Cheating and Chickens

[lake district canary 0]

Players have made football a difficult sport to watch in recent years.   The constant diving, falling over, tryiing to get penalties. 

The latest one that I saw just made me laugh.  Ashley Young runs into the penalty area, the defender just stands still, knowing he can''t go near the player. So what does Ashley Young do?  Steps towards the defender and puts his foot out to the left so that he falls over the foot of the defender - a blatant attempt at cheating.  The referee delights in awarding the penalty, the pundits say - "definite penalty - although he went over easily".  Its absolutely laughable.  

But it happens all the time.  I watch a lot of different sports and I struggle to find any sport where cheating is so blatant and is condoned by the commentators.    A goal keeper dives towards an attackers feet to get the ball - and the  player is on his way down even before there is any kind of contact.    You will say thats life, get used to it.  For me it spoils the game.  

Then you get the legitimate penalties that aren''t given - Tevez on Saturday - referees can''t tell now when a player is genuinely fouled or is just cheating - so it serves the players right when they don''t get a penalty - it really is a case of chickens coming home to roost.

My solution?  Ban penalties for all but obvious misdemeanours such as clear hand ball.   If a player goes down dubiously - just give a free kicks in the penalty area instead.  That will cut out the nonsense as it will not be quite so easy to score from a free kick. 

Make it harder for the cheats to get away with it. 

 

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

Banning penalties would be incredibly harsh on players that are actually fowled in the box...chickens...[;)]

[Ruddygore 0]

I can remember a german sports teacher telling me twenty-five years ago that german children were taught how to dive during football lessons. These days everyone cheats to gain a level playing field it seems.

Players diving in the box maybe ought to get the odd RED card, no rhyme or reason, just dependent on how the ref feels at the time, his interpretation so to speak. Players would soon enough begin to question their chances. Of course, it''s arbitrary, not just, not fair, but as paying fans, the customers so to speak we don''t pay to watch cheating but supposedly a fair contest of skill etc etc...

Same with dissent, simple red card, dissent will soon cease.

It''s all about setting a standard but the FA do not have the balls.

[marvin the martian 0]

I was thinking about starting a thread on this too. Young cheated, no argument. What really annoys me is pundits ( Shearer in particular) who come out with the old " contact was made " quote. If I touch someone on the shoulder in a pub they don''t fall over !! Lee Dixon disappointed me last night as he said it too .   The easiest way to deal with it would be to give retrospective cards to the players that dive, if that was done then Young would now be looking at a three match ban.

[chicken 0]

Erm . . .

I think they need video replay. The fact that it would eat up time would probably act as a bit of a deterrant too. Obviously all at the Ref''s control.

People that say it should be like tennis and they have x amount of challenges is just silly. Ref has full control, if he wants to check it he can. If it wasn''t a foul and a pen just give a goal kick. If it was a dive give a yellow etc.

The problem I have is the complete lack of common sense seen these days. Penalties should only be given for a blatant foul or for the denying of a goal scoring oppertunity. Same as free kicks.

Tevez on Saturday was not a pen in my mind. Yes there was contact but it was minimal and he had lost the ball with his last touch anyway. If he had been clean through or still in control of the ball then fair enough. I would hope it would deter people with nothing else on just getting over the line into the box and looking for the first bit of contact to throw themselves to the ground.

My personal frustration is with the strikers that go in shoulder to shoulder with a defender, realise they arn''t going to beat them for strength and go down. It''s not a foul according to the laws of the game but how many times do you see them given?

[Jacko 0]

You can''t ban penalties for all but the most blatant offences. Firstly how do establish between which offences warrant a penalty and which don''t? How bad does a foul have to be to warrant a penalty and how would that be determined? It would be far too arbitrary.

There is an incredibly fine (and very blurred) line between so called gamesmanship and cheating. Ultimately players are going to make the most of contact in the area because if they don''t more often than not players wont get the decision. How many times have you seen a player attempt to stay on his feet and not get the decision only for a pundit to say "He was too honest there, he should have gone down."

But clear cheating where a player either dives without any contact or deliberately hangs out a leg to ensure they are "caught" by the defender should be stamped out.

[Aggy 752]

Chicken - in fairness to Tevez, Bennett put his foot on top of Tevez''s. It''s hard to continue running when someone has essentially pinned your foot to the ground from above. If it had been a slight brush then I''d agree, but in that instance, it was a penalty in my opinion.

