England vs Spain

[GJP 79]

[quote user="exiled blue"] a true world class player doesn`t get himself sent off, and leave his team-mates up against it, [/quote]

Guess that means Zidane wasn''t world class then.

 

Along with any other player who has ever had a red card.

 

Deary me.

[exiled blue 0]

zidane knew that was his last game. rooney is just a child in a man`s body. he doesn`t have a tenth of the talent that zidane had.

do you really believe he`s world class?... seriously?, based on what exactly?. stop believing what the tabloids tell you. use your eyes and your own judgement.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

Here''s one for you then -

 

Rooney or Morison?

[GJP 79]

[quote user="exiled blue"]zidane knew that was his last game. rooney is just a child in a man`s body. he doesn`t have a tenth of the talent that zidane had. do you really believe he`s world class?... seriously?, based on what exactly?. stop believing what the tabloids tell you. use your eyes and your own judgement.[/quote]

Right, so now you''re moving the goal posts, it doesn''t count because it was Zidane''s last game. Which was of course the World Cup Final. But because it was his last game he''s allowed to get sent off.

 

I don''t need the tabloids to tell me anything about football but...man.... even they might speak more sense then you.

 

I would suggest, if you don''t recognise Wayne Rooney has having (what is commonly referred to as) "world class" ability then you''re probably letting your dislike of his character blind you or you simply don''t understand the game well enough to appreciate what makes him such a good player. I''m not sure which one it is with you, could be either.

 

However, I will try to help you. Overlooking the obvious things about him that should spell it out for you (first choice striker for Man Utd etc etc) have a look at his touch and technique, his ability to create chances for himself and his colleagues. His ability to finish chances from all sorts of positions. His ability to protect the ball. His ability to drop off the front line and build damaging passages of attacking play from deep positions.

[Gingerpele 0]

Rooney is world class, he might not have preformed well at the big tournaments, but for me that doesn''t really define a player as world class. Otherwise Messi can''t be considered World Class either...

Was at the game, and England played well enough considering the opponents. Great result really, doesn''t matter that its a friendly, a 1-0 win over the world and Euro champions is a great win).

Darren Bent had nothing the whole time he was on, but when Welbeck came on he managed to make an impression. Now I don''t know if the balls to Welbeck were just better, or if Bent was poor. But on that performance Welbeck is a better choice than Bent.

Parker, ran the midfield for England. Jones didn''t do too badly and even Lampard had a couple of decent moments (was that header already going over the line? Looked like it was curling back towards goal somehow...).

Problem with Spain (same with Barca I suppose) is they don''t show enough urgency when their not winning. They seem to think, oh we''ve got the ball we don''t really need to attack. And while that works sometimes, it doesn''t work all the time. From memory, I think they only had 2 or 3 shots in the first half, yet when they were behind they probably had about 10.Think they were a bit unlucky not to score.

Oh also, to Purple I think it was in another thread about Spain, saying they don''t have a out and out goalscorer or game-winner, David Villa is Spain''s all time top scorer, surely that qualifies him for that role?

Another thing, seemed the Spain fans were booing Torres? Whats he done to offend them? Or maybe they weren''t booing... (was hard to tell with all the anti-chelsea fans around booing him as well...)

[mrs miggins 0]

[quote user="exiled blue"]zidane knew that was his last game. rooney is just a child in a man`s body. he doesn`t have a tenth of the talent that zidane had. do you really believe he`s world class?... seriously?, based on what exactly?. stop believing what the tabloids tell you. use your eyes and your own judgement.[/quote]

 

* ogre in a man''s body

[Gingerpele 0]

exiled blue, have you actually watched Wayne Rooney play football?

From that first goal for Everton against Arsenal it was quite clear he was something special. Yes he may have a poor attitude some of the time, probably down to him not being very clever. But he is a brilliant footballer, and to be honest your saying don''t believe the tabloids, well your just looking at the negative tabloid stuff. Your just looking at a poor tournament record, his silly/immature incidents like the recent kick.

