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BlyBlyBabes

Holt, Hoolahan & Fox must start on Saturday

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[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

Do I need to explain why?

[/quote]

 

If you want a polite and reasoned response then yes you do need to explain. You might also like to explain who they are going to replace and what formation you want us to play. Otherwise it is all a bit pointless.

 

I agree with you on at least two out of the three but I''m not telling you who until you give us your reasons [:P]

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It''s something of a dilemma really isn''t it? It''s been easy fielding the likes of Hoolahan & Holt up until the Premier, but the Diamond doesn''t work so well in the former unless you have the quality of player that we currently don''t have. Saying that, I''m not so sure we possess the quality to field a successful 4-4-2.Maybe the quality required to stay in this Division will be acquired in January.

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[quote user="Shyster"]It''s something of a dilemma really isn''t it? It''s been easy fielding the likes of Hoolahan & Holt up until the Premier, but the Diamond doesn''t work so well in the former unless you have the quality of player that we currently don''t have. Saying that, I''m not so sure we possess the quality to field a successful 4-4-2.

[/quote]

 

Agreed.

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I agree its difficult to fit the best 11 players into a 4-4-2. I still think that one thing we really need in January is a strong holding central midfielder to enable us to play a more creative option alongside them in the middle. Having said that personally on Saturday I would go with:

Ruddy

Naughton Barnett Martin Tierney

Bennett Fox Johnson Hoolahan

Holt Morison

Could maybe work as a diamond instead of conventional 4-4-2 but as Newcastle have some pace out wide I think flat 4-4-2 may be better. Maybe play Pilkington instead of Bennett but i don''t think Pilks has been quite as good on the right.

Failing that then swicth back to the 4-2-3-1 again and Holt to come off the bench.

 

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Jim I would agree that is exactly the right team for this game.

 

Midfield diamond would be ideal, EB can work alongside Naughton and continue there defensive tandom. Also he has the engine and speed to support in attack. Fox and Johnson to sit back a little and allow Hoolahan to play in the diamond drift to the left a little and allow the two big men to rattle the defensive centre half partenrship. I believe Pilkington does not have the pace to get back as quickly as Benno and believe his tracking back has been very impressive.

 

This is not the game to play the 4-2-3-1, time to really go for it with two strikers who are finding the back of the net and really hustle this newcastle team, we can always revert to a more solid and containing line up with the sub on the bench. If ever was a game suited for us to play a pretty attacking line up this is the game. Not against a top six and not against a rival (at this stage), but a home game against a team just having a blip, possible confidence issues and players out in key positions.

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I''ve decided we need another option for Hoolahan.

Say the like of Pacheco, makes things happen, holds the ball, good passer

Who can also adapt better then Wes, and play in a 442.

Think if De Laet was fit he would be playing right back rather than Naughton at weekend

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This looks remarkably similar to a post I started a few threads down, why the new one Bly?

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[quote user="Clint"]This looks remarkably similar to a post I started a few threads down, why the new one Bly?
[/quote]

Your thread started and finished yesterday Clint. I don''t look at the previous days postsunless I initiated them

 

And you evidently didn''t want Holt to start.

 

Holt starting instead of Morison is actually my priority out of my three.

 

Chalk and cheese, I think they say.

 

But still, one love.

 

OTBC

 

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Ah but that''s where you wrong Bly as I do wan''t Holt to start, although I would play both him and Morison up front this week.

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[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

[quote user="Clint"]This looks remarkably similar to a post I started a few threads down, why the new one Bly?
[/quote]

Your thread started and finished yesterday Clint. I don''t look at the previous days postsunless I initiated them

 

And you evidently didn''t want Holt to start.

 

Holt starting instead of Morison is actually my priority out of my three.

 

Chalk and cheese, I think they say.

 

But still, one love.

 

OTBC

 

[/quote]

If I was Morison I would get out of this club as soon as the first of many offers comes in January. That is not to shoot Holt down in any way so please dont say I said Holt was rubbish ect because I have not. What I have said is Morison should be respected. Do you really think we would be where we are without Morison ? 