There isn''t much you can do to be honest. I''m hesitant about red cards for diving, as then if it turns out it wasn''t actually a dive, the team is not only being denied an actual penalty, but also playing with one less man. Think about if Tevez had been sent off rather than booked at the weekend - it would have been extremely harsh given that it should have been a penalty!

As for freekicks instead of penalties, how is it going to work? What if a player is clean through and gets hacked down by a defender at the last minute? Is that a penalty? If so, what happens if it transpires he dived then as well? And even if you''re awarding a freekick, surely it''s rewarding a dive? Whilst it would be rewarding simulation with a lesser award than a penalty, it is also rewarding a genuine foul with less than the striker deserves.

For me, there''s little you can do. This won''t happen, but I feel it would be interesting, is if a dive resulted in a 5 or 10 minute sin bin. Did the yellow card affect Tevez''s performance? Not really. So had he genuinely have dived (I don''t think he did, but if he had have done), he would have got away with it essentially scot free. The risk of getting an almost meaningless yellow card compared with the chances of winning a penalty makes it worth the risk. The risk of getting a 10 minute sin bin compared with winning a penalty is nowhere near the risk, as the team is going to struggle greatly.

Of course that will never happen, firstly because it''s too far estranged from the way the game is currently played, and secondly because detractors of the plan would say it would lead to boring football - 10 men would park the bus until the extra man came back on.

[Aggy 752]

Sorry - meant to say as well that although you would still see wrong decisions where a player was unfairly being sin binned, it would only be for 10 minutes rather than a whole game. Yet hopefully there would be less wrong decisions, because the players would see the risk that their diving holds, stop doing it, and the refs would begin to be less sceptical.

[lake district canary 0]

I can see the problems in trying to stamp out the problem of cheating.   It is just that it is so obvious to most of us when it is happening when you see it on TV   yet the pundits continually say - ''definite penalty'' ''contact was made'' etc etc.    I''m so fed up with pundits going on about this when it is patently obvious they are wrong.      Its almost like these ex players are actually condoning cheating - manipulating the viewer into their way of thinking.  

The pundits see the same pictures as us but come out with the wrong answers.    They are as good as supporting cheating.     I remember the Andrew Johnson penalty afew years ago where he had the ball in front of Malky Mackay and as he went past him he went down as if their had been an expolsion.  Malky just laughed at him, as he had just stood there - but it was still a penalty - supported by all and sundry on the tv..    Its been going on for years as has the conspiracy of the pundits - ex players who do not like to admit that the cheating is rife in the sport.   After all it is  their mates who they will be accusing - if they tell it as it is.  They never will though.   

Like a previous poster said - the FA - who could do something - don''t have the willpower or  inclination to do anything about it.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Players have made football a difficult sport to watch in recent years.   The constant diving, falling over, tryiing to get penalties.  
  






 

[/quote]

 

Brave of you to attack a Norwich City legend of recent memory like that, ldc! I applaud your honesty!!![:D]

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="Jacko"]You can''t ban penalties for all but the most blatant offences. Firstly how do establish between which offences warrant a penalty and which don''t? How bad does a foul have to be to warrant a penalty and how would that be determined? It would be far too arbitrary. There is an incredibly fine (and very blurred) line between so called gamesmanship and cheating. Ultimately players are going to make the most of contact in the area because if they don''t more often than not players wont get the decision. How many times have you seen a player attempt to stay on his feet and not get the decision only for a pundit to say "He was too honest there, he should have gone down." But clear cheating where a player either dives without any contact or deliberately hangs out a leg to ensure they are "caught" by the defender should be stamped out.[/quote]

 

So where does Young''s against QPR fit in with that?

 

Definite penalty and red card!?[:^)]

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Like a previous poster said - the FA - who could do something - don''t have the willpower or  inclination to do anything about it.





[/quote]

 

It''s a difficult one, and I hold my hands up.... I really do not know what the answer is.

 

Whilst I''m no apologist for the FA  (they''ve made some ridiculous cock ups year upon year), but I''m not sure whether they actually have carte blanche or the autonomy to bring in the sort of changes suggested by some above . My guess  is that for a basic set of rule changes like that, they''d have to run it by UEFA or even FIFA first . And, as we all know, the gnomes in Nyon and Zurich are even more stuck in the past than those at Lancaster Gate (or wherever the FA hang out thse days ).