His ability on the pitch is amazing, he has been one of Man.Us best players for the past few seasons, winning 11 trophies, scoring 158 goals in 336 games. But his play style isn''t all about goals anyway, but thats still a pretty good record.

If Rooney isn''t world class, then thats a label that belongs to about 5 or 6 other current players at the most.

[Guest]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]exiled blue, have you actually watched Wayne Rooney play football?

From that first goal for Everton against Arsenal it was quite clear he was something special. Yes he may have a poor attitude some of the time, probably down to him not being very clever. But he is a brilliant footballer, and to be honest your saying don''t believe the tabloids, well your just looking at the negative tabloid stuff. Your just looking at a poor tournament record, his silly/immature incidents like the recent kick.

His ability on the pitch is amazing, he has been one of Man.Us best players for the past few seasons, winning 11 trophies, scoring 158 goals in 336 games. But his play style isn''t all about goals anyway, but thats still a pretty good record.

If Rooney isn''t world class, then thats a label that belongs to about 5 or 6 other current players at the most.[/quote]Don''t normally agree with you on everything, but you are spot on with this. The problem is that some "fans" these days don''t seem to notice/appreciate what happens off the ball - perhaps due to the fact they watch most of their matches on TV and don''t have that opportunity.Rooney is not only a huge talent, but also an incredibly hard-working player with a very impressive scoring record considering he isn''t, and has never been, an out-and-out striker. Perhaps he hasn''t consistently reached the heights a lot thought he would, but to suggest England don''t need him is equal parts hilarious and ridiculous when you compare the depth of squads on show from both teams this evening.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]Rooney is world class, he might not have preformed well at the big tournaments, but for me that doesn''t really define a player as world class. Otherwise Messi can''t be considered World Class either... Was at the game, and England played well enough considering the opponents. Great result really, doesn''t matter that its a friendly, a 1-0 win over the world and Euro champions is a great win). Darren Bent had nothing the whole time he was on, but when Welbeck came on he managed to make an impression. Now I don''t know if the balls to Welbeck were just better, or if Bent was poor. But on that performance Welbeck is a better choice than Bent. Parker, ran the midfield for England. Jones didn''t do too badly and even Lampard had a couple of decent moments (was that header already going over the line? Looked like it was curling back towards goal somehow...).

 

 Problem with Spain (same with Barca I suppose) is they don''t show enough urgency when their not winning. They seem to think, oh we''ve got the ball we don''t really need to attack. And while that works sometimes, it doesn''t work all the time. From memory, I think they only had 2 or 3 shots in the first half, yet when they were behind they probably had about 10.Think they were a bit unlucky not to score. Oh also, to Purple I think it was in another thread about Spain, saying they don''t have a out and out goalscorer or game-winner, David Villa is Spain''s all time top scorer, surely that qualifies him for that role?

 

 Another thing, seemed the Spain fans were booing Torres? Whats he done to offend them? Or maybe they weren''t booing... (was hard to tell with all the anti-chelsea fans around booing him as well...)[/quote]

 

GP, I didn''t see today''s game (England not being my team) but what I said was...

 

GP, as I said it is all a matter of opnion, but what worries me about Spain is that they don''t score that many goals, for all that possession that you mention. Eight in seven games (including one with extra-time) to win the 2010 World Cup. For me they lack that touch either of genius or of dead-eyed finishing that can make the difference when the opposition doesn''t cave in. As the Dutch didn''t in that final, and it took extra time.

 

...and from what you have said I may have had a point! Indeed Villa is their all-time leading scorer, but he is not an out and out goalscorer (you don''t have to take my word for it; this is what Cruyff said: "Villa is not only there to finish plays. Villa is synonymous with depth. It means always being ready to open passing lanes, to draw defenders and thus freeing space for others."). Which is fine. I like that kind of player. But Spain, as tonight, just don''t score as many goals as their supposed dominance would demand. It is not just that they lack a goalscorer. Where is the genius winger to unlock defences when all that passing has got nowhere? A Garrincha or a Hamrin or a Jairzinho or a Best or a Jimmy Johnstone? Nowhere yet to be seen.

