SMITH & JONES - THE 15-YEAR VERDICT

[Bury Yellow 2]

Quite correct Tangie although I appreciate you don''t need my confirmation.

Mr Bowkett the modest King of the most dramatic turn round in the clubs history. Fact!

[BroadstairsR 2,162]

The last time I reviewed the situation NCFC were a big club in the context of the professional game in this country as a whole. Situated in a fine city and environs with a reasonably large population.  An excellent ground and training facilities can be added to this, as can an enviable support.

 

As a major source of enjoyment to the people of Norfolk and others, they are a massive institution and major employer. They have attracted a series of benefactors when needed. They have enjoyed notable successes in the past and, as such, have raised the profile of the City both nationally and, on occasions, internationally. 

 

They now lie in the top half of one of the best leagues in the World and play to full houses on a regular basis. Boards like this are based upon our successes or otherwise.

 

Luck? I do  not think so. What more do you expect Mr. Cluck?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Bury Yellow"]Quite correct Tangie although I appreciate you don''t need my confirmation. Mr Bowkett the modest King of the most dramatic turn round in the clubs history. Fact![/quote]

I love Facts![Y]

 

Anyone know this one....

 

Who appointed McNally and THEN persuaded Bowkett to come on board[:^)]

 

 

[Tony Moore 0]

Well said PurpleCanary.

A well thought-out inciseful piece of work. It''s such a shame that this message board is not graced with more insights such as this. Unfortunately what we seem to have is a pretty infantile collection of individuals who appear to delight in making most posts degenerate into pathetic name-calling,insult trading, and generally disrepectful behaviour.

By way of evidence you only have to look at Paul Cluckbert''s intial response, followed by the inevitable point-scoring that spoils so much of this board.

Anyhow despite all of that I really do appreciate the good work of people such as you PurpleCanary. Keep it up!!

OTBC

[First Wizard 0]

Smith got lucky getting PL here, its deflected the pass cock ups and mistakes she''s made..

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,414]

Bloody hell Wiz, as someone else would say. Dear, oh dear!

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="First Wizard"]pass cock ups and mistakes[/quote]Why oh why does Mark Fotheringham have to get dragged into every thread?

[Jack Flash 13]

Now in my 51st year watching Norwich and what a ball I''m having. For those who can''t find it in them to congratulate S & J , I feel sorry. Why not enjoy the fact that we have a Club with minimal debt, sensible pay structure, a very good average age, and we are actually 9th in the PL. Luck. No way. As is an oft repeated saying, "You make your own luck".

[Mister Chops 7]

Well, I see it like this.  Margaret Thatcher was deeply unpopular with/unappreciated by* the electorate following years of decline/decline* and leading a divided/weak and indecisive* cabinet, so she manufactured/lead our boys into* the Falklands Conflict in order to boost her popularity/defend our sovereign territory* and gain re-election - with the result that she went on to lead for several more glorious/intolerable* years.While Delia Smith is not and will never be Margaret Thatcher, she was deeply unpopular with/unappreciated by* the City faithful following years of decline/decline* and leading a

divided/weak and indecisive* board of directors, so she manufactured a drop into/lead Gunny''s cronies into* League One then sacked his sorry ass and hired a football genius backed by a board of astute businessmen and a Chief Exec with credibility and courage in order to boost her

popularity/defend our sovereign club* and gain the love of her people - with

the result that she went on to lead for several more

glorious/intolerable* years.

Gawd bless you, ma''am!

* Delete as appropriate to your tastes and leaningsPS: Nigel, who''s that bit of totty in your avatar?  I''d tap it. PHwoooarrrrrr!!!!!!!!!  [:P] [:P] [:P]

[Buncey 1]

I should say, a good post as always Purple. I always look out for your contributions.I must add:Prudence - Signing experienced, but over-paid, veterans. Ambition - Signing hungry talented young players, who I am positive, are paid a fraction of the "premierleague veterans".In this case, prudence cost us far more than ambition.

