Anyone admitting Wes isn't upto it....

[Bryangunnshairline 0]

[quote user="Beauseant"]

[quote user="Bryangunnshairline"]I agree he should be used as an impact sub when we play another formation. But he is the main man pulling the strings in lamberts preferred formation. To say we have not played well of late as a diamond? Did u go Saturday??? (Can''t I say that!? Ha ha) Another player lately who''s at best in that formation is surman and he has been outstanding.[/quote]

 

If you''d like to translate that back into English I''ll try to answer your points[:D]

 

[/quote]

[GJP 79]

[quote user="bringbackandyhughes"]GJP, who the hell are you to say that people who don''t agree with your opinion have a lack of understanding of the game? You word is not gossip and it shows how blinkered and small minded you are that you have to resort to comments like that. Football is all about opinions and mine just happens to be that Pilks and Fox are more important to us than Wes currently. As I stated in my original message what Wes and the rest of the players have done in the last couple of years has been phenomenal. I believe he still a big part to play however I think he is best used as an impact sub. The more we prosper in this league and the longer the season goes on we lose the element of surprise and teams are closing Wes down more and more, forcing him on his right foot and exploiting the diamond formation. Sunderland was a prie example of this.[/quote]

Alright, alright, don''t get your knickers in a twist.

 

Football is also about learning. I like to take the view that whether you''re playing, coaching or spectating that you should still try to better your abilities or knowledge - which often means listening to someone who knows better than you.

 

People say "football is all about opinions" but some are more valid and worthwhile than others. If someone said to you that Lionel Messi was rubbish at football then I''m pretty sure you''d think that person was totally clueless.

 

Now, I''m not saying you necessarily have to listen to me but I just really think you should take a moment and think to yourself  "Hang on a minute, Paul Lambert, a brilliant manager, is picking Wes Hoolahan for the vast majority of games we play, just as he has done since he''s been incharge. Perhaps there''s a reason for that, perhaps he knows a bit better than I and Wes brings more to the table than I''ve given him credit for".

 

Oh, and if Howson comes in and Wes ends up playing second fiddle to him then I will be hold my hands up and say I got it wrong.

 

 

[bringbackandyhughes 0]

Your arrogance astounds me, unfortunately your intelligence does not.

So people should listen to people who have greater knowledge? well I''m afraid in that case your argument is flawed as Giovanni Trapattoni, who has achieved far more the Lambert, does not rate Hoolahan and as a result does not pick him for Ireland, perhaps you should bow to his greater knowledge as I''m sure even PL would admit that Trap has a greater knowledge as a manager given the career he has had.

You also don''t know (and nor do I) whether in fact if Lambert had not picked Hoolahan so often we might have gained even more points than we have achieved and neither of us will ever be able to prove this either way hence why it is all down to opinions. As i have stated all along my personal opinion is that Wes, despite being a fantastic player for us in our reincarnation as a proud football club over the last few years, would best serve us as an impact sub going forward.

Please also realise this not to say I don''t rate Wes as I do and some of the skills he has are only matched by the very best players in the premier league however he does also have weak points and limitations.

[CDMullins 436]

[quote user="GJP"]

[quote user="bringbackandyhughes"]GJP, who the hell are you to say that people who don''t agree with your opinion have a lack of understanding of the game? You word is not gossip and it shows how blinkered and small minded you are that you have to resort to comments like that. Football is all about opinions and mine just happens to be that Pilks and Fox are more important to us than Wes currently. As I stated in my original message what Wes and the rest of the players have done in the last couple of years has been phenomenal. I believe he still a big part to play however I think he is best used as an impact sub. The more we prosper in this league and the longer the season goes on we lose the element of surprise and teams are closing Wes down more and more, forcing him on his right foot and exploiting the diamond formation. Sunderland was a prie example of this.[/quote]

Alright, alright, don''t get your knickers in a twist.

 

Football is also about learning. I like to take the view that whether you''re playing, coaching or spectating that you should still try to better your abilities or knowledge - which often means listening to someone who knows better than you.

