No club 'spin' can hide the harsh facts of Worthy's underperformance

[Mr Carrow in the City Stand 0]

Sorry but I just do not accept that we should be bottom of the League with 20 points at this stage of the season. Relegation I  fully accept was always a possibility this season and if we had been in with a real chance of survival and failed then fair enough. But the manager and/ or Board have made decisions which have cost us dear and after the 9 year wait to get into this League we should have done better.

- The defence has been woeful all season and has mainly lacked height but Mackay was sold before a ball was kicked ?

- Shackell looks potentially a class act but has been brought in far too late.

- Signings last summer did not include  a striker, which was the obvious need. Competitive performances early on were good but the wins didn''t come as a result. We played a centre half, Docherty, at centre forward instead of a genuine forward - embarassing and suggesting the writing was  on the wall even then.

- Crouch went to Southampton for a reported £2million and looks like keeping them up at this snip of a price. We allegedly couldn''t ''afford'' him even though he was very positive about our club.  

- We signed the highly promising Ashton about 20 games too late for a much higher figure than Crouch; currently Ashton is much less effective than Crouch although he may have more potential.

- The manager''s record in the transfer market last summer was very weak- Helveg, Saffri, are talented players but have not been fitted in and their contributions have been minimal. Jonson the supposed international right winger has yet to cross a decent ball all season.

- Worthy''s post match comments have been the same for 30 games - work rate/effort etc- but managers at WBA. Palace and Southampton have all improved the defences and performances of struggling sides. Our manager and coaching staff have made absolutely no impact on performances and goals conceded all season. if anything it''s got worse.

- Huckerby/ Mckenzie/ Ashton and other forwards have no real chance when we regularly concede so many and their body language has steadily shown their realisation of the inevitable as the season has gone on.

- Worthington seems to think he is immune to criticism. There is no evidence of the Board asking him any serious questions of him but the time should not be long away, particularly if we get a mediocre start next season.

We should now stand by for lots of brave talk about an ''automatic'' return next season - just as the likes of Wolves, West Ham and Leicester and many others have failed to do before. Lets all hope we manage it but talk is cheap. Last time it took us 9 long years and the sort of decisions the club have made this season have been weak, almost naive,  and made us look also rans alongside the likes of WBA and Palace. This quite simply should not have happened and the management and coaching of the side has been found seriously wanting at this level.

[Campbell 0]

Ok, here we go:

The defence has been woeful all season and has mainly lacked height but Mackay was sold before a ball was kicked ?

Malky is very slow, he''s also getting on a bit...we were offered around 300k for him, which was wisely accepted. Malky would have been murdered at this level. The pace of the Premiership is frightening. Watching the likes of Marlon King streak away from him this season have reaffirmed my opinion that selling was the right thing. Shackell should have been brought in early on in my view, but that''s easy to say in retrospect. Charlton at centre back however yielded a string of clean sheets, no wins, but we looked tight and difficult to beat.

Shackell looks potentially a class act but has been brought in far too late.

Agreed.

Signings last summer did not include a striker, which was the obvious need. Competitive performances early on were good but the wins didn''t come as a result. We played a centre half, Docherty, at centre forward instead of a genuine forward - embarassing and suggesting the writing was on the wall even then.

This comes down to money, if we could have got a good striker for the right price, we would have. Jonson is a striker by the way, and a good one, but I''ll come on to that later. As it turned out, we had to wait for the Transfer Window and the cash injection that the shares created. The £1.25m was spent on the first installment of Dean Ashton''s transfer fee. Doherty was bought as a centre halve, but he was the best option. McKenzie has only just found his form, and early season performances from Svensson were woeful.

Crouch went to Southampton for a reported £2million and looks like keeping them up at this snip of a price. We allegedly couldn''t ''afford'' him even though he was very positive about our club.

The Peter Crouch/Harry Redknapp relationship works. It''s that simple. Harry plays to Crouch''s strengths and is the only manager that knows how to get the very best out of him. I seriously doubt he would have done the same for us, and at £2m it was a big gamble to take.

We signed the highly promising Ashton about 20 games too late for a much higher figure than Crouch; currently Ashton is much less effective than Crouch although he may have more potential.

