How far can NCFC go as a club?

[Shack Attack 0]

A lot of talk about the relative financial muscle of the top six here but not a lot of talk about what needs to happen on the pitch to establish yourselves in that bracket. Admittedly it is connected and the players you may need to change style will cost money but the example Swansea have set this season gives hope to us all. As far as I can see you need a certain style to progress much further in the Premier League and Swansea are probably a little closer to this than we are.

 

The way we have played for the majority of the season is quite similar to a lot of smaller teams, and I use the word smaller relatively and purely related to finance rather than in a perjorative way, who gain immediate success in a top league. We''re energetic, proactive, fairly direct, there are no obvious stars and we attack. It''s a template that has worked for promoted clubs in the past in the Premier League going back to our friends south of the border and encompassing the likes of Reading and Hull. It''s worked, and continues to work, on the continent for smaller clubs.

 

But the real test is when you try and take things to the next level and what that encompasses. Look back over our games this season and you''ll see a team who rarely control a game. Our aggression and directness leads to us taking more risks which had allowed us to become one of the top scoring teams in the league but it is at the expense of control. Lambert clearly recognises this as his experiments between two up front and one up front show. Think back to Newcastle away where we controlled large parts of the game and whilst we may have not created huge amounts of chances we looked very comfortable through much of the match. But this control often comes at the expense of the goalscoring threat we carry when playing two up front. I suspect that Lambert''s occasional attempts to play three at the back are an attempt to resolve this by having greater numbers in midfield whist retaining two strikers but results have been mixed.

 

Going back to Swansea they have shown that you can control games against the best teams at this level with largely inexpensive British players. But you have to have a very definite gameplan and enough players who have played long enough in that style to make it work. Lambert is less of an idealist than Brendan Rodgers and I very much doubt we will ever see him try and copy his style. Also it is unlikely that Swansea (despite their greater levels of possession and more ''attractive'' style) will ever be able to attract the sort of attacking players who can break down the most resolute defences on a regular enough basis to get into the top six. If we do not go down this route then you would expect that we will need to revert to one up front to provide more stability but will need to add players to both in midfield and attack to stop us losing our cutting edge.

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

Great to see that the debate has carried on and evolved somewhat from the merely fanciful postings of myself and LDC.Money isnt the only factor that a club needs to utilise on. It''s WHAT you do with it.Liverpool spent £100m last summer where as we spent about £10 million or so.Maybe when the bubble bursts we will be in a great position to take advantage.Fascinating [Y]

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]

A lot of talk about the relative financial muscle of the top six here but not a lot of talk about what needs to happen on the pitch to establish yourselves in that bracket. Admittedly it is connected and the players you may need to change style will cost money but the example Swansea have set this season gives hope to us all. As far as I can see you need a certain style to progress much further in the Premier League and Swansea are probably a little closer to this than we are.

 

The way we have played for the majority of the season is quite similar to a lot of smaller teams, and I use the word smaller relatively and purely related to finance rather than in a perjorative way, who gain immediate success in a top league. We''re energetic, proactive, fairly direct, there are no obvious stars and we attack. It''s a template that has worked for promoted clubs in the past in the Premier League going back to our friends south of the border and encompassing the likes of Reading and Hull. It''s worked, and continues to work, on the continent for smaller clubs.

 

But the real test is when you try and take things to the next level and what that encompasses. Look back over our games this season and you''ll see a team who rarely control a game. Our aggression and directness leads to us taking more risks which had allowed us to become one of the top scoring teams in the league but it is at the expense of control. Lambert clearly recognises this as his experiments between two up front and one up front show. Think back to Newcastle away where we controlled large parts of the game and whilst we may have not created huge amounts of chances we looked very comfortable through much of the match. But this control often comes at the expense of the goalscoring threat we carry when playing two up front. I suspect that Lambert''s occasional attempts to play three at the back are an attempt to resolve this by having greater numbers in midfield whist retaining two strikers but results have been mixed.

 

Going back to Swansea they have shown that you can control games against the best teams at this level with largely inexpensive British players. But you have to have a very definite gameplan and enough players who have played long enough in that style to make it work. Lambert is less of an idealist than Brendan Rodgers and I very much doubt we will ever see him try and copy his style. Also it is unlikely that Swansea (despite their greater levels of possession and more ''attractive'' style) will ever be able to attract the sort of attacking players who can break down the most resolute defences on a regular enough basis to get into the top six. If we do not go down this route then you would expect that we will need to revert to one up front to provide more stability but will need to add players to both in midfield and attack to stop us losing our cutting edge.

