Would you rather a return to the Championship?

[BroadstairsR 2,273]

Would you rather a return to the Championship than NCFC resort to paying the ridiculouly high wages that some of these "superstars" expect nowadays?

 

Yes say I.

 

Not an easy thing to contemplate though. Would it be back to "Little Ol'' Norwich" or would  it be sensible housekeeping?

 

Should it be "Ambition with prudence," (or whatever it was called,)  or should it be "Speculate to accumulate?"

 

Is it "Grab the moment," or "Plan for tomorrow?"

 

Is it the likes of Messi? or do we stick with the Steve Morisons? No ignore that last one, I''m getting carried away.

 

None of us like the fact that the Rooneys and even much lesser players become millionaires in half of a season. It is an affront to all us bread and butter or dripping or pint of bitter supporters. They deserve a lot, but, like banker''s bonusses it has become an anathema to all us normals. Completely and totally out of hand.  Neither does it guarantee success or even Prem. survival eg. Hull, Portsmouth et al.

 

Difficult decision. It is for me anyhow, and I''m not really meaning the daft stuff, but more me getting concerned about us getting sucked into the quicksand in a smaller way really and gradually abandoning our principles as the rarified air of the Premiership takes it''s toll on rational decision making and the taste of the best champagne becomes addictive and induces unrealistic expectations. 

But hark, the angel of good sense ( not Gary Lineker for once) is hovering above.   The dilemna will soon not be ours. There will be rules to stop this folly. Rules I tell you. The new reguations which restrict expenditure to turnover come into force in the Championship next season and are to be applied to the Premiership two years later. These should hopefully change the game as we know it and I am certain it will be for the better even though the ''Arry''s of the busines will find a loophole or three.

 

ATM, they seem a bit ambigious and open to mis-interpretation, but I would assume turnover includes gate money, transfer fees etc, sponsorship, advertising, along with the biggee Premier League/ Sky money and Cup retuns. I presume that expenditure relates to fees and wages and little else. Although Club shop money could count too I suppose. Money from the Hotel, carparking, Canary Credit Card, Delia''s Pies, the fruit machine in the bar ???

[ChelmsfordCanary 0]

The game changes so football clubs have too. I have had enough of lower leagues, we are finally where we belong. Yes I dont like the way players agents play a big part in football / wage demands etc, but we will have to grow and develop as a club, the premiership is where we can do that due to the lucrative financial position we will be in.

Championship football you cant grow as a club, lets aim big and hope through a few successful years we are the team Norwich used to be and be proud of it.

We have proved this season that you do not need big name signings you need grit, determination, no fear team attitude. Yes if we are to stay in the league we might need to strengthen with a couple of bigger names.

This is where the manager, players board come in, why under acheive and drop to a league we know we do not belong, we have proved that this season.

[pete_norw 0]

Interesting artical in the news this morning, 8 premier league clubs close to going bust, I think its fair to say that a lot of players are only loyal to their paypacket, and don''t give a stuff about the future of the club they are contracted to, there is the odd exception of coarse, players who stay with that club for years like Giggs, 0ur own Iwan and not forgetting Hucks, and Drury. Players attract woman and end up pulling the strings in which direction  the player goes, and she wants to live like a queen prompting player high wages. In short (Im alright jack attitude)  FIFA and EUAFA or even both have to bring in a wage cap rule, Scottish  football is suffering on  Huge scale.  But time to blow our own trumpet we have it right on ticket prices and S/T payment method .

[BroadstairsR 2,273]

I basically agree, but such an approach has to be tempered with some caution. It is assessing where to draw the line at a particular point in time.

 

Portsmouth didn''t, neither have a few others.

[Shack Attack 0]

We''re not going to be buying ''superstars'' anytime soon so I don''t think it really matters. The Championship is rubbish though and I don''t want to go back there. I know we all used to pretend that we liked it because it was ''proper football'' and much more open but Premier League football is much more fun. Especially now that we''re showing that seventeenth really isn''t an achievement. Sure we might have to pay out some bigger wages at some stage if we want to continue our upward trend but why would you begrudge these young men such riches when they are providing us with some of the best football we''ve seen at Carrow Road (that''s Carrow Road and not The Aviva Dome [:P]) in years?

[BroadstairsR 2,273]

A lot will depend on the effect of the new regulations which will eventually come into force. At the moment it is difficult to assess this and whether or not they will benefit us.

 

There will be no runaway spending a la Chelsea and Manchester City orl  extravagences such as the Andy Carroll farce.