 

Perhaps others know different, and it would be easy peasy for the FA to act, so , if so, maybe they could explain what would be entailed.

[lake district canary 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Players have made football a difficult sport to watch in recent years.   The constant diving, falling over, tryiing to get penalties.    [/quote]

 

Brave of you to attack a Norwich City legend of recent memory like that, ldc! I applaud your honesty!!![:D]

[/quote]

They all do it now!  Its part and parcel of the modern game.    It is just unpleasant to see anyone trying to con their way to an advantage - whoever it is and however legendary! [;)]

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="Aggy"]Chicken - in fairness to Tevez, Bennett put his foot on top of Tevez''s. It''s hard to continue running when someone has essentially pinned your foot to the ground from above. If it had been a slight brush then I''d agree, but in that instance, it was a penalty in my opinion. There isn''t much you can do to be honest. I''m hesitant about red cards for diving, as then if it turns out it wasn''t actually a dive, the team is not only being denied an actual penalty, but also playing with one less man. Think about if Tevez had been sent off rather than booked at the weekend - it would have been extremely harsh given that it should have been a penalty! As for freekicks instead of penalties, how is it going to work? What if a player is clean through and gets hacked down by a defender at the last minute? Is that a penalty? If so, what happens if it transpires he dived then as well? And even if you''re awarding a freekick, surely it''s rewarding a dive? Whilst it would be rewarding simulation with a lesser award than a penalty, it is also rewarding a genuine foul with less than the striker deserves. For me, there''s little you can do. This won''t happen, but I feel it would be interesting, is if a dive resulted in a 5 or 10 minute sin bin. Did the yellow card affect Tevez''s performance? Not really. So had he genuinely have dived (I don''t think he did, but if he had have done), he would have got away with it essentially scot free. The risk of getting an almost meaningless yellow card compared with the chances of winning a penalty makes it worth the risk. The risk of getting a 10 minute sin bin compared with winning a penalty is nowhere near the risk, as the team is going to struggle greatly. Of course that will never happen, firstly because it''s too far estranged from the way the game is currently played, and secondly because detractors of the plan would say it would lead to boring football - 10 men would park the bus until the extra man came back on.[/quote]

 

Personally I can''t think of much worse than the Americanised sin bins.

 

 

[William Darby 0]

IMO you have to get to the root of the problem.  Which is you have to fall over to win a free kick.  If a foul is a foul, why do you have to fall over? Players getting kicked and trying to play on and the ref gives nothing has caused it, and evolved into borderline diving.

[Aggy 752]

Seems to have worked alright in rugby Slim.

Just reading up on when the sin bin system was introduced into rugby - 99/2000 for those of you interested - and the piece I was reading said that yellow and red cards didn''t come into league games until 76 and were removed between 81 and 87. I thought they were around a lot longer than that - seems strange to me, being born in the 90s, that a good sized proportion of posters on here can probably remember a time when yellow and red cards weren''t regularly used at games!

Role Model - agreed.

[Aggy 752]

*that was they didn''t come into football league games until 76, not rugby games.

[Yellow Wal 314]

The Pink Un Role Model " IMO you have to get to the root of the problem.  Which is you have to fall over to win a free kick.  If a foul is a foul, why do you have to fall over? Players getting kicked and trying to play on and the ref gives nothing has caused it, and evolved into borderline diving."

 

Exactly so. When is the last time you saw a penalty given, in any football, for a foul when the fouled player hasn''t fell over?

I would also say that a ruling should come in whereby players were carded for going to ground too easily, whether it be by for being fouled or any form of ''contact'' at a confrontation. They do not seem to act like men anymore!

[SWP = Poor Mans Ruel Fox!! 0]

 

I think the only way to really clamp down on cheating is some kind of citation system, again stolen form rugby.  It is so difficult to spot whether they really are dives at the time of the game, the Tevez incident shows this exactly.  So why cant we have players brought before a panel for retrospective punishment for obvious cheating, like Young in the last two weeks for instance?  Punishments can range from a one game ban to more for repeating offenders. 

