Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
norwichyellow

stadium expansion

Recommended Posts

Whatever feasibility study he has asked the UEA to carry out, it will be connected with expansion at Carrow Road.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="tom cavendish"]McNally said at the POS night that the UEA have been asked about the feasibility of stadium expansion.It seems as if he has read my suggestion that NCFC should look into a stadium partnership with the UEA.[/quote]Or he is supporting the local University by offering their students/research staff a valuable experience...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I''m not a finance guy but I''d guess one reason why we have been able to stave off adminstration and continue notwithstanding a big pile of debt is that NCFC owns CR. Selling off the land/ground to Ikea and renting a site on someone else''s ground would significantly affect the balance sheet and the club''s assets and be a poor long term measure. We''d be someone else''s tenant. The UEA proposal discussed on here with its detailed car parking stats just sounds ludicrous to me.

What the club need to think about is why we sell out which is certainly not, except of late, because of quality of football. For me this is a combination of restricted supply and the matchday experience. I reckon the former dates back to the south stand demolition which fortunately coincided with a promotion and a consequent rush to guarantee seats by buying season tickets. Since then I do believe that because of the difficulty of obtaining casual tickets, season ticket sales have remained high. I do feel that excess capacity could actually reduce demand for season tickets and building too big a stadium could result in Middlesbrough type crowds (they have a 34K stadium with attendances around 17K now and no atmosphere) or even worse Coventry. Even Southampton''s crowds only picked up towards the end of the season, with a large stadioum and easier availability folks could pick and choose their games. So, the Board need to balance supply and demand to maintain this tension, I reckon 30K is good, with 32K tops, which means repacing the GW with  Jarrold type stand or another tier on the GW doubling its capacity. That would give the stadium a nice aesthetic balance too.

The second factor should also not be underestimated and I do feel that it is the very location of CR which greatly helps fill the stadium. The buzz on a matchday of walking down from the centre through Riverside with the lively  bars and eateries with a sea of yellow outside in the sun is truly part of the experience. Seeing the people going to the game milling around in Gentlemen''s Walk at lunchtime, maybe combining shopping and footie, the pubs full and anticipation high. The very accessibility of CR to a huge target audience which spills into the centre every Saturday and can easily reach the ground in a steady 15 mins walk. Remove all this and relocate to a greenfield site and it will be a much more functional and perhaps soulless experience.

The club should design the GW expansion now, get planning permission which I think lasts for a few years, go out to tender for contracts (should also get a good price now with the economy slow), prepare to move GW tickets holders into a temp hotel corner, Jarrold casual area and Community stand, and as soon as safety is mathematically achieved in 2013 press the button. If we get relegated, put the plans in the box and dust it off next time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mcnally has plans for 35,000 seater stadium. He wouldn''t say it if he didn''t think it could be filled. end of. There is no reason why it cant be filled, were a big club with a big fan base.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Old Shuck"]Whatever feasibility study he has asked the UEA to carry out, it will be connected with expansion at Carrow Road.[/quote]

 

I don''t get the logic of that. Has the UEA some particular expertise in stadium construction? It is famous for its climate research department and its creative writing centre, but building projects? If the club wanted a feasibiity study on expanding Carrow Road it would normally hire experts in the shape of a development/construction company. If it is involving the UEA I would have thought that is because moving there is an option (however unlikely) that is being considered by the club.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with everything you say about Carrow Road Tumbleweed and thought it very well put. To even think about selling it off and becoming tenants somewhere would reduce us to the level of the paupers down the road. Our stadium has, and always will be our greatest asset, finacially and, as you mentioned, aesthetically. The match-day experience is truly enhanced by all the pleasures you mentioned.

 

Thirty-two thousand would do for me (or at least one more than the Portaloo for pathetic bragging rights), although I am happy to go along with McNally''s plans, as they will have been well researched and our catchment is large and somewhat unique with no rival within forty miles of the City and considerably more for most of the County. I also feel that the game is gradually shifting away from traditional areas, but that is another topic altogether..

 

I, personally would prefer to see something done about the Main Stand. It is smaller than the other three and gives the ground a disjointed look. It''s facilties are dated. It is the obvious for replacement or expanding, for me at least.

