time limit.  If Posh stay up this season they will be forced to put in seating.

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Sorry but your wrong on this quote if you take a trip to London rd peterborough you will find either end is terracing for home and away fans................and i know because i have been to a few games.As you will see also when we play them in the friendly [:)] and peterborough are in the championship, I think you will find its premier league clubs that have to be seated through out

 

 

 

 

 

 

Premiership and Championship clubs are required by law to have all seater stadiums. Peterboroughs London Road ground isn''t all seater yet because they have not been in the Championship long but will required to turn their ground all seater in the near future. Indeed I know the away end at London Road is being converted to all seats maybe as we speak or will be getting done very soon!

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[quote user="Divs crew"]

[quote user="spudgfsh"]The problem is that to introduce any kind of terracing (safe or not) would require a change in the law. The law states that all stadia for clubs playing in the premier league or championship MUST be all seater. The only exception under the law is for teams that are promoted to to a position where it applies where they get time to upgrade the stadium (2 seasons).[/quote]

 

Sorry but your wrong on this quote if you take a trip to London rd peterborough you will find either end is terracing for home and away fans................and i know because i have been to a few games.As you will see also when we play them in the friendly [:)] and peterborough are in the championship, I think you will find its premier league clubs that have to be seated through out

 

[/quote]The coming season will be only Peterborough''s fourth in the second tier in their history. They were up for two seasons running about 20 years ago but got relegated so up to now they haven''t had to make the ground all seater.If it''s anything like the ignored rule that Premier League clubs must have undersoil heating then I doubt the authorities would enforce it anyway.

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It is not a league or FA rule but is part of English law. Ground requirements are strictly enforced but it is generally only an issue in the non-league pyramid. If a team stays in the championship (or PL) for more than two seasons then they have to upgrade the stadium. So I think that Posh have another year to sort it out.

The only recent examples (I can think of) were scunthorpe (who got relegated just in time to avoid the expense) and fulham who were promoted to the PL at the end of their second season and were forced to upgrade craven cottage.

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I still don''t know how Watford get away with that big lump of terrace they have. They say it is closed during football but there are often a few people in there and surely the point is that the stadium is supposed to be all modernised rather than just having a bit of string in front of the cr@p bits?

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I''ve just come across this forum and as writer of Stand Up Sit Down can I correct a couple of posts about Ibrox.

 

Firstly the disaster occurred on the exit steps, not a terrace. Secondly the cause was found not to be fans trying to return after a late goal, although this is still commonly thought to be the case. To quote from the book:

 

A public inquiry headed by Lord Wheatley refuted initial suggestions that the crush was caused by Rangers fans, who had left after Celtic scored, attempting to return to the terrace when they heard the cheer for the equaliser. This myth is however still commonly believed today. Wheatley concluded that the cause was simply the downward force of so many supporters leaving at the same time, with the momentum of the crowd meaning that once people started to fall there was no way of holding back the mass of bodies.

 

I have summarised the causes of the four disasters as follows:

 

At Ibrox Park there was no suggestion of poor behaviour by supporters. The disaster was caused by unsafe ground design with a long straight exit stairway. Previous incidents had highlighted the risk, but no significant action had been taken. Hooliganism had no part in Ibrox.

 

At Valley Parade too there was no suggestion of poor behaviour by supporters. The disaster was caused by a combination of a wooden stand, accumulated rubbish and no ban on smoking. The death toll was increased by exits being shut or locked. A letter warning of the risks of the exact scenario which resulted in the 56 deaths had been ignored by Bradford City. Hooliganism had no part in the Bradford fire.

 

The immediate cause of Heysel was the charge by Liverpool supporters, which led to Juventus supporters backing away and the collapse of a wall. The state of the stadium, ticketing arrangements and poor policing were also to blame, and had any one of these four causes not occurred, loss of life would have been unlikely. We cannot however escape the fact that whatever their provocation on the day or from previous occasions, without the action of those few Liverpool supporters the Heysel disaster would not have happened.

 

The causes of Hillsborough were more complex, but can be summarised as inadequate planning and crowd control, resulting in severe overcrowding in a fenced area with no means of escape. Lessons had not been learned from previous incidents, so the situation was entirely foreseeable, but failings in policing allowed it to become a disaster. Despite the lies by the police match commander, and in Lord Taylor’s words, the presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much and aggravated the problems outside, it was not hooliganism that caused the death of the 96 Liverpool fans. However, the fact that there were fences and to an extent the police actions both in planning and on the day, reflect on twenty years of football hooliganism, which hence played an indirect part in the Hillsborough disaster.

 

Stand Up Sit Down - A Choice to Watch Football is available through this link for £6.99. http://amzn.to/Kox5uH

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I hope terraces are never reintroduced. The last time I stood at the football (excluding standing at away games which is obviously only one person per seat) was at West Ham in the quarter finals of the FA Cup - the only time I''ve feared for my own safety at a football match. Safety has be the number one and only consideration at sporting stadia notwithstanding the loss of atmosphere this has brought to football grounds post-Hillsborough.

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[quote user="Highland Canary"]I hope terraces are never reintroduced. The last time I stood at the football (excluding standing at away games which is obviously only one person per seat) was at West Ham in the quarter finals of the FA Cup - the only time I''ve feared for my own safety at a football match. Safety has be the number one and only consideration at sporting stadia notwithstanding the loss of atmosphere this has brought to football grounds post-Hillsborough.[/quote]

A lot has changed since that cup quarter final and no one is proposing bringing terraces back to the top two leagues without adequate safeguards. Convertible rail seats, where each row has a rail in front of it, and with seats that can be unlocked for use in European matches is what is proposed for the top two leagues. See photos & info through this link.

http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/

Small modern terraces, such as those shown on the photo of Barnet further up the thread, are proposed for the lower leagues. Terraces are still in place at 23 grounds and work very well. In fact, safety is generally not considered to be the main argument against standing.