 

It would seem a good way to try and wrestle the beautiful game back from the cheaters, unfortunately this would require action from UEFA and FIFA and with Platini in and around power I can only see the situation getting worse not better.

[Monty13 2,229]

I really don''t understand the case against a Television Match Official (Video Ref) like they have in rugby. As one of the previous posts said these things are often obvious to us watching on TV, so why not have one in football? Its not like the ref would be calling him every 5 mins to decide which way to give a throw in, but on the really important calls, the game changers like penalty decisions, ball crossing line etc. it would take less than a minute for the ref to check with a video ref. This would happen maybe 2 or 3 times a game, sometimes never. Are we all that impatient? I would rather see the right decision given. I really don''t understand the arguments against, and why football refuses to move forward with the times.

[Cambridgeyellow 0]

I thought Ashley Young on Sunday was quite funny as the team that taught him to do it was indeed Aston Villa as the commentator pointed out.

If forwards were banned for diving most teams star player would be banned as everyone has one ( tin hat time ) even us lol. The unfortunate thing that stops further action is that for managers and fans alike when it is someone elses team it is cheating, when it is your own team there is either a case that the player did not dive or many a time you hear well x does it all the time. Who has spoken to any Man U supporters who will say Young dived - they all have a different perspective that they were both penalties.

The only way to get action is for people to call their own team players cheats and it aint ever going to happen as I like most others will be screaming at the ref to give a penalty or a freekick even if I know our player dived. And how on earth can you ever proove a player dived ? legally as UEFA found out it is very difficult to brand a player a cheat and not be threatened with all sorts of legal actions.

The Tevez situation on Saturday was a classic example. Most NCFC supporters were calling Tevez a cheat. Had this have been one of our players we would have immediately been advising the ref that he does not know what he is doing.

Diving should be eliminated but it will take somebody brave to openly brand any player a cheat. I wish there was a solution but I fear there wont be for a long time.

[Shankslad 0]

Like most people I too get frustrated with the modern trend in football of players diving around and where seemingly almost any form of contact is a foul - real or pretending the player will go down to exaggerate the most minimal of contact in order to "WIN" a foul or penalty.   Now that''s I term I never heard used.   "WINNING" a penalty or foul.   The term used to be "AWARDED".   Commentators and pundits use the concept of Winning fouls and penalties all the time.   To WIN something you must set out with that objective in mind.   Never mind practicing on the ball skills lets practice fooling people you''ve been fouled may be part of unofficial training these days.

 

I also notice a lot of American Football style blocking going on particularly at corners where players literally have hold of each other.   I remember when Jack Charlton caused such a stir when he decided to stand in front of the opposing goalie at corners!!  (Yeah, I''m THAT old!!!)

 

The FA''s insistence on not using technology is akin to a business refusing to use a computer because their typewriters still work!

[Shack Attack 0]

Cheating is so endemic these days that I have to just consider it part of the game and ignore it otherwise it would ruin every game for me. Everyone deserves a share of the blame from the administrators who have allowed money to corrupt the game and make an attempted dive worth it, to the players who do it, the managers who condone and encourage it, the fans who whinge about other teams cheating but conveniently ignore their own players antics and the pundits who insist that ''there was contact so he has a right to go down''. It has got worse over a number of years and I cannot see how the authorities are going to put a stop to it now. We''re simply too far down that road. Suck it up and hope your players are better cheats than the opposition. It''s the only way to stay sane when watching football these days.

[Shack Attack 0]

Thinking about this again surely the best thing that the FA/UEFA/FIFA could do is to send a directive to their referees stating that they should only give a foul if they are sure that contact has been made which is sufficient to cause a player to either lose possession or accept a pass/intercept the ball etc. Then they need to back the referees in the face of the criticism they will undoubtedly from managers and pundits claiming ''there was contact so it must be a foul''. The idea that any contact at all gives a player the right to fall to the floor and expect a foul to be given in their favour is at the heart of all of this cheating. It should only be a foul if an opponent impedes you to such an extent that you cannot carry out the action that you intended. Too many free kicks and penalties are being given for what are effectively collisions between two players which barely affect the likelihood of either reaching the ball.

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]

 We''re simply too far down that road. Suck it up and hope your players are better cheats than the opposition. It''s the only way to stay sane when watching football these days.