[/quote]

 

I think, from the games I have seen, that is spot on as an analysis. This season has been a question of deciding which circle to square, because we don''t have a perfect team/formation. I think it will be fascinating in the summer to see what kind of player comes in. A skilful powerhouse of a midfelder would give us more tactical flexibility, as would a really skilful striker.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

Like I said in a early post on this thread, I think NCFC are capable of becoming a regular Premiership team playing in front of 32,000+ average home crowds and seriously challenging for European places and cups!

 

I don''t believe all this " if we had a bigger ground loads of ST holders would not renew and just pick and choose games" palava!!

 

I''m sure a small % would do exactly that but while the main reason for a ST nowadays is to guarantee your seat at the games, another big reason is that casual ticket prices have gone through the roof and are unaffordable for many. I come from the era of walk up to the turnstile and pay your money to get into the game in question and many others are too but I couldn''t afford to pay regular OAP casual prices (let alone adult prices) and the £15 to watch us not bother against Leicester was more than enough. Many ST holders couldn''t afford to be casual fans at current prices.

 

Our ATT''s over the last 10 seasons prove we need a bigger ground despite all the "little ole Norwich" blinkered fans saying otherwise. I''ve been going since the 1950''s and I believe we''re better supported than we ever have been and would have no problem in selling out a 35,000 for many games at this level. I think its obvious that if our ground was big enough we''d comfortably beat our highest ever average ATT record which I believe was set in 1972/73 with 27/28,000. Indeed if you talk to those in the know at the club and they''ll tell you we could have beat our record ATT THIS season. We''ve always had a large floating support that in recent years have had to become keener to come to games cause of the high demand. But in the days when we''d get 30,000+ crowds for big games, for other games we''d sometimes struggle to get over 10,000. But Norwichs support from the Worthy era is uncompareable to what we had before that. If you asked myself or most other fans in the 1990''s that we''d get regular 24,000+ crowds ten years down the line and you''d of been laughed at. How many so called bigger would be able to average 24,700 in the 3rd Division, not many is the answer and these would be clubs with bigger grounds than us.

 

For an example, the recent Wigan home game saw a crowd of about 26,600 with under 300 Wigan fans. If we increased out capacity to 30,000+ we''d have to accomodate 3000 fans for away games which is the figure many big clubs in this League would bring. Now 26,600+2700= 29300 and thats before we think about accomodating more home supporters.

 

The Burnley and Leicester games were noticeable for number of fresh faces in home areas which means that more than likely many non regular fans took in the games. This indicates that our potential fanbase goes far beyond the 25,000 max we can accomodate at the moment!

 

Other factors to consider are -

 

While in the Premiership many people come out of the woodwork that suddenly become intersted in attending games. The lure of the Premiership shouldn''t be underestimated!

 

The population is increasing.

 

Going to football is more fashionable and acceptable than what it was in the dark old days of the 70''s and most of the 80''s.

 

I think in a ground holding 32-33,000 we''d be in a similar situation to now in most of the ground being ST holders and only a few casual tickets being available!

 

For the club to realise its potential, increasing the ground capacity is essential and the crowd figures and demand of the last 10 years suggests that it is definately needed!!

[lake district canary 0]

Fanciful or not folks, you can''t deny that the club has been on an upward surge since Paul Lambert became our manager.   Now I may be accused of being over optimistic, but that isn''t really my point.

 

If you agree that we are on an upward surge - why does it have to stop or slow down?  Because you say so?  Because money says so?  Because size of our club says so?     Because it''s not been done before?   In all honesty - you simply don''t know.   Neither do I.    You all think that we are going to level off and settle at some mythical place that is hovering around mid table.  

 

Football isn''t like that.   we may carry on going up a bit, then things might get more difficult and we have a downward spell.  Or we could carry on going on up for longer - who knows?  Or we could just start going down next season.

 

What you can''t do is try and ''fix'' the club at a certain point in the league.    If you want a system that more or less guarentees mid table status you need some kind of Stoke like approach.  Do you want to be Stoke?   Everton are stuck in a rut too.   Villa - a busted flush.  