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[quote user="Lambert is King"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

[quote user="Clint"]This looks remarkably similar to a post I started a few threads down, why the new one Bly?
[/quote]

Your thread started and finished yesterday Clint. I don''t look at the previous days postsunless I initiated them

 

And you evidently didn''t want Holt to start.

 

Holt starting instead of Morison is actually my priority out of my three.

 

Chalk and cheese, I think they say.

 

But still, one love.

 

OTBC

 

[/quote]

If I was Morison I would get out of this club as soon as the first of many offers comes in January. That is not to shoot Holt down in any way so please dont say I said Holt was rubbish ect because I have not. What I have said is Morison should be respected. Do you really think we would be where we are without Morison ? 

[/quote]

 

Yes.

 

OTBC

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So, what''s your team, then, Bly?

I too would like all three of those players to start. But I can''t see how it happens without playing at least one of them (probably Wes) out of position.

Best I could do would be a flat midfield four of

Wes  Fox Crofts Pilkington

with

Holt Morison

up front

I''d play Wes on the right, not the left. He looked really dangerous cutting in from there against Liverpool. If you play the diamond I can''t see how Fox can be at the base of it - we need a better defensive player there.

I don''t think we have a best formation - they all have their weaknesses - but I think I would go for the 4-2-3-1, with Fox and Crofts  the holding players, Pillkington Wes and Surman providing some creativity behind Morison. It''s rough on Holt, but the team''s the most important thing. 

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As we are still waiting for Bly to tell us how he plans to fit all three into our side I''ll share my thoughts for all they are worth. I tend to agree with Robert in that it is difficult to see how you can fit all three into any formation without playing at least one out of position. The 4-4-2 with Wes in a wide position is an option but I feel that the central midfield pairing does not have the strength or the control to come out on top at this level in most cases. And quite frankly when Shyster starts to doubt whether we have the players for a 4-4-2 you know that it is not really an option [;)]

 

Of the three players Bly mentions it is the absence of Holt which seems to generate the most angst amongst fans. I don''t buy this talisman stuff that posters talk about and I would imagine Paul Lambert doesn''t either. Grant Holt is a very good centre forward who has proved himself to be amongst the very best in his division over the past two seasons but he has been massively helped by his team mates. Without them he would not have had the success that he has and to put him on a pedestal above the rest is massively disrespectful to them. I actually think it is starting to get a little out of hand now and wonder how Steve Morison must feel when he does everything asked of him and more but only hears the fans chanting for the man he has replaced. When Glenn Roeder released Darren Huckerby he talked of ''new heroes'' and it affected the performances of Wes Hoolahan (well that and the fact that Roeder constantly played him out of position) for the early part of his career. There has never been any of that talk with Paul Lambert who extols the virtues of the team in nearly every interview he gives. His most used phrase must be ''Listen the lads have been fantastic for me since the first day I arrived here''. It is very rare that he singles one player out for praise (Morison against Swansea) and even when he does he is soon back to praising the squad as a whole. Grant Holt himself seems to accepted the role he is being asked to play so it is about time the fans stopped behaving like lovestruck teenage girls when their hero doesn''t get a game.

 

4-2-3-1 is our best option but it has to be played like that and not be allowed to drift into a 4-5-1. For that to happen we have to retain the ball better which means we need our best passers in the team. Our ball retention has been poor this season and when you don''t have the ball the natural thing to do is to retreat and play a lot deeper. I would play Fox alongside Crofts or Johnson as the deeper two and Wes, Surman and one of Pilkington or Bennett as the three advanced midfielders behind Morison. I think we can revert to the diamond later on in games as we did against QPR (we simply don''t have the players for the side positions to be able to cope with playing this for ninety minitues in my opinion) at which point I would introduce Holty to take advantage of tiring legs and minds.

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[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="Lambert is King"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

[quote user="Clint"]This looks remarkably similar to a post I started a few threads down, why the new one Bly?
[/quote]

Your thread started and finished yesterday Clint. I don''t look at the previous days postsunless I initiated them

 

And you evidently didn''t want Holt to start.