[/quote]

Its a sad day when a connoisseur of the beautiful game, as all norwich fans are, feel the have to accept the results of games sometimes boil down to who cheated best but I dont disagree that is what is happening.

Ashley Young in my view cheated not because he attempted to use his skill to draw a foul from the defender inside the box which is fine and in this respect "winning a penalty" could be a term used legitamately, but because he made contact with the defender not the other way around and proceeded to throw himself to the ground in a motion more befitting Tom Daley. He decieved the referee.

Players, managers and clubs will NOT tackle this problem (forgive the pun) because nobody will go first and give themselves a disadvantage, change will only come about through the governing bodies, fans and media and of those who will be the first to say enough is enough?... the fans as the media and governing bodies are reactive not proactive.

Fans need to stop applauding the dubious actions of their own players and that includes me who had a large grin and small cheer as Barton walked off. Rugby and cricket fans demand a certain amount of sportsmanship from their hero''s, why dont we? Once the media pick up on the fact that fans are sick of playacting, cheating, simulation they will change their tune and maybe start using phases such as ''awarded'' instead of ''won'' when a penalty is given.

As for the governing bodies, well if I would love to see anyone caught cheating, either live or retospectively on camera made to wear a pink armband in the next 3 games to highlight to the crowd and more importantly the ref that this player will cheat. Also I would make it a rule that in the event of a penalty, it cannot be converted by the person fouled as i think that would help a little bit also!

[lake district canary 0]

I know quite afew people who have become so disillusioned with modern day football that they no longer watch it at all.    Imo things will only change if enough people walk away from the game.  Then the authorities would think they need to do something about it.   

 

 

I keep harping on in my posts about Brian Clough, but one of his traits was he did not have any truck with his own players cheating.  He insisted on 100% honesty in his football teams - and that honesty included all aspects of the game so the players were 100% focused on the football.   No arguing with referees (look what happened against Everton) no falling over when you could stay on your feet, just complete honesty. Its sadly lacking these days.  

 

 

Even if you go back to the nineties our team were largely  ''honest''.   Ruel Fox never went down without reason. He would jump over feet, outstrectched legs etc.  It made the football that much more exciting to watch too. 

 

 

I think our present set up is as honest as you will find in the premiership and is partly why we do so well.   The funny thing is when you try and con the ref  it can backfire on you.    Holty is a whole hearted player - but can go down too easily - and he doesn''t always get away with it.  He would be better off cutting that out.    After all he was 100% honest going towards goal against Spurs, determined to get his shot away and stayed on his feet.   |I applauded him for staying on his feet - but the cynical view would be that he should have gone down earlier and would almost certainly been given a penalty.   

 

 

At the end of the day cheating is a choice.    Players would be better off and show more single mindedness if they just stayed honest.   If you are being tackled and are not 100% honest, part of your thinking will be taken up with waiting for a challenge at which you can fall over and get a free kick.  This is taking away your focus from what you are trying to do - go past a player, or whatever.    It is devaluing the very game you are trying to play.    If more players were honest, it would solve the problem.  But you would need the calibre of a Brian Clough (or a Paul Lambert?) to support that kind of honesty in their players.   

 

 

 

[star_manic 0]

it seems that the laws of the game are ignored by refs these days. there is a law that says a free kick shall be awarded for any use of an arm or hand to an opponents body. that is ANY use of the upper limbs is strictly against the laws of the game. i watched the 66 cup final again several months ago, and it was like watching a different sport. how has this, over many years now, seem to have been abandoned as a law of the game. each season the wrestling in the penalty area gets worse and nothing is done about it.[:@]

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

Of course we could always adopt the approach taken in horse racing after a fall. when someone takes a nasty tumble in the box in the manner Young did men rush onto the pitch with big black screens while the vet or in this case ''club doctor'' does his thing. I bet you''d only have to do it once :)

 

 

 

 

[SWP = Poor Mans Ruel Fox!! 0]

[quote user="Son Ova Gunn"]

Of course we could always adopt the approach taken in horse racing after a fall. when someone takes a nasty tumble in the box in the manner Young did men rush onto the pitch with big black screens while the vet or in this case ''club doctor'' does his thing. I bet you''d only have to do it once :)

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

I know he is a cheat but not sure he deserves putting down [;)]