 

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]Rooney is world class, he might not have preformed well at the big tournaments, but for me that doesn''t really define a player as world class. Otherwise Messi can''t be considered World Class either... Was at the game, and England played well enough considering the opponents. Great result really, doesn''t matter that its a friendly, a 1-0 win over the world and Euro champions is a great win).

Darren Bent had nothing the whole time he was on, but when Welbeck came on he managed to make an impression. Now I don''t know if the balls to Welbeck were just better, or if Bent was poor. But on that performance Welbeck is a better choice than Bent.  [/quote]

 

And to be fair to Rooney, he''s gone to these tournaments carrying knocks/not being match fit, which, funnily enough, is usually overlooked by his detractors.

 

As for Darren Bent, in his defence he was starved off service for much of the game and had to do a lot of running with very little reward for it. Welback came on against a more tired and stretched Spain.

[GJP 79]

It was also a great header from Bent for the goal.

[jed exodous 0]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]exiled blue, have you actually watched Wayne Rooney play football? From that first goal for Everton against Arsenal it was quite clear he was something special. Yes he may have a poor attitude some of the time, probably down to him not being very clever. But he is a brilliant footballer, and to be honest your saying don''t believe the tabloids, well your just looking at the negative tabloid stuff. Your just looking at a poor tournament record, his silly/immature incidents like the recent kick. His ability on the pitch is amazing, he has been one of Man.Us best players for the past few seasons, winning 11 trophies, scoring 158 goals in 336 games. But his play style isn''t all about goals anyway, but thats still a pretty good record. If Rooney isn''t world class, then thats a label that belongs to about 5 or 6 other current players at the most.[/quote]

 

GP, we can dress stats up in anyway we want to...  Rooney had a very good relationship (on the pitch) with Ronaldo, hes also had Giggs and Scholes around him for virtually his whole career (now they are 3 world class players), thats not forgetting the likes of Tevez and Nani.  Rooney is good but i still say hes not one of the best in the world.  Theres no doubting the guy has talent, but he also has far too much aggression and frustration which gets the better of him far too often.  Hes got a good record for United, but 0.47, but its not as high as Andy Cole, Dwight Yorke or Van Nistelrooy.  Ok, he plays some games in different role, in midfield, but his problem is hes a patchy striker, which i think is why Fergie drops him deeper.  Look at this year, he started on fire then, apart from 2 penalties against a bunch of Romanian postmen, hes not scored in about 6 games.  And also only 3 goals in his last 16 England appearences...

 

This is the great thing about Football, opinions.  I think we''re all gonna have to agree to disagree.  Hes a loss to the side, but nowhere near as big a loss as some think.  Its been a good debate, and the personal insults have been kept to a minimun too which is good...  [:)]

[Yobocop 1,095]

Neil Warnock as England manager?! I''ve heard it all now!

On current form I''d want someone like Tony Pulis or Alan Pardew if they had to be English if not then no question Guus Hiddink.

[kick it off 1,948]

Ginerpele, your guess that Spain had 13 shots total is way out.

They had 21 shots to Englands grand total of 3.

England aren''t my nation, and I can''t argue with the result, fantastic achievement, but the performance was typical of England at the moment, dull and totally lifeless and uninspiring. I accept that playing Spain means that you have to play on the counter, but I thought England were lucky to get the win - Fabregas missed a sitter and Villa''s volley off the inside of the post etc.