 

Finally, a side point, but should any expansion infringe upon season time, would this not be considered justification for temporarily banning away supporters in order to accommodate more of our own  in away seating?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Old Shuck"]Whatever feasibility study he has asked the UEA to carry out, it will be connected with expansion at Carrow Road.[/quote]

 

I don''t get the logic of that. Has the UEA some particular expertise in stadium construction? It is famous for its climate research department and its creative writing centre, but building projects? If the club wanted a feasibiity study on expanding Carrow Road it would normally hire experts in the shape of a development/construction company. If it is involving the UEA I would have thought that is because moving there is an option (however unlikely) that is being considered by the club.

[/quote]

 

Yep, have to hold my hands up to that Purple, ill conceived and thought out response by self.

 

I really can''t see it happening-makes no sense at all. I guess, at a push, they will consider it just so they can rule it out. Can''t see it happening unless the financial side of it benefits the club in a way that is beyond generous-and thats not going to happen at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Old Shuck"]Whatever feasibility study he has asked the UEA to carry out, it will be connected with expansion at Carrow Road.[/quote]

 

I don''t get the logic of that. Has the UEA some particular expertise in stadium construction? It is famous for its climate research department and its creative writing centre, but building projects? If the club wanted a feasibiity study on expanding Carrow Road it would normally hire experts in the shape of a development/construction company. If it is involving the UEA I would have thought that is because moving there is an option (however unlikely) that is being considered by the club.

[/quote]

Or a Quantity Surveyor...like myself, who is able to calculate current construction costs (currently low = obviously due to economy)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Old Shuck"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Old Shuck"]Whatever feasibility study he has asked the UEA to carry out, it will be connected with expansion at Carrow Road.[/quote]

 

I don''t get the logic of that. Has the UEA some particular expertise in stadium construction? It is famous for its climate research department and its creative writing centre, but building projects? If the club wanted a feasibiity study on expanding Carrow Road it would normally hire experts in the shape of a development/construction company. If it is involving the UEA I would have thought that is because moving there is an option (however unlikely) that is being considered by the club.

[/quote]

 

Yep, have to hold my hands up to that Purple, ill conceived and thought out response by self.

 

I really can''t see it happening-makes no sense at all. I guess, at a push, they will consider it just so they can rule it out. Can''t see it happening unless the financial side of it benefits the club in a way that is beyond generous-and thats not going to happen at the moment.

[/quote]

 

Fair enough, Old Shuck! I can see why they would at least look at a greenfield option, if only to reject it, because the logistics/cost of increasing capacity at Carrow Road are horrendous, assuming they decide to knock down the City Stand and build from scratch. According to the club the work would take 18 months to 2 years (I don''t quite know why so long when The Jarrold took 10 or 11 months) so that length of time without the revenue from 5,000 or so fans. Plus the logistics of trying to relocate those fans. And the estimate is at least £20m for the extra 8,000 fans, when for perhaps three times that you could have a whole new stadium.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Like I say, it makes sense that part of the stadium  (regardless of location) is funded by teaching space leased to the UEA (as in the Bristol example which is being used to help fund a new stadium). You can get far more money from that than if leased as office space, and the UEA would likely be reliable long-term tenants.The income would go a long way towards paying for a huge new stand.As for the feasibility of moving to a whole new stadium or staying at CR... VALUE OF CRThe site would be of enormous value to Ikea. Ikea don''t have a store in the East but want one. CR would be a logical location for an Ikea store and there are hundreds of apartments (and hundreds more yet to be built) next to the site.LANDIf the UEA doesn''t have enough land, then the UEA can probably access finance to purchase additional land.As with the Bristol example, NCFC could lease the land from the UEA for a peppercorn rent. This vastly reduces the cost of a new stadium.This means that the proceeds from CR could be used towards build costs rather than purchasing land.ADDITIONAL REVENUEIt makes sense to generate non match-day revenue from a stadium car park, and the UEA do need additional parking spaces that are the equivalent of a stadium car park.Leasing teaching space to the UEA (as explained above).Students using bars etc. on non match-days.Lease a small convenience store at the stadium (to Sainsburys) that would be used by students living on the campus.An increase in the number of students going to matches.It would be logical to have a new stadium near to the UEA Sportspark and turn the area into a hub of sporting excellence sharing facilities.Bigger capacity stadium.An iconic design would attract tourists to a new stadium for tours on non-match-days.Also consider that by moving to a new stadium, there would be no loss in revenue whilst building (whereas if staying at CR the old stand would have to be closed).FEASIBILITYI hope people can see that regardless of whether NCFC stay at CR or have a new stadium, it is logical that NCFC follow the example of Bristol by having a partnership with the local uni to help fund the stadium, and provide the football club with new non match-day income streams.Hopefully people can see the logic in a partnership with the UEA without being abusive towards me for suggesting it. It certainly seems as if McNally thinks it is an idea worth exploring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well one things for sure, that damn hotel has become even more of a nusiance and a complete corner infil there would be the very first step or more precisely, would have been done already.