 

The truth is that there will be ups and downs - a club like ours is bound to be like that.  We probably couldn''t sustain a top 6 side year after  year. But thats not to say we couldn''t have a good two or three years trying - as in the early 90''s.   I do think that some of you are limiting your views as to what we could do.  The momentum is still with us - if we can improve the squad this year we should do better next year - surely?  Then the year after that - the same.   Why can''t we see beyond the end of our noses?  

 

We''re all brainwashed by the media bandwagon that is the premier league.     The top six are just football clubs - they are clubs with too much money, lack of ethos, overpaid mercenary type foreign players who can''t assimilate into decent teams, for all their skill.   I''m convinced that a club is going to break into this cynical world of money and hype.  It might as well be us. 

 

Exciting times ahead - up or down it''s always going to be exciting in the premier league of football.   But please let us not limit the club to ''mid table stagnation''.    I for one would rather go down trying to go up than trying to get to some point where things are''stable'' in mid table. It can''t be done without  losing something important -  just look at Stoke.  Always touted at achieving the "mid table established side"  syndrome.   You have to be progressive and entertaining - thats been the Norwich way since John Bond came to the club. 

 

Fanciful or over optimistic? Its neither of these things - its recognising that at it''s heart football is a game, and no amount of money or systems can change that.   Up or down - you can''t tell how far you can go in either direction.  You can easily think you''re going down - perhaps its harder to think you can go up, but my view is that you don''t limit the aspirations of your club, especially with the momentum we''ve got at the moment. You just never know...................

 

 

[ricardo 7,385]

[quote user="lake district canary"]

 

Fanciful or over optimistic? Its neither of these things - its recognising that at it''s heart football is a game, and no amount of money or systems can change that.   Up or down - you can''t tell how far you can go in either direction.  You can easily think you''re going down - perhaps its harder to think you can go up, but my view is that you don''t limit the aspirations of your club, especially with the momentum we''ve got at the moment. You just never know...................

 

 

[/quote]I applaud your optimism LDC lets push it as far as it will go while the good times last.If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;

If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

And treat those two impostors just the same;But I have to agree with Morty LDC, more than a half century of going to CR has taught me that a certain amount of pragmatism is required to be a Canaries supporter long term.Triumph and Disaster LDC.  They even out over time[;)]

[star_manic 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Shaker Maker"]


What is the population of East Anglia would you say?

I include the whole of East Anglia because if things pan out like I hope they will do, the Blue filth (2nd biggest club in East Anglia) will not stand a chance in the level of supporter stakes. They can have their 16/17 thousand hardcore supporters where as Carrow Road could benefit from Lambert''s Legacy.

We are a massive club and the levels of support are sometimes under-estimated (I could be wrong).

If we maintain these levels of success and have a few years of 6th/7th placings our support could grow and grow.

 Of course saying all this, we could go down next season encouraging PL to leave and we could be up *creek...

Speculate to accumulate as someone once said [Y]
[/quote]

 

Shaker Maker, you and lDC are vying for the title of Optimist of the Year! A rough Wiki estimate is that the population of East Anglia (ie, Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambs) is around 2.1m. But the scenario you paint, of being THE team in a region, strikes me as highly unlikely. We are not Barcelona, and East Anglia is not Catalonia.

 

A cold dose of statistics. Even when we had a 40,000-plus stadium our highest ever average attendance was 27,000. Of course I would expect that to rise by several thousand if we got a 35,000-seat stadium and continued, generally, to be successful. But the comparison I was making was with the income generated for the big clubs by crowds of 60,000 and more. I cannot, cannot, cannot ever see that happening for us.

[/quote]........but in those days transportation to the city was by bus or train, not a great % had motor transport, also football was not the religon that it now is and also people are relatively financially better off nowadays. all factors making attendances lower then than now.[ip][;)]

[lake district canary 0]

Dreams or pragmatism??   Thats the question.  Fanrtasy or fact?  

If we''re being realistic, since PL came to the club we''ve been in a dreamworld.  

The dream is reality. Reality is a dream.  

Welcome to the dream. Welcome to the real world.

Who can say now we can''t go higher?

 

 

 

[morty 0]

Temper all this with the fact that folks can barely afford to fill their cars with fuel at the moment.I think the club will be cautious regarding stadium expansion, and rightly so.When the rest of the country is tightening their belts I think it would be imprudent to take any financial risks.

[star_manic 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]

[quote user="morty"]

I would love the ambition desired by some in this thread to become a reality, I really would, but it takes more than an ambitious manager and some good old team spirit these days, it takes cold, hard cash, its as simple as that.