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It''ll never happen.

Not just from a safety pont of view, which in my view remains significant. Safe standing areas would certainly be possible BUT you are still increasing the risk from seating.

No, the biggest issue is giving everyone a designated seat at present from a security point of view. Everyone is recorded as being at a designated seat and can be found on CCTV if causing a misdemeanor. At present it is the best security can be from a policing perspective.

It''s no coincidence that hooliganism within stadiums is now pretty non- existent compared to the 70''s and 80''s. You just cannot hide in a stadium nowadays.

With standing, it is FAR harder to police and ensure people are kept in heir designated space. It would eventually lead to worse behaviour in stadiums than at present as people could move about easily en mass, which in itself creates more of a security issue.

At present, if some tanked up Chelsea fan, let''s say, has a problem with someone 3 rows in front and 10 seats to the right, he can''t get to him very easily at all. With standing, him and his mates would get to the person far easier. Magnify that a few times and you have increased security risks.

As for no pens, I''m afraid that''s a flawed argument. There were no divided pens at hillsborough in the Leppings lane end when spurs played wolves in the fa cup semi final in 1981, yet a crushed still ensued with people being lifted over the front of the stand to safety. It was only after this when divided pens were it in, leading to even worse outcome in 1989.

I''m afraid the world we live in in 2012 is far different from a health and safety one from 20 years ago, that this will just never happen, on so many levels.

That was the past, this is the future and we need to move on.

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This thread is months old and came about as part of the ground-expansion (more capacity) debate that crops up regularly.

 

It''s a good argument Flecky, but I, personally, would not assume the consequences of safe-standing would  be as drastic as that. I would not envisage such a return to vagrant hooliganism.

 

Apart from designated seating, other factors, including CCTV and social changes have also contributed to the decrease in such trouble these days. The tribes have decreased in personel and the punishments for miscreants now are more effective. 

 

Regarding CCTV, even my little town centre used to be a mini hot-spot of violence at week-ends. Now, flooded with cameras, it is relatively free of combatants. I should imagine that this measure has equal effect in football grounds.

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I cannot understand the desire to return to standing at matches. Seats were once a luxury item and are now available to all which make for a more comfortable and secure environment but more importantly everyone can see the game.

It is really frustrating at away games where fans insist on standing with no regard for those behind them who even if forced to stand cannot see the game. One is reluctant to ask stewards to enforce fellow fans to sit so most times you put up with it unless it becomes intolerable. I have even asked fans to swap places if they could not sit down. It is after all a basic courtesy (never mind the law) and why should you pay for the comfort of a seat if you are prevented for using it.

I hope standing never returns.

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I would never want to stand again for ninety minutes Felix, but some would prefer it.

 

Seats have always been ''available'' to all, but at a cost. The uproar that has evolved about the £30 Spurs game included complaints from fans with financial restraints and suggests cost still remains a factor for many.

 

Standing safely offers choice and by definition should be cheaper.

 

Seated fans standing up at just the wrong moment is indeed a flippin'' nuisance, but mainly because we remain seated as was intended. The only times I can remember being visually impaired when standing was when the  some old buzzard in front of me insisted upon wearing his trilby for the full ninety.

 

Are those seats really that comfortable? Many times in the cold and wet I have left my designated piece of plastic to shake myself and stamp my frozen feet at the back of the stand. I would adhere to the comfort bit the day they instal under-stand heating or warm air eminating from above .... fat chance.  

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It should be about personal choice, nobody is saying rip all the seats out of football grounds but just because some people don''t want to stand why should everyone have to sit?

Personally I find it uncomfortable to sit on them horrible plastic seats, 6 years ago today (funnily enough) I was under the surgeons knife having half my left thigh removed due to cancer, 6 weeks of Radiotherapy followed leaving the remaining muscle scarred and rock hard, standing is a lot more comfortable than sitting on a cramped plastic seat.

Personally I would like to see the lower tiersof the Barclay and the River End converted to safe standing areas, this would allow people to have a choice and IMO improve the atmosphere, after all how many chiors have you seen singing whilst seated.

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To answer a few points raised.

 

The issue is choice. The majority wish to sit. A large minority prefer to stand. Why shouldn’t they be allowed this choice? Surveys show that a large majority of fans, whatever their personal preference, believe that there should be a choice to sit or stand.

 

Currently many fans stand in seated areas, blocking the views of others who want or need to sit. Separate standing areas would solve this problem. It very rarely occurs in grounds with terraces.

 

Other sports do have standing. Rugby & horse racing for two. There is widespread standing at football across the world. All top German league grounds have standing areas.

 

Where is the evidence that standing leads to hooliganism? The arrest rate at League One & Two clubs with terraces is lower than those with all seated grounds.

 

And where is the evidence that modern standing areas are less safe than seats. I’ve analysed injury figures from the Football Licensing Authority and they don’t show it’s safer to sit.

 

There were fences at the front of the stand at Hillsborough in 1981. On this occasion the police opened them to allow Spurs fans out and relive the crushing. No one is suggesting that we return to terraces with fences in front.

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