 

Holt starting instead of Morison is actually my priority out of my three.

 

Chalk and cheese, I think they say.

 

But still, one love.

 

OTBC

 

[/quote]

If I was Morison I would get out of this club as soon as the first of many offers comes in January. That is not to shoot Holt down in any way so please dont say I said Holt was rubbish ect because I have not. What I have said is Morison should be respected. Do you really think we would be where we are without Morison ? 

[/quote]

 

Yes.

 

OTBC

[/quote]

So without twisting my words - remember I have not said Holt is rubbish in any way - what would change with Holt starting now ? He has started 5 games and we have managed the sum total of 2 points from 15. It may possibly work against Newcastle with Morison and Holt up front because of Newcastles current injury circumstances but Holt on his own or with somebody else mmm.

Like I said before Morison is clearly never going to be accepted at this club by some. That situation I find unhealthy as in this instance you clearly think the manager does not know what he is doing. Force Morison out and unless it is because Lambert wants him out ie he has signed an even better centre forward then I suggest Lamberts ambitions at this club will be finished.  

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Hit the nail on the head there. That 4231 has only happened once against swansea the rest of the time its been 451. As for grant Holt, he has not left our club like hucks had at the time roeder made them comments. you clearly don''t rate Holt at this level. it was not long ago that we did not even have a single striker on our books that was ours. to completely dismiss what Holt has done for our club is shocking. I would except the dismissal of Holt IF he was not good enough at this level, he clearly is and to not play too strikers at home against teams around us is madness. the problem Lambert has is some of the rest of the team are not good enough. morison has performed excellently so far but is far from the complete player. very strong and quick. one of the best headers of the ball I''ve seen but his first touch can be poor and I''ve yet to see him testing the keeper with quality shots. a lot of that has something to do with him playing on his own and I know I''m being ultra critical but you are of Holt. Holt is not the same player and.has his faults aswell but both together could.be a real handfuli think. its the rest of the team I worry about. Holt is.our captain and yes our talisman and should be.starting.with big Steve on.Saturday

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[quote user="Bryangunnshairline"]Hit the nail on the head there. That 4231 has only happened once against swansea the rest of the time its been 451. As for grant Holt, he has not left our club like hucks had at the time roeder made them comments. you clearly don''t rate Holt at this level. it was not long ago that we did not even have a single striker on our books that was ours. to completely dismiss what Holt has done for our club is shocking. I would except the dismissal of Holt IF he was not good enough at this level, he clearly is and to not play too strikers at home against teams around us is madness. the problem Lambert has is some of the rest of the team are not good enough. morison has performed excellently so far but is far from the complete player. very strong and quick. one of the best headers of the ball I''ve seen but his first touch can be poor and I''ve yet to see him testing the keeper with quality shots. a lot of that has something to do with him playing on his own and I know I''m being ultra critical but you are of Holt. Holt is not the same player and.has his faults aswell but both together could.be a real handfuli think. its the rest of the team I worry about. Holt is.our captain and yes our talisman and should be.starting.with big Steve on.Saturday[/quote]

Who has said that about Holt ? I and others are challengeing why people want Morison dropped and in some instances out of the club ? Please could you name me any other premiership teams fans and include all teams, that would be suggesting their centre forward should be dropped or is not good enough after scoring 4 goals in 5 games ? People are dont forget because of Newcastles centre half situation suggesting Holt could start on Saturday with Morison.

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No way in the world Morison should be dropped.

I too am a big fan of the 4-2-3-1, particularly away from home, as I feel it is the only formation which gives us the midfield platform and the possession to compete with the players we currently have available in midfield. It enables us to play Wes and two wider midfielders. I also agree though that it only really works for us when we play it with three attacking midfielders as when we have played more defensive players in that formation it turns into a 4-5-1, we have no outlet and Morison gets isolated.