So we have a ceiling, mainly limited by our crowd size, which is limited by our local population and catchment area. Also by our "fashionability" which means that even if we did have the money, could we attract global superstars to our lovely county?


[/quote]

 

While I agree with a lot of what you say,  you are still limiting in your mind what is possible.     You are saying that you are limiting what you can achieve because of what you haven''t got!    We haven''t got as much cash, we haven''t got as big a crowd, we haven''t got this, we haven''t got that.

 

The truth is there are no limits in football.      How do cup upsets work?  Because the underdog club believes that on its day it can be a giant killer.     How does a team down and out at the bottom of League 1 become a top 10 premiership side in three years - because the manager and players believed it could.     

 

While finances are important - belief in what you are doing is just as important.   Believe that you can do better, believe that you can beat the ''big clubs'' and you never know - you might just do it.     Belief and spirit are the most important things in football - not finances and crowd size.  

 

The  title of this thread is ''how far can the club go?''  The truth is that it could go to the top.   There are no limits. There are no precursors ordaining this or ordaining that.  Money is an issue but it''s not the main issue.  Players wages are an issue but not the main issue.    We have something special at Norwich - lets go with that and see how far it takes us.   Sure we will inevitably have a downturn, but that doesn''t have to happen for a long time.  I still think the tide is turning.   The big clubs don''t look so big - their teams don''t look so ''awesome'' - their managers don''t look all that good - in short they can''t live up to the amount of money that is being churned into them.     The smaller, well run clubs are showing the way.  Other clubs will try and emulate us and Swansea.   The revolution is on.   And we are at the heart of it.    We have a head start - lets enjoy the ride and not limit our minds as to what we can achieve in the next few seasons.    

 

 

 

[/quote]...... totally agree with you ldc. the overall standard in this years pl cannot compare to some ten years ago, which is why the mancunians are out of two european competitions already. they may spend multi millions on socalled star players, but are these players living up to their hype? i don''t think they are which means the class difference ( actual rather than perceived ) between top and bottom clubs is much less than the media would have us believe. o.k. we havn''t beaten any of the "big" clubs this season, but with a little more composure and a decent ref we could have done the double over manure. has that ever been said by our supporters before?[:D][:D]

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

Would it really be a financial risk to expand the ground?The board have already said that after 2 years of premiership football we will begin the expansion of Carrow Road in the post season of the 2nd successive year.Obviously it depends when expansion takes place but I think it''s only a matter of time.

[Bill 1,788]

"but in those days transportation to the city was by bus or train, not a

great % had motor transport, also football was not the religon that it

now is and also people are relatively financially better off nowadays.

all factors making attendances lower then than now"

Blimey you could not be more wrong, presuming it wasn''t tongue in cheekTransport was no problem in getting 44,000 into Carrow Road, as with the 37,000 for a night matchFootball has a far lower following now and relies considerably on huge non adult tickets for numbers - yet conversely it is way, way more expensive irrespective of people supposedly being "relatively financially better off". The days of admission being about the same price as a couple

However it matters far less what the attendances are, given how much a small amount of the overall income gate money they are. A new stand might generate less money than two places higher in the table.  This years prize money could well be more than season ticket sales. Sp I am not too sure what all the squeaking about attendances is when we are talking about how far the club can go.

[star_manic 0]

[quote user="City1st"]"but in those days transportation to the city was by bus or train, not a great % had motor transport, also football was not the religon that it now is and also people are relatively financially better off nowadays. all factors making attendances lower then than now"




Blimey you could not be more wrong, presuming it wasn''t tongue in cheek

Transport was no problem in getting 44,000 into Carrow Road, as with the 37,000 for a night match

Football has a far lower following now and relies considerably on huge non adult tickets for numbers - yet conversely it is way, way more expensive irrespective of people supposedly being "relatively financially better off". The days of admission being about the same price as a couple


However it matters far less what the attendances are, given how much a small amount of the overall income gate money they are. A new stand might generate less money than two places higher in the table.  This years prize money could well be more than season ticket sales. Sp I am not too sure what all the squeaking about attendances is when we are talking about how far the club can go.

[/quote]...i don''t know why you would think this. i was brought up in a small village a few miles outside swaffham and a lot of us kids and many adults were very keen city fans, but at that time there were only a half dozen cars and my dads work van in the village. i cannot remember anyone from the village ever attending a match unlike today when several make the journey with relative ease on a saturday. then it was easy for people from or near the city to attend, but not for the rest of the canary supporting county. this is the 1950''s i am referring to.