 

People say "football is all about opinions" but some are more valid and worthwhile than others. If someone said to you that Lionel Messi was rubbish at football then I''m pretty sure you''d think that person was totally clueless.

 

Now, I''m not saying you necessarily have to listen to me but I just really think you should take a moment and think to yourself  "Hang on a minute, Paul Lambert, a brilliant manager, is picking Wes Hoolahan for the vast majority of games we play, just as he has done since he''s been incharge. Perhaps there''s a reason for that, perhaps he knows a bit better than I and Wes brings more to the table than I''ve given him credit for".

 

Oh, and if Howson comes in and Wes ends up playing second fiddle to him then I will be hold my hands up and say I got it wrong.

 

 

[/quote]

 

So whats your excuse for Trappatoni not picking him? And instead selecting  Keith Andrews, Keith Fahy, Stephen Hunt?

 

If he was as good as this board made out, why when we were relegated to L1 didnt any Championship side want him, Why when he was ''that good'' in League One didnt any Championship side want him, Why when he was ''that good'' in the Championship didnt any Premier League side want him and now he is ''that good'' in the Premier League, cant he still even make the squad for ROI.

 

Paul Lambert didnt buy Wes, he was here when he came. He has had a limited budget, now we have a little cash I feel Wes will be replaced.

 

Lambert as got the best out of him, but for every piece of magic he produces, there are lots of bad play, IMO.

 

Its a shame, cause football brian wise he is very clever, infact at times too clever, but he hasnt been blessed with the physical attributes needed to be a outstanding Premier League player.

 

I always said, if he didnt play for City, who would he play for, I certainally dont think it would be a Premier League side, maybe someone like Middlesborough, Coventry or Leeds.

 

[johnnygavinscoresagain 0]

[quote user="CDMullins"]

So whats your excuse for Trappatoni not picking him? And instead selecting  Keith Andrews, Keith Fahy, Stephen Hunt?

If he was as good as this board made out, why when we were relegated to L1 didnt any Championship side want him, Why when he was ''that good'' in League One didnt any Championship side want him, Why when he was ''that good'' in the Championship didnt any Premier League side want him and now he is ''that good'' in the Premier League, cant he still even make the squad for ROI.

Paul Lambert didnt buy Wes, he was here when he came. He has had a limited budget, now we have a little cash I feel Wes will be replaced.

Lambert as got the best out of him, but for every piece of magic he produces, there are lots of bad play, IMO.

Its a shame, cause football brian wise he is very clever, infact at times too clever, but he hasnt been blessed with the physical attributes needed to be a outstanding Premier League player.

I always said, if he didnt play for City, who would he play for, I certainally dont think it would be a Premier League side, maybe someone like Middlesborough, Coventry or Leeds.

[/quote]

Quite simply, Trappatoni has a system and Wes doesn''t fit in it. No shame in that. Football is all about opinions, even at managerial level [:P]

[CDMullins 436]

[quote user="johnnygavinscoresagain"][quote user="CDMullins"]

So whats your excuse for Trappatoni not picking him? And instead selecting  Keith Andrews, Keith Fahy, Stephen Hunt?

If he was as good as this board made out, why when we were relegated to L1 didnt any Championship side want him, Why when he was ''that good'' in League One didnt any Championship side want him, Why when he was ''that good'' in the Championship didnt any Premier League side want him and now he is ''that good'' in the Premier League, cant he still even make the squad for ROI.

Paul Lambert didnt buy Wes, he was here when he came. He has had a limited budget, now we have a little cash I feel Wes will be replaced.

Lambert as got the best out of him, but for every piece of magic he produces, there are lots of bad play, IMO.

Its a shame, cause football brian wise he is very clever, infact at times too clever, but he hasnt been blessed with the physical attributes needed to be a outstanding Premier League player.

I always said, if he didnt play for City, who would he play for, I certainally dont think it would be a Premier League side, maybe someone like Middlesborough, Coventry or Leeds.

