stadium expansion

[Lord Horn 0]

[quote user="morty"]I think we would be daft moving from the prime piece of real estate we are currently on. 10 minutes from the train station, 20 minutes from the city centre, right next to Riverside. I think the casual business created for the shop and ticket office created by people being in and around the place as part of their daily business, would be missed.


[/quote]

Not forgetting all the drinking/eating establishments along Riverside and elsewhere in the City Centre.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

2 years to redevelop/build a new stand!!!!!????[:^)]

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]2 years to redevelop/build a new stand!!!!!????[:^)][/quote]

That does indeed seem strange. The Jarrold Stand was fully open before the end of February, 2004, having been knocked down in May 2003. Perhaps there are building difficulties with there being a road behind the City Stand. I remember a while ago Tangible passed on the information that Fulham are planning to leave the stand they are increasing in place, as a lower tier, and will build what will become the upper tier above and behind it. Thus avoiding having to find accommodation for - and losing the revenue from - thousands of fans.

[spencer 1970 207]

IF they do decide to knock down the City stand and rebuild it do you think they could leave some supporters in their seats when demolition starts?

[Brighton Yellow 0]

I have researched this quite a lot in recent years and have experience of working on a new stadium in Brighton.

 

I consider the best option to demolition the City Stand and corners altogether and build a new two tired stand over the top of Carrow Road in much the same fashion as the two stands at St James Park have.

 

This would increase capacity and amenity space greatly.

The building of a new stand simply isn’t feasible due to the time constraints and lack of availability. We are actually blessed to have one of the best situated grounds in the league.

The one issue is the loss of seating, however Wolves have shown how quickly temporary arrangements can be made.

 

[thenorthstand 0]

Think it just makes perfect sense to expand considering we pack it out every match.

[BW 0]

Club looking to knock down city stand and replace it with a two tier stand that can turn into a three tier stand in the future. Mark my words

[tom cavendish 0]

Here you go, a new stadium planned to be built on university land. The Uni bought the land and is allowing the stadium to be built there:http://info.uwe.ac.uk/news/uwenews/news.aspx?id=1983Part of the stadium will be a huge teaching area for the uni to use and the football club will make millions from it. The uni is also paying the club for use of the car park when a game isn''t being played.It seems a great idea of how to get a new stadium on the cheap and make far more non-matchday income from the stadium.

[tom cavendish 0]

Some more info...The new UWE stadium is to use 9.3 acres of land. The UEA has 362 acres of land.We would only need 3% of the UEA land for a new stadium.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]Some more info...

The new UWE stadium is to use 9.3 acres of land.

The UEA has 362 acres of land.

We would only need 3% of the UEA land for a new stadium.[/quote]

 

Tom there''s a problem with your idea and its called cost.  A new 40,000 stadium will probably cost £70m+ (given the estimated £20m to build a new 10,000 Geoffrey Watling Stand) and then there''s the cost of the land. I dont see the City Council or the UEA., if either had land to spare donating free land!  The value of the land where our pitch is and where the stands are located may be £8m - £10m (given that NCFC got £2.1m for the Orange car park) less the cost of demolition.

So we would probably need a loan of £70m. Do you think NCFC would be able to service a loan of that size (assuming we could raise it)?

Better to gradually redevelop our existing site.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

Three years to establish ourselves in The Premiership, clear off our external debts etc., then a decision will be made and there has to be  a good business case for a new stand (note its a new stand).

New stands take less time to build now due to pre cast concrete being lowered onto the girder work.  When they built the River End (N&P Stand) concrete was poured in situ.

 

[Old Shuck 183]

Why the calls to move away and have a new stadium built?

 

The costs would be astronomical. And whoever buys the current site would factor in the costs of redeveloping the site which would markedly reduce the price the club might hope to achieve-it isn''t "land" they''d be selling and it isn''t "land" that a would be developer would be seeing, but a very large football stadium (and hotel, am sure Holiday Inn will be delighted to have their modern hotel demolished) that would need to come down and have all of the physical infrastructure removed, at enormous cost. All of that would need to be done even before the developer had their blank canvas and the second round of costs, including planning, as to what was going to go there.

 

No-one is going to ''donate'' land-its all very well thinking someone like the UEA is going to give some land away to anyone, least of all a football club-after all, we wouldn''t be giving the Carrow Road site away-you can''t say "sell the ground and get ''x'' million and then get a few acres donated by the UEA"--they''re not a philanthropic institution, they need to survive, financially, in the current-and future-social and economic climate as much as we and anyone does. That land is as good as cash in the bank to them.

