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BlyBlyBabes

4-5-1 and 5-4-1 formations - some thoughts.

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Hughes set up QPR to play 4-5-1 today just Lambert set us up yesterday. Same result. A thrashing.

 

I just don''t think you can play this way against the top teams. It just invites too much pressure and comfortable possession for them which inevitably leads to a legion of chances and almost inevitably goals.

 

In my view, players below the very top level tend to perform better in conservatively set up 4-3-3 or 4-2-4 formations, which they understand more instinctively and are generally more comfortable with. They enable us to play higher up the field and hence play a higher pressing, high energy with more chances of nicking possession and creating more chances. 

 

Until now I have been a fan of Lamberts multiple tactical strategies, but I am beginning to have second thoughts - not because it is not a good stragtegy in and of itself - but because I am becoming increasingly doubtful that we have the players with the capacity needed to execute it well enough, even if highly motivated and organised.

 

OTBC

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

Hughes set up QPR to play 4-5-1 today just Lambert set us up yesterday. Same result. A thrashing.

 

I just don''t think you can play this way against the top teams. It just invites too much pressure and comfortable possession for them which inevitably leads to a legion of chances and almost inevitably goals.

 

In my view, players below the very top level tend to perform better in conservatively set up 4-3-3 or 4-2-4 formations, which they understand more instinctively and are generally more comfortable with. They enable us to play higher up the field and hence play a higher pressing, high energy with more chances of nicking possession and creating more chances. 

 

Until now I have been a fan of Lamberts multiple tactical strategies, but I am beginning to have second thoughts - not because it is not a good stragtegy in and of itself - but because I am becoming increasingly doubtful that we have the players with the capacity needed to execute it well enough, even if highly motivated and organised.

 

OTBC

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]The 4-5-1 has worked for us in the past, and will continue to work for us however I do see your point.One of the most impressive defensive displays Norwich have performed all season was the 0-0 against Chelsea, it featured a 4-4-2 formation with two defensive midfielders (Johnson and Fox) an out and out winger (Pilkington) and a wide midfielder (Surman). The players looked very comfortable in this rather conservative 4-4-2 formation and we kept a clean sheet.Tottenham away was rather similar. It was a slightly more offensive 4-4-2 (that is to say two wide midfielders acting as wingers and a central midfielder with more attacking instincts) although it should be noted that we only looked really defensively solid when E. Bennett dropped to RB and Russel Martin moved to CB.WBA got a very impressive clean sheet against Man City came playing a 4-4-2 with inverted wide midfielders and deep lying central midfielders.Tactical variation is an important aspect to what the coaching staff has achieved at Norwich. The 4-4-2 should be included in the formations we should play

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It probably is a case of using a system the players are comfortable with. Either that or give time for players to become comfortable with a new system. We tried three at the back and failed. Twice. But Wigan play it and have swept all before them. But Martinez was patient as was his chairman. For the last six games of this season we have been safe and it''s a window of opportunity to try out systems and blood young players (Bennett). I''d like to see us try three at the back again when Bennett is a bit more experienced and settled. Maybe it will suit Bennett and Ayala. I think Elliott Bennett would make a great right wing back. If Tierney''s fit and still here he would be suited to that role on the left. With maybe Bennett, Ward and Ayala the three defenders.

 

 

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Personally thought that there were too many cooks in midfield yesterday.     Five midfielders all trying to be fluid and doing a job - result poor shape to the team, too many spaces appeared which meant trouble for the defenders - especially given the wet conditions.   

 

The fluid system needs players to instinctively know what other players around them are likely to do.     Fox looked uncertain - maybe due to his knock. Johnson - who had some good moments still doesn''t look convincing.    Howson I thought did quite well again.    The two wingers undoubtedly have the talent.      If the system is to work using the players we''ve got - it needs practice, experience at that system in a competetive match and the confidence to implement it properly.

 

But......................the players on the pitch have not played together in a formation like that.  Too many newish players - and a striker who may be short of confidence.   Against another potentially potent strike force.   Add that to Drury''s injury, then a mistake in defence.      The tactic/plan was scuppered.  No wonder PL was frustrated at the injury.   

 

We don''t know what the manager was thinking, but the only good point I can see is that the match was not crucial to the season - so in that sense it was worth trying that system with those players  with a view to giving experience for next season.

 

4-5-1, 4-4-2, 1-2-1-2-1-1-2, it shouldn''t make that much difference - if you get injuries, mistakes, bad luck etc etc - you are not going to do well regardless of which tactic you use.     The main difference between the teams was that when they had a chance they took it.  Then it was an uphill battle  - given the other things that happened in the match.