 

Pity we can''t knock that down. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My recollection is that the club have an interest in a JV which owns the hotel. You''d have to buy out the other party or relocate the hotel or exchange its interesty in the hotel for a share of something else, such as a percentage of the stadium ownership.

 

If you put in another 1500 seats, assuming full capacity and £35 ticket price you''d get £52,500 per game, which is about £1m for a prem season. Add in extra programmes sales, merchandising, advertising space and catering etc and the revenue could be about £1.2m. At a build cost of £3.75m (on McNally''s figures of £2.5K per seat) you''d be roughly even on build costs after 3 decent years. Then the only additional outlay is financial compensation for the hotel and loan interest. No lost revenue from moving others.

 

Might not be such a wacky thought. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Where is our very own UEA expert when you need him.[;)] Oh sorry i forgot he will not be bullied into answering questions.[:P]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Tumbleweed"]

My recollection is that the club have an interest in a JV which owns the hotel. You''d have to buy out the other party or relocate the hotel or exchange its interesty in the hotel for a share of something else, such as a percentage of the stadium ownership.

 

If you put in another 1500 seats, assuming full capacity and £35 ticket price you''d get £52,500 per game, which is about £1m for a prem season. Add in extra programmes sales, merchandising, advertising space and catering etc and the revenue could be about £1.2m. At a build cost of £3.75m (on McNally''s figures of £2.5K per seat) you''d be roughly even on build costs after 3 decent years. Then the only additional outlay is financial compensation for the hotel and loan interest. No lost revenue from moving others.

 

Might not be such a wacky thought. 

[/quote]

 

Leaving aside whether the hotel would agree to be moved (and to where?) that build cost is, I am pretty certain, for straight-line stands, such as The Jarrold or a rebuilt City Stand. It apparently costs far more per seat for infills. That is partly why the old regime didn''t go ahead with that as as idea. At a time when we were in debt anyway, and there was not an obvious need for extra seats, it would have been disproportionately expensive to do the infill. It was a sensible decision, much as we all hate the hotel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Living in Colchester where they have a new ground on the outskirts of town (as most will know from our trip there a couple of years back).

Although there attendances were never high. Being out on the edge of town is just stupid.

When you see after our games he crowd move in all areas, down Carrow Road, up into the city centre, train station, back up Carrow hill towards City Hall.

Would anyone really like to be out on UEA campus? No thanks from me, i''m sure several fans who catch train would also be very unhappy with this move as its currently ideal location.

Carrow Road is where we should be, so end of story!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="tom cavendish"]Like I say, it makes sense that part of the stadium  (regardless of location) is funded by teaching space leased to the UEA (as in the Bristol example which is being used to help fund a new stadium). You can get far more money from that than if leased as office space, and the UEA would likely be reliable long-term tenants.

The income would go a long way towards paying for a huge new stand.

As for the feasibility of moving to a whole new stadium or staying at CR...

VALUE OF CR

The site would be of enormous value to Ikea. Ikea don''t have a store in the East but want one. CR would be a logical location for an Ikea store and there are hundreds of apartments (and hundreds more yet to be built) next to the site.

LAND

If the UEA doesn''t have enough land, then the UEA can probably access finance to purchase additional land.

As with the Bristol example, NCFC could lease the land from the UEA for a peppercorn rent. This vastly reduces the cost of a new stadium.

This means that the proceeds from CR could be used towards build costs rather than purchasing land.

ADDITIONAL REVENUE

It makes sense to generate non match-day revenue from a stadium car park, and the UEA do need additional parking spaces that are the equivalent of a stadium car park.

Leasing teaching space to the UEA (as explained above).

Students using bars etc. on non match-days.

