norfolkbroadslim 223 Posted May 23, 2012 Does the club have any assets left (not players) that it can sell to help generate funds for a new stand? If there were to be naming rights that would generate a bit, but it probably wouldn''t touch the sides. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norfolkbroadslim 223 Posted May 23, 2012 Anybody have any idea how much the seats infront of the hotel will cost? Do we know if they are going to be of a temporary nature or more like a proper mini stand/corner (more permanent)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canary-N 0 Posted May 23, 2012 The cost per match for a ST is much lower than fans without, those paying £43 to £53 are paying twice as much to attend to compete for the limited seats. If you attend just over half the games a ST works out cheaper still. Unless the regular seats drop in price when the capacity is significantly expanded, I dont see that there will be any significant drop in ST holders. Last numbers I saw was to get on the list is a £50 fee and a 1700 long list, and then you may get a seat in the N&P, up the top, behind a pillar.I wasnt at the game last night, because its a midweek game, and I have to work, it is a 2 1/2 hour journey from place of work to the ground so it is just not possible to get there without taking a day off work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shefcanary 2,389 Posted May 23, 2012 It is a tricky one, the when should we extend capacity of the stadium. Financial Fair Play coming in in two seasons time may mean we may have misssed the boat already on this one. With playing salaries fixed to potential income generation, one of the only ways of increasing income significantly in the future is from expanding the stadium capcity and thus increasing ticket income. McNally is quite rightly waiting until we are in a position to arrange new borrowing facilities linked directly to income generation before proceeding with this (that is end of next season). However the risk is that if at the end of next season a few other clubs with smaller capacities than ours are relegated and replaced by clubs with higher capacities our income generation capability will be at a distinct disadvantage to the rest of the Premier league (unless we have qualified for Europe). At the end of the day the FFP marker will be based on potential to generate income, not necessarily based on actual income. So it could still mean underused capacity but we won''t be at such a disadvantage on salary payment potential, although financially whether we''d want to play that game is very doubtful unless that Russian billionaire is in charge at the time!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 5,554 Posted May 23, 2012 A useful comparison piece in today''s Guardian on season ticket prices:http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/22/premier-league-clubs-season-tickets Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Brownstone 0 Posted May 23, 2012 Very valid question Nutty. I wondered the same myself as I looked around at all the empty seats last night. I''m not criticising anyone, I appreciate that people live away, were on holiday, couldn''t afford it etc, but I honestly thought there would be a few more there. That being said, the way I see it is that it''s a bit of a risk, but one we need to take. I convinced a few work mates to go last night who hadn''t been before and they absolutelt loved it, so much so in fact that they rang the box office at 9am and joined the season ticket waiting list. You know what they were told? They could expect to get a ticket in about 3 years! Sorry to ask you to do this but cast your mind back to the days of Walker''s 2nd spell, Hamilton and Rioch, attendences we pretty poor, (as was the football!) I seem to recall a December evening against Grimsby in about 1998 that was attended by less than 10,000. We were fortunate to have the services of Andrew Cullen (I think) who ran lots of promotions to get families in, kids for a quid deals etc. As we all know, watching live football is bloody addictive and I bet many of those kids are season ticket holders today. What concerns me is that with us having so few casual tickets and available season tickets that we run the risk of missing out on a whole generation of youngsters. It sickens me to walk through the City and see kids in United or Chelsea shirts, but if the only football they get to see is on Sky or MOTD then it''s only going to get worse. I know plenty of people who don''t go because they can''t get tickets together too. I''m not saying we''d fill 33,000 every week, but we would for the top sides and we can run some deals to get new people for the others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Son Ova Gunn 165 Posted May 23, 2012 [quote user="Mr Brownstone"]Very valid question Nutty. I wondered the same myself as I looked around at all the empty seats last night. I''m not criticising anyone, I appreciate that people live away, were on holiday, couldn''t afford it etc, but I honestly thought there would be a few more there. That being said, the way I see it is that it''s a bit of a risk, but one we need to take. I convinced a few work mates to go last night who hadn''t been before and they absolutelt loved it, so much so in fact that they rang the box office at 9am and joined the season ticket waiting list. You know what they were told? They could expect to get a ticket in about 3 years! Sorry to ask you to do this but cast your mind back to the days of Walker''s 2nd spell, Hamilton and Rioch, attendences we pretty poor, (as was the football!) I seem to recall a December evening against Grimsby in about 1998 that was attended by less than 10,000. We were fortunate to have the services of Andrew Cullen (I think) who ran lots of promotions to get families in, kids for a quid deals etc. As we all know, watching live football is bloody addictive and I bet many of those kids are season ticket holders