 

No-one would much support the club moving. It would essentially be seen as a vanity project-not neccessary when there is a perfectly good facility in-situ which has scope for some development which would entail the new build City stand. Ultimately, though a long way down the line, the River End could be rebuilt as well. And so on-its a cyclical site which can serve the club and City for another 100 years if need-be.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

I am not advocating the idea, but had always assumed if we did move to a greendfield site it would be our own training ground at Colney. Is that not big enough, or would transport links be too difficult?

[/quote]

 

Does anyone know the answer to this?

[. 0]

Stay put.... it''s fine where it is and as big as it needs to be looking forward.This ''soccer'' hype bubble will burst sooner or later in exactly the same way that all businesses who live beyond their means do. With so few eggs in their basket providing so much of the cash, it is totally unsustainable in the long term.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

I am not advocating the idea, but had always assumed if we did move to a greendfield site it would be our own training ground at Colney. Is that not big enough, or would transport links be too difficult?

[/quote]

 

Does anyone know the answer to this?

[/quote]I''ll pop over to Chase''s house for his opinion [:)]

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="The Pink un Role Model"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

I am not advocating the idea, but had always assumed if we did move to a greendfield site it would be our own training ground at Colney. Is that not big enough, or would transport links be too difficult?

[/quote]

 

Does anyone know the answer to this?

[/quote]

I''ll pop over to Chase''s house for his opinion [:)]
[/quote]

 

Cheers. While you''re at it you might ask Chase how much he thinks Smith and Jones paid Watling for his shares...[:P][:D][;)]

[Tj 0]

It''s very rare I post on here, but after reading through the excellent and well thought out posts on this thread I thought I''d join in a little bit...with a inane and rambling post. Even though the club has had near capacity crowds for quite a few seasons, I can understand why they are waiting to be established in the Premier League before considering any ground expansion. Apart from the fact we nearly went bankrupt in recent times, I''d guess they are making sure the club is on a secure enough financial footing before investing what would be a large sum of money in increasing ground capacity, just in case the worst happens in the next couple of seasons and we pop back down the the Championship for a brief visit!I occasionally speak with someone at the club, and at the moment most the staff have been moved from the Geoffrey Watling stand to the Jarrold Stand, which will soon become pretty much totally empty of staff.I did ask if this was in preparation for expansion etc. but I was told the reason was that some recently vacated offices were avaliable in the Jarrold stand and they decided to use them instead of leaving them empty. If that was a smokescreen I don''t know, but it could be the start of a possible expansion plan.I''d love to have the increased capacity in the ground and feel that we would be able to fill it to near capacity whatever league we''re in. OTBC

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

I am not advocating the idea, but had always assumed if we did move to a greendfield site it would be our own training ground at Colney. Is that not big enough, or would transport links be too difficult?

[/quote]

 

Does anyone know the answer to this?

[/quote]

If you had been to the Colney training ground you would know its not big enough. Furthermore the land on the other side of the bypass has been lined up for business units related to spin offs related to the Norwich Research Park.

The existing road between the B1108 and Hethersett would not cope with matchday traffic and the B1108 is not much better with a choke point near Earlham Park.

[PKC 0]

Cluck I agree with your view that the current Football bubble is unsustainable and will at some point burst. However there is no guarantee that this will lead to a fall off of those attending games merely it will return the game to its core market. The effect would certainly lead to a reduction in the amount of money from TV deals less games covered live and hopefully a drop in player wages. Should this lead to a temporary drop in attendance admission prices could then drop leading to increased demand.

If I am right about your good self I’m sure you will have stood in many 30,000 plus crowds at Carrow Road.  

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

I am not advocating the idea, but had always assumed if we did move to a greendfield site it would be our own training ground at Colney. Is that not big enough, or would transport links be too difficult?

[/quote]

 

Does anyone know the answer to this?

[/quote]

If you had been to the Colney training ground you would know its not big enough. Furthermore the land on the other side of the bypass has been lined up for business units related to spin offs related to the Norwich Research Park.

The existing road between the B1108 and Hethersett would not cope with matchday traffic and the B1108 is not much better with a choke point near Earlham Park.

[/quote]

 

Thank you, Tangible. The reason I asked was, of course, that I have never been to Colney. Not entirely sure whether you mean it couldn''t accommodate a stadium by itself, or whether you mean it couldn''t accommodate a stadium as well as the training ground. The training ground could be relocated. As to roads, of course, they can be widened, and there are other means of transport (light railways, monorails etc) from the city centre that might come into play in the long run, which is the only way in which I think a greenfield site might be neceessary. I am talking decades ahead. But if the site is too small simply for a stadium then this idea would fall to the ground anyway.