 

My initial assessment is that the rules will make the playing field more even.

[First Wizard 0]

 Back to the Chumps?

 

Hell no.

[BroadstairsR 2,273]

[quote user="First Wizard"]

 Back to the Chumps?

 

Hell no.

[/quote]

 

Yes, I can''t see why I chose the other option initially. Maybe it was the demise of Rangers and the imminent demise of Pompey that influenced my thought for yesterday.

 

However, all the struggling Premiership clubs that are mentioned above are in hot water mainly because of one thing .... wages.

 

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

All things go in cycles BR, and football and its finances is no exception. You are right that there WILL be some discipline brought in re wages and spending. It will be forced on the game, simply because it has not been able to discipline itself. Much in the same way that domestic and company spending is now effectively disciplined from outside forces, largely because Joe Public has not been able to exercise enough self-control of his own finances.

 

The time is not far off now when the ManUtds, Arsenals, Liverpools, Rangers of this world will not be allowed to rack up eye watering levels of debt. The problem, of course will be the Man Citys, Chelseas etc who, technically, are debt-free, only because their "owner" is absolutely loaded.

 

It will be interesting to see how that impacts on the more prudent clubs like Norwich, West Brom, Blackburn, Stoke, Sunderland etc. The fact is that we will, at some stage return to the Championship. The current upturn cannot go on for ever. That is not being negative...just realistic. So no, I do not want to go back there just yet. We seem to be making a pretty good fist of success on the Field allied to success in the Bank Balance, so , let''s enjoy it while we can. Who knows what awaits around the corner.

[ROBFLECK 134]

[quote user="Eric Pickles Pie Supplier"]

All things go in cycles BR, and football and its finances is no exception. You are right that there WILL be some discipline brought in re wages and spending. It will be forced on the game, simply because it has not been able to discipline itself. Much in the same way that domestic and company spending is now effectively disciplined from outside forces, largely because Joe Public has not been able to exercise enough self-control of his own finances.

 

The time is not far off now when the ManUtds, Arsenals, Liverpools, Rangers of this world will not be allowed to rack up eye watering levels of debt. The problem, of course will be the Man Citys, Chelseas etc who, technically, are debt-free, only because their "owner" is absolutely loaded.

 

It will be interesting to see how that impacts on the more prudent clubs like Norwich, West Brom, Blackburn, Stoke, Sunderland etc. The fact is that we will, at some stage return to the Championship. The current upturn cannot go on for ever. That is not being negative...just realistic. So no, I do not want to go back there just yet. We seem to be making a pretty good fist of success on the Field allied to success in the Bank Balance, so , let''s enjoy it while we can. Who knows what awaits around the corner.

[/quote]Completely agree Eric, I think the financing and everything related to that will eventually catch up with us, but we''re doing great and we''re not spending silly money. Imo it just depends on how long we can keep hold of PL and how many of the current group will be lured away by the money. Bottom line: I want us to play at the highest level and want to enjoy it as long as possible

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

The clubs you mentioned there may well be run within a degree of control but I would still say that some of the wages being earned at stoke (crouch?), blackburn and sunderland would water the eyes of some of our lads. I think even tuncay at stoke was reported to have signed a £45k per week deal and while I have no proof I guess our top earner is on half of that.

It''s a matter of perspective to some degree, with chelsea paying 3 players £250k per week they may say that R.Madrid are paying excessively with their £450k per week ronaldo deal and therefore to even compete they need to offer this kind of wage. however disgusting you may find it, Norwich will have to increase their wages structure in line with their ability to do so or risk being even further left behind as the young hungery talent dries up from the lower divisions.

incidentally, who do you think is our top earner and how much?

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

[quote user="Son Ova Gunn"]

The clubs you mentioned there may well be run within a degree of control but I would still say that some of the wages being earned at stoke (crouch?), blackburn and sunderland would water the eyes of some of our lads. I think even tuncay at stoke was reported to have signed a £45k per week deal and while I have no proof I guess our top earner is on half of that.

It''s a matter of perspective to some degree, with chelsea paying 3 players £250k per week they may say that R.Madrid are paying excessively with their £450k per week ronaldo deal and therefore to even compete they need to offer this kind of wage. however disgusting you may find it, Norwich will have to increase their wages structure in line with their ability to do so or risk being even further left behind as the young hungery talent dries up from the lower divisions.

incidentally, who do you think is our top earner and how much?