[ricardo 7,385]

[quote user="star_manic"][quote user="lake district canary"]

[quote user="morty"]

I would love the ambition desired by some in this thread to become a reality, I really would, but it takes more than an ambitious manager and some good old team spirit these days, it takes cold, hard cash, its as simple as that.So we have a ceiling, mainly limited by our crowd size, which is limited by our local population and catchment area. Also by our "fashionability" which means that even if we did have the money, could we attract global superstars to our lovely county?

[/quote]

 

While I agree with a lot of what you say,  you are still limiting in your mind what is possible.     You are saying that you are limiting what you can achieve because of what you haven''t got!    We haven''t got as much cash, we haven''t got as big a crowd, we haven''t got this, we haven''t got that.

 

The truth is there are no limits in football.      How do cup upsets work?  Because the underdog club believes that on its day it can be a giant killer.     How does a team down and out at the bottom of League 1 become a top 10 premiership side in three years - because the manager and players believed it could.     

 

While finances are important - belief in what you are doing is just as important.   Believe that you can do better, believe that you can beat the ''big clubs'' and you never know - you might just do it.     Belief and spirit are the most important things in football - not finances and crowd size.  

 

The  title of this thread is ''how far can the club go?''  The truth is that it could go to the top.   There are no limits. There are no precursors ordaining this or ordaining that.  Money is an issue but it''s not the main issue.  Players wages are an issue but not the main issue.    We have something special at Norwich - lets go with that and see how far it takes us.   Sure we will inevitably have a downturn, but that doesn''t have to happen for a long time.  I still think the tide is turning.   The big clubs don''t look so big - their teams don''t look so ''awesome'' - their managers don''t look all that good - in short they can''t live up to the amount of money that is being churned into them.     The smaller, well run clubs are showing the way.  Other clubs will try and emulate us and Swansea.   The revolution is on.   And we are at the heart of it.    We have a head start - lets enjoy the ride and not limit our minds as to what we can achieve in the next few seasons.    

 

 

 

[/quote]...... totally agree with you ldc. the overall standard in this years pl cannot compare to some ten years ago, which is why the mancunians are out of two european competitions already. they may spend multi millions on socalled star players, but are these players living up to their hype? i don''t think they are which means the class difference ( actual rather than perceived ) between top and bottom clubs is much less than the media would have us believe. o.k. we havn''t beaten any of the "big" clubs this season, but with a little more composure and a decent ref we could have done the double over manure. has that ever been said by our supporters before?[:D][:D][/quote]Yes mate, we doubled them twice 1988/89 and 1989/90

[Yellowfuture 71]

Well done LDC for removing  the shackals and just letting your mind explore the possibilities. It makes for exciting reading and I think you make many  good points. The key to our future success for me is Lambert, most of the teams that have risen to have great periods in their history have either done so with massive injections of cash OR by having  a top quality  management team that could buy well, motivate players and tactically  be ahead of the opposition. Lambert has shown so far that he has these qualities and so long as the Board of NCFC recognise what a gem they  have have and back him as well as they can, which I am sure they will, then I think we could become a club consistently in the top six. We dont need to compare ourselves with other club models eg we could be  a Stoke, or an Everton, or a Newcastle, why not develop a new model for success, the Norwich model that other top sides could aspire to follow!

[morty 0]

[quote user="Shaker Maker"]Would it really be a financial risk to expand the ground?The board have already said that after 2 years of premiership football we will begin the expansion of Carrow Road in the post season of the 2nd successive year.Obviously it depends when expansion takes place but I think it''s only a matter of time.[/quote]Its a massive risk, and a logistical nightmare.I can''t remember the figures, but am sure it goes something along the lines of having to put a bum on every extra seat you install for something ridiculous like 4 seasons, to pay for it. Taking into account lost revenue while the stand is being redeveloped (And having to somehow reseat everyone while you''re doing so) it wouldn''t surprise me if the whole thing amounted to 20 or 30 million.So you don''t want to overextend yourself, because what you''re essentially doing is gambling on future crowd figures. Yes, it looks good(ish) on paper, but we have seen so many similar situations where teams either build new grounds or stands, then can''t fill them.I fully trust McNally to do the right thing, but like I said before, its not the no brainer a lot of folks think it is.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Shaker Maker"]Would it really be a financial risk to expand the ground?