I''ll be intrigued to see if they can really put together a decent performance and result vs Sweden as in my opinion, England have played dull football for the past few years, but always ground out the results - I don''t really care if they win, but it would be nice to see them play with the style that the calibre of players they have should be able to produce.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="kick it off"]Ginerpele, your guess that Spain had 13 shots total is way out. They had 21 shots to Englands grand total of 3. England aren''t my nation, and I can''t argue with the result, fantastic achievement, but the performance was typical of England at the moment, dull and totally lifeless and uninspiring. I accept that playing Spain means that you have to play on the counter, but I thought England were lucky to get the win - Fabregas missed a sitter and Villa''s volley off the inside of the post etc. I''ll be intrigued to see if they can really put together a decent performance and result vs Sweden as in my opinion, England have played dull football for the past few years, but always ground out the results - I don''t really care if they win, but it would be nice to see them play with the style that the calibre of players they have should be able to produce.[/quote]

 

And how many shots did each side have on target?  Two shots on target each......... Make of that what you will

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="jed exodous"]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]exiled blue, have you actually watched Wayne Rooney play football? From that first goal for Everton against Arsenal it was quite clear he was something special. Yes he may have a poor attitude some of the time, probably down to him not being very clever. But he is a brilliant footballer, and to be honest your saying don''t believe the tabloids, well your just looking at the negative tabloid stuff. Your just looking at a poor tournament record, his silly/immature incidents like the recent kick. His ability on the pitch is amazing, he has been one of Man.Us best players for the past few seasons, winning 11 trophies, scoring 158 goals in 336 games. But his play style isn''t all about goals anyway, but thats still a pretty good record. If Rooney isn''t world class, then thats a label that belongs to about 5 or 6 other current players at the most.[/quote]

 

GP, we can dress stats up in anyway we want to...  Rooney had a very good relationship (on the pitch) with Ronaldo, hes also had Giggs and Scholes around him for virtually his whole career (now they are 3 world class players), thats not forgetting the likes of Tevez and Nani.  Rooney is good but i still say hes not one of the best in the world.  Theres no doubting the guy has talent, but he also has far too much aggression and frustration which gets the better of him far too often.  Hes got a good record for United, but 0.47, but its not as high as Andy Cole, Dwight Yorke or Van Nistelrooy.  Ok, he plays some games in different role, in midfield, but his problem is hes a patchy striker, which i think is why Fergie drops him deeper.  Look at this year, he started on fire then, apart from 2 penalties against a bunch of Romanian postmen, hes not scored in about 6 games.  And also only 3 goals in his last 16 England appearences...

 

This is the great thing about Football, opinions.  I think we''re all gonna have to agree to disagree.  Hes a loss to the side, but nowhere near as big a loss as some think.  Its been a good debate, and the personal insults have been kept to a minimun too which is good...  [:)]

[/quote]

 

Yes, you can can''t you.  Equally, have the likes of Messi, Silva, Ronaldo et al not benefited from the world class players around them also?

 

Rooney has far too much aggression and frustration?  I don''t see how this is a factor in whether or not the guy is world class?  Take a look at Cantona, Ronaldo, Zidane to name but 3 players of recent times.  With talent, and this can be seen in all walks of life, from painters to footballers often comes a drawback, a fault, strange side to their personality, whatever you want to call it, in other areas.

[exiled blue 0]

"If Rooney isn''t world class, then thats a label that belongs to about 5 or 6 other current players at the most."

that`s actually quite possible. there are times when world football is `blessed` with a great number of outstanding talents, but conversely there must also be times when the cupboard is, if not bare, then certainly less full. i just think he`s dramatically over rated. if he wasn`t english he`d be a `good` player, nothing more.

we`ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="exiled blue"]"If Rooney isn''t world class, then thats a label that belongs to about 5 or 6 other current players at the most." that`s actually quite possible. there are times when world football is `blessed` with a great number of outstanding talents, but conversely there must also be times when the cupboard is, if not bare, then certainly less full. i just think he`s dramatically over rated. if he wasn`t english he`d be a `good` player, nothing more. we`ll have to agree to disagree on this one.[/quote]

 

And if he were Welsh?

[Aggy 752]

To backtrack slightly - Jas, Charlie Adams has played 15 times for Scotland, so not sure we''ll be picking him too soon!

Gingerpele - you mention Spain''s urgency, and I think that''s right, and why I often find them pretty boring. To be fair to them, the last 15 or 20 minutes tonight, they were a bit more urgent, and they had 4 or 5 pretty decent chances - Fabregas missed a couple, Villa went past Hart and missed an open net (albeit from a tight angle) and there were more decent chances in that last 15 minutes or so than they had for the rest of the game really. Maybe if they played a bit more like that all the time they''d score for fun, especially when you consider they had done a fair few subs by that stage of the game.