Lease a small convenience store at the stadium (to Sainsburys) that would be used by students living on the campus.

An increase in the number of students going to matches.

It would be logical to have a new stadium near to the UEA Sportspark and turn the area into a hub of sporting excellence sharing facilities.

Bigger capacity stadium.

An iconic design would attract tourists to a new stadium for tours on non-match-days.

Also consider that by moving to a new stadium, there would be no loss in revenue whilst building (whereas if staying at CR the old stand would have to be closed).

FEASIBILITY

I hope people can see that regardless of whether NCFC stay at CR or have a new stadium, it is logical that NCFC follow the example of Bristol by having a partnership with the local uni to help fund the stadium, and provide the football club with new non match-day income streams.

Hopefully people can see the logic in a partnership with the UEA without being abusive towards me for suggesting it. It certainly seems as if McNally thinks it is an idea worth exploring.

[/quote]

 

MENTAL

1. Teaching space, ie labs, lecture theatres, seminar rooms, etc do not fit well into the concourses of a football stadium. Teaching space is usually funded when the design is for actual dedicated teaching space. The UEA have to lease the space to the various schools and faculties, that could be quite a tough sell explaining why studies/exams/etc have to be cancelled due to a playoff final or reserve match

2. Have you even been to the UEA lately? You may have noticed that there are several green bits that do not have buildings on them. This isn''t because they''re waiting to build a football stadium on them, but due to the fact that NOTHING can be built on them due to planning/preservation status.

3. Have you ever been to Sparks In The Park? The fireworks display on Earlham Park next to UEA (not UEA land!) The congestion/carparking/general chaos is just once a year and barely tolerated by local residents. Can''t see 30,000+ people turning up in cars (because lets face it its not in the city and there''s only 1 bus route and 3 single roads in) going down well or running too smoothly. For a start there is no giant car park and building one would wipe out any hope the UEA has of ever reducing its carbon footprint (which is required for some elements of funding). Its just a no go.

4. Security. Imagine 6,000 away fans trampling over everything, chucking litter everywhere, nicking anything of opportunity, hassling students aots. You''d need to CCTV the entire place, have security Thats before we factor in our own support.

 

In summary, you''re a tit.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moving to the UEA is a non starter for me living fairly close by. The road infrastructure is not capable handling 30,000 crowds,public transport is useless,access from both the A47 and A11 is along minor roads.Parking at the UEA and the very close by N & N University hospital is at a premium.To move from Carrow Road is a total no no in my book both logistically and financially.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You''re probably right Purple, but it was short-term thinking and it is misplaced for so many reasons.

 

I just wonder if McNally would have sanctioned it at the time. Either economically or aesthetically.

 

It''s all a pity really because it is a nice hotel, I visited it once whilst not actually staying there. To most NCFC supporters it is a carbunckle on the face of Carrow Road, to mis-quote Charlie Boy.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

You''re probably right Purple, but it was short-term thinking and it is misplaced for so many reasons.

 

I just wonder if McNally would have sanctioned it at the time. Either economically or aesthetically.

 

It''s all a pity really because it is a nice hotel, I visited it once whilst not actually staying there. To most NCFC supporters it is a carbunckle on the face of Carrow Road, to mis-quote Charlie Boy.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Broadstairs, you are saying we should have gone further into debt? We found ourselves in a position where we couldn''t meet the debt obligations we did have, and you think we should have taken a decision that would have made that situation worse?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the future, NCFC will be looking to attract a lot more fans from outside of Norwich towards Cambridge and King''s Lynn. A new stadium in the UEA area of Norwich would be good for attracting fans from those areas, particuly if there was a big new carpark. Another consideration is that the A11 is to be improved.Not forgetting that the UEA is already very well connected for local bus routes.There are also plans to vastly increase the number of houses in the Hethersett area etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Norwich City should stay at Carrow road.This opinion is in no way biased by the fact that I can see the ground from my flat.[:D]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As a matter of interest I believe Colney was originally purchased with a new stadium in mind and a rail siding to link to the site.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="morty"]Norwich City should stay at Carrow road.

This opinion is in no way biased by the fact that I can see the ground from my flat.

[:D]
[/quote]

 

My equally unbiased view is that the club should relocate to my tax haven. There is ample space between the groves of palm trees.[ip]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="BroadstairsR"]

You''re probably right Purple, but it was short-term thinking and it is misplaced for so many reasons.