[. 0]

I''m afraid the stardust refuses to settle and the saviour myth continues to cloud the vision of the lost lambs....What particular part of  ''incredibly lucky'' don''t some of you understand? City were on a downward spiral over a 13 year period, slowly sliding toward oblivion and yet still so many clung tightly to the fantasy that ''she'' somehow was saving our club.Looking at it realistically, the good ship Delia was sinking fast and all she could do was flap around in the water praying for a lifeboat. Then....at the last moment a lifeboat appears on the horizon... it''s crew being Captain McNally and his First Mate Bowkett.... the lifebelt being thrown being Paul Lambert. The crew seeing the sinking ship move closer and climb on board to steady the ship, fixing the holes and putting someone who knows what they are doing on the tiller.So was it luck that the lifeboat saved her skin? Or was it Smith''s skill that she sunk the good ship Canary so close to help?Smith didn''t have a clue.... and should she once again be left to her own devices .... she still wouldn''t.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert"]So was it luck that the lifeboat saved her skin? Or was it Smith''s skill that she sunk the good ship Canary so close to help?[/quote]Who hired McNally?Who hired Bowkett?

[. 0]

[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Paul Cluckbert"]So was it luck that the lifeboat saved her skin? Or was it Smith''s skill that she sunk the good ship Canary so close to help?[/quote]Who hired McNally?Who hired Bowkett?[/quote]Hired?They were little more than administrators coming in to wrap up the mess Smith had created... and but for Paul Lambert, an unholy mess we would still have been.So no... don''t even try to give the cook credit for ''saving'' the club yet again. It was pure good fortune.... similar to when she was cynically shoe horned into the club at the expense of the great Robert Chase.

[First Wizard 0]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert"]I''m afraid the stardust refuses to settle and the saviour myth continues to cloud the vision of the lost lambs....

What particular part of  ''incredibly lucky'' don''t some of you understand? City were on a downward spiral over a 13 year period, slowly sliding toward oblivion and yet still so many clung tightly to the fantasy that ''she'' somehow was saving our club.

Looking at it realistically, the good ship Delia was sinking fast and all she could do was flap around in the water praying for a lifeboat. Then....at the last moment a lifeboat appears on the horizon... it''s crew being Captain McNally and his First Mate Bowkett.... the lifebelt being thrown being Paul Lambert. The crew seeing the sinking ship move closer and climb on board to steady the ship, fixing the holes and putting someone who knows what they are doing on the tiller.

So was it luck that the lifeboat saved her skin? Or was it Smith''s skill that she sunk the good ship Canary so close to help?

Smith didn''t have a clue.... and should she once again be left to her own devices .... she still wouldn''t.


[/quote]

 

Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah! [IMG]http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Respect/respect-061.gif[/IMG]

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert"][quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Paul Cluckbert"]So was it luck that the lifeboat saved her skin? Or was it Smith''s skill that she sunk the good ship Canary so close to help?[/quote]Who hired McNally?Who hired Bowkett?[/quote]Hired?They were little more than administrators coming in to wrap up the mess Smith had created... and but for Paul Lambert, an unholy mess we would still have been.So no... don''t even try to give the cook credit for ''saving'' the club yet again. It was pure good fortune.... similar to when she was cynically shoe horned into the club at the expense of the great Robert Chase.[/quote]That''s certainly one viewpoint."They were little more than administrators" - they were appointed by the board, not the administrators. So a great deal different really."similar to when she was cynically shoe horned into the club at the expense of the great Robert Chase."  I''m sure Geoffrey Watling would be proud of your spin on his actions to save the club after Chase ran it aground.  Watling''s judgement, or yours?  Tough one.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,414]

Cluck wrote

"Hired?

They were little more than administrators coming in to wrap up the mess Smith had created... and but for Paul Lambert, an unholy mess we would still have been.

So no... don''t even try to give the cook credit for ''saving'' the club yet again. It was pure good fortune.... similar to when she was cynically shoe horned into the club at the expense of the great Robert Chase"

So they just waltzed in, without invite and performed their administration duties....

is that what you''re saying?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Tony Moore"]Well said PurpleCanary. A well thought-out inciseful piece of work. It''s such a shame that this message board is not graced with more insights such as this. Unfortunately what we seem to have is a pretty infantile collection of individuals who appear to delight in making most posts degenerate into pathetic name-calling,insult trading, and generally disrepectful behaviour. By way of evidence you only have to look at Paul Cluckbert''s intial response, followed by the inevitable point-scoring that spoils so much of this board. Anyhow despite all of that I really do appreciate the good work of people such as you PurpleCanary. Keep it up!! OTBC[/quote]

 

While some of what you say is undoubtedly true Tony I think you are being unfair on the other posters. This is still the best Norwich board which is graced with many good posters. Otherwise why would posters like Purple hang around for so long? Your post is disrespectful to many. Maybe you could point me towards your previous well thought out posts so that we can understand the standards we should be aspiring towards.

 

 

[. 0]

[quote user="Wings of a Sparrow"]Cluck wrote

"Hired?