[tom cavendish 0]

To answer a few points...

1. Cost of land for a new stadium - the UWE is letting Bristol have land on a

token lease so it is costing the club practically nothing.

The university want the stadium next to the Uni as they can

lease teaching space and the car park from the football club, which of course

the football club will make millions from.

If they can do it, then so could we with the UEA who own

lots of land.

2. Cost of new stadium - the cost of building the new Bristol stadium is being

covered by the sale of their existing stadium.

Therefore the cost of building their new stadium is costing

them nothing. They even expect to make a profit from the deal so that they will

clear their debts.

3. If the cost of a new stand at CR to add just 8,000 seats will cost £20m+ then you

might as well use that money towards a new stadium.

4. A problem with building a new main stand at CR is that it

will be closed for a long time whilst the work is being done, so the club will

lose millions through lost tickets sales etc. Whereas, building a new stadium

would mean the club wouldn''t make that loss.

5. You get millions more in grants towards a new stadium

that you do for redeveloping a stadium.

6. The club could probably take a lot of the fixtures and

fittings (such as seats) from CR to a new stadium, so saving costs.

7. If CR was sold then it would be up to the purchaser as to

whether or not they wanted to demolish it.

[tom cavendish 0]

To answer a few points...1. Cost of land for a new stadium - the UWE is letting Bristol have land on a token lease so it is costing the club practically nothing.

The university want the stadium next to the Uni as they can lease teaching space and the car park from the football club, which of course the football club will make millions from.

If they can do it, then so could we with the UEA who own lots of land.

2. Cost of new stadium - the cost of building the new Bristol stadium is being covered by the sale of their existing stadium.

Therefore the cost of building their new stadium is costing them nothing. They even expect to make a profit from the deal so that they will clear their debts.

3. If the cost of a new stand at CR to add just 8,000 seats will cost £20m+ then you might as well use that money towards a new stadium.

4. A problem with building a new main stand at CR is that it will be closed for a long time whilst the work is being done, so the club will lose millions through lost tickets sales etc. Whereas, building a new stadium would mean the club wouldn''t make that loss.

5. You get millions more in grants towards a new stadium that you do for redeveloping a stadium.

6. The club could probably take a lot of the fixtures and fittings (such as seats) from CR to a new stadium, so saving costs.

7. If CR was sold then it would be up to the purchaser as to whether or not they wanted to demolish it.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 As to roads, of course, they can be widened, and there are other means of transport (light railways, monorails etc) from the city centre that might come into play in the long run, .....

[/quote]

Once in a while I see / hear people go on about light railways, trams etc in the Norwich area. I would like to see the business case for such schemes especially after the Edinburgh fiasco.

BTW. I would imagine any additional road scheme would fall on the developer....so the cost of that  can be added to the £70m+

All that is needed is a new Geoffrey Watling stand and if sufficient demand is forthcoming we can add another tier to the Jarrold. That will take us towards 39,000 - 40,000. There is no need to do a costly relocation from Carrow Rd.

PS. Colney is nowhere near big enough for just a stadium and nor is it the right location anyway.

 

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="Old Shuck"]No-one is going to ''donate'' land-its all very well thinking someone like the UEA is going to give some land away to anyone, least of all a football club-after all, we wouldn''t be giving the Carrow Road site away-you can''t say "sell the ground and get ''x'' million and then get a few acres donated by the UEA"--they''re not a philanthropic institution, they need to survive, financially, in the current-and future-social and economic climate as much as we and anyone does. That land is as good as cash in the bank to them.[/quote]

Look at the Bristol

example. The football club gets the land for a stadium, and the Uni gets to

lease the stadium car park and teaching space. Both parties benefit.

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="Old Shuck"]

No-one is going to ''donate'' land-its all very well thinking someone like the UEA is going to give some land away to anyone, least of all a football club-after all, we wouldn''t be giving the Carrow Road site away-you can''t say "sell the ground and get ''x'' million and then get a few acres donated by the UEA"--they''re not a philanthropic institution, they need to survive, financially, in the current-and future-social and economic climate as much as we and anyone does. That land is as good as cash in the bank to them.

[/quote]Look at the Bristol example. The football club gets the land for a stadium, and the Uni gets to lease the stadium car park and teaching space. Both parties benefit.