[/quote]

Quite simply, Trappatoni has a system and Wes doesn''t fit in it. No shame in that. Football is all about opinions, even at managerial level [:P]

[/quote]

 

And the previous ROI managers?

 

Surley Wes is that good that they should fit a system around him?

[Herman 9,692]

Maybe they should have thought about it.They might have qualified for things a bit more often[;)]

[johnnygavinscoresagain 0]

[quote user="CDMullins"]

And the previous ROI managers?

Surley Wes is that good that they should fit a system around him?

[/quote]

Who, Steve Staunton?! Call me gaffer...

Yup, very good [:D]

I saw young Wessi in 2004 in the Champions League qualifiers for Shelbourne against a very tidy Deportivo La Coruna side at Landsdowne Road. He played against Valeron, Duscher and Sergio that night. IMO Wes was easily the best midfielder on view mate.

[Itsaboutskillnotsize 0]

I have read this debate with great interest and I agree football is all about opinions.Wessi is simply our best player (in my opinion) and certainly our most creative.

But like I said football is all about opinions..me personally I love to see football played the ''right'' way ie; pass, pass and when you can shoot pass again. I appreciate not all people agree with this and I''m sure Brendan Rogers coaching sessions are different to Tony Pulis'' but they are both having success with different methods. But CD Mullins to claim Wessi isn''t blessed with the physical attributes to be an outstanding Premiership player is frankly stupid and I would like to know whether you think David Silva will ever make it?

[Tim Dawson 0]

Spot on !!!!

[CDMullins 436]

[quote user="Itsaboutskillnotsize"]I have read this debate with great interest and I agree football is all about opinions.Wessi is simply our best player (in my opinion) and certainly our most creative. But like I said football is all about opinions..me personally I love to see football played the ''right'' way ie; pass, pass and when you can shoot pass again. I appreciate not all people agree with this and I''m sure Brendan Rogers coaching sessions are different to Tony Pulis'' but they are both having success with different methods. But CD Mullins to claim Wessi isn''t blessed with the physical attributes to be an outstanding Premiership player is frankly stupid and I would like to know whether you think David Silva will ever make it?[/quote]

 

Silva is quicker with the ball and for his size, strong as an Ox.

 

Oh why Oh why, did Man City spend £30 Mill on Silva when they could have had Wes for much less than that.

 

If you really are comparing Wes to Silva, and such comments like ''we only play well when Wes does'' then why isnt he this world known star?

[Itsaboutskillnotsize 0]

Of course Silva is many times the player Wessi is, but his physical attributes are not dissimilar. Leon Britton is another, it''s ludicrous when people mention Wes'' size...he''s hard to knock off the ball, works his nuts off and is our most creative force and yes we do play better when Wes does.But if people prefer to watch 6'' workhorses thats their call..just that I like to watch Wessi cos he''s gifted and we should be grateful we''ve got him.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="bringbackandyhughes"]Your arrogance astounds me, unfortunately your intelligence does not.

 

So people should listen to people who have greater knowledge? well I''m afraid in that case your argument is flawed as Giovanni Trapattoni, who has achieved far more the Lambert, does not rate Hoolahan and as a result does not pick him for Ireland, perhaps you should bow to his greater knowledge as I''m sure even PL would admit that Trap has a greater knowledge as a manager given the career he has had. You also don''t know (and nor do I) whether in fact if Lambert had not picked Hoolahan so often we might have gained even more points than we have achieved and neither of us will ever be able to prove this either way hence why it is all down to opinions. As i have stated all along my personal opinion is that Wes, despite being a fantastic player for us in our reincarnation as a proud football club over the last few years, would best serve us as an impact sub going forward. Please also realise this not to say I don''t rate Wes as I do and some of the skills he has are only matched by the very best players in the premier league however he does also have weak points and limitations.[/quote]

My arrogance? I''m not the one who seems to think they know better than Paul Lambert.

 

As for intelligence...well I gave you the chance to save yourself, have a think about what you were saying but you chose not to take it. Says more about your intelligence than mine.