What we have in Ashton is a big building block of our future. He will go on to be a great player and he will score many goals for the full England side. If he needs to move on to further his career, we get a fat cheque enabling us to strengthen the squad with quality additions. If he stays, we have a quality centre forward on our hands for many years to come. We made the right decision in signing Ashton over Crouch...if we have to take a step back before taking three forward, then that''s fine with me.

The manager''s record in the transfer market last summer was very weak- Helveg, Saffri, are talented players but have not been fitted in and their contributions have been minimal. Jonson the supposed international right winger has yet to cross a decent ball all season.

Injuries at important times have blighted the players you mentioned so far. Helveg is quality, and Safri is better than Holt definitely. Sometimes it''s difficult to just throw foreign players in at the deep end, as we found to our cost early on. Jonson is NOT...I repeat NOT a right winger. He is a striker, and an intelligent striker at that. Why he has never played upfront (apart from briefly against Liverpool) I don''t know. He does have pace, but without confidence, pace can be killed...just ask Michael Owen or Harry Kewell.

Worthy''s post match comments have been the same for 30 games - work rate/effort etc- but managers at WBA. Palace and Southampton have all improved the defences and performances of struggling sides. Our manager

[silver fox 0]

Fully agree with all your points Mr Carrow but the reality is that this board will not sack Worthy and his coaching staff, and sadly we will be seeing the likes of Fleming and Holt again next season. 

 The difference that Safri and Helveg made to the team when they came on today was clear for all the fans to see, however, I guarantee that Fleming and Holt will already be pencilled in for next week.

Whatever lump sum we receive a percentage of it should be used to find a manager who is prepared to play Safri, Helveg, Charlton, Henderson, Jarvis, Crow instead of having to put up with Fleming, Holt, Edworthy, Stuart every week.

[FatMan Fat 0]

I would agree with the vast majority of your post (apart from helvig being quality)

Mr W should be given a maximumof half a season next year and if we are not in at least a play-off place he should go.

My biggest disappointment this year has been that we simply have not developed as a team and for that Mr W has to take responsibility.

 

[BedsCanary 0]

These threads are getting boring now...

[3pmkickoff 0]

I''m disappointed, you''re disappointed, we''re all disappointed. But in reality every norwich supporter shoud be thanking Worthy for what he has done in a short space of time. Sell out crowds, before this season we''d only lost 9 league games at home in three seasons. There''s a new stand, a very nice looking infill. We''ve got some great young talent and he''s re-structed the youth system.

The Premiership has changed, when we were last there you could compete by spending less than seven figure sums on players. Now it''s not possible and you can either risk money on the big time or build slowly. Everything''s going right off the pitch, this season is a learning curve. We could have done better but I''d rather be a strong position to bounce right back rather than go down with a massive rebuild job on the cards a''la Leeds, Bradford, Sheff Wed, Barnsley, Leicester, Sunderland........

[NavMan 0]

As for the Malky argument yes he was slow but would have done no worse than any other of our defenders and at least he was in the box defending with his headers and organising which is more than this shower is doing at the moment.  He was sturdy when crosses came in and gave a bit of height to the defence. 

[Canaries for Ever 0]

Campbell & ncfc4prem - at least there are some level-headed individuals posting. We must sum up using our heads not our hearts.

Everyone has experienced disappointment this season and surely many must have known we were going to struggle to find our feet in such a different Premiership to the past - but it seems some handle the disappointment in a different way to others. It would be absolute madness to replace Nigel and (hopefully) in the cold light of day, some will see that.

Concord was and is the right approach and I would hate to think that, if the boat gets rocked now, it is the fans that have instigated it.

I will enjoy watching NCFC and take what I can from the matches. The long, cold, 100 mile drive home after the Man City match will not be forgotten quickly - but I am still glad I was there.

 

[We need a Manager 0]

Worthington has had other options open to him regarding team selection , he has failed to even try these options , for that alone he should go .

[Stephen Frys Evil Twin 0]

To be fair, I don''t think we were ever realisitically aiming to stay up this season. We''ve signed players who are either going to serve us for one year, and then be releasable/sellable at the end of that time (Helveg, Stuart, Bentley, Charlton) or players who look like they have quality and will play for us next season in the Championship (Ashton, Safri, Doherty (possibly)). The only person who doesn''t fit into this rule is Jonson, who I think has underperformed severely, who we spent a fair amount on but I don''t think we can blame Worthy for him being poor.