 

PL plainly is an interesting tactician.  Given our success over the last three years - he has no reason to change.  If he tries new systems I hope we will support him and try and understand what he is doing.   

 

(PS Would still have preferred Holt in from the start, whatever the system.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It probably is a case of using a system the players are comfortable with. Either that or give time for players to become comfortable with a new system. We tried three at the back and failed. Twice. But Wigan play it and have swept all before them. But Martinez was patient as was his chairman. For the last six games of this season we have been safe and it''s a window of opportunity to try out systems and blood young players (Bennett). I''d like to see us try three at the back again when Bennett is a bit more experienced and settled. Maybe it will suit Bennett and Ayala. I think Elliott Bennett would make a great right wing back. If Tierney''s fit and still here he would be suited to that role on the left. With maybe Bennett, Ward and Ayala the three defenders.

[/quote]

 

Exactly my thinking about Elliott Bennett - and I have got some support when promoting it previously.

 

Frankly I prefer 4 at the back with a top-class holding/enforcing midfielder in front screening them. In fact I reckon that the latter is the top-priority acquisition in the summer.

 

Personnel? I think that Russell Martin would be first on my teamsheet at CH partnered by Ayala or young Bennett (although yet to be convinced about him). And no doubt a controversial view I think that Leon Barnett is better at this level than either Ward or Whitbread. Tierney I think we have missed greatly for his pressure relieving work going forward on the left flank.

 

OTBC

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="lake district canary"]

 

(PS Would still have preferred Holt in from the start, whatever the system.)

 

[/quote]

 

Name me one person who wouldn''t have!

 

OTBC

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Norwich are best either 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. Three at back is unwise with the players that are currently available.

One of the downsides of Lambert''s excessive rotation and systems is that Hoolahan hasn''t been utilised as much has he should of. What a waste!

I don''t like 4-5-1 with Morison upfront on his own, despite the odd success with this formation. I''d much prefer Wes playing just off Holt and changing things later in the game if necessary.

5-4-1/4-5-1 is sometimes an admission that your midfield isn''t strong enough, and that is the area where games are won and lost. If Morison is sold, maybe the 4-5-1 won''t happen as often next season. Perhaps.

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I was a little surprised at the 4-5-1 formation for a home game. It has usually been a rather defensive shape for away games.

 

I suspect it comes from three factors:

 

PL wanted to play two wingers,as providing most threat

 

Our midfield in a 4-4-2 is not strong enough to contain attacking sides if two of them are wingers

 

We have tried 3-5-2, and our defenders are not strong enough for the extra pressure on them.

 

(It may also be due to the fact that PL wanted to rest some players on the bench - Holty, Surs, Hooly. Certainly in the case of Surs, he must be feeling very jaded, as week by week he covers as much ground as anyone in the Premiership.)

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I wonder whether setting up a team negatively at this stage of the season sends out the wrong message to the team in that they are not good enough to win and so they underperform. I would much rather they try to go all out for a win in a positive way and fail than be negative and fail. Winning breeds a winning mentality and we have lost it due to experimentation with negative tactics and not picking our best players. Football is about scoring goals and we have not been setting ourselves up the best way to do that.  

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[quote user="paul moy"]I wonder whether setting up a team negatively at this stage of the season sends out the wrong message to the team in that they are not good enough to win and so they underperform. I would much rather they try to go all out for a win in a positive way and fail than be negative and fail. Winning breeds a winning mentality and we have lost it due to experimentation with negative tactics and not picking our best players. Football is about scoring goals and we have not been setting ourselves up the best way to do that.  [/quote]

 

I couldn''t agree more[Y]

 

With our defense, when the goals dry up we are in the 5h1t, because our chances of a 0-0 are virtually non-existant, Chelsea aside, and should the opposition score just 1 goal even we''ll struggle to get a draw.  Furthermore, if we set up defensively and the opposition score 1 or 2 goals fairly early, then that strategy goes immediately out of the window and we are left chasing the game and against most opposition this season and with the quality of players they have, that will leave us as wide open as a prossy''s beaver.

 

Is Blackburn at home the only game this season where we have got anything from a 2 goal or greater defecit?[:^)]

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]

[quote user="paul moy"]I wonder whether setting up a team negatively at this stage of the season sends out the wrong message to the team in that they are not good enough to win and so they underperform. I would much rather they try to go all out for a win in a positive way and fail than be negative and fail. Winning breeds a winning mentality and we have lost it due to experimentation with negative tactics and not picking our best players. Football is about scoring goals and we have not been setting ourselves up the best way to do that.  [/quote]

 

I couldn''t agree more[Y]

 

With our defense, when the goals dry up we are in the 5h1t, because our chances of a 0-0 are virtually non-existant, Chelsea aside, and should the opposition score just 1 goal even we''ll struggle to get a draw.  Furthermore, if we set up defensively and the opposition score 1 or 2 goals fairly early, then that strategy goes immediately out of the window and we are left chasing the game and against most opposition this season and with the quality of players they have, that will leave us as wide open as a prossy''s beaver.