today. What concerns me is that with us having so few casual tickets and available season tickets that we run the risk of missing out on a whole generation of youngsters. It sickens me to walk through the City and see kids in United or Chelsea shirts, but if the only football they get to see is on Sky or MOTD then it''s only going to get worse. I know plenty of people who don''t go because they can''t get tickets together too. I''m not saying we''d fill 33,000 every week, but we would for the top sides and we can run some deals to get new people for the others. [/quote]Quality post and couldnt agree more Mr Brownstone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,509 Posted May 23, 2012 It is a great post Mr Brownstone. But what concerns me is the cost of increasing capacity. It may well mean a complete new build of the city stand which would be expensive and also would probably reduce ticket income for a season whilst the work was done. It''s a gamble and I wonder how many cases there are of it paying off. Certainly not Wolves or us. But you''re right about the Celtic game bringing in new fans. Young fans too because I''ll wager the average age of the crowd last night was far lower than a normal league game. You are right about Andrew Cullen too. But for me the biggest factor was Worthy turning the club around and the run to the play-offs. That finalat Cardiff was the first game for many younger fans who remain to this day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Brownstone 0 Posted May 23, 2012 I know where you''re coming from there Nutty, where at a bit if a crossroads. We''re about to become (externally) debt free in the next 12 months and I''d very much like to keep it that way, but without increasing our revenue we''re unlikely to be able to have a sustained period at the right end of the top flight table. Catch 22.Just a point on the City Stand, I''m pretty sure that like the Jarrold it was built with a footing capable of taking another cantilevered tier, so a total rebuild wouldn''t be necessary.I don''t know how many season ticket holders there are in that stand but I wouldn''t mind betting they''d struggle to find enough spare seats dotted around the ground if they had to move them for a year. You''d certainly kiss goodbye to any casual tickets.Still it''s a nice problem to have when you compare it to those dark days I mention earlier... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mello Yello 2,281 Posted May 23, 2012 I would have loved to have been in attendance last night for AD''s special evening.....Unfortunately, I had to attend work, to pay for my season ticket..... Tim Sheppards special evening against Celtic all those years ago, still remains in my memory though. Wonder how many fellow ST holders, were in attendance for that game I wonder? The old South Stand was absolutely chocker with Hoops supporters......that evening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aggy 752 Posted May 23, 2012 How many are on the season ticket waiting list at the moment? I think that is something you would also have to take into account. Whilst having more casual tickets available might mean less season ticket sales, on the other hand, there are (I''m lead to believe) a lot of people who can''t get a season ticket at the moment. I''d probably agree that a rebuilding of the entire stand or something similarly expansive might well be a bit too risky/expensive. However, if we can find a way of adding an extra 5 or 10 thousand seats or so that isn''t going to involve the complete rebuilding of a stand, then I think we''d still sell out the large majority of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grantroederdisaster 0 Posted May 23, 2012 Iv'' e never got the old arguement that many of the doomongers chuck out that extra capacity would = less season ticket holders cause many ST holders would be able to get casual tickets earlier! I''d suggest that most ST holders purchase one like me firstly because the price of ST''s is very good while casual prices are too much. I certainly couldn''t afford to be a regular casual fan. A midweek friendly game after the seasons finished in tough economic times isn''t a marker to suggest we don''t need extra capacity! Averaging 24,000+ for 6 consecutive seasons after the completion of the Jarold stand, including one season in the 3rd Division, then averaging 25,000 and then 26,000+ in the next two seasons, games this season selling out within hours despite soem standdard seats being £50+ all indicates that increasing capacity to an eventual 35-40,000 is completely justifiable! I think, or rather know for a fact we''d of averaged 32,000+ this season had our ground held 35-40,000 this season and whether you agree or not, stadium expansion goes hand in hand with trying to improve the club and make it bigger! Some of you doomongers make it sound like we struggle to get 20,000 for League games! I think our average % of our complete capacity sold is only beaten by Man U and Arsenal which again indicates capacity increases are justified! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,509 Posted May 24, 2012 Why all the doomongering Granty? Where would you get the finance from to up the capacity to 35,000? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted May 24, 2012 [quote user="nutty nigel"]Where would you get the finance from to up the capacity to 35,000? [/quote] ??? Are you suggesting that the Smiths, Bowkett and McNally don''t know what they''re about with respect to the club''s finances? OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted May 24, 2012 [quote user="grantroederdisaster"]Iv'' e never got the old arguement that many of the doomongers chuck out that extra capacity would = less season ticket holders cause many ST holders would be able to get casual tickets earlier! I''d suggest that most ST holders purchase one like me firstly because the price of ST''s is very good while casual prices are too much. I certainly couldn''t afford to be a regular casual fan. A midweek friendly game after the seasons finished in tough economic times isn''t a marker to suggest we don''t need extra capacity! Averaging 24,000+ for 6 consecutive seasons after the completion of the Jarold stand, including one season in the 3rd Division, then averaging 25,000 and then 26,000+ in the next two seasons, games this season selling out within hours despite soem standdard seats being £50+ all indicates that increasing capacity to an eventual 35-40,000 is completely justifiable! I think, or rather know for a fact we''d of averaged 32,000+ this season had our ground held 35-40,000 this season and whether you agree or not, stadium expansion goes hand in hand with trying to improve the club and make it bigger! Some of you doomongers make it sound like we struggle to get 20,000 for League games! I think our average % of our complete capacity sold is only beaten by Man U and Arsenal which again indicates capacity increases are justified![/quote]Whats not to get?I, for one, can''t make every game, due to work commitments. But I have had to renew my 3 season tickets every season, not just because I want to go to the games, but because there would be no chance of me getting casual tickets. If I could rock up at carrow road on a Saturday and buy 3 tickets with easer then I would consider not renewing my season tickets.Its all about supply and demand, there is currently more demand for seats than can be supplied. I genuinely don''t believe we will sell out a 35k stadium, for every single match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Son Ova Gunn 165 Posted May 24, 2012 [quote user="morty"][quote user="grantroederdisaster"]Iv'' e never got the old arguement that many of the doomongers chuck out that extra capacity would = less season ticket holders cause many ST holders would be able to get casual tickets earlier! I''d suggest that most ST holders purchase one like me firstly because the price of ST''s is very good while casual prices are too much. I certainly couldn''t afford to be a regular casual fan. A midweek friendly game after the seasons finished in tough economic times isn''t a marker to suggest we don''t need extra capacity! Averaging 24,000+ for 6 consecutive seasons after the completion of the Jarold stand, including one season in the 3rd Division, then averaging 25,000 and then 26,000+ in the next two seasons, games this season selling out within hours despite soem standdard seats being £50+ all indicates that increasing capacity to an eventual 35-40,000 is completely justifiable! I think, or rather know for a fact we''d of averaged 32,000+ this season had our ground held 35-40,000 this season and whether you agree or not, stadium expansion goes hand in hand with trying to improve the club and make it bigger! Some of you doomongers make it sound like we struggle to get 20,000 for League games! I think our average % of our complete capacity sold is only beaten by Man U and Arsenal which again indicates capacity increases are justified![/quote]Whats not to get?I, for one, can''t make every game, due to work commitments. But I have had to renew my 3 season tickets every season, not just because I want to go to the games, but because there would be no chance of me getting casual tickets. If I could rock up at carrow road on a Saturday and buy 3 tickets with easer then I would consider not renewing my season tickets.Its all about supply and demand, there is currently more demand for seats than can be supplied. I genuinely don''t believe we will sell out a 35k stadium, for every single match.[/quote] So if there was greater availability, you would attend the same amount of games, but pay a higher price for doing so as you pay casual ticket prices instead. club wins. As a business model a company which sells its product to the same 23,000 people each year while at the same time strangulating the introduction of new customers has many flaws and would the club not be better served losing some season ticket sales but increasing attendance even if its only by a thousand or so. The problems arise would be if club fortunes took a dip but as we have seen through our Div 1 exploits, our fan base is pretty loyal. having 4-5k empty seats during a game looks bad I agree but a risk most definately worth taking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted May 24, 2012 [quote user="Son Ova Gunn"][quote user="morty"][quote user="grantroederdisaster"]Iv'' e never got the old arguement that many of the doomongers chuck out that extra capacity would = less season ticket holders cause many ST holders would be able to get casual tickets earlier! I''d suggest that most ST holders purchase one like me firstly because the price of ST''s is very good while casual prices are too much. I certainly couldn''t afford to be a regular casual fan. A midweek friendly game after the seasons finished in tough economic times isn''t a marker to suggest we don''t need extra capacity! Averaging 24,000+ for 6 consecutive seasons after the completion of the Jarold stand, including one season in the 3rd Division, then averaging 25,000 and then 26,000+ in the next two seasons, games this season selling out within hours despite soem standdard seats being £50+ all indicates that increasing capacity to an eventual 35-40,000 is completely justifiable! I think, or rather know for a fact we''d of averaged 32,000+ this season had our ground held 35-40,000 this season and whether you agree or not, stadium expansion goes hand in hand with trying to improve the club and make it bigger! Some of you doomongers make it sound like we struggle to get 20,000 for League games! I think our average % of our complete capacity sold is only beaten by Man U and Arsenal which again indicates capacity increases are justified![/quote]Whats not to get?I, for one, can''t make every game, due to work commitments. But I have had to renew my 3 season tickets every season, not just because I want to go to the games, but because there would be no chance of me getting casual tickets. If I could rock up at carrow road on a Saturday and buy 3 tickets with easer then I would consider not renewing my season tickets.Its all about supply and demand, there is currently more demand for seats than can be supplied. I genuinely don''t believe we will sell out a 35k stadium, for every single match.