I think we have been planning to go down, be prudent (look at West Brom and Palace, they have spent much more than we have and have had limited success), make a few good signings that will benefit us next season and then look to build on those this Summer.

I think we have a very good chance to bounce back and Worthy is the man to do that.

[knowhatimean 0]

The Manager must take full responsibility for the position the club is in and how anyone can not accept this is beyond belief. The performances on the field reflect the quality of the coaching and motivation of the Management team and we fully deserve to be bottom of the league. The Board must also take full responsibility for not doing as most other clubs would have done in the same position by replacing the Manager giving his replacement adequate time to turn things around. Sorry but that is my honest opinion of the situation and I am sure it will be shared by many clear thinking supporters. Mr Carrow is spot on with his assessment of Worthy''s team selections, substitutions, transfer dealings etc etc.We all knew that it would be difficult in the Premiership but to see a Norwich City team so lacking in passion and resigned to relegation when our main rivals are fighting to retain their top flight status hurts.

[YankeeCanary 0]

Mr. Carrow''s input

Worthy''s post match comments have been the same for 30 games - work rate/effort etc- but managers at WBA. Palace and Southampton have all improved the defences and performances of struggling sides. Our manager and coaching staff have made absolutely no impact on performances and goals conceded all season. if anything it''s got worse.

Campbell reaction - Can''t argue with that.

Campbell Summary - Under the circumstances, Worthington has done a good job, and he will continue to do so next season, wherever we''re playing our football.

I fail to follow your logic Campbell. Your own two inputs are clearly contradictory. Clearly, Mr Carrow''s point is that, under Nigel and current coaching staff, things have gotten worse on overall performance and goals conceded as the season wore on, while our competitors have shown some improvement.

[FatMan Fat 0]

I dont agree that Worthy is the man to bring us back up again.

He was responsible for the players that we signed, some of whom were simply not good enough

He is responsible for the lack of tactics and strategies that have caused to have one of the worst results ever recorded for a season in the top flight

Why on earth would you want to risk him repeating the debacle again in a year''s time - assuming of course that we managed to get promoted again.

And before anyone asks who to replace him with, I would seriously suggest - George Burley

This is a manager who has proven that he understands how to coach and how to improve a team. He would be the man for me

 

[Tumbleweed 106]

Personally I am at a loss as to where the fault lies: players, worthy or coaches. Maybe the answer is a combination of all three. All season we have been less than the sum of our parts and gone from being 21 points ahead of Palace to 6 behind despite spending record amounts of money. I have said it before that I think changes are needed to the coaching staff in the summer, get rid of Holt, Flem and Francis and give Worthy 15 games.

Remember- last season we were consistently outplayed for stretches of many matches and somehow won a lot of them. I doubt that will happen again on a regular basis so we cannot assume Worthy will get us back first time.

Its not relegation which has me hurting, its the manner in which it is happening.

[Old Boy 0]

This is difficult for me to say, but here goes - I don''t think Worthy is up to it at this time. Maybe it''s the depression talking, but how we''ve played rather than our results have finally led me to say it. I expected to be relegated, and I don''t mind too much losing to Arsenal, or Chelsea, or even to Bolton. But the team looking so poorly organised and chaotic and lacking shape and even demotivated is enough to depress even the most optimistic Canary. Worthy needs guidance, and I see a role for Bobby Robson, or someone similar. Someone with masses of experience but with no long-term ambition to be manager, who can be a mentor to Worthy and teach him the art of being a successful coach. FIFA''s Brownie badges don''t do that.

[Campbell 0]

[quote]Mr. Carrow''s input Worthy''s post match comments have been the same for 30 games - work rate/effort etc- but managers at WBA. Palace and Southampton have all improved the defences and performances of ...[/quote]

You''re only quoting one small part of my reply to Mr Carrow''s post and then part of my summary. If you selectively quote, you often miss the whole picture, which you have.

You would note that in my ''conclusion'' I alluded to Worthington not having any Premiership experience...the other teams down with us have got a manager with that. Where Palace don''t have that...they have 18 goal Andy Johnson in their side, and that makes a huge difference. Is it Worthington''s fault he''s never managed in the toughest and arguably best league in the world? Is it Worthington''s fault we don''t have an 20 goal a season man in our squad? Is it Worthington''s fault that to buy such a player is well out of our price range?

