our midfield problems

[grefstad 0]

I''m not fickle, and I normally do not rant on footballers trying their best.

But Lambert must surely have seen the limitations of Crofts and Johnson. Both are supposed to be our "hard men", but they rarely seem to be stuck in, "never" tackles, and I believe Johnson has avoided a yellow card all season, which sums it up for me. We lack serious presence in midfield, espescially when Wes are playing, because playing Wes is a gamble at this level, since he is playing on small margins, and will often lose the ball with his creative link up play, short passing, etc. To be effective when playing Wes, we need the other midfielders to regain the ball when lost, and this has not happened often enough this season.

Both Johnson and Crofts are too often off the pace. They lack energy / frequency/work rate to compensate for lack of pace, and the pacage is just not good enough for Premier League.

Seeing Crofts in central midfield on Wednesday, after Wes was subbed, was a sorry sight. He''s close control is letting him down (as is Johnson''s), and it took forever to control the ball and pass it on. All his passes were usually going backwards, or at best sideways.

Imho, we are in serious lack of pace in midfield. Only the wingers have pace, and sadly only Pilks seem to want to use it. Bennett seem to lack a bit of confidence, but he should try to beat his man more often.

Surman, Crofts, Johnson, Fox...they all lack legs to compete, I feel.

Fox is a base player, good with the ball, excellent in spraying it around, but playing him and Wes in a diamond formation is only possible when we expect to have the ball a lot. When playing the diamond, we need a player at the base with more presence and energy, one who can mop it up, break up opposition play, and generally to the dirty work. Johnson could have been this man, but he isnt.

Maybe Howson could answer our needs? He is more likely to be on the top of a diamond though.

Also, I like the thought of a 4-2-2-1-1 solution with 2 defensive midfielders (maybe Johnson/Surman, later Howson for Surman), 2 wingers (Pilks/Bennett), and Wes supporting the lone striker (Morison). Should give us more pace going forward with at least 3 men who can run (Pilks, Bennett, Morison), Wes feeding off the scrap provided by Johnson and Surman to release the wingers/Morison.

Thoughts?

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

I don''t really see the problems with our midfield that everyone else is talking about - they have done superbly up to the Sunderland game. They were just outplayed that day - it will happen, they aren''t all world class players but they have all shown in games this season why they are good enough.

 

The main problem for them on Wednesday was they had no where to move the ball to, Sunderland were closing down quickly and Larson and McClean are both also hard working players shutting off space. Once Sunderland went a goal up, they could sit deeper and invite a little bit of pressure onto them. Since O''Neill''s arrival they have given every team they have played a tough time - the lack of Fox meant Norwich couldn''t get a hold of the ball in the first 10-15mins and this made them nervous. Colback did a good job making sure Hoolahan had nowhere to go and Larson would close down Surman to make sure he also had no space, Norwich were forced into quick long balls to Holt and Morison but they had little chance as no one was able to get close to support them.

 

 

[Wishbone 8]

Our ambition is to stay up and we''re doing it so far with a squad mostly containing good championship quality players!

Howson and Bennett are further improvements to what we have but I''m sure Lambert realises the floors in the side and will hope to unearth a Tiote or Fellaini type player in the summer!

[Scooby 0]

[quote user "Wishbone" Our ambition is to stay up and we''re doing it so far with a squad mostly containing good championship quality players!

Howson and Bennett are further improvements to what we have but I''m sure Lambert realises the floors in the side and will hope to unearth a Tiote or Fellaini type player in the summer! quote]

?? Are we ground floor and Sunderland 2nd floor?? (sorry, couldn''t resist)

[Salopian 1]

I agree largely with grefstad.

 

Apart from our wingers, the most creative midfielders are Wes and Surman, and possibly Fox. Unfortunately, none of them dominate - they are rapier rathrather than cudgel, good to watch in skill but not in tackling or dominating.

 

The diamond has produced plenty of goals, although the quick passing seems to have been limited to very brief bursts recently, but it is lightweight. Wes, Sur and Fox do their best - getting back to tackle, even head off the line. I think that at times, however, the midfield seems to evaporate and opposing teams overwhelm them. Fortunately for us, the defence seems to be improving.

[GJP 79]

I also think the OP makes some good points.

 

We have got a problem with pace through the middle of the park - we''re not well equipped to deal with it. Bradley Johnson is very much a 1 speed player, he doesn''t really have a turn of pace. He struggles with pacey players running at him and he can also be a bit sluggish with the ball at his feet, leading to him being robbed of the ball more than he should.