[/quote] So if there was greater availability, you would attend the same amount of games, but pay a higher price for doing so as you pay casual ticket prices instead. club wins. As a business model a company which sells its product to the same 23,000 people each year while at the same time strangulating the introduction of new customers has many flaws and would the club not be better served losing some season ticket sales but increasing attendance even if its only by a thousand or so. The problems arise would be if club fortunes took a dip but as we have seen through our Div 1 exploits, our fan base is pretty loyal. having 4-5k empty seats during a game looks bad I agree but a risk most definately worth taking. [/quote]But I wouldn''t pay more, I work offshore so depending on fixtures I only make half of the games in a season, I''m paying for the ones I can''t make!I think its a tricky call, as when you add more seats you are losing money every time that seat is empty, until the whole thing is paid for.Its a pity there isn''t a "halfway" option. I think we could average about 30k, with peaks at 33 or 34 for the "big" games. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,509 Posted May 24, 2012 [quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="nutty nigel"] Where would you get the finance from to up the capacity to 35,000? [/quote] ??? Are you suggesting that the Smiths, Bowkett and McNally don''t know what they''re about with respect to the club''s finances? OTBC [/quote] What is it with you that you find it impossible to contribute to a reasnable debate? If the board don''t have a money tree then the finance will have to come from somewhere. Where would you get it from? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted May 24, 2012 [quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="nutty nigel"] Where would you get the finance from to up the capacity to 35,000? [/quote] ??? Are you suggesting that the Smiths, Bowkett and McNally don''t know what they''re about with respect to the club''s finances? OTBC [/quote] What is it with you that you find it impossible to contribute to a reasnable debate? If the board don''t have a money tree then the finance will have to come from somewhere. Where would you get it from? [/quote] It''s not a reasonable debate. It''s a fundamentally silly debate when you use as your marker the attendance at an out of season, Tuesday night friendly match. But you''ll have your way, and the debate will no doubt continue. If you want to start a sensible debate about how an increase in capacity could be funded, you could start start by looking at the club''s 7 year plan (now under review), the Norfolk economy and population trends, household expenditure patterns, potential revenue streams from the Middle and Far East (plus the USA), property prices, world television trends, and the emerging domestic and international regulatory environment as it pertains to Premiership and Championship clubs. But I doubt that you will. OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lappinitup 629 Posted May 24, 2012 [quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]It''s not a reasonable debate. It''s a fundamentally silly debate when you use as your marker the attendance at an out of season, Tuesday night friendly match.But you''ll have your way, and the debate will no doubt continue. If you want to start a sensible debate about how an increase in capacity could be funded, you could start start by looking at the club''s 7 year plan (now under review), the Norfolk economy and population trends, household expenditure patterns, potential revenue streams from the Middle and Far East (plus the USA), property prices, world television trends, and the emerging domestic and international regulatory environment as it pertains to Premiership and Championship clubs. But I doubt that you will.[/quote]That''s an awful lot of waffle rather than answer the question Bly.How would you fund a new stand? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted May 24, 2012 [quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]It''s not a reasonable debate. It''s a fundamentally silly debate when you use as your marker the attendance at an out of season, Tuesday night friendly match. But you''ll have your way, and the debate will no doubt continue. If you want to start a sensible debate about how an increase in capacity could be funded, you could start start by looking at the club''s 7 year plan (now under review), the Norfolk economy and population trends, household expenditure patterns, potential revenue streams from the Middle and Far East (plus the USA), property prices, world television trends, and the emerging domestic and international regulatory environment as it pertains to Premiership and Championship clubs. But I doubt that you will.[/quote]That''s an awful lot of waffle rather than answer the question Bly.How would you fund a new stand?