This will sound a bit hypocritical having posted yesterday that we need to play our own game and stop worrying so much about the opposition but the reason i think we should play 4-4-2 with Holt and Morison up front on Saturday is due to the problems Newcastle have at the back. They will almost certainly be playing young, inexperienced defenders at centre back, at least one of whom is not a specialist CB. In those circumstances I think there is a real opportunity for Holt and Morison to bully their defence and if we can get decent service to them i think they would get some joy in the air. As others have pointed out this may mean playing Wes slightly out of position but he can do it for this game if need be.

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I agree morison should not be dropped but needs to form a partnership with holt. The two together would cause all sorts of problems for defenders. It''s getting the rest of the team right and supply to them that''s the problem I think.

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[quote user="Bryangunnshairline"]  you clearly don''t rate Holt at this level. [/quote]

 

 

[quote user="Bryangunnshairline"]

to completely dismiss what Holt has done for our club is shocking. 

[/quote]

 

I take it that your post was directed at me. Where have I said I don''t rate Holt at this level or completely dismissed what he has done for our club? It''s that talisman obsession again clouding your judgement and defending your hero from things that haven''t even been said [:P]

 

[quote user="Bryangunnshairline"] 

 

to not play too strikers at home against teams around us is madness.

 

[/quote]

 

Why? Surely the real madness lies in wanting us to play a system that we clearly don''t have the players to support just so our club captain gets a game.

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I still don''t really understand what was wrong with 4-4-1-1 (I don''t think it was a 4-2-3-1 as Bennett and Pilkington dropped much deeper than wingers in that formation usually do).

 

                            Ruddy

Naughton      Barnett      Martin      Tierney

Bennett           Fox        Johnson    Pilkington

                          Hoolahan

                          Morison

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Yes it was aimed at you shack. I don''t want Holt in just so our captain gets a game. I want him on the pitch for 90 mins because he influences the game and I believe him and morison could form a great partnership. Yes I''m defending a hero and a legend but only because it is defendable. He is good enough at this level and is one of only a handful of players that is not fazed to play at this level. No clouds in my judgement and no I don''t have posters on my bedroom wall, can''t see the wife liking that! We possibly don''t have good enough players in other positions but as has been seen it does not matter what formation we have played we have still conceded . Play to your strengths . Holt, morison, Wes , fox ect are our best players. Form a formation that works around them...

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

I still don''t really understand what was wrong with 4-4-1-1 (I don''t think it was a 4-2-3-1 as Bennett and Pilkington dropped much deeper than wingers in that formation usually do).

 

                            Ruddy

Naughton      Barnett      Martin      Tierney

Bennett           Fox        Johnson    Pilkington

                          Hoolahan

                          Morison

[/quote]

 

I pretty much agree with this and from what I''ve seen this season that side is probably our best starting 11.

 

But I don''t go with all this trying to get favourites / best players in the starting 11. With seven on the bench and three subs football is very much a squad game now. The options to change during the game are just as important as the starting eleven. In fact the best eleven are more than likely not the starting eleven.

 

Beth''s team is the one I''d start with but asking Morison, Bennett and Pilks to work so hard for 90 mins is probably too much. Look to change it  60/70 minutes depending on the state of the game.

 

 

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[quote user="Bryangunnshairline"]Yes it was aimed at you shack. I don''t want Holt in just so our captain gets a game. I want him on the pitch for 90 mins because he influences the game and I believe him and morison could form a great partnership. Yes I''m defending a hero and a legend but only because it is defendable. He is good enough at this level and is one of only a handful of players that is not fazed to play at this level. No clouds in my judgement and no I don''t have posters on my bedroom wall, can''t see the wife liking that! We possibly don''t have good enough players in other positions but as has been seen it does not matter what formation we have played we have still conceded . Play to your strengths . Holt, morison, Wes , fox ect are our best players. Form a formation that works around them...[/quote]

 

But what is your team/formation, then, with those four in it? I don''t mean that sarcastically. It''s a genuine question, because if you can then that might well be the plan to go with. But I don''t offhand see how you accommodate that quartet without having a midfield that is either too lightweight or lacking in width, or both.

 

For me the formation suggested by Bethnal is probably the one for Saturday, although depending on form and fitness I would pick the two wide players from the trio of Surman, Pilkington and Bennett.