 

Crofts will give you his all but he''s usually chasing shadows and gives you nothing going forward with the ball at this level.

 

Fox and Hoolahan are obviously far superior with their use of the ball but then you do need someone in there with them who is a bit more mobile, which I would guess is where Howson will come into the picture.

[Aggy 752]

I think both Crofts and Johnson seemed to be a yard or two off the pace midweek. The midfield is good enough to last us this season and keep us up fairly comfortably, but long term we certainly need someone who can put themselves about a bit and win the ball back.

We won''t ever have a side made up of brutes, they don''t fit the way we play, and I''d rather us be open with a focus on going forward than become a long ball, shut-up-shop bully side, as I''m sure most of us would.

In saying that though, one ball winner is definitely needed - a Makelele role if you will; get the ball and make a simple pass to Hoolahan, Fox, Surman or the wingers, depending on what formation we''re playing at the time.

[Mark .Y. 351]

Would have loved to seen Owen Hargreaves arrive here on loan during the transfer window, would be exactly what we need I think but obviously with Man City paying his wages.

 

Mark .Y. 

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

[quote user="grefstad"]

I''m not fickle, and I normally do not rant on footballers trying their best.

But Lambert must surely have seen the limitations of Crofts and Johnson. Both are supposed to be our "hard men", but they rarely seem to be stuck in, "never" tackles, and I believe Johnson has avoided a yellow card all season, which sums it up for me. We lack serious presence in midfield, espescially when Wes are playing, because playing Wes is a gamble at this level, since he is playing on small margins, and will often lose the ball with his creative link up play, short passing, etc. To be effective when playing Wes, we need the other midfielders to regain the ball when lost, and this has not happened often enough this season.

Both Johnson and Crofts are too often off the pace. They lack energy / frequency/work rate to compensate for lack of pace, and the pacage is just not good enough for Premier League.

Seeing Crofts in central midfield on Wednesday, after Wes was subbed, was a sorry sight. He''s close control is letting him down (as is Johnson''s), and it took forever to control the ball and pass it on. All his passes were usually going backwards, or at best sideways.

Imho, we are in serious lack of pace in midfield. Only the wingers have pace, and sadly only Pilks seem to want to use it. Bennett seem to lack a bit of confidence, but he should try to beat his man more often.

Surman, Crofts, Johnson, Fox...they all lack legs to compete, I feel.

Fox is a base player, good with the ball, excellent in spraying it around, but playing him and Wes in a diamond formation is only possible when we expect to have the ball a lot. When playing the diamond, we need a player at the base with more presence and energy, one who can mop it up, break up opposition play, and generally to the dirty work. Johnson could have been this man, but he isnt.

Maybe Howson could answer our needs? He is more likely to be on the top of a diamond though.

Also, I like the thought of a 4-2-2-1-1 solution with 2 defensive midfielders (maybe Johnson/Surman, later Howson for Surman), 2 wingers (Pilks/Bennett), and Wes supporting the lone striker (Morison). Should give us more pace going forward with at least 3 men who can run (Pilks, Bennett, Morison), Wes feeding off the scrap provided by Johnson and Surman to release the wingers/Morison.

Thoughts?

[/quote]

That''s less of a formation - more like a queue! :-)

[Joanna Grey 0]

Having players that pull up short on one or more aspects of midfielding is a huge problem, whether that be passing, running with the ball, tackling, scoring or pace. Obviously PL realises this and will be bringing in Essien and Toure in the summer to give the lads a hand.

[. 0]

Errrrrrrr..... 5th Round of the FA Cup and mid table in the World''s most competitive league? Midfield problems?More ridiculous over expectation...........

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

Don''t think I have ever agreed with Joanna and Cluckbert in one thread before - but I do now.

 

The thing that has most impressed me about Lambert so far this season is nearly always picking the right midfield combo for the game - I suspect Fox was left out due to the pitch not being condusive to passing football. This did backfire a bit for him, but there aren''t too many times you can say that.

[Aggy 752]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert"]Errrrrrrr..... 5th Round of the FA Cup and mid table in the World''s most competitive league? Midfield problems?More ridiculous over expectation...........[/quote]

Not over expectation at all. More looking at the weaknesses in the squad and discussing how we can improve upon them. Every club in the world can improve, even Barcelona fans will be discussing how they can improve their squad. Why shouldn''t we?