The board have already said that after 2 years of premiership football we will begin the expansion of Carrow Road in the post season of the 2nd successive year.

Obviously it depends when expansion takes place but I think it''s only a matter of time.
[/quote]

Its a massive risk, and a logistical nightmare.

I can''t remember the figures, but am sure it goes something along the lines of having to put a bum on every extra seat you install for something ridiculous like 4 seasons, to pay for it. Taking into account lost revenue while the stand is being redeveloped (And having to somehow reseat everyone while you''re doing so) it wouldn''t surprise me if the whole thing amounted to 20 or 30 million.

So you don''t want to overextend yourself, because what you''re essentially doing is gambling on future crowd figures. Yes, it looks good(ish) on paper, but we have seen so many similar situations where teams either build new grounds or stands, then can''t fill them.

I fully trust McNally to do the right thing, but like I said before, its not the no brainer a lot of folks think it is.
[/quote]

 

I have posted the details of the massive costs and the logistical nightmare on the Stadium expansion thread. I also am dubious - though willing to be convinced - about the Bowkett and McNally business plan based on filling a 35,000-seat stadium.

[lake district canary 0]

[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]Well done LDC for removing  the shackals and just letting your mind explore the possibilities. It makes for exciting reading and I think you make many  good points. The key to our future success for me is Lambert, most of the teams that have risen to have great periods in their history have either done so with massive injections of cash OR by having  a top quality  management team that could buy well, motivate players and tactically  be ahead of the opposition. Lambert has shown so far that he has these qualities and so long as the Board of NCFC recognise what a gem they  have have and back him as well as they can, which I am sure they will, then I think we could become a club consistently in the top six. We dont need to compare ourselves with other club models eg we could be  a Stoke, or an Everton, or a Newcastle, why not develop a new model for success, the Norwich model that other top sides could aspire to follow!
[/quote]

 

 

 

I agree totally that Lambert is the key.   We should really do our utmost to look after our greatest asset and make him feel welcome.   Fans are fickle and if he was to feel unappreciated  - he would be off.    He is quite simply the best manager we have had - akin to Brian Clough and Martin O''Neill in method and ideology.    Things would change if he were to leave at any stage.  But while he is here, hopefully for a long time, we need to enjoy the ride and see where it takes us.

 

 

 

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

I just cannot see why Lambert would want to leave- at least for the next 4/5 years.Maybe I''m deluded, but this thread has got me excited about the possibilities.There is NOTHING to suggest that we cant get Champions League football in 4/5 years.I bet Lambert has long term plans of managing at that level, why not with us?

[grantroederdisaster 0]

Making the ground bigger is a no brainer when the times right which would be when we are debt free and still in the Premiership!

 

Get ya "little ole Norwich" specs of Morty!

[morty 0]

[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

Making the ground bigger is a no brainer when the times right which would be when we are debt free and still in the Premiership!

 

Get ya "little ole Norwich" specs of Morty!

[/quote]I totally agree with the points I have bolded, which is exactly what I have said in my posts.[:)]

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

Did I really just post that we could get ''Champions League football in 4/5 years'' ?!Lambert (and Culverhouse we shouldnt forget) has given us the go-ahead to dream the unthinkable.What a manager he is.

[priceyrice 123]

[quote user="ricardo"]In our entire history there have only ever been 9 league games with a gate over 35k . 4 of them were in the early 1970''s and the other 5 were in Division 3 South between 1948 and 1951.Plus   11 - FA Cup, 1- League Cup  1- Texaco CupHistory says we will never fill a 35k Stadium on a regular basis[/quote]Sorry this thread is too long for me to read everything, but i jsut want to pick up on those saying we cannot fill 35,000.Ricardo, i understand why you are looking at previous season to see when we have done it, but you also have to remember the population of Norwich has increased dramatically in the last 10 years and it will continue to do so for a while yet.There have also been several games this season where the demand for tickets has been around 35,000- can''t remmeber where i saw this fact, but i am sure i have seen it somewhere.Both this facts, coupled with continued prem football make it pretty obvious to me that a 35,000 seater will be filled easily enough most weeks.However, i do not see us going too much beyond that, mainly due to the fact we don''t have a big enough catchment area. If Peterborough or Ipswich went into admin then perhaps that would send another 10,000 or so fans our way, but i don''t really see that happening. With 35,000-40,000 being out limit, it''s hard to see how a club of our stature could ever compete on the European front consistently, we jsut won''t generate the revenue.I do believe we can aim for Euro football through the cups and perhaps one season we will finish 6th, but it will never happen on a consistent basis.I just hope city fans keep their feet on the ground after this season. I can imagine a difficult season next year in the prem and i think there is every chance we could be fighting to avoid relegation. I just hope we don''t turn into Blackburn fans and we remember all Lambert has done for us if that was to happen