 

I just wonder if McNally would have sanctioned it at the time. Either economically or aesthetically.

 

It''s all a pity really because it is a nice hotel, I visited it once whilst not actually staying there. To most NCFC supporters it is a carbunckle on the face of Carrow Road, to mis-quote Charlie Boy.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Broadstairs, you are saying we should have gone further into debt? We found ourselves in a position where we couldn''t meet the debt obligations we did have, and you think we should have taken a decision that would have made that situation worse?

[/quote]

 

 

I did say you were probably right, but hindsight has made that decision a mistake.

 

Was the construction of the hotel there that profitable for us? I can''t recall how much we got for the site to be honest.

I shouldn''t think we profit too much from our share of it''s takings.

 

This thread has split two ways now between the Carra and the UEA. Good stuff all-round.

 

I can''t come round to your way of thinking Tom, but you present an excellent case which would benefit from more consideration if Carrow Road  was not so right for the Club in so many other ways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="tom cavendish"]In the future, NCFC will be looking to attract a lot more fans from outside of Norwich towards Cambridge and King''s Lynn. A new stadium in the UEA area of Norwich would be good for attracting fans from those areas, particuly if there was a big new carpark. Another consideration is that the A11 is to be improved.

Not forgetting that the UEA is already very well connected for local bus routes.

There are also plans to vastly increase the number of houses in the Hethersett area etc.


[/quote]

Far more houses "planned" for the Rackheath and North Eastern triangle area of Norwich than Hethersett plus the "planned" Northern Distributor Road so using your logic they should build there. Only problem is that houses will bring in more cash to BDC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="tom cavendish"]In the future, NCFC will be looking to attract a lot more fans from outside of Norwich towards Cambridge and King''s Lynn. A new stadium in the UEA area of Norwich would be good for attracting fans from those areas, particuly if there was a big new carpark. Another consideration is that the A11 is to be improved.Not forgetting that the UEA is already very well connected for local bus routes.There are also plans to vastly increase the number of houses in the Hethersett area etc.

[/quote]Are these people incapable of driving a further 5-10 miles down the road?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having reflected on the UEA proposal I think it only slightly less ludicrous to move to the Olympic stadium and ground share with Leyton Orient. We could turn their stadium into  a car park to service the UEA. With fast trains into/out of liverpool street (the carriages would make excellent labs/ teaching pods on non match days) and a huge catchment area in E London we''d be bound to attract more fans who care not a jot about the matchday experience but want to see their Manchester based team play live without having to fork out for a Sky subscription. We''d have the hardcore 3,000 away trippers from Norfolk plus 57,000 jellied eel eating locals shouting "On the ball Norwich Orient, never mind the journey". McNally would be mad to turn it down. I hear the two Bristol clubs might be considering it too................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="TIL 1010"]Moving to the UEA is a non starter for me living fairly close by. The road infrastructure is not capable handling 30,000 crowds,public transport is useless,access from both the A47 and A11 is along minor roads.Parking at the UEA and the very close by N & N University hospital is at a premium.To move from Carrow Road is a total no no in my book both logistically and financially.[/quote]LogisticallyMore than 40,000 people attend and work at the UEA plus people attend events held there, so the area can certainly cope with a lot of people. Football matches tend to be on a weekend or evening when few people would be at the UEA so it should cope fine.FinanciallyAs PurpleCanary has said, £20m (the cost of a new stand at CR) could go a long way towards the cost of a new stadium. Also consider that CR would be worth a lot to Ikea, that NCFC wouldn''t have to purchase land (could use UEA land), a new stadium would have lower maintenance costs, and the UEA could provide massive new income streams. NCFC could probably even save money by using the seats etc. from CR at a new stadium. If you add it up, it could well be that a new stadium offers the best value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moving to the university would not work.they wont have the road structure in place and if you want to attract more fans from Kings Lynn then surely moving close to the A47 is an option....Easton would be an option...out past Cantley would be an option too for the A11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="morty"]Norwich City should stay at Carrow road.This opinion is in no way biased by the fact that I can see the ground from my flat.[:D][/quote]

 

My equally unbiased view is that the club should relocate to my tax haven. There is ample space between the groves of palm trees.[ip]

[/quote]Where do you live, if you don''t mind me asking?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...