[mozzaman 0]

"Not over expectation at all. More looking at the weaknesses in the squad and discussing how we can improve upon them."

I have the same problem. As an away season ticket holder I''ve seen a lot of the players this season and my long drunken journeys home have been almost always happy. Including, for example, when returning from Everton. However, a good result doesn''t preclude my right/propensity to cast a critical eye. One can simultaneously be generally happy with the status quo (I''ve never been happier) and critical of the finer aspects that aren''t working so well. Even us Norwich fans are capable of this.

On every single thread discussing a negative feature, you tend to get the same crap from the same people, criticising people who come up with really interesting perspectives on things that aren''t working so well.

So, in the spirit of the OP''s post, I would agree. The bad result on Wednesday had been coming. In many of the away games we have been lucky, allowing us to overlook the obvious frailties. Johnson has been made to look average on several occasions this season. Only against Sunderland did it contribute to us getting drilled. Referring back to the Everton game (in which Surman was for the first time absolutely superb), Johnson was fairly "poo" in the time he was on the pitch, culminating in him falling over for the Everton equaliser.

The OP is right. Johnson, despite looking excellent in preseason I thought, has neither the skill or pace required to be a decent midfield player. Us away ST holders have been saying this for a while. He''s nothing without his tackling, and on countless occassions he missed his tackles.

What good is a player only good at tackling who misses his tackles?

Not much. Can''t wait to see Jonny Howson.

OTBC

[. 0]

[quote user="Aggy"][quote user="Paul Cluckbert"]Errrrrrrr..... 5th Round of the FA Cup and mid table in the World''s most competitive league? Midfield problems?More ridiculous over expectation...........[/quote]

Not over expectation at all. More looking at the weaknesses in the squad and discussing how we can improve upon them. Every club in the world can improve, even Barcelona fans will be discussing how they can improve their squad. Why shouldn''t we?[/quote]Because we''re small fry in a big pond....It''s all about survival until we can grow big enough to take the bigger fish on.... something Paul Lambert and his team are already trying to do.I suspect the vast majority of ''fans'' would have snatched your hand off if offered this in August.

[Aggy 752]

And what has that got to do with wanting to improve the squad? You almost seem to be suggesting that the best way to stay up would be to NOT discuss the weaknesses in the side, but continue blindly and hope they sort themselves out. What great logic that is.

[Shack Attack 0]

To refer to a ''midfield problem'' is a little over the top but the OP does make some decent points. The way in which we set up does not require us to dominate possesion and control the midfield. There have been plenty of games this season where I have been desperate for us to control things more in the middle of the park but I think we just have to accept that that is not going to happen. I''d like to see us utilise Fox more often but it seems clear that we don''t have a strong enough midfielder to play alongside him in a 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 to control possession and that he perhaps can''t reprise his role at the base of the diamond in the Premier League.

 

It''s not a major problem though as our current position in the table proves. I don''t like seeing Crofts and Johnson in the same midfield as I feel they are both a little bit limited but that is probably something to address for next season.

 

 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]

To refer to a ''midfield problem'' is a little over the top but the OP does make some decent points. The way in which we set up does not require us to dominate possesion and control the midfield. There have been plenty of games this season where I have been desperate for us to control things more in the middle of the park but I think we just have to accept that that is not going to happen. I''d like to see us utilise Fox more often but it seems clear that we don''t have a strong enough midfielder to play alongside him in a 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 to control possession and that he perhaps can''t reprise his role at the base of the diamond in the Premier League.

 

It''s not a major problem though as our current position in the table proves. I don''t like seeing Crofts and Johnson in the same midfield as I feel they are both a little bit limited but that is probably something to address for next season.

[/quote]

 

He''s played that position several times already this season and has looked good there - the deepest midfielder in the diamond in no way has to be a big 6 foot plus player. Most of their work is just being in the right place at the right time, something I think Fox has a natural understanding of. He is a similar player to Carrick in many ways - who is a player who also sits deep and mops up any problems.

 

I do agree with you about Crofts and Johnson, but feel this is where Howson will come in - replacing Crofts on the right of the diamond.