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

[quote user="priceyrice"][quote user="ricardo"]In our entire history there have only ever been 9 league games with a gate over 35k . 4 of them were in the early 1970''s and the other 5 were in Division 3 South between 1948 and 1951.Plus   11 - FA Cup, 1- League Cup  1- Texaco CupHistory says we will never fill a 35k Stadium on a regular basis[/quote]Sorry this thread is too long for me to read everything, but i jsut want to pick up on those saying we cannot fill 35,000.Ricardo, i understand why you are looking at previous season to see when we have done it, but you also have to remember the population of Norwich has increased dramatically in the last 10 years and it will continue to do so for a while yet.There have also been several games this season where the demand for tickets has been around 35,000- can''t remmeber where i saw this fact, but i am sure i have seen it somewhere.Both this facts, coupled with continued prem football make it pretty obvious to me that a 35,000 seater will be filled easily enough most weeks.However, i do not see us going too much beyond that, mainly due to the fact we don''t have a big enough catchment area. If Peterborough or Ipswich went into admin then perhaps that would send another 10,000 or so fans our way, but i don''t really see that happening. With 35,000-40,000 being out limit, it''s hard to see how a club of our stature could ever compete on the European front consistently, we jsut won''t generate the revenue.I do believe we can aim for Euro football through the cups and perhaps one season we will finish 6th, but it will never happen on a consistent basis.I just hope city fans keep their feet on the ground after this season. I can imagine a difficult season next year in the prem and i think there is every chance we could be fighting to avoid relegation. I just hope we don''t turn into Blackburn fans and we remember all Lambert has done for us if that was to happen[/quote]Why do you think this can I ask?Football clubs grow, we know this. Look at the likes of Newcastle.There is absolutely nothing to suggest that we cant become a permanent fixture in this league and continue to build and grow.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

I''ve heard that we could have broke our ATT record of 43,900 odd this season!

 

Yes next season will be tough because we will no longer be an unknown quantity and the winning momentum of the League 1 and Championship promotion seasons has been eroded this season by losing more often.

 

The squad will need strengthening and some of the lesser lights moved on, we can''t afford to sit still although this process will be a delicate juggling act that Lambert will need to get right. This is the reason combined with our debt, why blowing a lot of money at this stage would likely prove detrimental to Premiership survival!

[Monty13 2,231]

Having read all this thread I have felt compelled to post as its a really good debate and very emotive subject.

Something that strikes me with the stadium increase is people seem to be debating at whether we could fill a 35k stadium. Surely part of the club having ambition is the desire not only improve our league position but to fill that (not massively unrealistic) capacity. Norwich support has not massively waned over the last few years even in the bad times, although no one seems to definitively no why, while other clubs that have been in similar situations have seen their support wax and wane with their varying success. With that support so strong why should there not be a desire to build upon it? I have to echo a couple of the previous posts and point out to really secure its future the club cannot rely on just investing in its youth players it must look to build on its success and pull in the kids as supporters at this popular time. An increase in stadium capacity would allow discounts on tickets to do this.

I also wonder if there is some debate whether we need supporters as ticket sales make up such a small amount of our income??? I know the club is effectively a business but we still like to think of it as a football club, surely whether more seats would pay for themselves or not isn''t really the issue, the club has and hopefully always will be there for us the supporters. So granting access to as many as possible and trying to encourage more should be one of its main goals. Otherwise all the club really needs is one really rich supporter his cheque book and some sky money to top it up. Maybe I''m being too flippant for my first post! But what I''m trying to say is ultimately why isn''t how many supporters we can encourage to view us on a week by week basis as much of a measure of where we can go as the league table. If we had gates of 35k in the 70''s then how can that not be a realistic ambition today?

