Anyone admitting Wes isn't upto it....

[CDMullins 436]

yet?

No didn''t think so!

[Levi Stubbs 0]

Yep I''ll join yer in one of those...

[Nuff Said 5,135]

I''m not going to pretend to know enough about football to understand why, but it seems strange to me that he was more successful in the supposedly physical Championship but seems to struggle in the Prem which apparently is becoming non-contact.

[kick it off 1,952]

I''ve never been his biggest fan, but I''m increasinlgy getting more steadfast in my view he is just too bloody lightweight. The amount of pressure he caused us to come under tonight and repeatedly in last few months because he gives the ball away needlessly is unreal.

Liability.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Well not tonight obviously. But we didn''t have a lot of alternative. The diamond wasn''t up to it tonight would perhaps be a better criticism.

 

 

[Yellow Shirt 17]

Well I got shot down every other time I''ve said he wouldn''t be in my team and that hasn''t changed my mind- tonight certainly hasn''t!

[ricardo 7,385]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well not tonight obviously. But we didn''t have a lot of alternative. The diamond wasn''t up to it tonight would perhaps be a better criticism.

 

 

[/quote]He was roughed up like a schoolboy tonight. The pitch was none too good and all of our midfielders seemed to dwell on the ball too long.. Chances to get crosses in were few and far between but we buggered about too many times and the ball finished up going backwards.PL will come up with an answer on Saturday.

[Shack Attack 0]

Problem is the OP was telling us he wasn''t up to it in League One and Championship level either which was blatantly wrong. He was poor tonight but so were three quarters of the team. Are they not up to it either?

[YellowBlood 0]

It seems to me that whenever we lose a game, Wes becomes the scapegoat. It''s the back four you should be criticising the most. They were the ones at fault for the goals.

[ron obvious 1,502]

Sunderland did seem to have him in their collective pocket. Second guessed his tricks all the time &/or muscled him off the ball. But I''ve thought that before, & then he ups his game again ...

[CDMullins 436]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]Problem is the OP was telling us he wasn''t up to it in League One and Championship level either which was blatantly wrong. He was poor tonight but so were three quarters of the team. Are they not up to it either?[/quote]

No I never, I always said that he wasn''t as good as this board made him out to be!

Not that he wasn''t good enough to play in our side at L1 and Championship Level.

He as been fortunate to play in a good side where things have gone right, now he isn''t, he is no where to be seen.

[Gingerpele 0]

Everyone had a bad game today. Don''t think its fair to pick on individuals.

Hoolahan isn''t as effective as he was at lower levels, but we couldn''t have expected him to be. When him, Surman and Fox are playing well in the diamond, he is still a great player to have, still very creative and probably still the best footballer we have. But the team has to be right, now more than ever to get the best from him, which potentially leaves the back four even more exposed than normal.

[GJP 79]

We''re 11th in the Premier League. No other midfielder has played in more league games for us this season.

 

How could we possibly have done this well if we''re regularly playing a guy in midfield who isn''t up to it?

 

You often see Johnson, Crofts and Morison all muscled off the ball easily. Infact it happened several times tonight. So to criticise Wes for it would seem a little unfair, if you''re not going to criticise the others for it. But I guess that''s the way football fans are when they''ve got it in for a player, they don''t treat them fairly or equally, they look for any chance to attack them.

[CDMullins 436]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]Everyone had a bad game today. Don''t think its fair to pick on individuals.

Hoolahan isn''t as effective as he was at lower levels, but we couldn''t have expected him to be. When him, Surman and Fox are playing well in the diamond, he is still a great player to have, still very creative and probably still the best footballer we have. But the team has to be right, now more than ever to get the best from him, which potentially leaves the back four even more exposed than normal.[/quote]

Your opinion is null and void

[Yellow Shirt 17]

[quote user="CityLegends04"]It seems to me that whenever we lose a game, Wes becomes the scapegoat. It''s the back four you should be criticising the most. They were the ones at fault for the goals.[/quote]Don''t agree with that myself- Naughton had a role in the 2nd but not so did Johnson.The back 4 were left exposed and outnumbered by the midfield.Wes and Johnson gave the ball away a lot. My feeling is that Wes does that a lot and that was my feeling before this season let alone tonight.He is a good player- but I think we would be a stronger team with a different player in his role. I''d like to see Pilks tried there and Howson when he is fit, I believe that is why Howson has been brought in.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="CDMullins"][quote user="Shack Attack"]Problem is the OP was telling us he wasn''t up to it in League One and Championship level either which was blatantly wrong. He was poor tonight but so were three quarters of the team. Are they not up to it either?[/quote]

No I never, I always said that he wasn''t as good as this board made him out to be!