 

Five transfer windows have come and gone since Lambert arrived and yet Wes has remained a regular fixture in the team. Again, should tell it''s own story.

 

But yes, this is all getting a bit silly now, a bit unnecessary. And I do appreciate you''re not totally writing Wes off as a player. So I guess the sensible thing to do would be to wait and see what actually happens in the future. As I mentioned before, if Howson comes in and puts Wes out of the team I will do the decent thing and say I got it wrong.

[Bill Car 0]

Before the season started I thought Rudy was too inconsistent along with Wes, Whitbread was to slow and Surman to lightweight for the diamond. I’m glad I don’t pick the team.

I think it shows how good a manager we have that after the Sunderland game he went with the most creative team we could put out after previously being outmuscled in the Sunderland game.

Sunderland is at present the form team of the premiership. When he managed Celtic he would often employ Sutton in a role which would cut out the out ball to the defensive midfielder, effectively stopping them tick. With the absence of Fox and Johnson having such a poor game our only out ball (Wes) was easy to nullify, which in turn, stopped us performing. This isn’t a reflection on Wes, just a manager who has got his tactics spot on.

I really thought we were lacking width in the Sunderland game but it just shows you how good Lambert is, a change of personnel that improved our possession and long story short didn’t drop Wes but made sure our ball retention improved in other areas giving Wes more space to impact the game was telling.

[Chrisr 0]

Got to say I sometimes wonder if I go to the same games as other people. Now, I am no tactical genuis but having watched Norwich since the early 80''s there are a few players I can recall that I couldn''t wait to see every week because of the way they played football. Fox, Crook, Bellamy, Eadie, Coney, Huckerby and in this team, Wes.*I my humble the reason he is percieved to give the ball away too often (Saturday''s pass completion rate withstanding) is that the game flows through him. We look to him to do something with the ball and he is one of the few players able to create an opening from nothing, yes he gives it away but that''s because he has the damn thing more than the rest of them.* one of these isn''t true.

[The Gruffalo 0]

Well yes Wes did improve on his Weds night no show at Sunderland against Bolton, but for me Fox, Surman and Pilkington were all better than him on Saturday.  That still makes Wes the worst player in our midfield last weekend for me.Still some you can criticise and some you can''t I suppose?

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="The Gruffalo"]Well yes Wes did improve on his Weds night no show at Sunderland against Bolton, but for me Fox, Surman and Pilkington were all better than him on Saturday.  That still makes Wes the worst player in our midfield last weekend for me.

Still some you can criticise and some you can''t I suppose?
[/quote]

I have never understood this apparent obsession with "player A is better than player B". All players have their individual strengths and weaknesses. It is a team game and all those named contributed significantly to yet another victory. Frequently, players have to adjust their own game in favour of what is best for the team.

[Robert N. LiM 4,218]

Great post from Chrisr. You really do have to worry about people who, rather than admiring and enjoying the guile and artistry that Wes shows off pretty much every time he plays, fixate on his negative points and take point-scoring pleasure when he has a bad game.

For me he''s the best footballer (this doesn''t quite mean the same thing as best player) we''ve had at the club since Ian Crook, and it''s a pleasure to watch him.

Does that mean he didn''t have a bad game against Sunderland? No. But claiming ''he''s not up to it'' misses the point spectacularly. If you don''t enjoy watching Wes, why exactly do you watch football?

[lake district canary 0]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]

You really do have to worry about people who, rather than admiring and enjoying the guile and artistry that Wes shows off pretty much every time he plays, fixate on his negative points and take point-scoring pleasure when he has a bad game.

[/quote]

 

Unfortunately there are alot of people who live their lives dwelling on negative points, hence they do the same when they watch football.  It is good the club and many supporters are positive to counteract the ''negs''.  Perhaps if more people show their positivity, it will influence the negative types to realise there is a better way to look at things!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Robert N. LiM"]

You really do have to worry about people who, rather than admiring and enjoying the guile and artistry that Wes shows off pretty much every time he plays, fixate on his negative points and take point-scoring pleasure when he has a bad game.