They were little more than administrators coming in to wrap up the mess Smith had created... and but for Paul Lambert, an unholy mess we would still have been.

So no... don''t even try to give the cook credit for ''saving'' the club yet again. It was pure good fortune.... similar to when she was cynically shoe horned into the club at the expense of the great Robert Chase"

So they just waltzed in, without invite and performed their administration duties....

is that what you''re saying?[/quote]More or less......That''s basically what administrators (by any other name) do...Remember the uncontrollable pile of debt and Third Division status Smith had created at the time? 

[ricardo 7,384]

Very interesting and a well explained pocket history of the last 15 years.However PC, what you have written is more of a combined prosecution opening and a defence statement all rolled into one.So what is the verdict??????Or should we all vote???

[Beauseant 0]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert"]


Change the record for gawd''s sake.

[/quote]

Apparently without any sense of irony whatsoever.

[blahblahblah 2]

Excellent post as usual PC.

For me the main, and crucial difference between Bowkett / McNally, and Munby / Doomy, has been the ability to pick a manager. No messing about with rounds of interviews with managers who were out of work, and often for good reason, or unproven. McNally found his man, who at the time had Colchester playing out of their skins, but who would see Norwich as a step up, and did everything he could to get him.

The right manager saves you, and makes you millions of pounds, especially when you have someone who finds cheap, young, talented players, and can turn them into players capable of playing at the top level.

I do wonder what will happen in a season or two, as the best players Lambert got to see week in week out at league 1 and championship level are no longer available / have been snapped up, and a newer generation of players come through the ranks - will we still find the best pickings from the leagues below ? Or will we be singing the Peter Crouches, or Etheringtons of this world, as Stoke have done ?

McNally, unlike Munby and Doomy, who are no doubt very capable men in their own fields, is a football administrator, not just an administrator, and I''m certain that we have seen the benefits of his wheeling and dealing and contacts on the pitch, as part of the overall contribution to the team that has become a 9th position in the Premier League.

[. 0]

[quote user="Beauseant"]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert"]

Change the record for gawd''s sake.[/quote]

Apparently without any sense of irony whatsoever.

[/quote]And you are who?Oh yes... I remember now.......

[star_manic 0]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert"][quote user="Trent Canary"][quote user="Beauseant"]

Unsurprisingly, given it''s author, it''s well thought out and balanced look at what''s gone on over the last 15 years.

As usual, where extreme positions are taken the facts suggest that the truth lies somewhere in between, but I expect that different conclusions will be drawn by different people. Personally I think that S&J have made some bad decisions and some good decisions. We suffered for the bad ones and now we''re benefitting from the good ones. I will freely admit that I was losing faith in them at the time of St Andrews Hall meeting but, with the benefit of hindsight, particularly having seen what''s happened at Pompey and Blackburn, I am very glad to have them as owners of our club.

[/quote]

Sums it up for me. I was chatting to a friend of mine who is a Pompey fan the other day, try telling him that S+J are bad owners.

The Cullum reference was quite funny, and appropriate too.
[/quote]


Let''s all use Portsmouth as an example again shall we?...... Change the record for gawd''s sake.

Had Smith not got lucky at the death we''d be in the same boat... and likewise if Robert Chase had got just as lucky the bilge which was served up for years prior to Lambert''s arrival might never have happened.

But then that doesn''t fit nicely into the fairy tale does it?
[/quote].........so basically what you are saying is that chase would need to have got lucky to run the canaries properly. but surely having sutton on our books was indeed this good luck that was deemed surplus to requirements and failing to back your manager in his ambitions was asking for bad luck. sorry, both had/have good and bad points, it''s just that s&j seem to have realised this and have rectified the situation.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="ricardo"]Very interesting and a well explained pocket history of the last 15 years.

However PC, what you have written is more of a combined prosecution opening and a defence statement all rolled into one.

So what is the verdict??????

Or should we all vote???
[/quote]

 

A good question, ricardo. Various reasons why there wasn''t a separate verdict. Firstly, the bl**dy thing was quite long enough without one! Secondly, I was hoping (and this may still happen) that the subsequent debate would throw up extra arguments and/or facts that would support or indeed contradict what I have written. I would be quite happy to revise the piece in the light of new information.

 

That said, I - and you as well, I think - don''t exist in some absurd black and white Hollywood world of goodies and baddies. I left that behind several decades ago. With very few exceptions, people are not either flawless geniuses or absolute incompetents. Most are a mixture. If I have a verdict it is that both the prosecution and the defence are right. Which is how it normally is in the real world.