Not that he wasn''t good enough to play in our side at L1 and Championship Level.

He as been fortunate to play in a good side where things have gone right, now he isn''t, he is no where to be seen.[/quote]OK let''s just say you have ''an issue'' with him. I wouldn''t have picked him tonight anyway. A bog of a pitch against a team whose manager always likes to play with plenty of width. Not the best time to play the diamond.

[lake district canary 0]

Wes was crowded out every time he got the ball and got frustrated.   Good play by Sunderland.

 

The whole team suffered from a performance of excellence from Sunderland.

 

Credit where credit is due - beaten by the better team. That''s sport.  On Saturday hopefully we''ll be the better team.

 

 

 

[WW 0]

Can we have him?

[ron obvious 1,502]

Actually, I think what happened could be best described as "out-Norwiched"!

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Of course that is how you consolidate in the Premier League. You go in with many of the players who got you there. And in our case many players from two leagues below. Then hopefully, by staying there you have the finances to improve year in, year out. But that doesn''t devalue any players who got you there and Paul Lambert obviously felt Wes was good enough to contribute this season. I did too.

[WW 0]

You''re idiots to be judging such a quality player btw.

Someone has already said, you''re 11th and he''s played the most games in your squad.

God knows where you think you should be and who should be playing for you in your first season back.

[CDMullins 436]

The thing that uneducated football fans cant see is..

Wes gives the ball away a hell of a lot regardless of what division he''s been in.

In League one, he got away with it a lot of the time, as the oppositions attack was poor,

In the Championship he got away with it a little bit less,

Now we are in the Prem he is getting away with it a lot less!

Wes is a luxury player, fantastic when we are cruising, liability when in a struggle.

[Cappsy 0]

thread is nonsense. better team won, we will get a response. onto saturday

[CDMullins 436]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="CDMullins"][quote user="Shack Attack"]Problem is the OP was telling us he wasn''t up to it in League One and Championship level either which was blatantly wrong. He was poor tonight but so were three quarters of the team. Are they not up to it either?[/quote]

No I never, I always said that he wasn''t as good as this board made him out to be!

Not that he wasn''t good enough to play in our side at L1 and Championship Level.

He as been fortunate to play in a good side where things have gone right, now he isn''t, he is no where to be seen.[/quote]OK let''s just say you have ''an issue'' with him. I wouldn''t have picked him tonight anyway. A bog of a pitch against a team whose manager always likes to play with plenty of width. Not the best time to play the diamond.[/quote]

So he''s only good when the weather is nice?

[Yellow Shirt 17]

[quote user="lake district canary"]

Wes was crowded out every time he got the ball and got frustrated.   Good play by Sunderland.

 

The whole team suffered from a performance of excellence from Sunderland.

 

Credit where credit is due - beaten by the better team. That''s sport.  On Saturday hopefully we''ll be the better team.

 

 

 

[/quote]This is 100% right... my concern is and has been for a long time that playing Wes leaves us open to this. I think we are stronger with a different player there. With more pace or strength he might be able to counteract this simple tactic but his skill alone isn''t enough in this league.

[smooth 114]

Tonight was not a good performance there is no getting away from that.

 

Previous games with the diamond have shown that with Hoolahan further up the field our midfield three are stretched, Surman and Crofts are not good enough to hold that midfield three with Johnson. They are solid but you need to be exceptional to do it. I have said I prefer the 4-4-2 formation, even when we were winning with the 4-5-1, at that point Hoolahan was too deep but that was with one striker.

 

He has only scored two goals and altho he has put in the odd cross that we have scored from he has not been creative enough in the final third. Yes Sunderland played him well today and had a field day in the gaping holes in our midfield. They have been there all season it is just no team has punished us to the extent a no name sunderland did tonight.

 

It is a warning shot as other premiership teams will pick up this tape and look at how to stop us playing. Yes we had the odd chance to get a shot on target but we struggled across the pitch. No question that before the game the stats all led to us putting crosses in and for the two strong forwards that would seem obvious. But we decided against width again.

 

I prefer a 4-4-2 with genuine wingers, pace, outlet ball and ability to put quality in the box. Pilkington and Bennett have a case to be heard, certainly now as other premiership clubs will take note.

 

Wes for me has always been quandry, still think his best game for us this season was wba at home when he moved to left midfield and ran at the wba defence. He doesn''t have an ideal role, he is one footed. But he can be creative and has ability. But for me he is not a player that is guaranteed a place and actually I don''t think he is seen by many premiership teams as a key player and in fact I don''t think he is for us. An impact player from the bench maybe, but we need more rounded players at this stage.