[/quote]

I think some of your figures are massively bloated. Etoo secured a deal with Anzi for £200k a week and it was confirmed that was the largest pay package in European football. I think everytime a newspaper reports a player''s ''wages'' they add 10% each time to make it seem more shocking. A lot of players earnings come from image rights and sponsorship rather than directly from the club - this is possibly where these big figures are coming from.

[. 0]

I don''t like the Premiership and all it stands for. It is in no way the same as the pre-hype First Division which every club had the chance of reaching and even winning with a pool of decent British players often brought through the ranks. The answer is to ship the fancy dan clubs out into a Euro league where they can all take themselves towards bankruptcy before re-applying to come back home with their tails between their legs. I''d then tell them to feck off.It''s not unambitious to enjoy following a club in the lower tiers... it''s just different. I enjoyed it when City were a run of the mill Division Two team and any cup run was the highlight of the season... even the Texaco Cup. It means you are prey to the bigger clubs who will poach your players... but a downturn in City''s fortunes would see the same thing happen in the top flight.We aren''t a ''big club'' and never will be.... and personally I don''t give a monkeys about it.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

A lot of players earnings come from image rights and sponsorship rather than directly from the club - this is possibly where these big figures are coming from.

[/quote]

 

Aren''t ''image rights'' just a massive tax fiddle?

[BroadstairsR 2,273]

[quote user="Alan BowCLUCK"]I don''t like the Premiership and all it stands for. It is in no way the same as the pre-hype First Division which every club had the chance of reaching and even winning with a pool of decent British players often brought through the ranks.

The answer is to ship the fancy dan clubs out into a Euro league where they can all take themselves towards bankruptcy before re-applying to come back home with their tails between their legs. I''d then tell them to feck off.

It''s not unambitious to enjoy following a club in the lower tiers... it''s just different. I enjoyed it when City were a run of the mill Division Two team and any cup run was the highlight of the season... even the Texaco Cup. It means you are prey to the bigger clubs who will poach your players... but a downturn in City''s fortunes would see the same thing happen in the top flight.

We aren''t a ''big club'' and never will be.... and personally I don''t give a monkeys about it.
[/quote]

 

We''re not a "little club" either. I would rather us look upwards than sideways. Ask any Ipswich fan if they are happy with continuous mid-table mediocrity. They most definately are not and it means their attendances are dropping and they consistently post on boards like this to complain about the atmosphere at the Portaloo.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

A lot of players earnings come from image rights and sponsorship rather than directly from the club - this is possibly where these big figures are coming from.

[/quote]

 

Aren''t ''image rights'' just a massive tax fiddle?

[/quote]

Yes and No, obviously for someone like Ronaldo his image is worth millions every year - so he will want to take a cut of that money. Basically if Real Madrid sell a poster of Ronaldo some of the money goes to the club, some to Ronaldo.

 

For someone like John Utaka who had his image rights company out in the Cayman''s a certain amount of tax avoidance was going on.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

I don''t think image rights, per se, are a tax fiddle . They are no different from companies putting a copyright on a brand...in the same way that Nestlé do not allow anyone else to call their choccy covered wafer bicuits "Kit Kat" . Sports stars have been doing it for ages, especially tennis and golf players.

 

But, as BYG says, along with all their other financial affairs, there is ample opportunity to avoid tax, including dogs holding accounts in Monaco, which, as we well know ,was declared perfectly legal last week.

[. 0]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

[quote user="Alan BowCLUCK"]I don''t like the Premiership and all it stands for. It is in no way the same as the pre-hype First Division which every club had the chance of reaching and even winning with a pool of decent British players often brought through the ranks. The answer is to ship the fancy dan clubs out into a Euro league where they can all take themselves towards bankruptcy before re-applying to come back home with their tails between their legs. I''d then tell them to feck off.It''s not unambitious to enjoy following a club in the lower tiers... it''s just different. I enjoyed it when City were a run of the mill Division Two team and any cup run was the highlight of the season... even the Texaco Cup. It means you are prey to the bigger clubs who will poach your players... but a downturn in City''s fortunes would see the same thing happen in the top flight.We aren''t a ''big club'' and never will be.... and personally I don''t give a monkeys about it.[/quote]

 

We''re not a "little club" either. I would rather us look upwards than sideways. Ask any Ipswich fan if they are happy with continuous mid-table mediocrity. They most definately are not and it means their attendances are dropping and they consistently post on boards like this to complain about the atmosphere at the Portaloo.