On the Rooney topic, I think anyone who says he isn''t world class is kidding themselves to try and make a point. He clearly is. As has been said above, if you''re basing your argument on international performances alone, then Messi is a good player, but nothing special. And Rooney has had world class players around him? Again, let''s use Messi - he''s had the likes of Xavi, Iniesta et al around him, but when he''s with Argentina, he hasn''t really shone all that often. Is he an average player who needs the quality of those around him to look good? Get real.

The real issue with Rooney isn''t about his own individual ability, it''s whether he fits into the international set up. At Man Utd everything is in his favour. Not even in terms of formation, but in terms of how they play the game and how they set up. With England that is different and I''m not sure he suits our style very well, I can''t see where he fits in.

Whilst I think you''ve got to take a player like him to tournaments, as he is the one real genius-like inspiration we could have, whether he''d be a permanent fixture in the line up is a different story. I''d probably have him on the bench to come on when we need him and change a game. He probably wouldn''t like that, but I think ultimately, we struggle to get the balance right with Rooney. Get the balance right first, get us playing well, and if we need that extra touch of class and genius against the better sides, bring him on when needed.

[Legend Iwan 30]

Bloody typical, the one time I bet on England to lose and they go and win. Lesson learnt.

[Gingerpele 0]

kick it off I didn''t mean 13 shots total, to be honest I kind of forgot England goal was so early on in the second half. I meant'' 10 or so shots in the last 15/20 mins.

[Gingerpele 0]

And players around Rooney, I would argue he makes the players around him better, his overall performance and team work is generally very high.

Players like Lampard are the ones I think benefit from the better players around them.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]

Here''s one for you then -

 

Rooney or Morison?

[/quote]Can''t I just have Cody?

[jed exodous 0]

Anyone care to start the Rooney is world class debate again???

 

He had a 3 good chances tonight, and world class players step up and help their team through on nights like tonight. 

 

Hes now got 1 goal in open play (against the Romanian team in Uniteds group) since United beat Chelsea 3-1 on 18th September...

[BW 0]

Jed you''re right. Another overrated player along side Bradley Johnson

[jed exodous 0]

[quote user="BW"]Jed you''re right. Another overrated player along side Bradley Johnson[/quote]

 

Er

 

Have I missed something about Bradley Johnson?  I thought hes been doing pretty well this season?

[Gingerpele 0]

If Rooney can''t be classed as World Class, then only three players can.

[Shack Attack 0]

Who?

[Gingerpele 0]

Messi, Ronaldo and Xavi.

I''m not saying Rooney is the 4th best player in the world, but after those three (who in my opinion are a class above everyone else) there is a large group, in which Rooney should be included, doesn''t matter how many goals he''s not scored in open play since September, he hasn''t forgotten how to play football. His main weakness seems to be he does this, he has a few months every now and then when he doesn''t score as many.

I''m actually more and more starting to think the term ''World class'' gets used far too much, RVP gets described as world class quite often, but is he? When he plays, Arsenal win and score more than when he doesn''t, but thats mainly because he''s their best finisher, he''s a great player but not world class. So many of his goals are created by Walcott, Gervinho, Arteta, last season Nasri and Fabregas etc etc. Messi and Ronaldo for example score a lot more solo goals, all three are great finishers, but Messi and Ronaldo just have an extra something that RVP (and Rooney) don''t have.

I probably wouldn''t call Rooney world class, but then the more I think about it, its only those three that I would call it.

[Shack Attack 0]

I agree that the term ''world class'' gets used too frequently. If you are picking a World XI plus Subs (I guess you would go with seven?) to play an intergalactic friendly against Mars the players you would pick can be termed world class. Everyone else is just good, bad or indifferent. It is a fairly arbirary measure and might mean that some players who are on the verge of the World XI miss out but at least it stops the term being overused.