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[quote user="Bryangunnshairline"]Diamond[/quote]

 

OK, but what actually is the rest of the team? Presumably a flat back four. Then Fox at the base of the diamond and Hoolahan at the apex, and Holt and Morison up front. But who else in midfield? Because you are heading, as I said, towards a team that is either too lightweight in midfield and/or lacking any kind of width, with the fullbacks potentially exposed. You need to pick a whole team.

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As you stated plus either bj or crofts then one other. Surman and crofts worked well last season and know the system well. Maybe go with them? Yes we lack width but you can''t have it all and i would rather have our best performing players on. I would also like to point out I believe Wes is best in a diamond and as our best player technically we should play him in that role. He looked at his best when he came on v Qpr.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Bryangunnshairline"]Yes it was aimed at you shack. I don''t want Holt in just so our captain gets a game. I want him on the pitch for 90 mins because he influences the game and I believe him and morison could form a great partnership. Yes I''m defending a hero and a legend but only because it is defendable. He is good enough at this level and is one of only a handful of players that is not fazed to play at this level. No clouds in my judgement and no I don''t have posters on my bedroom wall, can''t see the wife liking that! We possibly don''t have good enough players in other positions but as has been seen it does not matter what formation we have played we have still conceded . Play to your strengths . Holt, morison, Wes , fox ect are our best players. Form a formation that works around them...[/quote]

 

But what is your team/formation, then, with those four in it? I don''t mean that sarcastically. It''s a genuine question, because if you can then that might well be the plan to go with. But I don''t offhand see how you accommodate that quartet without having a midfield that is either too lightweight or lacking in width, or both.

 

For me the formation suggested by Bethnal is probably the one for Saturday, although depending on form and fitness I would pick the two wide players from the trio of Surman, Pilkington and Bennett.

[/quote]

 

For what it''s worth, trying to be positive, I think there is one system that could accommodate your four must-have players, though I don''t much like it. You play three central defenders, and Naughton and Tierney as wing-backs. Russell Martin, as one of the central defenders, can get forward into midfield when attacking. And, when defending, the "side" central defenders can cover the full-backs.

 

Then you have Fox and Johnson or Crofts in central midfield, with Hoolahan ahead of them, and Holt and Morison up front. It lacks proper width (with no place for any one of Bennett, Surman or Pilkington) but should be reasonably solid. And gets all your four in.

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[quote user="Bryangunnshairline"]Diamond[/quote]

 

But the diamond itself has massive problems at this level.

 

1) Many teams play with one up top with two wide players high up the pitch ( a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1) which stops the opposition full backs getting forward. One of the keys to the success of the diamond last year was the forward running of Tierney and Russell Martin and if they can''t get forward we become very predictable.

 

2) The two players at the side of the diamond need to be real athletes to cope with getting up and down supporting both defence and attack and stopping the gap between the two points of the diamond from becoming too great. Surman/Lappin and Crofts performed this task admirably last season but I can''t see them coping with the extra pace and tempo you find at this level.

 

3) You need to press the ball high up the pitch as we did last season and then pass well when you get the ball back. Our ball retention has been terrible this season compared to last and without getting a decent amount of possession the diamond will get stretched and the gaps exposed. Teams press a lot higher and a lot harder at this level which makes it difficult for the player at the base of the diamond to get on the ball and control the tempo.

 

4) We don''t have Elliott Ward fit. I''ve not always been his biggest fan but he is our central defender who is the most comfortable with the ball at his feet. He used to link up with either full back and Fox last season and start up our attacks. Maybe he could do that again when he returns from injury but we have already seen the perils of trying to play our way out from the back this season. I saw a statistic last week that we had on average played more long passes per match than any other team in the Premier League. Ward would reduce this but would have to be careful not to fall into the same trap as Russell Martin and Ritchie De Laet have.

 

Used in a short burst (as we did against QPR) I think it could work but I would never start with the diamond at this level. Feel free to come up with your points for why it would be a success [:D]

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