 

Yes harsh criticism but I have noted it many times, tonights game certainly exposed us to some weaknesses and a nubmer of individual have come off pretty badly. Nobody particularly had a great game and was tested throughout, but I would say that Hoolahan and Andrew Crofts stood out tonight. Crofts certainly looked out of his depth this evening, a great player to bring on to run out the clock in the final five minutes, but at this level he is no more than that.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="CDMullins"]The thing that uneducated football fans cant see is.. Wes gives the ball away a hell of a lot regardless of what division he''s been in. In League one, he got away with it a lot of the time, as the oppositions attack was poor, In the Championship he got away with it a little bit less, Now we are in the Prem he is getting away with it a lot less! Wes is a luxury player, fantastic when we are cruising, liability when in a struggle.[/quote]

Let me educate you a bit because it would seem you''re the uneducated one:

 

Wes has the highest pass completion rate* in the squad and only David Fox has played more passes.

 

No other midfielder averages more tackles in a game than Wes.

 

He also has the equal highest number of assists.

 

 

He''s far from a luxury player and any truly "educated" football fan would know that.

 

 

 

*Apart from Lappin and Ayala but their small number of appearances makes it a bit different for them.

[CDMullins 436]

[quote user="GJP"]

[quote user="CDMullins"]The thing that uneducated football fans cant see is.. Wes gives the ball away a hell of a lot regardless of what division he''s been in. In League one, he got away with it a lot of the time, as the oppositions attack was poor, In the Championship he got away with it a little bit less, Now we are in the Prem he is getting away with it a lot less! Wes is a luxury player, fantastic when we are cruising, liability when in a struggle.[/quote]

Let me educate you a bit because it would seem you''re the uneducated one:

 

Wes has the highest pass completion rate* in the squad and only David Fox has played more passes.

 

No other midfielder averages more tackles in a game than Wes.

 

He also has the equal highest number of assists.

 

 

He''s far from a luxury player and any truly "educated" football fan would know that.

 

 

 

*Apart from Lappin and Ayala but their small number of appearances makes it a bit different for them.

[/quote]

Id love to know his % of keeping the ball and giving it away!

If he really is our top tackler, we have a big problem.

Pick every teams most ''creative'' player and see if you would swap them for Wes, I guarantee, I would.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="CDMullins"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="CDMullins"][quote user="Shack Attack"]Problem is the OP was telling us he wasn''t up to it in League One and Championship level either which was blatantly wrong. He was poor tonight but so were three quarters of the team. Are they not up to it either?[/quote]

No I never, I always said that he wasn''t as good as this board made him out to be!

Not that he wasn''t good enough to play in our side at L1 and Championship Level.

He as been fortunate to play in a good side where things have gone right, now he isn''t, he is no where to be seen.[/quote]OK let''s just say you have ''an issue'' with him. I wouldn''t have picked him tonight anyway. A bog of a pitch against a team whose manager always likes to play with plenty of width. Not the best time to play the diamond.[/quote]

So he''s only good when the weather is nice?[/quote]That''s not what I said is it. Paul Lambert regularly changes formations and personnel to suit the particular circumstances of individual matches. The opposition and playing surface tonight did not appear to suit either Wes or the diamond midfield in which he has excelled under Paul Lambert. As an educated football fan I would have thought you might understand that?Oh and you just took a real shoeing a couple of posts back from one of those ''uneducated football fans'' [:D]

[smooth 114]

GJP the highest amounts of assists stat surprise me actually.

 

No question of the mans ability and what he has done in the leagues below, in a very unorthodox way because of how the team has to play to accomodate Wes. I would love it if he could play more out wide, take his marker out to the left, but through the middle for me he is coming up against some of the better midfielders in Europe. Clearly the stat in regard in assists would suggest at times he is beating them. But I believe he isn''t and certainly he has not been a threat with 2 goals only this season. Now for a player who is creating chances and not scoring enough shows where his game is going wrong. His goal ratio was always strong when you included penalties, still scored a few but that help tick it along.

 

Wes being a little more direct, taking a shot on would be great. I have said it, last season when Lansbury played that role near the end of games he was a better player. For me Pacheco and Lansbury were better players, and yes they are not here, but in my eyes they had move ability, more drive and better execution. Wes is a very good player and has proved it at NCFC, he is not untouchable and is not the player that shines out of our team that woudl mean a more established prem. club would come enquiring.

 

Howson, EB (who played in that role for Brighton) and Pilky can all say is that spot up for grabs if we wish to play the diamond. In some games, like tonight it just doesn''t come off and Wes was never in this game at all.

 

But as mentioned he was not alone. Quite happy to move on to the Bolton game, as I am sure many players are, and bring in a few changes like reverting to a 4-4-2 with Pilky and EB out wide.