 

Is Blackburn at home the only game this season where we have got anything from a 2 goal or greater defecit?[:^)]

[/quote]

 

Just to add, now that our safety has been rubber stamped, if we are set up defensively in either of the final 2 games this season, 1, I will be very disappointed and 2, I will struggle to see the reasons why, there''s just no point?[:^)]  If we wdo set up defensively then I suppose it will just be Lambo tinkering, won''t it!?[:|]

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Lambert''s tactis did not cause us to lose on Saturday, idividual errors did. It wouldn''t have mattered what the starting 11 and formation was, if you make mistakes like we did and give chances to players of Suarez'' class you''ll get punished. I would imagine that those errors are a result of physical and mental fatigue after a huge effort all round this season in comfortably securing Premier League football for another season.

 

It shouldn''t be forgotten how quickly this team has been put together with our rise up the leagues, Swansea for example had a solid Championship squad left by Martinez that was regularly in the playoff picture that Rodgers then added some extra Premier League quality to, Lambert had to start from scratch yet has matched Swansea''s achievement. The players will come back recharged and refreshed after the summer break with no doubt some added reinforcements and we''ll have an even better season next year.

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"][quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]

[quote user="paul moy"]I wonder whether setting up a team negatively at this stage of the season sends out the wrong message to the team in that they are not good enough to win and so they underperform. I would much rather they try to go all out for a win in a positive way and fail than be negative and fail. Winning breeds a winning mentality and we have lost it due to experimentation with negative tactics and not picking our best players. Football is about scoring goals and we have not been setting ourselves up the best way to do that.  [/quote]

 

I couldn''t agree more[Y]

 

With our defense, when the goals dry up we are in the 5h1t, because our chances of a 0-0 are virtually non-existant, Chelsea aside, and should the opposition score just 1 goal even we''ll struggle to get a draw.  Furthermore, if we set up defensively and the opposition score 1 or 2 goals fairly early, then that strategy goes immediately out of the window and we are left chasing the game and against most opposition this season and with the quality of players they have, that will leave us as wide open as a prossy''s beaver.

 

Is Blackburn at home the only game this season where we have got anything from a 2 goal or greater defecit?[:^)]

[/quote]

 

Just to add, now that our safety has been rubber stamped, if we are set up defensively in either of the final 2 games this season, 1, I will be very disappointed and 2, I will struggle to see the reasons why, there''s just no point?[:^)]  If we wdo set up defensively then I suppose it will just be Lambo tinkering, won''t it!?[:|]

[/quote]

.. and I agree with you there. Just playing 4-4-2 for all home games would IMO have gleaned more points than setting up negative formations to stifle the opposition which clearly hasn''t worked, and is also frustrating for home fans who then go on to admire the opposition.  Our strengths are in attack, not in defence and we have not been utilising our strengths since we were ''safe''.

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I still tend to believe that nobody, not even Lambert, is entirely sure what our best central midfield combination is and that this has led to the constant chopping and changing of the system.

If you asked people on here to name their preferred starting midfield quartet, I''d bet you''d get a wide variety of differing combinations.  To my mind nobody has a guaranteed place or has been able to really stamp their authority on a position.  The likes of Fox, Surman, Johnson, Hoolahan and Howson have all had their moments but I would be surprised if any of them were genuine contenders for player of the season. I''m not for a second saying they are bad players but each of them has his own limitations that prevent them from being nailed on starters regardless of the opposition.

 

You can get away with changes out wide, plus I think Pilks and Bennett are an excellent pair of wide men, but in the centre you really need a consistent partnership.  You look at how well Newcastle have done this year - much of that success is down to having Cabaye and Tiote regularly pulling strings in midfield.  Perhaps Howson is half the answer, but I''m yet to be convinced that any of the others are much more than useful squad members.  If I were Lambert, I would be looking to spend a fair amount of the transfer budget on trying to solve this.

 

I also think that a lack of consistency with our centre backs has been one of the main contributing reasons to our poor defensive record this season.  Individually all of our defenders are decent at this level but injuries have denied Lambert the chance to form a first choice partnership.  If we can get the spine of our team sorted for next year - 2 regular centre backs, 2 regular centre midfielders and a regular partnership up front - then i think we will become a far harder team to beat regardless of how well we play on the day

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