[/quote]The Premiership is all about a handful of ''big clubs'' and teams like Norwich simply make up the numbers.We are a ''little club'' in the eyes of anyone other than a Norwich City fan.... and we should realise that. Ipswich are a ''bigger club'' based on their record and it has nothing to do with bums on seats at Portman Road.Sheffield Wednesday and Leeds are considered ''big clubs'' despite their present lowly status... yet Wigan have stayed in the Premiership for years and remain a ''little club''. It''s all about perception.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

Norwich are perceived as a bigger club than ipswich. It''s about recognition both throughout the UK and even worldwide. Norwich have a far bigger national and international fanbase than ipswich. Probably due to the fact that we are a much older league club and our proud city status and history.

 

 

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

Cluck says that the Prem is all about a handful of "big clubs" with the rest making up the numbers. Well, this is what I was getting at when I referred to things going in cycles . The current situation is, in the grand scheme of things, very recent, and likely to be short-lived. Most members of this board can remember teams like Villa and Nottm For winning the league . For Gawd''s sake we came within a whisker of it as little as 20 yrs ago !

 

So yes, perception  does come into it, but only in a very small way . What most people consider now is what the reality is, but those who have longer memories know that things can change and very quickly too. Also, it all depends on how you define it.  Money in the bank ? Level of Debt ? Size of stadium ?  Appearances on Telly? Attendances ? Trophies in the cabinet ?

 

So, sure , you can go on all sorts of ethereal stuff like "pride in the City" , "a bond that keeps the local society together" etc etc, but, ultimately, people go on their gut instinct . To us Norwich is a big club, but in the end it''s a meaningless phrase.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

It''s not meaningless these days though Eric. Having a stronger international fanbase will result in much more income for the club. Back in the day the only real contact was a pink un being sent around the world and arriving maybe a week late. Now these fans have instant access to the club through the internet and to merchandise through the online store. These fans have "never had it so good"[H]

 

Norwich could be in a very strong position when the Sky money has gone. McNally recognises this. His comments last year about football being very cyclical boil down to the same thing as your first point on the post.

 

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"][quote user="Son Ova Gunn"]

The clubs you mentioned there may well be run within a degree of control but I would still say that some of the wages being earned at stoke (crouch?), blackburn and sunderland would water the eyes of some of our lads. I think even tuncay at stoke was reported to have signed a £45k per week deal and while I have no proof I guess our top earner is on half of that.

It''s a matter of perspective to some degree, with chelsea paying 3 players £250k per week they may say that R.Madrid are paying excessively with their £450k per week ronaldo deal and therefore to even compete they need to offer this kind of wage. however disgusting you may find it, Norwich will have to increase their wages structure in line with their ability to do so or risk being even further left behind as the young hungery talent dries up from the lower divisions.

incidentally, who do you think is our top earner and how much?

[/quote]

I think some of your figures are massively bloated. Etoo secured a deal with Anzi for £200k a week and it was confirmed that was the largest pay package in European football. I think everytime a newspaper reports a player''s ''wages'' they add 10% each time to make it seem more shocking. A lot of players earnings come from image rights and sponsorship rather than directly from the club - this is possibly where these big figures are coming from.

[/quote]

True, newspapers do love to inflate the true but there are some creditable  sources out their saying the Eto deal with Anzi was a basic salarly of £375k a week and that Ronaldo''s basic salarly is £220k per week, which when you add the bonuses and the image rights would take you to the figures i have suggested. You cannot discount bonuses such as goal and apperance fee''s, winning cups and places or the money recieved from the club for image rights from the wage because that comes from the club, its what the club are paying them and is relevant to the discussion on whether we would like NCFC to join the circus.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s not meaningless these days though Eric. Having a stronger international fanbase will result in much more income for the club.

[/quote]

Well OK Nutty, I take your point. I guess what I''m getting at is that "big club" is an impossible to define phrase .

 

I''d certainly not take issue with any of the other things that you say . In the old days, it was a matter of simple maths that Man Utd /City would have a bigger fanbase in a city of nigh on 1 million inhabitants than somewhere like Norwich , with a population of 150,000. But, as you say, with modern communications, there is no logical reason why a football fan in Los Angeles, Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur or Delhi should not have as much opportunity to regard Norwich as "his " club , rather than Chelsea, Man U or Liverpool.

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Having a stronger international fanbase will result in much more income for the club.