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="Shaker Maker"]The board have already said that after 2 years of premiership football we will begin the expansion of Carrow Road in the post season of the 2nd successive year.[/quote]err, not true I''m afraidas to the very valid point made by Morty........ where are the club going to put the 4000 or so from the Main Stand - many being the most influential in the club ?A suggestion might be on the lines of getting the ''over excited'' to volunteer their seats - which I am sure that other more reasoned folk will applaud as a well principled sign of their total commitment to their beliefs.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Shack Attack"]

A lot of talk about the relative financial muscle of the top six here but not a lot of talk about what needs to happen on the pitch to establish yourselves in that bracket. Admittedly it is connected and the players you may need to change style will cost money but the example Swansea have set this season gives hope to us all. As far as I can see you need a certain style to progress much further in the Premier League and Swansea are probably a little closer to this than we are.

 

The way we have played for the majority of the season is quite similar to a lot of smaller teams, and I use the word smaller relatively and purely related to finance rather than in a perjorative way, who gain immediate success in a top league. We''re energetic, proactive, fairly direct, there are no obvious stars and we attack. It''s a template that has worked for promoted clubs in the past in the Premier League going back to our friends south of the border and encompassing the likes of Reading and Hull. It''s worked, and continues to work, on the continent for smaller clubs.

 

But the real test is when you try and take things to the next level and what that encompasses. Look back over our games this season and you''ll see a team who rarely control a game. Our aggression and directness leads to us taking more risks which had allowed us to become one of the top scoring teams in the league but it is at the expense of control. Lambert clearly recognises this as his experiments between two up front and one up front show. Think back to Newcastle away where we controlled large parts of the game and whilst we may have not created huge amounts of chances we looked very comfortable through much of the match. But this control often comes at the expense of the goalscoring threat we carry when playing two up front. I suspect that Lambert''s occasional attempts to play three at the back are an attempt to resolve this by having greater numbers in midfield whist retaining two strikers but results have been mixed.

 

Going back to Swansea they have shown that you can control games against the best teams at this level with largely inexpensive British players. But you have to have a very definite gameplan and enough players who have played long enough in that style to make it work. Lambert is less of an idealist than Brendan Rodgers and I very much doubt we will ever see him try and copy his style. Also it is unlikely that Swansea (despite their greater levels of possession and more ''attractive'' style) will ever be able to attract the sort of attacking players who can break down the most resolute defences on a regular enough basis to get into the top six. If we do not go down this route then you would expect that we will need to revert to one up front to provide more stability but will need to add players to both in midfield and attack to stop us losing our cutting edge.

[/quote]

 

I think, from the games I have seen, that is spot on as an analysis. This season has been a question of deciding which circle to square, because we don''t have a perfect team/formation. I think it will be fascinating in the summer to see what kind of player comes in. A skilful powerhouse of a midfelder would give us more tactical flexibility, as would a really skilful striker.

[/quote]You''re dead right there Purple and it''s not really a surprise. We are after all a long way ahead of plan so it should be no real surprise that we have not yet got the complete squad that PL probably desires. However it is testement to his man management and the attitude of the players that none of those that we would maybe not have expected to feature much at this level have let us down.Whilst I think you''re probably right about ''squaring circles'' it is also true that every team faces a similar dilema about that balance between conrol/defensive stability and attacking intent. Every action on the pitch has a reaction somewhere else. It makes me grimmace when I see people confidently predict that we would have beaten Newcastle away if we had played two up front. Do they really think that the extra attacking player would only create more goalscoring opportunities and have no impact on our defensive stability?It doesn''t matter what level you play at that balance between control of a game and risk taking in attack has to be made. Lambert is clearly an attack minded manager but he also recognises the need to control the game better if we are to continue to improve. The biggest issue he seems to face is that the formation that offers most contol in incompatible with our most dangerous striker and that when he plays we sometimes need to sacrifice some of the players who can help us control the game better. It has not really mattered this season but I suspect it will be something that will occupy the mind of Paul Lambert in the close season and lead, as you suggest, to a minor restructuring of the squad.

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

If you''ll look back through the thread Mr City 1st sir, you will find the link to the EDP article.http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/mcnally_norwich_city_are_staying_put_at_carrow_road_1_815559

I know it doesnt say it there and it says '' 35,000 eventually'' but I can honestly say that I heard Bowkett say that after 2 years we would expand to 35,000.I took the notes in shorthand and if I could be bothered (i cant) I could find you the piece of paper with it written on.

[Bill 1,788]

or you could go to the most recent comments on the matterstadium expansionwhere it says  -"The pair said the club hoped to begin work on turning Carrow Road into a 35,000-seat stadium  “if we stay in the Premier League for three years”".