Is it Worthington''s fault that Edworthy and Fleming are so inept?! Yes, he could change it, and I think he should, but would it really make that much difference in the end? Helveg has only just come back from injury, and Charlton is a left sided centre back, as is Doherty apparently. I don''t buy that myself, but Fleming is captain and that''s why he''s in the side. I just wonder if the quality at the back is just lacking full stop. Shackell has been good and done well, but things haven''t improved at all. Anyway, back to the issue at hand:

I was saying I couldn''t argue with the fact that Worthington says the same things after the game, and that the other managers have improved their teams. But, if you look at the bigger picture, then you would see that Worthington has done a good under the circumstances.

There are aspects of Worthington''s performance this season I haven''t been happy with, there have been aspects where I think he''s done well...and (the important phrase here) under the circumstances Worthington has done well.

[alex_ncfc 644]

I agree with all of this, and just as a team who were apparently ''doomed'' just weeks ago have won their third in a row to go joint level with those outside the relegation places. We are stupidly adrift at the bottom now and it just looks like getting worse. So much for spirit and commitment we keep hearing about in his post match scripts, I don''t think there''s been any amongst our players for months. While those above us continue to plug away, battling for survival and giving it their all.

It''s a sad situation, and there''s only one person to blame.

And while i''m here, just a quick prediciton for Fleming''s interview headline this coming week? I''ll go for "We still have the belief"!!

[YankeeCanary 0]

Campbell, I understand now that you have expressed yourself more clearly. You were the one that reacted to Mr Carrow point by point. Therefore, I was not "selectively quoting", I was referring to the specific point Mr Carrow made, namely, that our performance under our manager and coaches, if anything had gotten worse. In your first post you agreed with his point, period. You corrected yourself in your second post by saying you only meant to agree with the first sentence expressed by Mr Carrow in that point, not the essence of his point. Ergo, the confusion. Don''t worry...we all make mistakes.

[Campbell 0]

[quote]Campbell, I understand now that you have expressed yourself more clearly. You were the one that reacted to Mr Carrow point by point. Therefore, I was not "selectively quoting", I was referring to the ...[/quote]

You selectively quoted that part of my post to make a point, and tried to back it up by taking just a part of my ''conclusion'' -If you had taken the whole of my post, or even the whole of my conclusion! then you wouldn''t have been able to make an issue about it. That''s the foundation of it.

If you would have read the entire post and processed it properly, then you would see there is not a point up for argument. I do agree with everything Mr Carrow says with regard to that point, I admit so in my last post...However, in my first post, I go on to say that Worthington has done a good job under the circumstances. Worthington can only work with what he has, and that is some decent First Division players and one or two decent Premiership players. That doesn''t mean I don''t think Worthington has been faultless or has done things wrong.

I''ll say it again: Under the circumstances, Worthington has done a good job...Which is the most important point of all. It''s the crux of my whole post!

[Mook 0]

The Old Boy is right. It''s not so much the losing, it''s more to do with HOW we are losing.

No movement. No passing ability. Poor touch (Ashton excepted, but I wonder how soon "Worthy''s school of long distance running" will have that nasty trait knocked out of him).

Poor organisation. Clueless tactics. A fat old centre-mid on one wing, and a striker on the other. LOTS of talented replacements on the bench - Helveg, McVeigh, Safri, Shackell (until recently), Doherty (he''s better than Fleming) etc etc.

Unhappy, unmotivated players. How many managers would let their players put in the performances that our lot have over the last couple of months?

And worst of all - NO SIGN OF IMPROVEMENT. None at all.

It''s painful to list all that stuff, it really is. But it''s true.

[TheMarshmallowMan 0]

Worthington has NOT done a good job in the slightest.

Why, when he has a squad of nearly 25 and viable alternates for poorly performing players has he failed to give some of them the start they deserve? I of course speak of Helveg and Safri. Further, why has he taken so long to introduce Shackell?

Why does he continue to forgoe Simon Charlton? Surely he must realise that up to Christmas with Charlton in the defence, we looked alot tighter, he bossed the back, and man marked the oppositions more influential players. Replaced with Doherty, we crumble.

Why has he overlooked Paul McVeigh on the right? He keeps switching between Stuart, Jonson and Bentley like he doesn''t know who''s better, so why not try McVeigh? It can''t be coincidental that the two or three times he''s played as sub he looks sharp and eager to win a place.

Why did Worthington rely on Ryan Jarvis and Danny Crow for substitutes during an injury crisis and completely omit Paul McVeigh?