[/quote] Well Laps, I reckon that this thread is too corrupted for such a debate. Maybe you could start a new thread along the lines of "How I would fund a new stand; what about you?", and put forward your suggestions on which I would be very happy to comment on - time permitting. ''Unfortunately'' borrowing will be necessary and the lenders will want to know how they will be repaid which will involve analysing much of what you term ''fluff'' and much more........... [C] OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,509 Posted May 24, 2012 So the poster who starts all kinds of meaningless threads from srtuff he googles has decreed that my thread from something I actually went to is meaningless. You couldn''t make it up. And the googlemeister''s answer is : - No debate is neccessary because the people in charge will know how to deal with it. So that just about covers every thread on this messageboard. No point in discussing anything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norfolkbroadslim 223 Posted May 24, 2012 Nutty, if or more realistically when capacity is increased / a new stand built, do you think that the board will make the right decisions with regards to the funding of it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,509 Posted May 24, 2012 History at our club, and others, would say no ''slim. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlyBlyBabes 0 Posted May 24, 2012 [quote user="nutty nigel"]So the poster who starts all kinds of meaningless threads from srtuff he googles has decreed that my thread from something I actually went to is meaningless. You couldn''t make it up. And the googlemeister''s answer is : - No debate is neccessary because the people in charge will know how to deal with it. So that just about covers every thread on this messageboard. No point in discussing anything. [/quote] OTBC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norfolkbroadslim 223 Posted May 24, 2012 I am a bit surprised by your response Nutty. Personally I think now with the likes of McNally and Bowkett the right decisions would be made. I''d be surprised and obviously more than disappointed if they weren''t. Obviously the playing squad is so important, but perhaps an increase in capacity could be provided in another way. Rather than just lumping ourselves with a £20m debt nearly as soon as the current one is cleared a period of being externally debt free could allow us to (for as long as we remain in the Prem) save towards the building of the new stand, whilst also having a period where we are not shelling out loads in interest. Some or all of the money that we have been paying towards the current debt could be put aside until we have got the £20m (obviously we''d earn a canny bit in interest) to increase the capacity. Alternatively some or all of the additional money we get from finishing higher than x position whether that be 17th or whatever could be saved. Should we get relegated, then those plans could be put on hold and if we need to dip into the savings rather than take out a loan then so be it. There could be different ways to look at the best possible solution - whether that would be saving 25, 50, 75 or 100% of the cost would need to be looked into. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,509 Posted May 24, 2012 There just seems to be a trend where clubs who spend big sums on their stadiums pay the price with the team. Not just us. What makes you think McNally and Bowkett are so much better than people in those positions at other clubs? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,509 Posted May 24, 2012 And I''m still not convinced we''d fill the stadium. I think Tuesdays friendly is relevant. A normal league game on a tuesday night would have been available to watch elsewhere. I wouldn''t mind betting that the numbers of those watching on tv and the internet is increasing at a much faster rate than the ST waiting list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BroadstairsR 2,138 Posted May 24, 2012 There are several reasons why we should consider ground expansion if feasable at the end of next season should we remain in the Premiership.: (1) The demand is clearly there for a 30 -35, 000 capacity ground (no bigger IMO.) whether we maintain our Premier League status or whether we drop down a tier as a result of the 2012-13 campaign. We are likely to be contenders at Championship level for some time (sound finances/parachutes etc.) and may even be yo-yoing. We will maitain the support either way IMO. (2) Successful businesses should always seek to advance and increase revenue further and we are currently successful. Not to improve the ground in the time-scale mentioned would be a missed opportunity. (3) The present City Stand is very much our poorest stand now. It''s size is disproportionate to the rest of the ground and it''s facilities are dated. It was built on a shoestring and it shows. It is after all the Main Stand and it cries out for either replacenment or expansion. (4) In the Board, McNally and Bowkett I trust. I do not think that they would undertake a venture which would -put the Club back in serious hock. If their feasability studies make expansion the correct route to take, I adhere.I would expect that some sort of financial assistance is being explored ala King Power Stadium etc. If it means changing the label on the tin, so be it. It will always be the same NCFC inside. (5) Bragging rights. Having a bigger ground is a status symbol in the World of Football, something to be even more proud of IMO. Petty maybe, but that scruffy Portaloo is bigger and I would like one more seat than they have for a starters. I appreciate N/N''s concerns and he makes valid points, but feel that these would only become truly valid if we undertook too big an expansion. A 35, 000 stadium seems about right to me. Certainly us exiles would find it easier to see more games, I currently rely on the odd occasion when a season ticket holder cannot attend. True, I haven''t even bothered to explore means of getting a casual ticket for some time now as I cannot undertake overmuch forward planning. . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yorkshire Canary 118 Posted May 24, 2012 I went to the celtic game and it was a fantasic evening it really was. 18500 wasa in my view a good gate for a testimonial. If we expanded the groung with increased away support i am sure we could get regular attendences up to around 35000. We are a county team in the premiership and this county is growing all the time populationwise Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