[. 0]

[quote user="star_manic"][quote user="Paul Cluckbert"][quote user="Trent Canary"][quote user="Beauseant"]

Unsurprisingly, given it''s author, it''s well thought out and balanced look at what''s gone on over the last 15 years.

As usual, where extreme positions are taken the facts suggest that the truth lies somewhere in between, but I expect that different conclusions will be drawn by different people. Personally I think that S&J have made some bad decisions and some good decisions. We suffered for the bad ones and now we''re benefitting from the good ones. I will freely admit that I was losing faith in them at the time of St Andrews Hall meeting but, with the benefit of hindsight, particularly having seen what''s happened at Pompey and Blackburn, I am very glad to have them as owners of our club.

[/quote]Sums it up for me. I was chatting to a friend of mine who is a Pompey fan the other day, try telling him that S+J are bad owners.The Cullum reference was quite funny, and appropriate too.[/quote]

Let''s all use Portsmouth as an example again shall we?...... Change the record for gawd''s sake.Had Smith not got lucky at the death we''d be in the same boat... and likewise if Robert Chase had got just as lucky the bilge which was served up for years prior to Lambert''s arrival might never have happened.But then that doesn''t fit nicely into the fairy tale does it?[/quote].........so basically what you are saying is that chase would need to have got lucky to run the canaries properly. but surely having sutton on our books was indeed this good luck that was deemed surplus to requirements and failing to back your manager in his ambitions was asking for bad luck. sorry, both had/have good and bad points, it''s just that s&j seem to have realised this and have rectified the situation.[/quote]So you''re saying that if Robert Chase had taken City down to Division Three.... 20+ million pounds in debt (having sold all the land assets etc) .... a laughable luvvie manager and a team of Scottish rejects.... THEN had someone (pseudo administrators) come along to take over the running of the club and sort things out for him he would be lauded as an equally great Saviour?Also.... does selling the likes of Sutton (who Robert Chase produced) is more of a sin than taking us down to Division Three? Did Robert Chase in fact not back Martin O''Neill as was reported... or was he just a temperamental prima donna who would have walked when it suited him anyway?One rule for one and one rule for others I''m afraid......

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,023]

A very good post by the OP. In my lifetime as a Norwich supporter all owners have made mistakes, my Chase Out mug bears testimony to that, sure Delia and MWJ have made mistakes and I am not a big fan of theirs, that said, and despite my personal feelings, I acknowledge that there are loads of clubs in a far worse postion than Norwich City FC.....

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Jack Flash"] Why not enjoy the fact that we have a Club with minimal debt, sensible pay structure, a very good average age, and we are actually 9th in the PL. Luck. No way. As is an oft repeated saying, "You make your own luck".[/quote]

Under the superb leadership and management of Bowkett, McNally and Lambert.

Without that two year holiday from servicing the debt do you think we would have avoided administration? 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,023]

Robert Chase "produced" Chris Sutton.......does this mean that:

a) He is his biological father

b) He cloned him in the laboratory

c) He personally scouted him whilst he was playing for Knapton Narcoleptics U11`s

Or did just get lucky that one of his hired hands scouted him?......

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Paul Cluckbert"]
So was it luck that the lifeboat saved her skin? Or was it Smith''s skill that she sunk the good ship Canary so close to help?

[/quote]

Who hired Bowkett?

[/quote]

I wonder if the need for a businessman with gravitas to persuade the creditors, i.e., the Bank and Axa (the Loan Note holder) to give NCFC a holiday from servicing the debt had anything to do with it? 

 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Tangible Fixed Question Mark"]

[quote user="Jack Flash"] Why not enjoy the fact that we have a Club with minimal debt, sensible pay structure, a very good average age, and we are actually 9th in the PL. Luck. No way. As is an oft repeated saying, "You make your own luck".[/quote]

Under the superb leadership and management of Bowkett, McNally and Lambert.

Without that two year holiday from servicing the debt do you think we would have avoided administration? 

[/quote]

As has repeatedly been pointed out Doncaster was invited to resign by the owners. As was Munby. Then while you were trying to goad someone into a Delia out campaign those same owners went about finding a new CE which led them to McNally. Having appointed McNally they then set about the difficult task of persuading Bowkett to come on board.

 

We would only have found out what may or may not have happened if we hadn''t got that two year holiday from servicing the debt if you and your ilk had got your way and forced the owners out before they had constructed the new board.