[Aggy 752]

I quite like Fox deep as well, I think he string the defensive to attacking transition together quite nicely, with Hoolahan being able to deal with the final third. It''s the two that you put between Fox and Hoolahan that is the problem. Surman has recently stepped up to the plate and been pretty good, but the other space is difficult. We don''t need to dominate sides in there, but it would be nice to have at least one player who can break up opposition attacks (I think the lack of this is one of the reasons for our lack of clean sheets) and give the ball to the three more creative players around him.

Personally, I do feel that a diamond with Hoolahan at the top, Fox at the bottom and Surman/Howson alongside a ball winner would be well balanced, whilst still playing our way.

[Beauseant 0]

Clearly there is an overreaction going on, and I agree that the players have done tremendously. Much against my better judgement I have to say that I agree with Cluck up to a point about what we can expect from what we have. I think that the base of the diamond, or the holding player in any system is key, but quality in that position comes at a very high price.

I think many people would agree that Scott Parker is currently the best holding midfielder in the Premiership because he has the greatest discipline. I think that one of the reasons that Chelsea and Arsenal have dropped off the pace is that they lack anyone as effective as him. If you watch him closely he ticks off all the golden rules; he plays what he sees, he keeps possession and he never leaves his central defenders exposed. However, the other thing that you''ll notice is that he is always on the move and never dwells on the ball. Compare that with Johnson for the second goal on Wednesday. He received the ball when he was flat footed, dwelt on it and was robbed. That''s not to slate Johnson, who is a young lad learning his trade at the highest level whereas Parker is an established international with a mountain of experience, but it does illustrate the point.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

He''s played that position several times already this season and has looked good there - the deepest midfielder in the diamond in no way has to be a big 6 foot plus player. Most of their work is just being in the right place at the right time, something I think Fox has a natural understanding of. He is a similar player to Carrick in many ways - who is a player who also sits deep and mops up any problems.

[/quote]

 

I''ve never said that you have to be a six foot plus brute to play in that position. But when comparing Fox and Carrick you have to take account of the fact that one plays for a team who averages 44.1% possesion of the ball and the other playes for a team who averages 56.3%. Put simply Fox has an awful lot more defending to do in most matches. I like Fox playing as a deep lying midfielder. His range of passing is better than anybody else in our squad and when we get him on the ball enough we look a much better side. But I''m not convinced he can cope with playing on his own at the base of the diamond and would prefer to see him as one of two in a 4-2-3-1 if selected.

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

I think the original poster & others make some valid points.

Obviously we''re doing something right in picking up 29 points but the midfield has always been an area where I think improvement needs to be made most.

Prior to the window closing this week, i''ve been calling for a hybrid midfield player because Fox, Crofts & Johnson have glaring limitations.

They all have their part to play but the balance is an issue. Sunderland it was totally wrong with Crofts-Johnson playing together. The diamond with it''s lack of width requires players that are comfortable in possession & move off it.

Lambert at times has benched Fox because of his lack of mobility & defensive qualities but when he is absent we miss him.

We''ve given up the midfield battle consistently this season because we don''t have a player to command our play on & off the ball.

Howson is a very good signing & will add another dimension, but....he is an attack-minded player not a player that sits slightly deeper.

Korey Smith could potentially help out because he is comfortable in possession & strong defensively but he is still young & with limitations himself.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

He''s played that position several times already this season and has looked good there - the deepest midfielder in the diamond in no way has to be a big 6 foot plus player. Most of their work is just being in the right place at the right time, something I think Fox has a natural understanding of. He is a similar player to Carrick in many ways - who is a player who also sits deep and mops up any problems.

[/quote]

 

I''ve never said that you have to be a six foot plus brute to play in that position. But when comparing Fox and Carrick you have to take account of the fact that one plays for a team who averages 44.1% possesion of the ball and the other playes for a team who averages 56.3%. Put simply Fox has an awful lot more defending to do in most matches. I like Fox playing as a deep lying midfielder. His range of passing is better than anybody else in our squad and when we get him on the ball enough we look a much better side. But I''m not convinced he can cope with playing on his own at the base of the diamond and would prefer to see him as one of two in a 4-2-3-1 if selected.

[/quote]

 

Good stat work ;)

 

For me, Fox looks the most natural defensive midfielder in the squad - he doesn''t look to go beyond the half way line much and takes up good positions. He isn''t a tough tackler, but with the way the Premier League is going there tough tackling is a dying art form.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

An rank amateur willing to learn asks if one solution (at least for some games) is the following:

 

Three centre-backs, at least one of whom (Ayala, Russell Martin?) can get forward into midfield and even beyond.