[/quote]

 

Unfortunately there are alot of people who live their lives dwelling on negative points, hence they do the same when they watch football.  It is good the club and many supporters are positive to counteract the ''negs''.  Perhaps if more people show their positivity, it will influence the negative types to realise there is a better way to look at things!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

If only! I don''t wish to sound negative but ........

[Bryangunnshairline 0]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]

Great post from Chrisr. You really do have to worry about people who, rather than admiring and enjoying the guile and artistry that Wes shows off pretty much every time he plays, fixate on his negative points and take point-scoring pleasure when he has a bad game.

For me he''s the best footballer (this doesn''t quite mean the same thing as best player) we''ve had at the club since Ian Crook, and it''s a pleasure to watch him.

Does that mean he didn''t have a bad game against Sunderland? No. But claiming ''he''s not up to it'' misses the point spectacularly. If you don''t enjoy watching Wes, why exactly do you watch football?

[/quote] I could not have put it better myself. Great post Robert n lim

[Bryangunnshairline 0]

http://www.pinkun.com:80/norwich-city/paul_lambert_wes_hoolahan_worth_a_look_from_republic_of_ireland_boss_giovanni_trapattoni_1_1204811

[Robert N. LiM 4,218]

I agree with this:

"He has been brilliant; he has played some massive games. I think Wes, being as creative as he is, sometimes will have his ups and downs in games. You make allowances for that – but over the course of two-and-a-half years he has been terrific."

[Yobocop 1,094]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]I agree with this: "He has been brilliant; he has played some massive games. I think Wes, being as creative as he is, sometimes will have his ups and downs in games. You make allowances for that – but over the course of two-and-a-half years he has been terrific."[/quote]

yeah I second this, every player will go missing in a game, it just so happens in the position that Wes plays which is the key link from midfield to forward, it is not as easy to hide a poor performance. But as you say Hoolahan is a key player for us and has largely gone under the radar this season.

 

Perhaps the difference between Worthington and Lambert is that Worthy would''ve used Hoolahan every match, whereas Lambert knows when is best to use him and when is not....

[smooth 114]

I think all those that have commented in a ''negative'' manner have done so by agreeing that he has been instruemental as part of the team that has taken us up. But I agree, and did say, if he was that good then other clubs would have come a sniffing and there hasn''t been a squeak of any club looking at him

 

The ''negative'' comments are outlining that with his position in the squad there is room for improvement, as all the players can do. We should be continually looking to improve the team and individuals. Wes is a creative player, but as the consesus on here has shown ''he can have his ups and downs'' hence you look at which players can come in, or if they are young enough develop them, to improve their total game. No question Howson can develop and take Hoolahoops place, in time. But also add competition that can mean in some games he can play ahead of wes.

 

I have said it, I think we have to accomodate Wes. He is playing incredibly well and now we can afford to be hyper critical because we want to stay in the top division and hold our own. Wes is predominantly left footed, he has improved his overall midfield game, but at the level were we are you have to look to always improve and the more games that a player can be on ''the ups'' the better. I prefer a 4-4-2 and more traditional players, but for me he would be an ideal impact player in every game. That is not to say if we do not acquire better players that he shouldn''t start but he is a little unique. Pilkington has been creative, added assists and scored goals, hence for me he has held his place in the team for the season. Hence in a 4-4-2 a less pacey wide midfielder has been successful, many have argued that Wes can''t play that position. I still think the WBA game at home he showed he can play that position.

 

If we were in the championship he would be a very good player, stand out in some games. In the premiership I do not think he is irreplacable in our team and again that shows the quality we have in the team and what I believe we will do in the summer. We have a great player in wes where there are only 20 teams in this top division with 4 starting midfielders each, hence he is in the top 80 in this country many whom are world class. He is up against genuine class, as the whole team are and they are holding there own. There is room for improvement and a creative player is always on show in this division about bringing it to the game. So hence a critical eye is always going to be upon Wes and inevitably Howson and players in there creative moulds.