 

[/quote]

Im not saying you are wrong, but will our international exposure really increase to any significant effect the club coffers? I dont doubt at all that the increased statue of the club being in the premiership is important and cannot be underestimated, indeed I regually travel abroad with a notts forest fan and the difference this year was amazing, but do these fans really buy official merchandise? im not sure. The waiter in jamacia that fetched my drinks was wearing a lovely pair of Gucci sunglasses but I doubt if Gucci saw a penny if you know what I mean.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

I get you SOG. But I think the established international fan base probably do buy official merchandise. Maybe some on here could answer this. When I met Justin (Newyorkcanary) at the Spurs game he had a Norwich shirt on. Kev (Leedscanary) seems to have the real deal when it comes to merchandise. These are just two that I know personally. There''s others post on here so if any of you are reading this - do you use the online store?

 

In Turkey you can get the full kids Barcelona kit for about a tenner. All boxed up looking sooo genuine. A bit like your waiter''s sunglasses. As of last year I didn''t see any Norwich "replicas" but I''ll look out for them this summer now we are a top ten Prem club[;)]

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

In Turkey you can get the full kids Barcelona kit for about a tenner. All boxed up looking sooo genuine. A bit like your waiter''s sunglasses. As of last year I didn''t see any Norwich "replicas" but I''ll look out for them this summer now we are a top ten Prem club[;)]

[/quote]

 

Saw a poor quality Norwich replica kit on sale at the big Bangkok weekend market 18 mths ago . But, yes, generally, when you see yellow and green shirts on sale at such emporia, and get all excited, 99.9% of the time, on closer inspection ,they turn out to be Brazil ones.

 

It''s not just in Turkey you can get Barça replicas, Nutty . Just over the border from chez Eric, there are all the Costa Brava markets, and , on them there are dozens of stalls with Barça knock-offs. You can pick up a pretty good one with "Messi" on the back for about 15€ . You''d have thought with the cosy relationship between the club and the Catalan authorities there''d be regular crackdowns on this sort of thing, but that doesn''t appear to be the case at all.

 

So, I see SOG''s point. A lot of the revenue on any new found NCFC merchandise sales  will , likely as not, be trousered by the pirates.

[lake district canary 0]

Correct me somebody if I''m wrong, but one of the problems in 94 / 95 was that due to the success we were having and the progress made by the team, it was deemed by everybody that to go to the next level and to be able to hang on to our best players - more money would be needed.  More money than the club could afford to pay out. 

 

I guess this subject has been done to death, but it does seem to have a relevance, given the upward curve we have been on.   My feelings are that if finances can be kept to a realistic level, then we be as successful as we can be within that - and then if that means going back down to the championship at some stage, it means that we would be in a healthy position to have another crack at promotion.  There has to be a limit to what clubs can spend - realism has to set in to football.   I don''t ever want to see Norwich as a club with players and wages it can''t afford.   I would rather get relegated and go again within the club''s means.

 

As much as I don''t want relegation, it must not be feared, on the contrary it should be seen as a possible outcome for a season.  If relegation happens, unpleasant as it is, if the club is in a healthy financial position, with wages and players it can afford, off we go again.   We are Norwich City, premiership, championship, league 1 - we are a big club with a fantastic following.   If the business is done off the pitch in a business like manner, the rest will take care of itself.   

 

I for one will not accuse the board of a lack of ambition if they say we can''t afford to go to the next level, whatever that is.  We have to optimise our resources and do the best we can - much like we are now!  Long may we continue to have a well run club (and no sugar daddies).

 

 

 

 

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

Completely agree LDC, I would rather we us back in the championship than risk than see the type of players like Barton leeching the club dry in an attempt to ''progress to the next level''. However, if you were the chairman and in sitting in your office in july and in walks Holt, Pilkington and Holahoop saying we want to play for NCFC but my agent has offers from other clubs willing to pay me £40k per week and your only paying £15k can I have an improved contract? what would you do? its difficult and very easy to see how clubs like birmingham start to pay that little more than they should, and if they come up this season has it done them any harm?

[. 0]

I''m afraid too many are getting carried away with the hype about NCFC. Today we are mid table in the Premiership... a year or two back we were thrashed at home by Colchester.Football is cyclical... but comparing our  ''cycle'' to that of Leeds, Nottingham Forest, Blackburn or Ipswich... Norwich are a small club. You can all puff your chests out as far as you like.... but we''ve never won the FA Cup, never won the Premier League/Division One title and only been in Europe once... and got knocked out.On that basis I could name many clubs more sucessful than us historically... and that is the authentic gauge as to ''how big'' we actually are.

[Pyro Pete 2,353]

Things do go in cycles. But the ridiculous thing for me is that when football clubs hit a decline today they risk going out of business all together.  This just isn''t right for businesses that are so important to their local communities.