 

Two wing-backs, with cover primarily coming from the outside centre-backs.

 

Two central midfield players, one of whom would be a passer (Fox presumably) and the other a workhorse (such as Johnson or Crofts).

 

Hoolahan at the apex of a kind of flat-based diamond.

 

Two strikers.

 

Or, as a variation, the centre-backs and the wingbacks the same, but then Fox at the base of the diamond, two central midfielders ahead of him, Hoolahan at the apex of the diamond, and one striker.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

Good stat work ;)

 

[/quote]

 

Cheeky f*cker. Any idiot with a computer can find find a stat these days. Which makes it even more incredible that so many posters on here still think Wes Hoolahan gives the ball away so much.

 

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

 

For me, Fox looks the most natural defensive midfielder in the squad - he doesn''t look to go beyond the half way line much and takes up good positions. He isn''t a tough tackler, but with the way the Premier League is going there tough tackling is a dying art form.

[/quote]

 

I agree but I remain to be convinced that he can do it on his own. You don''t need to be some hard man enforcer to play there (Busquets for instance is an excellent defensive midfielder despite being a complete pussy) but you do need ball winners somewhere in the midfield when you give the ball away as much as we do. Fox is tactically and positionally superior to both Johnson and Crofts so I''d always play him ahead of them but I do feel he needs a little help. It doesn''t necessarily need to be in the form of a tough tackler though. Maybe Howson could help Fox to control the midfield a little more?

 

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

An rank amateur willing to learn asks if one solution (at least for some games) is the following:

 

Three centre-backs, at least one of whom (Ayala, Russell Martin?) can get forward into midfield and even beyond.

 

Two wing-backs, with cover primarily coming from the outside centre-backs.

 

Two central midfield players, one of whom would be a passer (Fox presumably) and the other a workhorse (such as Johnson or Crofts).

 

Hoolahan at the apex of a kind of flat-based diamond.

 

Two strikers.

 

Or, as a variation, the centre-backs and the wingbacks the same, but then Fox at the base of the diamond, two central midfielders ahead of him, Hoolahan at the apex of the diamond, and one striker.

[/quote]

 

We''re all rank amateurs here Purple. I think three at the back could work but as you say there has to be one centre half who can step into midfield especially with so many teams playing one up front these days. It''s obviously something Lambert has thought of as we have tried it before on occassion but I''m not sure he would revert to it with any regularity. I tend to think you need an awful lot of pace and technique to play it with any success. Look at Napopli, for instance, and they have some very quick and skilfull players (Lavezzi in particular is integral to the way they play) who allow them to play that system on the counter attack. I do wonder if we would retain the same attacking threat if we played with three central defenders.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

Can you play Surman and Hoolihan in the same side?

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Fox

Crofts Surman

Hoolahan

Off the top of my head we did at scum last season?

Also same midfield at Wolves this season where we had spells of passing them off the park and spells where the midfield was over run.

[chicken 0]

Nothing wrong with any of our midfielders wingers included. What we struggle with at times is our formation.

[Mister Chops 7]

Crofts too often lets the game pass him by and runs from side to side without intercepting or winning the ball.  This is a problem, and I think he''s probably the weak link.  I''d like to see a centre mid pairing of Fox and Johnson, with Fox playing deep as the DM (effectively a sweeper but in midfield) & Johnson just ahead as the first line of defence.  This does suggest 1 up front, not 2, which is the tricky part.  Ideally, I''d play Fox, Johnson, Surman, Pilkington & Hoolahan with the first two on mop-up duty, Surman & Pilkington pulling wide and Wes supporting the lone striker, which would be Morison with Holt replacing after c. 60 mins.  But we seem pretty good with 2 up front.  It''s a massive dilemma.

[Boyo 0]

I don''t think we have a problem as such but there is definitely room for improvement.

 

I think what is holding us back is that we don''t have an all round midfielder.  All our midfielders are good at one thing but not the other.  For example, Fox is great technically but isn''t robust and Johnson is robust but isn''t good technically.  If we can find a technically good player who is also robust then this may solve our problems, however lots of clubs are looking for this player and he would cost a lot of money.

 

I actually think of the players we have now Korey Smith is our best all round midfielder.  I know he hasn''t played for us this season but I have no doubts he can make the grade but he will need to be given time.  If our central midfield pairing five years on from now is Korey Smith and Jonny Howson then that would be a perfect combination.