Why has Worthy continued to spout the same post-match report? Is he a machine? We do work hard, yes, but there is substantial room for improvement! The Norwich City we had last year played better football than the team this year, I''m adamant.

Why have we adopted a "long ball" technique? It simply doesn''t work in this league!

Why did we stick so long with the obviously duff 4-5-1?

Why didn''t we purchase a striker in the summer? More importantly, why don''t we use our proven swedish international striker up front instead of right wing?

These are fairly simple but substantial mistakes. Most managers in this league should, could and would address them - but not Worthington. Yes, he''s young and learning but these are simple errors - most managers could identify them quickly.

I''m not devaluing the achievements Worthington has made, far from it. I think every man has his limit, and just like Gary Megson, I think Nigel Worthington is not and will never be a Premiership manager. I doubt his tactical and managerial ability and I doubt his capacity to learn this required tactical and managerial ability. If we are to establish ourselves as a decent Premiership team, I think we are ONLY going to be doing that under the guidance of another manager. 

[TheMarshmallowMan 0]

[quote]The Old Boy is right. It''s not so much the losing, it''s more to do with HOW we are losing. No movement. No passing ability. Poor touch (Ashton excepted, but I wonder how soon "Worthy''s school of long...[/quote]

I can''t agree with you more. Brilliant post.

[Chunky Canary 0]

Good post Andrew. Agree completely except next seasons predictions. It will be a case of role reversal with Ipswich in the Premier and City in the Championship. Worthy out now.

[Dame to Blame 95]

[quote]The Old Boy is right. It''s not so much the losing, it''s more to do with HOW we are losing. No movement. No passing ability. Poor touch (Ashton excepted, but I wonder how soon "Worthy''s school of long...[/quote]

Well if i remember rightly , at various stages throught out the season players like Helveg, McVeigh, Safri and Doherty have been slagged off when playing some part this season , now all of a sudden they are our saviours and that worthy should be picking them what a load of old trosh some of you talk , poor old worthy has no chance with such fickle fans the bloke can''t win pick them he gets slagged off don''t pick them get slagged off , lets face the facts worthy had little chance of making an impression this season because the whole squad lacks quality, who ever he picked i fear the same result 9 times out of 10. Put yourself in the place of all the other premier clubs who all have established squads, and player for player are way ahead of us , now if you supported one of these sides you would be well gutted to lose to such an avarage side as what we have, so what makes you think that we should get more out of these games than we do lets face we are short of quality.You can huff and puff for so long but in the end the technically better players will come out on top , and over a long hard season you will get found out as norwich have, who basically have just run out of steam .

[First Wizard 0]

[quote]You selectively quoted that part of my post to make a point, and tried to back it up by taking just a part of my ''conclusion'' -If you had taken the whole of my post, or even the whole of my conclusion...[/quote]

''Under the circumstances he''s done a good job''. Oh, that''s all right then!.

Jeez, I''m lost for words.

I''d hate to think what you define as a bad job pal!. 

[Mook 0]

Thing is, BarclayendBoy, I''m not saying they are our saviours. I''m just saying they are better than those we are currently playing.

After the 3rd game of the season, it was plainly obvious that Fleming was COMPLETELY out of his depth. And here we are in APRIL and he still hasn''t been dropped. In fact, he''s now captain!! And Edworthy over Helveg? Don''t get me started. Holt over Safri? McKenzie up front with Huckerby stranded on the left?

You are completely right, we have run out of steam. Problem is, we ran out in December.

And ask yourself this - why did we run out of steam? Because we don''t have any freshness to our approach. "We''ll just keep doing the same thing until it works" is not the way to run a team.

Our reserves are not good enough. We are not missing strength in depth, we are actually missing ENTIRE POSITIONS!! Do we have a left winger? Brennan - no. Bentley - no. Huckerby - sorry, no. And a right winger? Well, that''s even more embarassing. Nigel has messed it up big time. It will take seasons to get the balance of the team right again.

[FatMan Fat 0]

Mook - I am surprised at you

You forgot to mention our other two "wingers" - Jarvis and Henderson.

Or are they strikers?  I can''t remember as it some time since they played in that position

The fact is, Mook is correct in that it is going to take time to get the balance of the team correct again. And who is the man who will have to do it - Mr W -the very same who has caused the problems