[. 0]

[quote user="PKC"]

Cluck I agree with your view that the current Football bubble is unsustainable and will at some point burst. However there is no guarantee that this will lead to a fall off of those attending games merely it will return the game to its core market. The effect would certainly lead to a reduction in the amount of money from TV deals less games covered live and hopefully a drop in player wages. Should this lead to a temporary drop in attendance admission prices could then drop leading to increased demand.

If I am right about your good self I’m sure you will have stood in many 30,000 plus crowds at Carrow Road.  

[/quote]I have indeed PKC and it''s a shame that the younger supporters won''t ever be able to share that ''sardine'' experience!I''ve also stood in crowds of 14 to 15 thousand with a great team on the pitch and I can see that day returning one day. Then there would be ample room for all and a return to the ''core market'' would mean the owners of all clubs would have to work a lot harder to keep the gates up. 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]To answer a few points...

1. Cost of land for a new stadium - the UWE is letting Bristol have land on a token lease so it is costing the club practically nothing.


The university want the stadium next to the Uni as they can lease teaching space and the car park from the football club, which of course the football club will make millions from.


If they can do it, then so could we with the UEA who own lots of land.


[/quote]

The UEA has intentions to develop the Earlham Hall site, the ex Blackdale School site and if the planners allowed them to (but I doubt they would get permission) the Meadows (near the staff flats, looking towards Bluebell Rd in the distance). Furthermore you can give up the idea of developing the Broad and the area up to the Ziggarats (planners and various parties wouldnt allow it)....so that leaves the Colney Lane side of the river.

Now part of that is a steep slope towards Colney Lane....not suitable for a football stadium (and thats not even considering the objections coming from the residents at the Cringleford end of Colney lane). So that leaves a flat part near the cricket pavillion but that is not big enough for a football stadium.

As a side point,  the UEA is limited already with regard to the number of cars that can be parked there and they have just spend alot of money sorting out the main car park.

So prey tell us which part of the UEA campus would you locate a new stadium on?

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 As to roads, of course, they can be widened, and there are other means of transport (light railways, monorails etc) from the city centre that might come into play in the long run, .....

[/quote]

Once in a while I see / hear people go on about light railways, trams etc in the Norwich area. I would like to see the business case for such schemes especially after the Edinburgh fiasco.

BTW. I would imagine any additional road scheme would fall on the developer....so the cost of that  can be added to the £70m+

All that is needed is a new Geoffrey Watling stand and if sufficient demand is forthcoming we can add another tier to the Jarrold. That will take us towards 39,000 - 40,000. There is no need to do a costly relocation from Carrow Rd.

PS. Colney is nowhere near big enough for just a stadium and nor is it the right location anyway.

 

[/quote]

 

Tangible, thank you for the extra info about Colney, that it isn''t big enough just for a stadium. When you talk about a costly relocation, how costly is the "all that is needed" that you outline? At least £20m (club figures) for the Watling Stand and presumably at least another £10m for a second tier on the Jarrold. To take the capacity up by only 12,000-13,000 seats. That strikes me as pretty costly compared to your figure (which may or may not be right) of £70m for a whole new stadium.

 

I repeat I am not arguing for this in anything like the short term. But in the long run I can see a case for selling off Carrow Road and Colney for development, to help fund a greenfield stadium-cum-training ground complex on a site where transport links are easy.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]To answer a few points...

2. Cost of new stadium - the cost of building the new Bristol stadium is being covered by the sale of their existing stadium.


Therefore the cost of building their new stadium is costing them nothing. They even expect to make a profit from the deal so that they will clear their debts.


3. If the cost of a new stand at CR to add just 8,000 seats will cost £20m+ then you might as well use that money towards a new stadium.



5. You get millions more in grants towards a new stadium that you do for redeveloping a stadium.


6. The club could probably take a lot of the fixtures and fittings (such as seats) from CR to a new stadium, so saving costs.


7. If CR was sold then it would be up to the purchaser as to whether or not they wanted to demolish it.[/quote]

 

Re points 2) and 3) - please see my earlier post. Do you think NCFC could service a £70m+ loan?

Re 5) - we have already received a £2m grant when the Barclay was rebuilt. So could you please identify the source of these grants?

Re 6) - How much do you think it would cost to remove the various fixtures and fittings? Labour is not free.

Re 7) - If you expect the purchaser to pay the costs of demolition then expect a corresponding reduction in the purchase price!

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]

Look at the Bristol example. The football club gets the land for a stadium, and the Uni gets to lease the stadium car park and teaching space. Both parties benefit.

[/quote]

The UEA doesnt need another car park on the main campus as it is limited by the planners as to how many cars can be parked there!